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[Thirty7ven]

Smartshift is what transfers unused power from CPU to GPU and vice versa. The variable clocks are something different.

Either way we will know who made the better choices when the prices are announced and H2H come about.

 

[tryDEATH]

Smartshift is what transfers unused power from CPU to GPU and vice versa. The variable clocks are something different.

Either way we will know who made the better choices when the prices are announced and H2H come about.

SmartShift is also instrumental in gauging temperatures which determines how hard either the CPU or GPU can be pushed and to what clocks. It is the overarching system of that determines the Variable Clocks.

AMD Details Renoir: The Ryzen Mobile 4000 Series 7nm APU Uncovered

www.anandtech.com

 

[Kumomeme]

SmartShift is also instrumental in gauging temperatures which determines how hard either the CPU or GPU can be pushed and to what clocks. It is the overarching system of that determines the Variable Clocks.

AMD Details Renoir: The Ryzen Mobile 4000 Series 7nm APU Uncovered

www.anandtech.com

the smartshift use in ps5 is not the same one used on laptop...on ps5 is based on workload not temperature like in laptop.

 

[tryDEATH]

the smartshift use in ps5 is not the same one used on laptop...on ps5 is based on workload not temperature like in laptop.

We know variable clocks are in the PS5. Variable clocks are used in systems with thermal limits or else they would have fixed performance. Workload determines thermals and SmartShift in PS5 is determined by workload. Therefore SmartShift is the overarching system that will shift power based on requirements of the variable clocks to its thermal limit.

It is the controller that determines how much power goes where, with in thermal limits.

This is an extremely simple concept to understand, yet everyone keeps making it out like SmartShift will just shift power to the CPU and GPU while ignoring thermals when its solely responsible for the output of the console. What do you guys think will control the variability of the clocks, there has to be a "thermostat" that will trigger when to clock higher and when to lower it and that is all encompassed in SmartShift its a full suit, it is an additional layer that optimizes the variability of the system and its thermals.

 

[Kumomeme]

We know variable clocks are in the PS5. Variable clocks are used in systems with thermal limits or else they would have fixed performance. Workload determines thermals and SmartShift in PS5 is determined by workload. Therefore SmartShift is the overarching system that will shift power based on requirements of the variable clocks to its thermal limit.

It is the controller that determines how much power goes where, with in thermal limits.

This is an extremely simple concept to understand, yet everyone keeps making it out like SmartShift will just shift power to the CPU and GPU while ignoring thermals when its solely responsible for the output of the console. What do you guys think will control the variability of the clocks, there has to be a "thermostat" that will trigger when to clock higher and when to lower it and that is all encompassed in SmartShift its a full suit, it is an additional layer that optimizes the variability of the system and its thermals.

well as said by cerny thermal is one of reason it being used..but on ps5 the clock shift is not due solely to thermal, but workload in lias with thermal controll, compared to laptop where it kick to avoid heat throttling, as per my understanding. Probably Sony need throw different name to avoid confusion. Correct me if im wrong...this thing can get confusing.

 

[cormack12]

Another so called expert thinking he knows more than console engineers and game developers. Remember this? "Microsoft Chief Staff for Devices and Studios Group Aaron Greenburg also commenting in his Twitter feed telling one fan that “You realize that you see every game in 1080p output, right?”. Later Greenburg clarified his comments by saying that he knows that upconversion isn’t the same thing has native rendering in 1080p ". Or can you remember the Power of the Cloudz? What happened? MS spokespersons have a habbit of talking nonsense. But thats the class difference in Sony and Nintendo that they don't need to stoop to MS level of refrencing other companies hardware or software.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you rephrase it without all the crazy commentary.

 

[Kagey K]

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you rephrase it without all the crazy commentary.

You might be asking a bit much of them. I’ll be interested to see if they can compose a coherent response.

 

[kuncol02]

the smartshift use in ps5 is not the same one used on laptop...on ps5 is based on workload not temperature like in laptop.

No laptop smartshift works on same principle as in PS5. It underclocks CPU when you have GPU bound application to give more power to graphic card without exceeding designed power consumption. It's not thermal based.

 

[pyrocro]

the smartshift use in ps5 is not the same one used on laptop...on ps5 is based on workload not temperature like in laptop.

Is that so, where is the quote for this Rad claim.

