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Misogyny, sexism & why RPS isn't shutting up
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Devolution
Member
Just put all the male characters in thongs.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
les papillons sexuels
Banned
no complaints from me.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Now who's misrepresenting people's statements? I was saying that the lowered self-esteem effects people feel when exposed to beautiful people are not unique to women. Men and women alike have problems with body image and both feel inadequate when compared to idealized versions of their sex. The problem is not with sexualization, but body image, a larger problem in society. The studies I linked on beauty and self esteem were for both men and women.
The researchers in Lime's linked study are only able to draw reserved conclusions. Personally, they failed on a number of sections when compared to the more thorough studies that focused on gender roles and gender stereotypes and how it effects women. The gender role studies focused on BOTH men and women and found that gender stereotypes severely effected women. Their language was explicit. These harmful effects produced large gaps in earning potentials, not just self esteem. The same can't be said for the sexualization studies.
Edit: Oops forgot to add. The sexualization studies tested women by having them play games with sexualized female leads, non sexualized female leads, and women who played no games, then had them do surveys. They did not have groups that played games with sexualized male leads and non sexualized male leads. Then they didn't have male groups that were tested against all five of the same groups again. Then compare what impact that had on both genders (just like the gender stereo type and enforced gender role studies). If the effect caused the women severe, long lasting effects, such as impacting their earning potentials, then I could see the point.
Personally from what I've been reading it feels like sexualization is being unfairly lumped in with the harmful effects of gender stereotypes and enforced gender roles.
Oversexualization for everyone, yay!
Bless you, Japan and your Cho-Aniki!
PD: There whole "sexualization" = "objectification" is a glaring false equivalence if I ever saw one
Devolution
Member
Oversexualization for everyone, yay!
Bless you, Japan!
Hahaha. Those codpieces god damn lol.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
Oversexualization for everyone, yay!
Bless you, Japan!
ties? too much gender sterotyping is going on here.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Fedoras ><
not psycho
Member
I think assumptions are made about the viability of appealing to more female gamers, that are not necessarily rooted in reality. This ties in with so many people assuming women could not possibly like Dragon's Crown, and women would not possibly draw sexualized artwork.
The "backers and financers" are not omniscient. They can miss out on a potential audience for several reasons, such as simply assuming it doesn't exist, or not being creative enough, or only looking at existent game ideas and thus being completely blind to new ideas (not everyone is forward thinking).
Did everyone foresee Harry Potter and Twilight and Hunger Games before any had come out? Female creators are due for a resurgence in video games.
Having said that, I still don't think DC is even an example of a problem, let alone a problem itself. Vanillaware uses a very wide variety of character designs and strong playable female characters. The artist in question is the president of the company and is not being forced in any way to use his personal art style. It doesn't seem to be a cynical approach, and in fact is too exaggerated for optimal mass sex appeal. Just looking at all the other designs they have used, the sorceress is very far from being the "standard" female character. And (to me) the art style holds together as a whole.
From the beginning I thought that the reason it was targeted was precisely because it was too exaggerated to appeal to many people, or be sexy to a lot of people.
I hate to give ideas to detractors of DC, but if you want to make men uncomfortable that's not going to work.
First of all, the "breasts = penis" tactic is counterproductive, because women who wear revealing outfits are NOT showing their genitals, and should not be treated as such. Showing their genitals in public would, in fact, be illegal (though would still not justify sexual harassment, of course).
Second, it is still basically a power fantasy for men.
A better comparison would be Hitsugaya from Bleach. He is popular among women but is not a power fantasy for most men. Men would likely be uncomfortable if he was the "standard" design for males in video games.
This is similar to a post pizzaroll (I think?) posted in the DC thread, and is along the lines of arguments I've been making in eg the Tropes thread. I think there's definitely a problem with debating the particulars of individual instances, where the discussion just ends up trying to align a portrayal or design on some "good"/"bad" axis based on some illusory point system, getting no one anywhere. A single character or a single plot point is more or less insignificant in comparison to the totality of poor characterizations throughout the medium, and the real issue is that we as gamers or creators should all be asking for a different default depiction, one that reflects modern, adult sensibilities about men and women, gender roles, sexual preferences, race and social status, etc. Better characterizations and more thoughtful storytelling means better games for everyone. However I would say it's almost impossible to argue this without providing examples--and certainly people who refuse to see any problem will demand as much,--bringing us right back to meaningless point-tallying. I thought the Tropes video bridged the two pretty well, but too many people went into it already turned off by the messenger.
rohlfinator
Member
Do you have some examples of specific games?
