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Microsoft will "aggressively challenge" any gov't attempt to spy through Kinect

When the government wants something they can get it. It wasn't just Microsoft giving data there were loads of corporations that were court ordered to share data. You are wasting your time worrying about Microsoft. You should be more interested in why the NSA and other bureaucracies are so interested in your data.
 
ummmm Google stores info. Sony stores info. Apple stores info. Verizon, Sprint, etc. In fact anything you do while connected to the internet is stored somewhere and able to be accessed by someone. You don't want to be "spied on", stay offline. Which, by the way, you can do with both of the Next Gen Consoles. This isn't just a MS issue.

This is an unrealistic expectation and you know it so stop propagating it. See with these other devices I can still use them without having anything be forced on to use it. I can use my cell phone with data, text messages, and phone calls off. You cannot do this with Xbone. It (Kinect) is being forced to stay on (or at the least plugged in) for no reason what so ever.
 
Here's the thing. I'm not likely to stop using my cell, which I'm dependent on for many things, or my laptop, or other things which I have become dependent on like GPS in my car. I cannot stop MS from making Kinect mandatory for Xbox One whether it part of some larger vision for the use of their product or a way to spy on people. What I do have choice in is whether to buy their product or not. There are alternatives. You may not like them, you may like them. At least there is a choice.
 
This is an unrealistic expectation and you know it so stop propagating it. See with these other devices I can still use them without having anything be forced on to use it. I can use my cell phone with data, text messages, and phone calls off. You cannot do this with Xbone. It (Kinect) is being forced to stay on (or at the least plugged in) for no reason what so ever.

Don't fucking buy it?
 
This is an unrealistic expectation and you know it so stop propagating it. See with these other devices I can still use them without having anything be forced on to use it. I can use my cell phone with data, text messages, and phone calls off. You cannot do this with Xbone. It (Kinect) is being forced to stay on (or at the least plugged in) for no reason what so ever.

And what are you going to use your cell phone for with all three of those things off? That's no different than playing the XB1 offline. Talk about being unrealistic. Look, no one is forcing you to buy it. We don't know what options can be turned off yet with the new Kinect. Stop acting like MS is purposefully trying to spy on you.
Yes, there are issues with PRISM, but they are not unique to MS and Kinect.
 
Why are we having the smartphone argument again? This is the new "it's like steam". It's everywhere.
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This is an unrealistic expectation and you know it so stop propagating it. See with these other devices I can still use them without having anything be forced on to use it. I can use my cell phone with data, text messages, and phone calls off. You cannot do this with Xbone. It (Kinect) is being forced to stay on (or at the least plugged in) for no reason what so ever.

Let's follow the silly logic that everyone is using against the Kinect, You pressed a "button" (not a physical on/off switch of course), that told you that your data service was disabled. What assurances do you have that in fact, your phone is not still transmitting data? It's been shown that this is in fact not the case in certain instances. OK, that's fine, but I can shut it down" What assurance do you have that when you power the device down that it's still not running in some capacity? There are clear evidence that supports this happens too. What if you take out the battery (if you have an Android phone) ? Well, maybe the government has a secret secondary battery inside the phone that still allows communication when you power it off. In fact, maybe the reason the iPhone battery isn't removable at all is because theyre even further entwined with the government to ensure that there a low level power state even when people press "turn off" the phone so that they can continue to track data on you? When you're operating in this hazy level of discussion , then it stands to reason that any and every device that has the capability to communicate to the internet is always collecting data on you every single moment it's present (whether on or off).

There will be options to disable sharing, the microphone, etc on the Kinect. MS has already addressed this. The concern people seem to have is that the camera still has to be plugged in to the Xbox which theoretically means that data can still theoretically be shared. If we want to use this crazy logic, then a fucking video games console is the least of our worries.
 
And how about the phones that everyone willingly carries with them in their pockets? Using this logic, cameras and microphones built in and carried by almost everyone is perfect. All with voice recognition and speech detection capabilities even outside of a dedicated phone call. Of course, it's only listening if we press that magical "button", which isn't a physical switch, by the way, for Siri or Google Now to help us find the closest pizza place, right? All other times we have absolute certainty that our conversations and actions over video are not being recorded. If we're going down this path of paranoia, then you should be advocating everyone to cut the cord and stay locked in your basement, because anything and everything you do is being collected.