 

[rnlval]

Microsoft opted to keep its console's clock rates fixed, Sony went with the bold choice of using variable frequencies for both CPU and GPU, a decision that made the PS5's 10.28 TFLOPs figure feel misleading according to our own colleagues from Hardware as it only refers to the 'best-case scenarios' when there is no downclocking involved.

In a new interview published on Spanish site Xataka, Director of Program Management for Xbox Series X Jason Ronald said that Microsoft could have easily used the same approach to reach a higher theoretical TFLOPS figure, but that would have made it harder for developers to optimize their games.


The Microsoft executive also suggested that the mere I/O speed of the Xbox Series X (which is inferior to that of the PlayStation 5, according to the official specifications) doesn't tell the full story.

Microsoft: We Could Have Used Variable Clocks for Xbox Series X, But We're Not Interested in TFLOPS Numbers

Microsoft's Jason Ronald said that the Xbox Series X could have used variable clocks like the PS5, but the company isn't looking to boast higher TFLOPS.

wccftech.com

Hmmm interesting.

MS could have given the game programmers the option for fixed or variable clock frequency modes.

 

[Kumomeme]

No laptop smartshift works on same principle as in PS5. It underclocks CPU when you have GPU bound application to give more power to graphic card without exceeding designed power consumption. It's not thermal based.

from what i understand, since the ps5 already has enhanced cooling set and power consumption budget, the clock will varied based on workload

“Rather than look at the actual temperature of the silicon die, we look at the activities that the GPU and CPU are performing and set the frequencies on that basis—which makes everything deterministic and repeatable,”

“While we’re at it, we also use AMD’s SmartShift technology and send any unused power from the CPU to the GPU, so it can squeeze out a few more pixels.”

this is what cerny said during the presentation

which is, basically what amd smartshift does...hmm thanks for clarification

 

[Kumomeme]

Is that so, where is the quote for this Rad claim.

i just confused..nevermind...lot of people including me seems to assume this stuff is for thermal control

 

[Kagey K]

i just confused..nevermind...lot of people including me seems to assume this stuff is for thermal control

Assume= ass u me.

How can you state an assumption as a fact?

Why doesn’t anyone ask more about it? Instead of everyone running off assumptions?

 

[rnlval]

the smartshift use in ps5 is not the same one used on laptop...on ps5 is based on workload not temperature like in laptop.

AMD's mobile Ryzen APU works on workload within the power design limit and a safe temperature limit.

My mobile Ryzen laptop (HP Envy X360 15 inch, shipped with 65 watts PSU) doesn't reach 80 degrees C despite OEM's imposed 25 watts power design setting. I would need 3rd party Ryzen control tool to override OEM's power design setting e.g. 35 watts. My other laptop with 8870M GPU can reach 90C temps.

 

[rnlval]

You're confused, SmartShift exists on top of Sony's approach with clocks. MS very likely could not make use of it because their clocks are capped.

What I personally take issue with in this interview, is that Jason's talking point are openly misinformed.
This isn't to shit on XSX's solution, but he clearly does not understand the competition's (he's a Program Manager, he deals with inter-department communication), and his points are a bit fanboyish.
I wish I knew Spanish to read the original, but Wccftech has a tendency to blow things out of proportion.

XSX CPU has 3.6 Ghz for 16 threads and 3.8 Ghz for 8 threads modes, hence variable clock speed capability is already built into XSX.

 

[Kumomeme]

Assume= ass u me.

How can you state an assumption as a fact?

Why doesn’t anyone ask more about it? Instead of everyone running off assumptions?

here is why we need discussion..so we can tell and correct each other..i interested more in this stuff than console wars comment section

i just said what i read on various place including that other site..people still fighting over this features...pardon my ass u me hahaha

 

[Tulipanzo]

XSX CPU has 3.6 Ghz for 16 threads and 3.8 Ghz for 8 threads modes, hence variable clock speed capability is already built into XSX.

These are two different fixed, it's evidently not variable.
My point is they can't be let run free (as Jason seems to imply) without massively reworking the system to monitor power draw and manage the extra cooling.

 

[rnlval]

It's easy to not be interested in the teraflops game if you have more than an RTX Titan when your console uses raytracing

RTX Titan also has fixed function TFLOPS with it's RT cores.

