• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Microsoft gaming chief calls for industry-wide game preservation

Andodalf

Member
Oct 20, 2013
6,516
9,940
965
24
Earth
How is Analogue allowed to release FPGA retro consoles without any sort of licensing at all? Couldn't Sony and MS do the same for physical disc owners? I thought, so long as the game itself is not put up for sale, licensing is not an issue. Am I wrong here?

Imagine if MS released a "function update" for the Series X that will play the rest of your 360 and Original Xbox library, perfect or not perfect. No store involved. Isn't that how the 360 did BC? 360 had 500 Original Xbox games playable, including license heavy games. Heck, I'd love for Sony to release a new mini PS3 console that is 100% BC with PS2/PS1. I'm sure parts would perhaps be cheaper for the "emotion engine" and such. I guess a company would really need to be committed, I admit it require alot of work.
That’s just not how their BC works. Not even the og emulation on the 360. They’ve always had games get repackaged in new formats for the emulator. When you put a disk in rn all it does is check to make sure it’s that game, and then download the new game package from their servers. They can’t make those new packages and let you download them without new licensing agreements.
 
  • Thoughtful
  • Like
Reactions: Topher and urmie

TwiztidElf

Member
Mar 5, 2005
3,277
923
1,625
Can we start with Outrun Online Arcade please Phil?
Or Project Gotham Racing 2? (greatest racing game ever made).
 
Last edited:

urmie

Member
Aug 26, 2018
280
455
375
That’s just not how their BC works. Not even the og emulation on the 360. They’ve always had games get repackaged in new formats for the emulator. When you put a disk in rn all it does is check to make sure it’s that game, and then download the new game package from their servers. They can’t make those new packages and let you download them without new licensing agreements.

Ah ok, thanks for that. I've been seeking answers on this. That makes more sense, kinda really wish for an "all-in-one" from any company.
 

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
785
1,065
550
Chile
But they just shut down their BC program. Where's the logic?
Licenses. There's only so much they can do with licenses owners. Some games were published by companies that even today they no longer exist, so it would be legally impossible to emulate them.

There's also the music and cars licensing, where some games use music or car models that are no longer licensed to the game publisher/developer and that also comprises a whole lot of legal mazes and paperwork that, in the end, it depends 100% on the owners of those assets (you know....record labels, car brands, etc).

Emulation is the "easy" part. Licensing is a bitch. =/
 
Last edited:

urmie

Member
Aug 26, 2018
280
455
375
Didn't they just delist forza 7? Why can't they renew licenses for old games? They have infinite money after all.
You can still buy the physical versions and they work without issue. Forza games delist after 5 years normally and they give plenty of notice ahead of time including a final discount.
 
Last edited:

Excess

Member
Dec 8, 2020
930
1,524
365
I understand what he's saying, but if a certain paradigm is working for you, you will do anything you can to protect and maintain it. Both Sony and Nintendo have zero reason to provide extra value to the consumer, and I'm not saying that cynically; I'm saying that reasonably.
 

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
785
1,065
550
Chile
Maybe MS can preserve legacy PC programs like Microsoft Word 2007?
They can and have. That's what virtual machines are for. You can use Windows XP with Word 2007 on new computers via virtual machines, since Word 2007 uses some REALLY old APIs that are no longer supported on new OSs.
 

Umbasaborne

Member
Dec 21, 2020
2,247
3,940
420
I really wish jim would do something about ps3 preservation other than shitty streaming. Its a damn shame that we cant play ps one games on ps4 or ps5 like we could on ps3. And the list of availible ps2 games is pultry at best. Sony can do so much better with this stuff, its a shame they cant be fucking assed to
 

kingfey

Banned
Jul 6, 2021
3,510
4,562
480
This is why I like PC. All of the games that have been released on the service is there. I am not tied to a stupid brand, which refuses to support their old games.

Thnx Phill for doing BC. Now i can finally play some of my OG xbox games on x1, and future series console.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrAspirino

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Dec 25, 2019
12,132
23,333
1,045
Prague, Czech Republic
They can and have. That's what virtual machines are for. You can use Windows XP with Word 2007 on new computers via virtual machines, since Word 2007 uses some REALLY old APIs that are no longer supported on new OSs.
You can run 2007 on W10, my father sure does that. Hell fucking ancient MS Works....*cough* works. The compatibility tab is amazing thing in Windows.
 

01011001

Gold Member
Dec 4, 2018
8,649
13,512
750
How is Analogue allowed to release FPGA retro consoles without any sort of licensing at all?

because the FPGA consoles use already released and sold cartridges. The consoles also don't come with any games, it's just a piece of hardware

backwards compatibility on Xbox requires the games to be modified and repackaged, making them legally NEW releases that need to renew their licenses if needed and need to have the actually owner of the IP/Game to be on board

THEY COULD make all Xbox games compatible if they somehow made an emulator that can play every game directly from the disc with no modding of the games needed.
that would be 100% impossible on Xbox One/One X, it is doable on Series X|S but it would be a lot of addition work
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: urmie

Hendrick's

Member
Jan 7, 2014
9,986
18,001
1,075
632 games out of 2154 have been made backward compatible. Hard to believe there's not a single game out of 1522 remaining that they couldn't include. Very hard to believe.
They aren’t all worth saving. There are still a few notable exclusions though. I wonder if we might not see a few more trickle out alongside their remakes or sequels. At least for the Xbox published games that are not tied to car or sport licenses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr Moose

kingfey

Banned
Jul 6, 2021
3,510
4,562
480
because the FPGA consoles use already released and sold cartridges.

backwards compatibility on Xbox requires the games to be modified and repackaged, making them legally NEW releases that need to renew their licenses if needed and need to have the actually owner of the IP/Game to be on board
They think its easy to port the game to the new console.