Christ, the way people view this whole situation of data collection makes Batman using people's cell phones to capture the Joker look tame.

"Come on guys, they're already doing it. What's one more hd camera pointed at your living room that measures your heart rate, skeletal structure, body mass and voice imprint? No biggie."
 
I think this is great advice for anyone worried about Microsoft and their shady deceits of the last few months or so. Not buying the console is the only thing Microsoft will listen to it seems.

Absolutely. People should also not buy Samsung Smart TVs because they do the same things.
 
No shit.
But that's not the argument.

From the originally linked The Verge article:

"Microsoft says it doesn't plan to abuse that power, and claims it couldn't even if it tried. The company told us that the Kinect's cameras and microphones aren't actually recording or transmitting any audio or video data back to Microsoft's servers without the user's explicit consent, and all ambiently collected data is anonymized."

I would like to know exactly what consent options I would have.
 
Don't fucking buy it?

And what are you going to use your cell phone for with all three of those things off? That's no different than playing the XB1 offline. Talk about being unrealistic. Look, no one is forcing you to buy it. We don't know what options can be turned off yet with the new Kinect. Stop acting like MS is purposefully trying to spy on you.
Yes, there are issues with PRISM, but they are not unique to MS and Kinect.

There is plenty of uses of a cell phone that excludes communication, especially if you have a smart phone. But if we look at the facts, Microsoft is not looking very trust worthy. Microsoft was the first into the PRISM program and the first to let the government start grabbing shit. Was it against their will? Probably but they let this go on a long time without saying a single word about it and this is not exclusive to just them. They have been apart of it since 2007, and now all of a sudden the heats on them and they are backtracking and blaming it all on the NSA. I'm not buying it. Same thing with Verizon, they said they weren't handing shit over to the government and come to find out they were handing info out with warrants. Sony is not apart of PRISM so that is just all hearsay until we see evidence..
 
"Come on guys, they're already doing it. What's one more hd camera pointed at your living room that measures your heart rate, skeletal structure, body mass and voice imprint? No biggie."

Damn, you're right. I really hope they don't find out my skeletal structure. I've been hoping to keep that private.

I was only following the prevailing logic to its natural conclusion. If they want to collect your data; they'll do it. Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, whoever won't have any say in that. If you don't feel comfortable with a camera, then that's your prerogative. I just think when you argue that point then you should really be evaluating everything else that you're participating in that's potentially much more damaging. When you do that, your fears will either start to look even more silly and you realize that maybe it's not worth worrying over ... or youll unearth the true extent of the evil government's reach and lock yourself in a basement and cut yourself off completely from the rest of the world. Either way, for the rest of us, the silly discussion should stop.
 
There is plenty of uses of a cell phone that excludes communication, especially if you have a smart phone. But if we look at the facts, Microsoft is not looking very trust worthy. Microsoft was the first into the PRISM program and the first to let the government start grabbing shit. Was it against their will? Probably but they let this go on a long time without saying a single word about it and this is not exclusive to just them.

In all seriousness, it was probably illegal for them to say anything about it.

You can't get a lawful surveillance order and then go blab about it. That's not how these things work.
 
Let's follow the silly logic that everyone is using against the Kinect, You pressed a "button" (not a physical on/off switch of course), that told you that your data service was disabled. What assurances do you have that in fact, your phone is not still transmitting data? It's been shown that this is in fact not the case in certain instances. OK, that's fine, but I can shut it down" What assurance do you have that when you power the device down that it's still not running in some capacity? There are clear evidence that supports this happens too. What if you take out the battery (if you have an Android phone) ? Well, maybe the government has a secret secondary battery inside the phone that still allows communication when you power it off. In fact, maybe the reason the iPhone battery isn't removable at all is because theyre even further entwined with the government to ensure that there a low level power state even when people press "turn off" the phone so that they can continue to track data on you? When you're operating in this hazy level of discussion , then it stands to reason that any and every device that has the capability to communicate to the internet is always collecting data on you every single moment it's present (whether on or off).