 

[rnlval]

These are two different fixed, it's evidently not variable.
My point is they can't be let run free (as Jason seems to imply) without massively reworking the system to monitor power draw and manage the extra cooling.

The purpose of Smartshift is to reallocate CPU's unused power budget and shift it to the GPU within the overall APU power design and within the safety temperature limit. Extra cooling argument is not required.

XSX CPU's two modes are based on workload with the assumption that non-SMT will use less power when compared to SMT version.

 

[Tulipanzo]

LOL, where is the quote of Sony is not using smart shift and it's their custom solution. those mavericks what can't they do.
I'm sure it does not exist prove me wrong, please.

Of course you think Sony engineered custom hardware to control the complex CPU AMD made and put the AMD engineers to shame, it was so easy for them, sony should just start making CPUs to show intel and AMD how it's done.

Are you ok? You seem very upset for some reason.

You misread my comment, the PS5 is utilizing both, one is a power draw monitor, the other is an APU functionality.
Sony did engineer a "model SOC" to monitor power draw vs. an ideal PS5, and they are also using AMD SmartShift on top of that.

This feels very stupid, because I specifically pointed out that MS's having capped clocks, it couldn't really exist there. Hypothetically, had MS gone with a similar approach (managing the thermals etc.), they could have used it too...

 

[Tulipanzo]

The purpose of Smartshift is to reallocate CPU's unused power budget and shift it to the GPU within the overall APU power design and within the safety temperature limit. Extra cooling argument is not required.

XSX CPU's two modes are based on workload with the assumption that non-SMT will use less power when compared to SMT version.

Yes, exactly, and the XSX clocks aren't variable here, they can be at two different fixed modes, and the GPU is also capped at 1.825GHz.
AMD SmartShift couldn't work on XSX as it is now, but could if clocks weren't capped (and the XSX APU supported the function, since it's seemingly not on every RDNA2 card).

The issue is the variable clocks managed by the power controller, which are a different thing from AMD SmartShift (an hardware functionality). XSX couldn't use those (as Jason seems to imply), without a major reworking on power monitoring, cooling, and on-chip logic checks. This may also make the system way too expensive to cool, since XSX APU is bigger.
Thermal management given their design goals is a way more likely reason this idea wasn't pursued, rather than what Jason (who isn't a tech guy) said here.

 

[Tulipanzo]

Or Just sell it at a lower price, LOL.
Funny how you pay more for 2080ti than a 1660ti. But you know that lower TF number will get them in the end.
I'll give you one guess on which one makes the most money for Nvidia.
This stuff is not hard.

The issue here is costumers may very well expect the 4TF system to be considerably cheaper than it can realistically be, given their marketing's focus on 12TF. Add the fact Lockhart may get as few as 3 months of marketing, vs XSX 9 (and more as Scarlett) come August.
It could end up being very confusing, and if I were MS I would have shown both side-by-side from the start.

There's also the issue that, unlike on PCs, there may not be a market for obviously inferior hardware in consoles, where people traditionally buy high-quality hardware to last them for a whole gen.
Are people going to jump on yet another 1080p box, for the rather nebulous concept of cut-down "next-gen features". when their old box plays the same games?

 

[ZywyPL]

XSX CPU's two modes are based on workload with the assumption that non-SMT will use less power when compared to SMT version.

Not really, XBX will have two modes that aren't dynamic, but fixed, and the devs will have to chose if they need to use SMT or not, depending if their games will require 8 or more threads, but once set the CPU won't change that on the fly. IT serves completely different purpose than PS5's SmartShift. It does allow to bump the clock to 3.8GHz when SMT is Off tho.

 

[M1chl]

the smartshift use in ps5 is not the same one used on laptop...on ps5 is based on workload not temperature like in laptop.

Watch this, it's nVidia, but it's basically same thing, but as shown, it does not work that well:

You still need CPU for draw calls, which is somehow not rectified.

 

[pyrocro]

Are you ok? You seem very upset for some reason.

You misread my comment, the PS5 is utilizing both, one is a power draw monitor, the other is an APU functionality.
Sony did engineer a "model SOC" to monitor power draw vs. an ideal PS5, and they are also using AMD SmartShift on top of that.

