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Misogyny, sexism & why RPS isn't shutting up

I just wish we'd stop talking about this.

I know this person is long since banned, but... if we have yet another 10+ page thread on the subject with people arguing against something that has been (albeit modestly) adopted into every other medium, I think that proves that there's a very strong need to discuss it and will continue to be a need to discuss it.

Many people talk about it purely from a games perspective, but RPS takes the right step to talk about it more from an industry angle. Because the simplest way to combat this is to include more women in the industry and treat them fairly, full stop.

Movies started to have better gender-equal portrayals when more women were brought into film-making. The same has yet to be said about gaming, and while there are a lot of factors to consider why, it doesn't help when the few women who are present in the industry are telling the next generation that there's no equality with quantifiable evidence to this fact.

The simplest solution to this problem would be for publishers and creators to make it a largely more inclusive medium. That there's ignorance and oblivious reaction to such an idea is even worse than the women in the industry warning others of the problem, as it essentially confirms its existence.
 
I think it is. I think if you properly educate anyone on how to empathize with others and see them as people with their own autonomy and rights they will learn to respect that. If you don't, well you'll get some people who plain don't understand why it's wrong to treat women in a certain manner. Most men are capable of learning and doing these things. Most men don't sexually harass and rape here.

You're more optimistic than I then. I mean, I think that it's probably possible to condition just about anyone to accept just about anything, but at the same time I think you'd agree with me if I'd say "abstinence only education doesn't work as a method of reducing teen pregnancy," yeah? I just don't think it's reasonable to expect that we can condition or teach absolutely all harmful behaviour out of society. I would love to be proven wrong though.

It's pretty evident that in saying "rape" or "sexual harassment" of women is inevitable you're actually insinuating men are base creatures who cannot control their impulses. It always depresses me that more men don't stand up to such caricatures of their gender.
Hm. This isn't actually how I was thinking about it. I wasn't suggesting that "we can never root rape out because that's just how men are." It's just how some people are. Certainly not all people, and certainly not all men. Certainly, as statistics show most rapists are men. But I definitely wasn't trying to say that men are inherently rapists.

I know this person is long since banned, but... if we have yet another 10+ page thread on the subject with people arguing against something that has been (albeit modestly) adopted into every other medium, I think that proves that there's a very strong need to discuss it.

That person was actually making a (poorly chosen) joke based upon the excerpts of the article in the OP.
 
Who determines what "creepy" is? I've seen this used as a defense that borderline makes me feel uncomfortable. One of the articles (Cosplay /= Consent) outright stated taking photos in public -- normal shots just without asking permission -- is creepy and is a form of harassment. The article redacted that statement later, but the sentiment has been echoed.

Groping and sexist comments are the problem. Inappropriate photographs like upskirts are the problem. A person who, to you, looks "strange" but does nothing out of the ordinary but exist and maybe snap harmless photos here and there is NOT a problem. Nor is this person a problem if they just look at you in your costume(you are in a costume, are you going to tell me looking isn't allowed in a public convention). However, people like this are sometimes labeled as "creeper". It's ridiculous.

It's that type of definition that makes me uneasy. It outright crosses the line of reasonable expectation in public.

I've always thought about this, but was afraid to post it. Thanks.

Sometimes, these sorts of issues can really fuck with the minds of good men. =/
 
I wasn't arguing that you shouldn't try to curb groping or that victims should take precaution. My argument is that people are fucked no matter what. Some people can't be controlled. It's like murder. No matter how hard you try to prevent it people will still kill each other. It's worth fighting it prevent it sure but it's just something that you won't capable of stopping.

You make this claim so easily... And yet if I were to claim the opposite I'd be laughed out of the thread.

Why? Empirically, neither is more evident than the other. And, since we cannot know, surely it's worth trying to stop it, even if ultimately it can't be?

Stop talking shite.
 
This behavior will always exist, so let's not bother trying to enact change: logical fallacy.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/135-nirvana-fallacy

But people aren't trying to enact change, John Walker's article never touches on how to change things outside of "we need to talk about it." He could have written an article promoting scholarships for women interested in game developement, or the need for better security at conventions, or how games can be designed to appeal to both sexes. Instead he writes an article doling out blame. He writes an article saying "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." It was a lazy article.
 