There will be options to disable sharing, the microphone, etc on the Kinect. MS has already addressed this. The concern people seem to have is that the camera still has to be plugged in to the Xbox which theoretically means that data can still theoretically be shared. If we want to use this crazy logic, then a fucking video games console is the least of our worries.

A lot of the stuff mentioned here is tin foil hat stuff unless you can show me the evidence.

In all seriousness, it was probably illegal for them to say anything about it.

And they have been caught lying about their data being private. Was it their fault they lied? Yes but that might cause legal issues with the government. Microsoft and NSA got caught with their pants down, they were both lying.
 
Damn, you're right. I really hope they don't find out my skeletal structure. I've been hoping to keep that private.

I was only following the prevailing logic to its natural conclusion. If they want to collect your data; they'll do it. Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, whoever won't have any say in that. If you don't feel comfortable with a camera, then that's your prerogative. I just think when you argue that point then you should really be evaluating everything else that you're participating in that's potentially much more damaging. When you do that, your fears will either start to look even more silly and you realize that maybe it's not worth worrying over something not worth worrying over... or youll unearth the true extent of the evil government's reach and lock yourself in a basement and cut yourself off completely from the rest of the world. Either way, for the rest of us, the silly discussion should stop.

After the past month of actual news stories, you realize the "there is no surveillance conspiracy" nuts look significantly more insane that the folks who recognize prism et al are real issues, right? At this point you're essentially a Birther.
 
Damn, you're right. I really hope they don't find out my skeletal structure. I've been hoping to keep that private.

I was only following the prevailing logic to its natural conclusion. If they want to collect your data; they'll do it. Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, whoever won't have any say in that. If you don't feel comfortable with a camera, then that's your prerogative. I just think when you argue that point then you should really be evaluating everything else that you're participating in that's potentially much more damaging. When you do that, your fears will either start to look even more silly and you realize that maybe it's not worth worrying over ... or youll unearth the true extent of the evil government's reach and lock yourself in a basement and cut yourself off completely from the rest of the world. Either way, for the rest of us, the silly discussion should stop.

You're actually sounding like the crazy one in denial given the revelations of the past few months. I know it might seem hard to admit you might have been wrong in the past with your views but plodding on with the same old rants can't be all that healthy going forward now that the actual truth has come out.
 
This is such a non issue for me.

There are cameras everywhere but people only take offense cuz it's kinect and
sony gaf is just lol.
 
After the past month of actual news stories, you realize the "there is no surveillance conspiracy" nuts look significantly more insane that the folks who recognize prism et al are real issues, right? At this point you're essentially a Birther.

I don't think you understand my point. I'm not saying it doesn't or cannot happen. I'm saying either join the ride or jump off. Either accept the potential that recipients other than the ones you intend to share information with have the capability to track every and anything you do or just cut off completely. I just don't understand why someone would concern themselves with a camera on a video game console in the world that we're currently living in.
 
you'll probably have to consent to it ialongside the day one required update to make the system even work

Yeah, but to what exactly. One time thing? Am I asked to give permissions on various things at various times? Do I have the right at set up to say, no, you cannot collect/share my information?

That's what I meant. The idea there is I must explicitly give permission to them.
 
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not saying it doesn't or cannot happen. I'm saying either join the ride or jump off. Either accept the potential that recipients other than the ones you intend to share information with have the capability to track every and anything you do or just cut off completely. I just don't understand why someone would concern themselves with a camera on a video game console in the world that we're currently living in.

It's almost a perfect plan isn't it? If only it weren't for those darn 'conspiracy' nuts.
 
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not saying it doesn't or cannot happen. I'm saying either join the ride or jump off. Either accept the potential that recipients other than the ones you intend to share information with have the capability to track every and anything you do or just cut off completely. I just don't understand why someone would concern themselves with a camera on a video game console in the world that we're currently living in.
Because unlike personal devices this is a camera in your living room. It's not a personal device, it's a family device. Also because I imagine people are hoping MS will drop it as a requirement.
 