This feels very stupid, because I specifically pointed out that MS's having capped clocks, it couldn't really exist there. Hypothetically, had MS gone with a similar approach (managing the thermals etc.), they could have used it too...

yes so upset that I'm LOLing. . oh boy you guys.

You're not articulating a real point. let me repeat the question you don't want to answer.

LOL, where is the quote of Sony is not using smart shift and it's their custom solution.

Where is your source, you don't seem to understand how any of it works and I'm questioning your source.
JUST provide your source.
why is that so hard?

The issue here is costumers may very well expect the 4TF system to be considerably cheaper than it can realistically be, given their marketing's focus on 12TF. Add the fact Lockhart may get as few as 3 months of marketing, vs XSX 9 (and more as Scarlett) come August.
It could end up being very confusing, and if I were MS I would have shown both side-by-side from the start.

None of what you'er saying makes sense.
There are just more 1080 displays compared to 4k and any 4k TV support 1080p meaning you get everyone included. seem like a smart business decision to me.

There's also the issue that, unlike on PCs, there may not be a market for obviously inferior hardware in consoles, where people traditionally buy high-quality hardware to last them for a whole gen.
Are people going to jump on yet another 1080p box, for the rather nebulous concept of cut-down "next-gen features". when their old box plays the same games?

if you have a 1080 display only or a 2nd display which is 1080, why would one by a 4k console?
why would you want an inferior iPhone to the flagship, I'm sure the cheaper models sell way more and Apple fans don't seem to get confused.
why would any other average joe/jane get confused for 2 next-gen Xbox vs the multitude of phones on the market?
Frankly, if you have a smartphone you undertand this concept, it's not new or complicated even sony is doing it in a different way.

You don't seem to get It's all about making money if it will cost them more to make and ship series S MS will simple not do it. (they exist solely to make a profit)

Also you do realize the XSs(cheaper box)is Faster than all the previous-gen consoles and plays next-gen games. All of this for the same price or cheaper than current-gen flag ship consoles.
I wonder which choice a rational person will get if they are in the market for a new console or just a replacement. I wonder(not really) but I wonder?

don't forget your source for sony smart shift implementation, please.

 

[Leyasu]

These are two different fixed, it's evidently not variable.
My point is they can't be let run free (as Jason seems to imply) without massively reworking the system to monitor power draw and manage the extra cooling.

But do they really need to??

They seem more than happy and quite confident in their choices already. The thing is already a beast.

 

[pyrocro]

i just confused..nevermind...lot of people including me seems to assume this stuff is for thermal control

I'm sure thermals are taken into account but to get the fast response required they also need to do some prediction(AI stuff) based on their understanding of how the chip will respond to workloads.
it's also a safe guess that there is a lot more telemetry data used for it to be effective.

AMD SmartShift Technology Explained
AMD SmartShift enabled notebooks feature a hardware boosting interface between the Processor and Graphics with machine learning algorithms to automatically boost performance where workloads demand it.
This interface links the common Infinity Control Fabric blocks together so that the CPU and GPU react quickly to different workloads.

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/smartshift

 

[cormack12]

There's also the issue that, unlike on PCs, there may not be a market for obviously inferior hardware in consoles, where people traditionally buy high-quality hardware to last them for a whole gen.

The 'secondary console' market is arguably more lucrative than the main console market. Especially with price sensitivity. Hell, even if it is a bit pricey, if the games and gimmicks are there NIntendo have shown it with the Wii and Switch. If you havent got a PC and you see a Lockhart for £199 (speculative price) enabling you to go and play Forza, Gears and a few other high profile xbox games, then it's going to look appealing especially when Nintendo aren't really making any moves to change up what they have at the moment.

And your point is moot when you look at the last gen refresh of the PS4 Pro

 

[mckmas8808]

But do they really need to??

They seem more than happy and quite confident in their choices already. The thing is already a beast.

And it'll be fun to see both companies getting the most out of their console designs.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

yes so upset that I'm LOLing. . oh boy you guys.

You're not articulating a real point. let me repeat the question you don't want to answer.

Where is your source, you don't seem to understand how any of it works and I'm questioning your source.
JUST provide your source.

He's told you twice Sony is using both

Why is reading hard for you?

 

[semicool]

the smartshift use in ps5 is not the same one used on laptop...on ps5 is based on workload not temperature like in laptop.