Regardless, I don't think that's a great reason to look at women who don't play traditional, male-targeted games and write them off as a market segment. Not every risk is going to pay off every time.
And there have been successes; Nintendo had a lot of success last generation with games that appealed to both men and women. But Nintendo is one of the few companies that actually puts solid effort into those games -- too often a publisher will just fart out a shovelware Barbie's Shopping Adventures and then conclude that women don't buy games when it doesn't sell.
Devolution
Member
Let's make games that focus on the female market.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
Clearly we don't want the same games but with better female characters, we want Barbie's Horse Adventures.
Jathaine
Member
Who comes up with this stuff? Its like benevolent sexism.
Gotta find a way for the woman to be a victim or rather for something to be wrong with the man on every single issue regardless of what.
No one regards Lara Croft as a female power fantasy because that's just dumb, same applies here.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Finally watched all of the GDC talk linked on RPS. Interesting and inspiring stuff. Especially enjoyed Brenda Romero's portion.
No doubt. One needn't look any further than the last few male leads in the Final Fantasy series, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth they were met with by the fanbase.
I really don't know what you are saying here. The statement you quoted was in reference to a picture of an absurdly muscular dude with a gargantuan penis. That is in fact a power fantasy for men. There was no intent to demonize anyone there that I could read.
A lot of people regard Lara Croft as a female power fantasy. She is an independent, self-confident woman, who travels across the globe going on adventures and single-handedly defeating thugs and monsters, and doesn't take crap from anyone. I can see a lot of women envying her as a character.
However, her appearance (depending on which version you are talking about) may be somewhat of a male sexual fantasy. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Even if I have, saying X number of gamers do this, this nerds are misogynist basement dwellers with weird fantasies is doing exactly what she is decrying. Judging the whole based on the actions of a part. Would I be justified in saying 'Just like most feminists are bra burning man haters'? Of course not, it's ridiculous. She has made several good points, but now she is veering off into vitriol, and helps nobody.
The cultuire may be real, but it is not a defining aspect of nerd culture. Again, it is painting with a very broad brush and generalising to a pint of absurdity. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I would not say that most self identified nerds are misogynists. That is what she is saying, in addition to judging their fantasies as weird and without value. It is just utterly classless and a blatant attack on a group rather than a behaviour. The sort of shit she is working against.
AdventureRacing
Member
I still don't understand why dragon's crown has received so much vitriol. Go and check out the recent trailer for the elf character (fully clothed and quite reasonably proportioned), or go and look at the extremely muscular amazon women. This is a game that actually features different types of women and not just overly sexualised ones.
It's also a game that in general is meant to be over the top and you see that in many of the designs not just the sorceress.
I can't help but feel that this argument also tends to alienate female gamers who happen to like sexualised characters. My GF and in fact pretty much all of the female gamers i know like that type of character and always play as them. I've said it in other threads but you only have to look at a lot of female cosplay to see that this type of character is popular.
Being told that liking that character is wrong or is somehow adding to the sexism in the game industry is insulting to the people who like that design. There is clearly an issue of sexism in the gaming industry (and this goes well beyond the designs of characters) but attacking this one game which isn't even a good example doesn't help the discussion.
For someone attempting to argue for equality this is an oddly insulting post. Demeaning people with mental health problems doesn't exactly add to your argument.
It's also a game that in general is meant to be over the top and you see that in many of the designs not just the sorceress.
I can't help but feel that this argument also tends to alienate female gamers who happen to like sexualised characters. My GF and in fact pretty much all of the female gamers i know like that type of character and always play as them. I've said it in other threads but you only have to look at a lot of female cosplay to see that this type of character is popular.
