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[spiderman123]

Thought this was interesting.....

Last year we wrote about how Minecraft developer Notch (Markus Persson) had been quite vocal in saying that worrying about piracy was a waste of time, and it was much more important to focus on giving people a reason to buy. And has he ever. The game keeps selling like crazy, and we detailed how he was raking in a ton of money, despite not caring if people were using his software for free.

In a short presentation at the Independent Games Summit he elaborated on those positions and again told people to stop worrying about "piracy" and focus on giving people reasons to buy. He dismissed the standard party line on these issues:

Piracy is not theft. If you steal a car, the original is lost. If you copy a game, there are simply more of them in the world.

There is no such thing as a 'lost sale'... Is a bad review a lost sale? What about a missed ship date?

The "lost sale" point is one we've raised a bunch in the past, but people have a lot of trouble grasping it. There is no such thing as a lost sale, because a lost sale just means a failure to get people to buy. And that's a marketing issue, not a legal one. If a "lost sale" is illegal, then anyone who gives you a coupon to buy their product instead of a competitors is "causing a lost sale." But that's ridiculous. And that's the point Notch is making. There are all sorts of reasons people might not buy from you -- and most of them may be your fault. So it's your job to convince people to pay for something -- which he's clearly done. As he notes:

If you just make your game and keep adding to it, the people who copyright infringed would buy it the next week.

Another report of the talk showed he expanded on the "copying isn't theft" concept:

A lot of big companies try to make piracy like theft; I wouldn't steal a car, but I would 'steal' a good design. If I liked another person's apartment, I would try to make mine look like someone else's... but that's not stealing.

And, of course, he's still making money like crazy. While it doesn't look like he posts historical data any more, he does show a running tally of the past 24 hours, and as of me writing this, he's sold 10,348 copies in the past 24 hours (out of 36,612 registered). At 15 euros a pop, that's over 150,000 euros in the last day -- for a small indie game. And these numbers have been going on for months. It's not even a situation where there was a big boom and then sales dropped off. It appears that the game just keeps on selling.

But it's impossible to make money because of "piracy" right?

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110303/02203613336/minecraft-creator-says-no-such-thing-as-lost-sale.shtml


lock if old please.

 

[JaseC]

Essentially, he's agreeing with Valve's approach.

 

[erpg]

I guess the moral of the story for indie developers is sell your games in alpha so your updates look like new and attractive content.

 

[HurricaneJesus]

The moral is to make good games that are fun.

 

[Sh1ner]

I bought minecraft solely after checking the blog update and noticing he kept on adding more to his game. I have pld quite a bit of it. I also love how the changes are implemented first and we hear how it changes gameplay and we can instantly go play it. Its like anti waiting. Love this new model.

 

[Blimblim]

I guess the moral of the story for indie developers is sell your games in alpha so your updates look like new and attractive content.

Or to keep adding to your already finished game at a fast enough rate that it becomes too inconvenient for pirates to look for an updated cracked version.

 

[ultron87]

Now it's been a bit since I played Minecraft, but don't you have to sign in to your account to play? Or can you just play offline?

If you have to sign into your paid account to play the game then of course Notch has nothing to worry about piracy, he's protecting the game the way Steam does.

 

[Sofo]

Now it's been a bit since I played Minecraft, but don't you have to sign in to your account to play? Or can you just play offline?

If you have to sign into your paid account to play the game then of course Notch has nothing to worry about piracy, he's protecting the game the way Steam does.

You don't pay for the account, but you do need an account to download the game, after you've paid for it.

 

[Nemo]

A lot of big companies try to make piracy like theft; I wouldn't steal a car, but I would 'steal' a good design. If I liked another person's apartment, I would try to make mine look like someone else's... but that's not stealing.

wut?

 

[Diebuster]

Gotta agree with the guy. People are going to pirate games no matter what kind of draconian DRM is implemented as 'protection'. Better to make the best possible product rather than pissing off actual consumers.

 

[Brazil]

Not all games are services or account-based, Notch. Also, most of them can be "finished" - and most pirates won't buy games they've already played to the ending.