A lot of the stuff mentioned here is tin foil hat stuff unless you can show me the evidence.

http://news.cnet.com/FBI-taps-cell-phone-mic-as-eavesdropping-tool/2100-1029_3-6140191.html
Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off."

As a general rule, consider that anything that is turned off by software or by a one-state button (ie doesn't physically disconnect wires) is never really off/disabled. The only way to be sure a device is off is to remove all power sources connected to it (and even then, some capacitors can hold a charge for some time, so you'd better wait a few hours before relaxing). Otherwise you're just trusting what the constructor is telling you in the manual (and assuming it hasn't been hacked).
 
You people are absolutely ridiculous!
First, what are you doing in your living rooms that you want to keep from being spied on?
Cool, so you won't mind me setting up a webcam in your living room then yeh? Don't worry about me checking out what you and any visitors are doing from time to time.
 
Go read the PSN privacy policy:

What information is collected?

"information about how you use SEN, for example, what content you download, what services/advertisements you access and for how long, including how often you use chat, message boards or other communication services"

It also goes on to state that they could provide this info to anyone as it pertains to any legal matter.

These issues are prevalent with any communications device. Not just MS.

Read the whole thing here.

http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/ps3-eula/psn/h/h_privacy_en.html
 
http://news.cnet.com/FBI-taps-cell-phone-mic-as-eavesdropping-tool/2100-1029_3-6140191.html


As a general rule, consider that anything that is turned off by software or by a one-state button (ie doesn't physically disconnect wires) is never really off/disabled. The only way to be sure a device is off is to remove all power sources connected to it (and even then, some capacitors can hold a charge for some time, so you'd better wait a few hours before relaxing). Otherwise you're just trusting what the constructor is telling you in the manual (and assuming it hasn't been hacked).

lol, wow.
 
http://news.cnet.com/FBI-taps-cell-phone-mic-as-eavesdropping-tool/2100-1029_3-6140191.html


As a general rule, consider that anything that is turned off by software or by a one-state button (ie doesn't physically disconnect wires) is never really off/disabled. The only way to be sure a device is off is to remove all power sources connected to it (and even then, some capacitors can hold a charge for some time, so you'd better wait a few hours before relaxing). Otherwise you're just trusting what the constructor is telling you in the manual (and assuming it hasn't been hacked).

Isolated incident but fair enough. And for the record there is no proof of that and there is no evidence of it anywhere else.

Go read the PSN privacy policy:

What information is collected?

"information about how you use SEN, for example, what content you download, what services/advertisements you access and for how long, including how often you use chat, message boards or other communication services"

It also goes on to state that they could provide this info to anyone as it pertains to any legal matter.

These issues are prevalent with any communications device. Not just MS.

Read the whole thing here.

http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/ps3-eula/psn/h/h_privacy_en.html

PRISM is not actively collecting information from Sony. They are actively collecting information from Microsoft. Big difference.
 
Honestly, I feel some of you are holding back technology and human advancement with your unreasonable paranoia. Microsoft watching people is a possibility, but I don't consider it a likely one.
 
Because unlike personal devices this is a camera in your living room. It's not a personal device, it's a family device. Also because I imagine people are hoping MS will drop it as a requirement.

A personal device is on your person at almost all times. When you're tucking your kid in at night, when you're at your mistress' apartment, at the ball game instead of going to work, picking up drugs in a 7-11 parking lot etc. I think a device limited to a single location (albeit obviously a very "personal" place) is less of a concern than something you always have with you. But that's semantics in my opinion because the debate should really be over the government's reach, not the device itself. That's a totally separate discussion not worth having here

My main point in my argument here is, sure, people deserve the right try to fight what they feel are invasions to their personal privacy, even though I may disagree with that notion since I don't take much issue with the recent surveillance news ( again I won't try to make this a larger debate than what this particular thread covers). However, if you do, I just hope people are considering just how far reaching these implications truly are, and how in the grand scheme of things and in light of the way our entire world is already connected, the potential privacy issues that may arise from this may not outweigh the benefit of the device. There will be options to disable the "features" of the Kinect, just like there are options to disable data on your phone. Whether they are truly off and whether the government has access to it is no different than any other networked device you own. This is just another device in a long list of the devices that have the potential to "invade" your privacy.
 