Right it works on power budget which is planned based on thermals given certain workloads amongst other things

 

[pyrocro]

He's told you twice Sony is using both

Why is reading hard for you?

He himself is not a source, Einstein didn't say gravitational waves because I said so.

Got it?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

He himself is not a source, Einstein didn't say gravitational waves because I said so.

Got it?

 

[Leyasu]

And it'll be fun to see both companies getting the most out of their console designs.

It will be. Next gen is gonna be great on both consoles.

 

[mckmas8808]

Perfect response. People act like Cerny didn't just talk about the internal design of the PS5 for an hour.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Perfect response. People act like Cerny didn't just talk about the internal design of the PS5 for an hour.

To be fair that tech talk was pretty complicated and I'm sure there are many here who didn't understand half of what he said. I agree with the sentiment that there are those who want to understand and there are others who don't want to understand.

As for me I didn't understand the whole thing but I like discussing it here because it helps clarify alot of things for me. Like the explanations of the power management system for example.

 

[pyrocro]

that was not too hard, was it?
I'm not sure why you guys take issue with providing sources.
All he is doing is describing how smart shift works in that video. (it needs the telemetry data for it to work, its all over the smart shift page)
At no time does he say our custom solution.
AMD's own promotional page says thermal was never enough, what else you think they are talking about.

so either AMD made an incomplete technology that would have never worked or Cerny is describing How Smart Shift is meant to work and leased out the tech to DELL.
Which do you think it is?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

that was not too hard, was it?
I'm not sure why you guys take issue with providing sources.
All he is doing is describing how smart shift works in that video. (it needs the telemetry data for it to work, its all over the smart shift page)
At no time does he say our custom solution.
AMD's own promotional page says thermal was never enough, what else you think they are talking about.

so either AMD made an incomplete technology that would have never worked or Cerny is describing How Smart Shift is meant to work and leased out the tech to DELL.
Which do you think it is?

If you wanted a source on whether Sony was using the two then you should have said that instead of arguing in bad faith.

On to the actual video. Cerny talks about their own variable solution and then immediately afterwards talks about SmartShift as an additional piece of tech they implemented. That's pretty clear confirmation that SmartShift is separate.

 

[pyrocro]

If you wanted a source on whether Sony was using the two then you should have said that instead of arguing in bad faith.

LOL, where is the quote of Sony is not using smart shift and it's their custom solution.

What more you want me to say.

JUST provide your source.

oh I did say that.

On to the actual video. Cerny talks about their own variable solution and then immediately afterwards talks about SmartShift as an additional piece of tech they implemented. That's pretty clear confirmation that SmartShift is separate.

Saying your using smart shift to move the power around does not negate the other parts clearly visible in the slide I provided, it's the same process.
DELL is going to use it along with other Laptop Manufactures.
ITS HOW SMARTSHIFT WORKS.
If it does not have the parts Cerny highlighted before saying "smartshift" It WILL NOT WORK.

Look at the diagram again you will see it's the same process.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

What more you want me to say.
oh I did say that.



Saying your using smart shift to move the power around does not negate the other parts clearly visible in the slide I provided, it's the same process.
DELL is going to use it along with other Laptop Manufactures.
ITS HOW SMARTSHIFT WORKS.
If it does not have the parts Cerny highlighted before saying "smartshift" It WILL NOT WORK.

Look at the diagram again you will see it's the same process.

No. You wanted a source that Sony wasn't using SmartShift. You were told that wasn't the claim and still double-downed on it. Arguing in bad faith. Only takes a small amount of effort if you want an honest discussion

SmartShift is being used, as per Cerny, to move unused CPU power to the GPU. That's it. The english is pretty much self-explanatory. "while we're doing that [the custom solution], we're also doing this [SmartShift]"

Apparently it's difficult to fathom that Sony decided their own custom solution is more effective for their console that using the one SmartShift provides.

 

[pyrocro]

No. You wanted a source that Sony wasn't using SmartShift. You were told that wasn't the claim and still double-downed on it. Arguing in bad faith. Only takes a small amount of effort if you want an honest discussion

All of this hurt feelings nonsense talk just provide your source.