The moment MS does that, they will get sued by the owners of the game.

Here is what stopping MS.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Strider Highwind

Andodalf

Member
Oct 20, 2013
6,516
9,940
965
24
Earth
Ah ok, thanks for that. I've been seeking answers on this. That makes more sense, kinda really wish for an "all-in-one" from any company.
Brute forcing emulation would be an alternative that could play any game, but is really heavy on the CPU. 360 and PS3 emulation is still imperfect with really great pc dedicated CPUs, let alone console APUs.
 
Oct 24, 2017
1,182
2,134
475
Preservation should be a priority for all of them.

The other day I was just thinking about the hoops I'd have to jump through just to play Skies of Arcadia. Shouldn't have to be that difficult to access software in 2021.
 
Jun 2, 2017
1,680
1,899
505
Preservation should be a priority for all of them.

The other day I was just thinking about the hoops I'd have to jump through just to play Skies of Arcadia. Shouldn't have to be that difficult to access software in 2021.
Skies or Arcadia.....damn you took me back to some good memories, about to go watch some vids on youtube and trip through memory lane lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: Little Chicken

RafterXL

Member
Oct 24, 2017
351
746
395
But they just shut down their BC program. Where's the logic?
Damn, this is a horrible attempt at a "gotcha". Literally the single best console BC on the planet, by a large margin, and you wanna pull this shit over licensing issues? You just made his entire point, btw, that it needs to be an industry wide thing, which would make significantly easier for them to add the remaining games they are missing or, at the very least, keep these issues from happening in the future.

Or you know, you could just read the article instead of trying to be the first shitpost in a thread.
My point stands. MS choose to run BC by changing the game software. And you need publisher agreement to change the software.
Your point is terrible. First off BC doesn't change the game software, it emulates it. The games that aren't on the platform are missing due to licensing issues, not because they need publisher permission due to changing code. Even boosted games, games that get resolution increases, and HDR aren't touched from their original state. Publisher's rights are exactly the same on XSX and PS5.

Second your PS4 example is strange because XBO games ALL (sans Kinect) work and all take advantage of new hardware, which means there are no negatives compared to Sony's approach. We all know which approach is better, let's not pretend otherwise.

Bonus round, did you know that you can play MORE Playststion games on the Xbox Series of consoles than you can on the PS4 or PS5? Double bonus, you can also play more Nintendo games on the XSS/X than on the Switch.
 

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
5,239
5,652
735
Would it not be prudent to make an offical emulator for original xbox and 360 that worked on them series consoles. I am sure Microsoft can do that and then we can all use our discs of the games we still own
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr Moose and TLZ

GHG

Member
Nov 9, 2006
27,329
44,818
1,995
Based on some recent discussions here in not sure people want to play old games anyway.

Not sure what people will do without battlepasses, xp bars filling up, cosmetics to unlock and buy. There aren't even any trophies and achievements, how will you feel the awesome without the popups telling you that you are?

Play old games? It would all be for nothing.
 
  • Like
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Topher and Esppiral

TLZ

Member
Oct 20, 2015
12,318
18,584
1,070
Sydney
There's something I still don't understand though. How come we can play every PS4 and Xbox One game without licensing issues even though they're BC? Why can't they do with older gens what they do with PS4 and Xbox One?
 

K2D

Member
May 31, 2021
277
313
285
From "Open up your libraries in the name of preservation" - to "make your libraries available on all platforms (most importantly ours)".

It'd be cool though if game companies layed off of "seize and desist"ing mods and pro bono fan releases.
 

zaanan

Member
Sep 24, 2019
473
637
355
psnprofiles.com
632 games out of 2154 have been made backward compatible. Hard to believe there's not a single game out of 1522 remaining that they couldn't include. Very hard to believe.
Right? Like MS doesn’t have an army of lawyers and more money than God, either of which would be more than enough to make it happen. But no - “golly gee, those darn licensing issues are just too hard to solve!”
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: GAFfe machine
Mar 23, 2018
9,858
12,227
815
Right? Like MS doesn’t have an army of lawyers and more money than God, either of which would be more than enough to make it happen. But no - “golly gee, those darn licensing issues are just too hard to solve!”

Easily solvable with emulators. they could provide a open source emulator all those problems are fixed tommorow.

Until then preservation arguments are just a meme.
 