Being told that liking that character is wrong or is somehow adding to the sexism in the game industry is insulting to the people who like that design. There is clearly an issue of sexism in the gaming industry (and this goes well beyond the designs of characters) but attacking this one game which isn't even a good example doesn't help the discussion.
For someone attempting to argue for equality this is an oddly insulting post. Demeaning people with mental health problems doesn't exactly add to your argument.
I think the thing with characters like the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown is that it does alienate some women from gaming.
We here at NeoGAF and everyones' female friends are mostly okay with it because we are already a part of gaming culture. We are familiar and "comfortable" and mostly accepting of this culture. We are already gamers. We wouldn't be gamers if we weren't the type of girls that either can look passed this or even like this.
But these designs can alienate potential gamers. Girls who are not yet gamers, looking in from the outside and seeing these kinds of things. Of course Dragon's Crown is kind a bad example because no one outside will really see that game ever.
So I think there is some merit in discussing these designs. And to say, "Shut up because I'm a girl and I totally like it," or, "Shut up because I know girls who love this," seems a little silly to me.
We here at NeoGAF and everyones' female friends are mostly okay with it because we are already a part of gaming culture. We are familiar and "comfortable" and mostly accepting of this culture. We are already gamers. We wouldn't be gamers if we weren't the type of girls that either can look passed this or even like this.
But these designs can alienate potential gamers. Girls who are not yet gamers, looking in from the outside and seeing these kinds of things. Of course Dragon's Crown is kind a bad example because no one outside will really see that game ever.
So I think there is some merit in discussing these designs. And to say, "Shut up because I'm a girl and I totally like it," or, "Shut up because I know girls who love this," seems a little silly to me.
bishopcruz
Member
The thing is, no single game or group of games even speaks for the industry as a whole. Games are marketed to different people, and that's how it is. The discussion, and the reason I think we keep going in circles is mainly because honestly Dragon's Crown has a very specific art style and is aiming at a very niche audience. More AAA games tend to have a lot less "offensive" main characters and the most popular series this gen have had very little objectification in general.
So complaining about a niche game having character designs outside the norm, or that are leaning towards one demographic or the other seems pointless. It would be like complaining about what is shown on Spike, Disney, ID, or just about any other channel if you aren't part of the demographic its aiming for. Lord knows I think that Lifetime is home to the worst television ever conceived by humanity, but it must have one hell of a following, because its been around for decades. But again, it's not for me, so I don't much care if one of its shows is dumb, sexist, poorly written or maybe secretly great. Due to what I have seen in the past I have self selected myself otu of caring, and I don't think they miss my viewership much.
Games are much the same way, Persona 4 is very Japanese, anime inspired, so I doubt Atlus really expects much crossover from the CoD crowd, or the madden crowd, or the words with friends crowd. And with more and more reports coming out that Females are becoming a majority of gamers, it seems to me that their needs are being met more and more by the day anyways.
That's what happens in here. People that bring up any loopholes get bashed harshly. Let a person come in here bashing and people are offended. Makes no sense for discussion. The thing that got me was the tropes thread.
People said women are not as strong as males in the actual world. (Peach) Feminist countered with- games are fantasy and everyone should be empowered not just the men.
Now with Dragons Crown the sorceress is a fantasy character made for that crowd in and exaggerated way. Feminist now say that she should be more grounded in reality.
Which way is this going to go? Real or not real? People here make others feel childish for liking anything showing skin. Some would argue that It is childish to not leave interpretation up to the user. Honestly I think It is more childish to go crazy anytime something is showing skin. Are we not all adults.
You can't group people together simply because they enjoy the same hobby. Taste are varied between individuals. Some of these criticisms seems like they stem from hardcore feminist that could care less about games.
Everyone should feel welcome in gaming online or off. Funny thing is, when most here get what they want, another group will feel pushed aside. Stop with the name calling in here and get your message out.
When you look at Cosplay threads tons of women (not all) gravitate towards the sexiest characters honestly. Nothing wrong with sex appeal why is that considered shameful? Why do women wear skirts in tennis or leotards in gymnastics? We don't need gaming to be mom/ feminist approved. We need discussion for more types of games, so more people can play what they want.