SmartShift is being used, as per Cerny, to move unused CPU power to the GPU. That's it. The english is pretty much self-explanatory. "while we're doing that [the custom solution], we're also doing this [SmartShift]"

So now you believe smartshift will work without performance data from the CPU and GPU and the power controller.(this is all that is shown in the diagram and he mentions) before saying smartshift.

Apparently it's difficult to fathom that Sony decided their own custom solution is more effective for their console that using the one SmartShift provides.

Your just pretending not to understand now.

The slide is clear smartshift includes all the components Cerny described in the video, with their custom PS5 configuration which then tells/uses smartshift to shift the power.
It's in the slide.

 

[Dnice1]

Regarding PS5's implementation of Smart Shift this quote has stayed in my mind...

There's likely more to discover about how boost will influence game design. Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core.

So Digital Foundry spoke with developer working on PS5 and they are having to throttle the cpu in order to achieve the 10.23TF GPU compute figure. They didn't say these were unused CPU cycles. They said the CPU had to be throttled. Which leaves me to believe if the CPU is at its stated 3.5Ghz then the GPU is not putting out the stated teraflop figure which was the whole point stated by Jason Ronald in the article.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

All of this hurt feelings nonsense talk just provide your source.

I think you need to take a break

So now you believe smartshift will work without performance data from the CPU and GPU and the power controller.(this is all that is shown in the diagram and he mentions) before saying smartshift.

? No. SmartShift is going to require their custom controller. Their custom controller does not require smartshift. That's just a complementary feature they added.

You're just pretending not to understand now.

Less butthurt more facts

The slide is clear smartshift includes all the components Cerny described in the video, with their custom PS5 configuration which then tells/uses smartshift to shift the power.
It's in the slide.

It is in the slide. Cerny was very clear their SmartShift application comes after their own solution. It's literally in the diagram and Cerny's speech.

If their entire solution revolved around SmartShift, Cerny would have said so and not just applied the brand name to one aspect.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Regarding PS5's implementation of Smart Shift this quote has stayed in my mind...



So Digital Foundry spoke with developer working on PS5 and they are having to throttle the cpu in order to achieve the 10.23TF GPU compute figure. They didn't say these were unused CPU cycles. They said the CPU had to be throttled. Which leaves me to believe if the CPU is at its stated 3.5Ghz then the GPU is not putting out the stated teraflop figure which was the whole point stated by Jason Ronald in the article.

Because

It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind

They throttled the CPU to ensure a locked GPU clock speed. That's not the same as saying they had to throttle it back because they couldn't maintain a locked clock speed.

 

[Tulipanzo]

You're not articulating a real point. let me repeat the question you don't want to answer.

Where is your source, you don't seem to understand how any of it works and I'm questioning your source.
JUST provide your source.
why is that so hard?

What you are doing is thinking that variable clocks ARE AMD SmartShift, while they are two different things, both of which Sony is using.

From the Road to PS5, at 36min:

It wouldn't do to run a console slower just because it is in a hot room. So rather than look at the actual temperature of the silicon die, we look at the activities that the GPU and CPU are performing [ie. Power Control] and set the frequencies on that basis, which makes everything deterministic and repeatable.
While we're at it, we also use AMD SmartShift technology, and send any unused power from the CPU to the GPU, so it can squeeze out a few extra pixels.

They are literally two different things in THE most notable image about PS5's TF count.

It gets to a point where if the source is literally the main PS5 tech video, maybe you just don't know what you're talking about...

 

[Tulipanzo]

But do they really need to??

They seem more than happy and quite confident in their choices already. The thing is already a beast.

Yes, this is exactly my point. The XSX is clearly performant, because this was in their design goals for the system.
They couldn't "just use variable clocks", as Jason here seems to imply.

He's not a tech guy, this isn't really a tech focused interview, and Wccftech is known to blow things out of proportions

 

[Tulipanzo]

None of what you'er saying makes sense.
There are just more 1080 displays compared to 4k [This is incorrect, as of 2019, 53.5% of market share belonged to 4K TVs, and that is expected to keep growing] and any 4k TV support 1080p meaning you get everyone included. seem like a smart business decision to me.