 

[Kilrogg]

The moral is to make good games that are fun.

I like you.

 

[pringles]

wut?

He's saying copying a game is like copying someone else's design (or apartment), the original isn't lost just because you've made a copy. Therefore, it isn't theft in the way stealing a car is theft.

 

[Draft]

Interesting observation for the post retail world.

 

[Interfectum]

He seems to go off on a weird tangent but I agree there is no such thing as a lost sale. It someone steals a Ford Focus that doesn't man Ford has lost a sale... most likely that person would've never bought it in the first place.

Also, if you keep the price of your game low and supply it with tons of good updates you might convince a pirate or two that it's easier to just get the game legit than surf around the internet for cracks. In fact, piracy might even be a good way to get your foot in the door and find customers you wouldn't normally get.

 

[Sh1ner]

wut?

I think he is talking about ideas, just badly worded. The concept of ownership is changing such as how to do things in a certain way via programming can be licensed I think. Even if you come up with the idea yourself, if it looks similar, you can be sued for it. It doesn't relate to games directly... well thats my interpretation.

 

[Sqorgar]

Not all games are services or account-based, Notch.

His solution may not be useful for every product, but I think his point still stands. Piracy isn't stealing. It's copyright infringement. There's a substantial difference between the two. And the absolute best way to combat copyright infringement is to continue to produce.

 

[SturokBGD]

So what he's saying is that EA have the right idea with their online passes and their mountains of DLC.

Ho ho!

 

[Nemo]

He's saying copying a game is like copying someone else's design (or apartment), the original isn't lost just because you've made a copy. Therefore, it isn't theft in the way stealing a car is theft.

You still have to buy the material

 

[MisterHero]

Hey I know I should print my own money, there will only be more of it in the world

Spoiler

no

 

[Princess Skittles]

Neither extreme is true.

Adhering to one is just as dumb as adhering to the other.

 

[Interfectum]

So what he's saying is that EA have the right idea with their online passes and their mountains of DLC.

Ho ho!

No, EA is swinging too hard in that direction. The perfect example of what he's talking about is the Valve approach, specifically games like Counter Strike, TF2, etc.

 

[nincompoop]

LMAO at MisterHero's avatar.

Kudos to Minecraft creator for speaking the truth. I guarantee that the PC market would expand greatly if publishers stopped using intrusive DRM.

 

[mclem]

If you just make your game and keep adding to it, the people who copyright infringed would buy it the next week.

His argument works fine for concept-based games, games where you can release a limited implementation of the concept and then add to it through updates. To use a big mainstream retail success as an example, you could (just about) apply a similar philosophy to Civilisation or Simcity. Indeed, it's pretty much inherently how Nethack came about back in the day.

It's less effective, though, when we're talking about content-based games, where the design is specifically structured around an idea of progression through a finite quantity of content. In those situations releasing an 'incomplete' product is rather limiting, and the time constraints on producing new content to be consumed make it hard to handle episodically; imagine releasing a Zelda with a single dungeon, how long would you have to wait for another one? What if there's changes to the core engine that are required for the next one? Would the world suddenly morph after an upgrade to one that includes new secrets which require the new dungeon's key item?

It's not an impossibility; if the entire thing is planned out in advance, episodic content releases can work quite well; witness Telltale's moderate success. However, it's certainly not something that's applicable to everyone.

 

[mclem]

Hey I know I should print my own money, there will only be more of it in the world

Spoiler

no

It's accurate to state that that's not theft, though.

 

[Brazil]

His solution may not be useful for every product, but I think his point still stands. Piracy isn't stealing. It's copyright infringement. There's a substantial difference between the two. And the absolute best way to combat copyright infringement is to continue to produce.

Maybe he's right there, but that's just useless semantics. It doesn't matter if it's "stealing", metaphorically speaking. It hurts the developers and publishers, and it is what it is.

 

[Interfectum]

Is there a bigger picture of this?

fucking hilarious

 

[Nemo]

I think he is talking about ideas, just badly worded. The concept of ownership is changing such as how to do things in a certain way via programming can be licensed I think. Even if you come up with the idea yourself, if it looks similar, you can be sued for it. It doesn't relate to games directly... well thats my interpretation.