No it isn't.
But anyway, these discussions are good to have. Everyone is different and so no matter what (on any topic ever, not just feminism) there are disagreements. But it's good to discuss them because things can always be better.
You may see inconsistencies but that's mostly because it's from different people. Gaming is a big community. And you have misunderstood some things (if you believe that people in the tropes threads were asking for empowerment in the form of the sorceress, you misunderstood).
People talking about these things here are all gamers. There is no hardcore feminist that comes to NeoGAF to post just for a feminist agenda who doesn't care about games. And saying, "I dislike these characters," even in a crude way is not hardcore feminism. People telling you that you liking a character is "wrong" isn't really a new or isolated thing. People do it all the time with everything. For example, people love to remind me how wrong I am for loving FFXIII. But no one accuses those people of being silly and mean and hardcore whatevers that don't really care about games.
Cosplay means nothing. You have a very isolated sample of people who are already deeply entrenched in the culture. Although there are arguments to be made about whether sexuality is as harmful as some people make it out to be.
For the record, I have no problem with the sorceress. I have Dragon's Crown pre-ordered and I will likely play the sorceress because magic.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Let's make games that focus on the female market.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
Clearly we don't want the same games but with better female characters, we want Barbie's Horse Adventures.
Pretty sure that was directed at the younger female market.. you know the same one that buys millions of Barbie's a year.
flabberghastly
Member
I can completely relate to exactly what you're saying, because I've been facing these sorts of issues when trying to get my fiancee into gaming over the last couple years. She doesn't like the pandering sexualization, she doesn't like the gratuitous, pseudo-realistic violence, she doesn't like the power fantasy plotlines, etc. Because so many games feature these elements, it's extremely difficult to find games for her to enjoy that aren't little artful indie projects. The only fairly big series that she has any interest in is LittleBigPlanet.
I actually just put Dragon's Crown to the test with her, showing her some concept art and videos. Her response included words like "stupid" and "ridiculous," and after the first bit, she didn't even want to be shown any more. I asked her if she felt it was sexist, and she said (and I paraphrase), "Well, yeah, but really it just looks dumb."
This is all, of course, just anecdotal evidence utilizing an extremely small sample size, but it does illustrate in its own limited way that there is another side to the issue.
spandexmonkey
Banned
If she was already responding negatively to the gratuitity in games (I imagine this is the same for movies?), then why would you show her Dragon's Crown? I get what you're saying and why someone would feel turned off if these were the only examples of games they saw.
Perhaps more Nintendo-ish games (as you say she responded well to LittleBigPlanet) may be a better way of easing her in. Possibly going into something like Civilization or Minecraft/Terraria if she wants more depth. Gaming is such a large medium now, it would be wrong to define it by the big action block busters and niche gratuitous games.
Edit: Also point & click adventure games may be good too. Not Walking Dead since she responds negatively to gore/violence, but maybe something like Gray Matter or Sam & Max.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No it doesn't. Who's dick is so huge that it literally drags on the floor?
flabberghastly
Member
I showed her Dragon's Crown precisely because I wanted to know what she would think of this as someone who isn't particularly into gaming or its culture. I was actually surprised that the response was more dismissive than critical. She wasn't exactly offended or upset; it seemed more like she was resigned to something resembling a boys-will-be-boys sort of response.
Thanks for the suggestions. I agree, there is so much variety to games themselves, which is an argument I made to her on a number of occasions. It required showing her that, yes, in fact the world of video games does exist beyond the most prominent examples. She has already begun to widen her tastes, which now include a mix of the aforementioned LittleBigPlanet as well as Machinarium, Limbo, Journey, Flower, Braid, Fez, Super Mario Bros 3, and Rayman Origins. In fact, based on her preference for games with unique art styles and quite often 2D gameplay, Dragon's Crown doesn't seem too far from something that could interest her, but, based on what she's seen so far, she couldn't be less interested.