Flabagast

Member
Feb 24, 2021
557
1,197
335
Yep, so we would not have shit-tier companies like Rockstar delisting originals for worse versions
 

Impotaku

Member
Jul 26, 2014
3,127
2,798
670
Leeds / UK
The biggest problem now is online games, once they close the servers devs are like oops sorry thanks for playing enjoy your new drinks coaster. When online games cease they should do what chunsoft did all the way back on the gamecube.

A little known online rpg on gamecube called homeland used to have online servers that allowed you to do the online story part of the game but eventually they had to close them down but in the final few days of the service a dev from chunsoft came online & started playing in loads of user games telling all the players they met a secret keyword when typed into the game unlocked direct lan to lan connection mode so when the servers went down players could still play online & lose none of the features of the game. Modern consoles should allow something similar, when they announce they are stopping online support make & release a patch for thr game to work in lan mode with content been transferred from server side to console for games that use that method. Far too many games already on multiple systems have esentially been lost because they need online servers to start up.
 

xiseerht

Member
Nov 25, 2015
350
531
485
If you are a gamer , how in the world would you think this is a bad thing ? So many classic games that I would love to play in 2021 that I can't unless I go and find a ROM somewhere. But of course , you aren't allowed to ask anyone for a great rom site because that is illegal . That is what Phil is talking about it. And the legal side of things are screwing things up for all of us. Remember, just a few weeks ago , Metal Gear Solid HD collection had to be removed from the digital stores so that they can clear up some old license things.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Kssio_Aug and Vasto

xiseerht

Member
Nov 25, 2015
350
531
485
I would love to pay someone or some digital store $10 bucks to play Cadillacs & Dinosaurs on my Xbox or PS5. And there is not legal way for me to do that. It is annoying and there are maybe 40 to 50 games I would love to play again.

 

Umbasaborne

Member
Dec 21, 2020
2,247
3,940
420
Any idea why fear 1 cant be made availible digitally? Im dying to Play it again, but not bad enough to spend 30-60 bucks on an ebay copy
 

BlackTron

Member
Jun 30, 2016
2,261
2,657
510
That's really cool, though ironically MS is the only company that has removed a game from my account without a trace that can no longer be purchased (Turtles in Time).

"Game preservation"
 
  • Like
Reactions: kingwingin
Oct 16, 2017
1,855
3,055
445
They can and have. That's what virtual machines are for. You can use Windows XP with Word 2007 on new computers via virtual machines, since Word 2007 uses some REALLY old APIs that are no longer supported on new OSs.
You CAN, my point is that Microsoft had ceased support. And official support is the entire argument in this thread.

Because if you are talking about third party emulators, then there is no point having this thread at all.
 

GriffinCorp

Member
Aug 5, 2013
314
281
770
Okay why can't Microsoft just have a multi laser disc reader, so the console could read discs from the OG/360/One? I know PS3 basically had a PS2 inside, why can't they just do this again? I know costs but honestly it can't add that much on. If this was done, could they stop worrying about licensing? Digital would have licensing issues.
 

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
785
1,065
550
Chile
Then make official emulators and push it on PC.
Would it not be prudent to make an offical emulator for original xbox and 360 that worked on them series consoles. I am sure Microsoft can do that and then we can all use our discs of the games we still own
There's something I still don't understand though. How come we can play every PS4 and Xbox One game without licensing issues even though they're BC? Why can't they do with older gens what they do with PS4 and Xbox One?
Okay why can't Microsoft just have a multi laser disc reader, so the console could read discs from the OG/360/One? I know PS3 basically had a PS2 inside, why can't they just do this again? I know costs but honestly it can't add that much on. If this was done, could they stop worrying about licensing? Digital would have licensing issues.
Sylvester Stallone Facepalm GIF


L I C E N S E S

PS4 games running on PS5 are a thing because Sony literally made a "mock PS4" with their BC mode. Xbox One games on Xbox Series are a thing because of the very design of Xbox One games: they're literally contained within virtual machines. That's why they can be released untouched on any future Xbox console and be played by just downloading a VM profile.

Both console licenses were for games under a VERY specific platform and under VERY specific conditions. That's why emulation is still illegal in most platforms.
If you are a gamer , how in the world would you think this is a bad thing ? So many classic games that I would love to play in 2021 that I can't unless I go and find a ROM somewhere. But of course , you aren't allowed to ask anyone for a great rom site because that is illegal . That is what Phil is talking about it. And the legal side of things are screwing things up for all of us. Remember, just a few weeks ago , Metal Gear Solid HD collection had to be removed from the digital stores so that they can clear up some old license things.
The Office Reaction GIF

You CAN, my point is that Microsoft had ceased support. And official support is the entire argument in this thread.

Because if you are talking about third party emulators, then there is no point having this thread at all.
Nope.

The entire argument in this thread is game preservation and all the legal bullshit that's impeding it. Support for older games and software ended years ago and we all acknowledge that. We're talking about LEGALLY having the ability to run software on a platform that they weren't designed for, not if they're supported or not.

Are you THAT dense?


And yes, as Phil said, we need this to be an industry-wide thing for it to work, otherwise it would be relegated to PC (since it's an "open" platform) with VERY dubious legal status.