Isolated incident but fair enough. And for the record there is no proof of that and there is no evidence of it anywhere else.

You don't really need evidence when you know how it works. If it is disabled by software, then it can be re-enabled by software. So to someone having remote access to your device, it doesn't matter what you did to your setup since they can undo it all the same.
 
A personal device is on your person at almost all times. When you're tucking your kid in at night, when you're at your mistress' apartment, at the ball game instead of going to work, picking up drugs in a 7-11 parking lot etc. I think a device limited to a single location (albeit obviously a very "personal" place) is less of a concern than something you always have with you. But that's semantics in my opinion

My main point in my argument here is, sure, people deserve the right try to fight what they feel are invasions to their personal privacy, even though I may disagree with that notion since I don't take much issue with the recent surveillance news ( but I won't try to make this a larger debate than what this particular thread covers). However, if you do, I just hope people are considering just how far reaching these implications truly are, and how in the grand scheme of things and in light of the way our entire world is already connected, the potential privacy issues that may arise from this may not outweigh the benefit of the device. There will be options to disable the Kinect, just like there are options to disable data on your phone. Whether they are truly off is a separate debate that I tried to address as well; but that affects every single networked device that we live with. This is just another device in a long list of the devices that have the potential to "invade" your privacy.

No it isn't. Yours might be but mine isn't.

I understand you're at a point where "fuck it they can always watch me anyway" but not everyone is. Some people still give a shit about privacy and government overreach and while I understand I essentially have to have a smartphone to do what I do, the Kinect offers no such trade off. It's simply a video game peripheral. Why would I give bad actors to another avenue into my life if I get nothing in return?

It's a problem so people are concerned about it. We don't say "well women are going to get raped so why try and stop it? People are gonna get robbed what can you do, may as well just live with it"
 
All one of these big companies has to do is actually practice some civil disobediance... Can you imagine if Google or Microsoft simply said "No" to the NSA?

What could the NSA REALLY do? Shut down Google or Microsoft? Not only would they but cutting off their nose to spite their face (NSA assuredly uses computers, and likely uses plenty of google and microsoft products on their machines), but the private sector backlash would be astronomical... Imagine a day where no one is allowed to access their google and instead they are greeted with an NSA take down notice... It would really really ruin their day.

On top of that, the amount of good will it would generate would almost assuredly make up for any temporary lost revenue...
 
You don't really need evidence when you know how it works. If it is disabled by software, then it can be re-enabled by software. So to someone having remote access to your device, it doesn't matter what you did since they can undo it all the same.

I'm very dubious to this roving bug, even when I google it, all I found was that one article and that was it. along with other paranoid forum posts.
 
Isolated incident but fair enough. And for the record there is no proof of that and there is no evidence of it anywhere else.
Snowden claimed he could pretty much listen to anyone's mobile phone in that manner if they needed to.
 
PRISM is not actively collecting information from Sony. They are actively collecting information from Microsoft. Big difference.

The CIA have been making deals to collect data from international companies like Telstra in Australia, and that was before PRISM. If Sony was a big enough target for data, there would be no question the CIA would try to get something in place with Sony as well. PRISM was an NSA scheme, which is why it focused on US companies. International companies would fall under the CIA's operations and the only leaks so far have been regarding the NSA. It would not really be shocking at this stage if the CIA has intelligence co-operation with international companies. Especially those in countries like Japan and Korea since those countries have close military ties with the US (Maybe that's what Greenwalt was hinting was coming next?)
 
And they have been caught lying about their data being private. Was it their fault they lied? Yes but that might cause legal issues with the government. Microsoft and NSA got caught with their pants down, they were both lying.

They couldn't tell the truth. That's the point.

I mean, blame MS all you want, but what the NSA is doing right now IS lawful. And companies are required to comply with lawful orders.

My opinion is that instead of railing against private companies, we should be trying to get the law changed.
 
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