Now, to put this in some more perspective, she isn't exactly opposed to sexuality/titillation in media, nor is she completely bothered by violence. The only two dramatic shows she watches on television are Mad Men and A Game of Thrones, both of which include these elements. I think the difference there is that (and this is simply me trying to read into her responses to these programs) the characters and scenarios are so well developed that it never feels like it's simply included to pander.
Take the character of Joan, for example, on Mad Men, who is probably as close as one can find to an actual human version of the sorceress's body in Dragon's Crown: Joan is an extremely buxom woman who utilizes her feminine charms, but there is far more nuance to her presentation. On one hand, she always dresses appropriately (which is to say, that her fashion certainly is designed to accent and flatter her form, but it does so within the expectations of whatever environment she is in); but, more importantly, the show and the character are fully aware of the patriarchy in which she operates. She utilizes this awareness of male expectations to her own ends at times, but is also used by them at others (there is not only the obvious sexual harassment but also
rape
a situation that borders on prostitution
spandexmonkey
Banned
Good post, although I'm not sure I entirely agree with your point on sexuality. Personally I don't feel that the quality of writing should be the sole factor that makes sexualization justified. Games can be poorly written, such as Tera, but be filled to the brim with sexuality. I feel if a game or movie is going to cater to this interest it should either
a.) be equitable, like Tera's castanics and high elves. On the other hand Rift's female skimpy outfits I feel are wrong not because of the skin they expose, but because the men aren't equally revealing. This is a harmful gender stereotype. Either expose or cover up both sexes equally. Dark Souls, being on the opposite spectrum (clothing wise) of Tera, handles this properly in my opinion.
b.) be written well as the example you provided with Mad Men. It's consistent with the time period the show is trying to portray, same with Game of Thrones (although that show like to show quite a bit of man flesh too). The sexism on display in both shows serve to illustrate the problem with gender stereotypes and enforced roles.
EDIT: C.) After some thought, I'm okay if you're going to make a game/movie/entertainment etc thats going to cater to a specific kind of sexuality, but be honest about it. That new mmo Scarlet Blade is way worse than Dragon's Crown in the exposure department, but at least they're being honest in their advertisement. Clearly labeled, this is catering to people who like big ol titties, I'm personally fine with that.
PS: Tera actually has some inequality in it's races, male/female humans are bad and the popori vs elin.
Mine? High-five! Anyone? No?
Devolution
Member
There's plenty of scenes in Game of Thrones just there to pander.
Kadayi
Banned
In a world where your horny teenager is just a web search and a mouse click away from hardcore pornography (of every shade of grey), is the odd whiff of T&A (and occasional male nudity) on GoT really pandering to anyone anymore in the broader reality?
Let's go through it one by one, because I don't like when people misrepesent and distort my words.
(1) Your first claim is that I've been using ad hominems. You then quote 3 posts of mine without the context of the discussion or the posts I am replying to. And just to be clear from the outset: An ad hominem is an attack against a person and not the argument or position. These are the 3 posts in which you bold them to "prove" they are ad hominems:
Note how the first quote is a reference to assumptions, and not their person. Thus, this isn't an ad hominem.
Note how this second quote is in reference to another poster's opinion that explaining feministic issues is a Sisyphean task, i.e. that it's impossible to do so. Thus, I offered my assessment on why some people are stubborn or why the task might be Sisyphean. Thus, this isn't an ad hominem as it isn't an counter-argument I am making, but a suggested reason for the state of the discussion.
Note how this third quote you are using is "statements", and not ad hominems. Again, I am not making any ad hominem whatsoever.
Therefore, you are misrepresenting what I have been doing and some people are making false conclusions about my participation in that very thread thanks to you.
(2) Your argument about my lack of distinction between the umbrella term 'Asian' and the specific descriptor 'Japanese' suggested that I was equating all Asians to Japanese people. This is however you projecting or reading something into my statement. Granted, I could have been more specific, but I don't see why my statement is a display of "lack of comprehension". I mean, don't you agree that the umbrella term 'Asian' encompasses 'Japanese'?
(3) You then point out that I at two occasions said I intended to stop and leave the thread. This unfortunately overlooks the many (hostile or not) responses and counterarguments that constantly ensued after my posts, as well as misrepresentation or false conclusions about my position and motivation for the thread. I definitely wanted to stay out of the discussion and thread (especially when people, including you, became you hostile and personal against me), but people kept pulling me back in.