Even if he was referring to concept/game ideas it was still a bad analogy, like at message board level

 

[dragonfart28]

Yup.

If your game is good enough and reasonably priced - then you don't have to worry about piracy. The same principle works with hardware. It's the reason why the last place hardware manufacturers typically worry the most about piracy.

 

[test_account]

I'm pretty sure that many people would bought a game if piracy didnt excist and the only way they could get the game was to buy it, so in this way i think that lost sales can excist. But with that said, exactly how much lost sales and how much potentially lost income we are talking about is impossible to know for sure.


And out of curiousity, is theft only when a physical item is taken? What if i "borrow" some unpublish book, copy it and publish it under my name. The original unpublished book would still belong to the original owner, so it isnt lost. If that isnt theft, then what is it called? I'm not trying to compare this to piracy just to underline that, it is just a question to the claim that was made about "the original is lost".

Yup.

If your game is good enough and reasonably priced - then you don't have to worry about piracy. The same principle works with hardware. It's the reason why the last place hardware manufacturers typically worry the most about piracy.

I think that all hardware manufacturers will do what they can to stop piracy regardless if they are in first or last place. Being in last place, they might have more to lose though, since then the original sales are usually lower compared to the first place platform.

 

[erpg]

And out of curiousity, is theft only when a physical item is taken? What if i "borrow" some unpublish book, copy it and publish it under my name. The original unpublished book would still belong to the original owner, so it isnt lost. If that isnt theft, then what is it called? I'm not trying to compare this to piracy just to underline that, it is just a question to the claim that was made about "the original is lost".

That's pretty much the reason copyright laws were invented.

 

[sn00zer]

Yup.

If your game is good enough and reasonably priced - then you don't have to worry about piracy. The same principle works with hardware. It's the reason why the last place hardware manufacturers typically worry the most about piracy.

Yep...unless your game is Crysis, or Bioshock, or Assassins Creed, or any of the hundreds of other games that are good enough and reasonably priced and pirated into oblivion anyway

 

[test_account]

That's pretty much the reason copyright laws were invented.

True, but if it isnt called theft, then what is it called?

 

[ultron87]

Just because something doesn't fit the dictionary definition of theft doesn't mean it is any less potentially harmful.

 

[erpg]

True, but if it isnt called theft, then what is it called?

Copyright infringement.

But the whole theft/copyright thing is just semantics. Bad is bad.

 

[jorma]

True, but if it isnt called theft, then what is it called?

Copyright infringement.

 

[Sqorgar]

It's not an impossibility; if the entire thing is planned out in advance, episodic content releases can work quite well; witness Telltale's moderate success. However, it's certainly not something that's applicable to everyone.

Another form of episodic content is sequels. See, the one thing that piracy can't do is create more content. If you release something like Dead Space and it gets pirated a lot, but those pirates REALLY want to play a Dead Space 2, then you've increased your potential audience for a Dead Space 2. (Okay, Dead Space is a bad example, since it copied 90% of it's gameplay and ideas from other games in the first place).

My point is, in a post scarcity world, the only thing that is truly scarce and truly valuable is the ability to contribute to creation. Copying all the games in the world won't create new ones. It won't fix bugs or improve features or contribute more story or anything like that. If people want to see more games from a particular developer, they will end up paying more for what hasn't happened yet than what already did.

 

[CrankyJay]

OP's avatar is fucking incredible.

 

[ultron87]

Another form of episodic content is sequels. See, the one thing that piracy can't do is create more content. If you release something like Dead Space and it gets pirated a lot, but those pirates REALLY want to play a Dead Space 2, then you've increased your potential audience for a Dead Space 2. (Okay, Dead Space is a bad example, since it copied 90% of it's gameplay and ideas from other games in the first place).

But why would someone make the leap from, "I pirated Dead Space and really enjoyed it" to "I will buy Dead Space 2 for full price" ?