if you have a 1080 display only or a 2nd display which is 1080, why would one by a 4k console?
[1) I plan to buy a 4K TV in the future
2) Super-sampling makes the image better
3) The 4K system is the better one
4) The 4K system has had months of marketing, the 1080p system did not
5) I have a 1080p console already, I don't need another one
6) 1080p in 2020 is outdated; the "proper" next-gen systems are 4K]
why would you want an inferior iPhone to the flagship, I'm sure the cheaper models sell way more and Apple fans don't seem to get confused.
why would any other average joe/jane get confused for 2 next-gen Xbox vs the multitude of phones on the market?
[XBox will have 6 XBox SKUs in stores by 2020's end, all playing the same games; they'll actually ship cases with just "XBOX" on them]
Frankly, if you have a smartphone you undertand this concept, it's not new or complicated even sony is doing it in a different way [Sony isn't releasing a gimped system, what? You mean Sony phones?].

Lots of problems, actually.
While there's a good number of 1080p TV users, how many of them are in the market for a next-gen console, at launch? I would expect far fewer than those with 4K TVs. Plus, of those with 1080p TVs, how many legit won't care about 4K for an entire additional gen, or buy a uniquely 1080p box for as long?
I personally know plenty of people who bought a Pro or X1X, despite not owning a 4K TV.

Still, launching a 1080p box is also entering a far more crowded market.
Switch, PS4, X1, X1S, X1SAD are all 1080p devices already. In the XBox's case, they'll play the same games too, for a time.
What's going to sell joe/jane on XSS? You'll have to convince people who already don't care about upgrading their TVs, that faster loading and fps are a big deal. I find that hard to believe.

Your analogy to phones is fairly flawed, because that market is far more varied than the console's one.
Most people buying a console expect a good level of performance for a whole gen, while I personally changed my phone three times since 2013.
Phones also famously confuse tech-illiterate people; ie. people with HDTVs that don't want to upgrade.
I'd also argue that XBox's offer could easily confuse them.
By 2020 they'll have:
- old 1080 xbox
- old 1080 xbox but thinner
- New 1080p xbox
- Old 4k xbox
- New 4k xbox
All with similar names and design language.
I wouldn't be shocked some people may buy an X1X believing it to be better than XSS because the res and TFs are higher (which is obviously wrong).

You don't seem to get It's all about making money if it will cost them more to make and ship series S MS will simple not do it. (they exist solely to make a profit)

What's your source on this? Huge if true

Also you do realize the XSs(cheaper box)is Faster than all the previous-gen consoles and plays next-gen games. All of this for the same price or cheaper than current-gen flag ship consoles.
I wonder which choice a rational person will get if they are in the market for a new console or just a replacement. I wonder(not really) but I wonder?

This isn't really about the tech inside the XSS (that's a whole different topic still).
The issue is that your kind of customer:
1) Wants a next-gen console at launch or near it
2) Doesn't care about the best next-gen tech
3) Doesn't care about next-gen exclusives
4) Will somehow go for the less powerful and least marketed of the two systems

Plus, rational doesn't mean informed.
The XSS has 4TFs, the X1X has 6, so the X1X is a better purchase.
The XSS has 4TFs, the XSX has 12, so the XSS should cost a third as much.
The X1X is a 4K system, so the XSS is worse, and XSX can't be that big of an upgrade since it also does 4K.
I put a [sata] SSD in my system, and it's not that much faster, so the SSD on XSX won't matter.
The X1X looks like a thinner XSX. That means the X1X is the newer system.
Rational! But also massively wrong.

The 'secondary console' market is arguably more lucrative than the main console market. Especially with price sensitivity. Hell, even if it is a bit pricey, if the games and gimmicks are there NIntendo have shown it with the Wii and Switch. If you havent got a PC and you see a Lockhart for £199 (speculative price) enabling you to go and play Forza, Gears and a few other high profile xbox games, then it's going to look appealing especially when Nintendo aren't really making any moves to change up what they have at the moment.

And your point is moot when you look at the last gen refresh of the PS4 Pro

Your assumption there is that MS can break into the "secondary console" market by being cheap.
Your price is extremely low (and irl, seems well below what TW is indicating), but the issue is, the XBox One can be found at that price already, and it hasn't helped at all break into that market.

Switch succeeded because it's library was second to none, and way more consistent than in the WiiU days. It didn't succeed by being a "cheap PS4", but by being its own thing.
Forza, Gears, and Halo are not going to be enough, especially when XSS is literally the "cheap" variant of a more established and better marketed SKU.