(4) Finally, you then make the extremely false conclusion on my comment about the "50 or so posters I didn't finish with a "I thought you were X/Y/Z" by stating the implication of my comment is that I don't respect or attribute value to their posts. This is grossly false and completely and utterly pollutes the discussion if you twist my words into something they in no way represent. First of all, it is simply not a logical conclusion that saying "I don't finish my replies to 50 or so other posters with a I thought you were better than this" entails that I don't respect their opinion or posts. This is completely false. The only explanation for why I don't write , is because I don't remember or recall their earlier post history if I've ever discussed with them before. Second of all, that particular post of mine that you were quoting actually stated that *all* my replies ended with "I thought you were X/Y/Z." In that context, of course I am going to point out that not all my replies ended with that particular comment.
So yes, Zefah, your walkthrough of some of my posts was completely unfactual, misrepresentative, and misinterpretative. It's okay if you misunderstand my posts sometimes, but please don't state your reconstruction of my opinion or arguments as definitively as you did in that particular thread. It pollutes and poisons the discussion and people become even more entrenched and oppositional to something that's supposed to be a worthy goal (inclusion of other people).
Please refrain from doing this again and please refrain from using a hostile tone against me in the future. It will make visiting and discussing on Neogaf a better place to be
Thanks in advance.EDIT: And just to be clear - there are no hard feelings. I only want to what's best for making GAF an inviting and hospitable forum to be in.
I think a game that might fit what you're asking is featuring a female protagonist similar to the ones found in Seirei no Moribito and Juuni Kokki. Feel free to click the link (videos) if you don't mind being spoiled. Balsa is 30 years old, speaks like one, acts like one, doesn't flirt, doesn't shows any skin and has a lean muscular build.
This might not be a suitable thread to voice my concern but as someone who grew up in Asia and exposed to both Western and Eastern culture, is it not possible to avoid marginalising the latter? One of the main reason I'm on neogaf is because this is one of the rare gaming forums that doesn't dropped the word 'Weaboo' or the slang 'Animu' every now and then to anything related to Japanese games. Arguments can get heated up but statements like this one is just disgusting.
EricDiesel
Member
Yeah, a real visionary of gender issues, that Mike Krahulik. Putting those "privilaged" women in their place. Obviously he's the one seeing things clearly.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
And we return 10 pages ago.
Pretty much sums up the entire argument.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Sorry, but I stopped here. Did you read my post or just jump to conclusions?
It starts with this:
posing a question, not a statement, and concludes with this:
I didn't claim you used ad hominems--in fact I admitted that you didn't, but that you came off as very condescending, which is likely what triggered so many hostile reactions against you.
---
edit: actually, I'll keep going, because some of what you wrote bothers me.
When I specifically talked about Japan/Japanese you replied by using the words Asian/Asia. It doesn't take much "reading into it" to see that, to you, Japan and Asia are more or less the same when it came to the argument at hand. And no, I would not agree that the umbrella term 'Asian' encompasses 'Japanese' when it comes to products targeting specific markets. Something like Dragon's Crown is a very Japanese-centric game. You can't just assume it's also targeting other countries in Asia.
My walkthrough was "unfactual?" So you didn't write all of that? I think the snippets in my post speak for themselves. People can go check the context all they want, but almost all of them were chosen to illustrate just how condescending and arrogant you sounded. I've seen you continue this posting style in other threads and get similar reactions all the while defending yourself from hostility by claiming that people are misunderstanding or misinterpreting you. Perhaps you should do a bit of searching within to discover why so many people seem to be misunderstanding your words.
I'll just close out with another choice piece of your holier-than-though style of posting that, at the very least, gets on my nerves quite a bit:
Please refrain from doing this again and please refrain from using a hostile tone against me in the future. It will make visiting and discussing on Neogaf a better place to be
EDIT: And just to be clear - there are no hard feelings. I only want to what's best for making GAF an inviting and hospitable forum to be in.
I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just here to annoy, but parting shots like this make it difficult.