 

[Sh1ner]

Even if he was referring to concept/game ideas it was still a bad analogy, like at message board level

Yea, I expect devs to make good games, never good spokesmen.

 

[Danielsan]

I always have such a hard time with publishers and developers equating pirated downloads to lost sales. The majority of the pirates don't ever purchase games or digital content and probably don't even spend more than 30 minutes with your game after downloading it for free. Had your game somehow been piracy proof then they would have moved on to whichever other game that isn't piracy proof. Even if every game out there was piracy proof, these people would most likely spend their times elsewhere, be it with movies, music, books or free to play games.

Of course I'm not so naive as to think that piracy never results into lost sales, I just think the concept of lost sales due to piracy is vastly overblown.

 

[MarshMellow96]

More car analogies.

 

[Dabanton]

But why would someone make the leap from, "I pirated Dead Space and really enjoyed it" to "I will buy Dead Space 2 for full price" ?

Yeah wouldn't they just pirate the second game as well?

 

[Ultrabum]

Just because something doesn't fit the dictionary definition of theft doesn't mean it is any less potentially harmful.

This. Both sides of this issue are retarded. Pro-file sharing people, "its not theft so its OK, right? Right."

Anti-pirate, "Piracy is the only reason we don't make money, stop stealing our games or all game companies will go out of business."

 

[BloodySinner]

I guarantee that the PC market would expand greatly if publishers stopped using intrusive DRM.

Haha. So how was the market before DRM was ever implemented?

If you just make your game and keep adding to it, the people who copyright infringed would buy it the next week.

If they don't?


This dude is just twisting definitions and is riding on a high horse because he made quite a bit of money off his product and is happy with what he has made at the moment. The tone would have been a lot different if it was not a success (sales).

 

[bengraven]

I guess the moral of the story for indie developers is sell your games in alpha so your updates look like new and attractive content.

It's actually brilliant what he did. He said "here, you can be an alpha tester on my game - for a very low price. You own the game, for a very low price, and never have to buy it again - and you get all the updates and later down the road expansions and DLC for free."

So basically you get a game two years before release, for half the price.

It's an incredible value.

 

[Vanpira]

His example for copying is ridiculous. If you remake your apartment the same as some one else, you would be doing all the work. That is like clone development. Like all the Minecraft clones you see now. Nothing to do with piracy at all.

If I were to take the Minecraft code and give it to everyone I know, have them give it to everyone they know and so on. Would that be okay? The game itself says right on the title screen not to do that, but here he is saying it is no different then redecorating my home.

 

[Sqorgar]

But why would someone make the leap from, "I pirated Dead Space and really enjoyed it" to "I will buy Dead Space 2 for full price" ?

Hype, basically. Not every pirate will be converted, obviously, but don't underestimate the amount of support you'll get if you create a good product that people greatly anticipate.

I'm not defending pirates. I don't pirate and, geez, I've had my own stuff pirated on more than one occasion. I've had people make money and earn fame off ideas that were taken from me (one of the minis on the PSN store was taken from my website). I don't like it one bit. But I've come to terms with the fact that me not liking it isn't really going to change human nature. The only power that someone like me has to combat piracy is the simple fact that I can make more and they can't.

 

[Sh1ner]

Haha. So how was the market before DRM was ever implemented?


If they don't?


This dude is just twisting definitions and is riding on a high horse because he made quite a bit of money off his product and is happy with what he has made at the moment. The tone would have been a lot different if it was not a success (sales).

Wait what? But that is not happening is it? Is this a new strawman of some sort? I dub it oppo-strawman!


A new breed of strawmen are born from this day.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

It's actually brilliant what he did. He said "here, you can be an alpha tester on my game - for a very low price. You own the game, for a very low price, and never have to buy it again - and you get all the updates and later down the road expansions and DLC for free."

So basically you get a game two years before release, for half the price.

It's an incredible value.

It kinda reminds me of an interview with GabeN from a while ago where he said Valve was looking into a way to get gamers to finance the development of a game because customers are your best investors. It sounds to me like Notch has put that idea into practice. All he needed was to get a proof of concept up and running and then a shitload of users/investors put him on his way.