But people aren't trying to enact change, John Walker's article never touches on how to change things outside of "we need to talk about it." He could have written an article promoting scholarships for women interested in game developement, or the need for better security at conventions, or how games can be designed to appeal to both sexes. Instead he writes an article doling out blame. He writes an article saying "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." It was a lazy article.

Talking precedes doing.

As a group, you don't do anything about something until you've first talked about something.
 
You make this claim so easily... And yet if I were to claim the opposite I'd be laughed out of the thread.

Why? Empirically, neither is more evident than the other. And, since we cannot know, surely it's worth trying to stop it, even if ultimately it can't be?

Stop talking shite.

What? I said it's worth stopping just that it can't be stopped.
 
What's the lock equivalent here?

And no, it's not dressing less provocatively or not walking alone home at night since, as it's been stated many times in this thread, someone you already know (and trust) like a relative is more likely to sexually assault you than anyone else.

Valid point. I'm not sure what the lock is against those close to you. You got any ideas?
Also, for some, the risk of being raped by a stranger is enough to choose not to go out alone at night. For you, the risk seems remote enough that you choose not to alter your behavior. Each choice is an exercise of judgment, and it's well within your rights to make that judgment.
 
Because erotic artwork (or at least, art which contains sex as a primary motivator) is pretty much always about power relationships and often sees women as being owned, in some sense, either by ethereal monsters or men? Sex isn't just about eroticism. And I am not condemning sexualized art, I am condemning how that art is used, and whether or not there is equality in its use.

There doesn't have to be equality in art use. An artist can choose to draw artwork that caters exclusively to people who find women attractive. An author can choose to write a romance novel exclusively for people who find men attractive. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

All you need is equality of opportunity, and as far as I know, there is nothing preventing artists from drawing men in whatever sexualized fashion they want.

And I don't know what you mean by power relationships being sexist. Even sexual therapists try and coach couples to roleplay to spice up their sex lives; including common sexual roleplaying themes like cops, nurses, teacher/student. Authority and submission turn some people on, and that's another normal part of sexuality and sexual expression. Have you never seen erotic artwork with dominating female characters in it? In the case of Dragon's Crown, I can't imagine how anyone can twist that into powerlessness, considering she is literally about to burst out of her skin because she's so overly muscular and powerful.

I don't know what you mean about monsters "owning" people. There are countless games with men dying in it, and I never heard anyone imply that this is sexism towards males.

I'm not trying to attack you, but just the idea that Dragon's Crown is sexist in any way. It's not. And the sooner people stop trying to crusade against sexual game content, the better off we'll all be. Every other art medium on the planet tolerates far more graphic sexual content than gaming does without issue: photography, film, music, literature, painting, sculpture. No one in Dragon's Crown is even nude.

It's just funny that stuff like Game of Thrones is mainstream, but Dragon's Crown has to endure accusations of sexism. It ends up eroding the meaning of the word and the serious issues its supposed to refer to when people abuse the word "sexism" without thinking it through very carefully.
 
Why is it always GUYS that complain about women being misrepresented in games? It's hilarious.
Two things.
1. There are women complaining about it in this very thread.
2. In the context of women being stigmatized and harassed in the videogame community, it shouldn't be hard for a person with enough critical thinking skills to register for a message board to figure out why there would be a plurality of male voices.
 
I guess women shouldn't park their own cars, then. Now that the staggering connection between car parking and rape is known, there should -- no, must! -- be a campaign informing women about how their freedom to park is infringing their freedom to not be raped.

This is a really ignorant counter-argument to that post. Reductio ad absurdum would only work here if I implicated something alongside the statistic, I didn't. Furthermore, I included a link showing a multitude of other stats on the same page as to not be in any shape or form, disingenuous.

A parking garage isn't a side walk/walking down the street. Big city parking garages are not even close to comparable.

I was merely pointing to a stat that may give some insight to where the idea comes from, you know, since you asked? In the stereotypical scenario both are dark isolated places, like a parking garage or a sidewalk in a bad neighborhood, etc. I have no real opinion on the sidewalk theory. You asked, I gave you a stat that could show some minor insight to the idea.
 
Why is it always GUYS that complain about women being misrepresented in games? It's hilarious.

It's not. You're right that certainly there are male advocates for better representation of women in games, maybe even more male advocates than there are female advocates. But that's probably got something to do with the gender skew so far as who's involved in the industry. Besides, there's no rule that a guy can't contribute to arguments of gender in video games.
 
Your going to sell to your markets, simple as that. Until a market forms for fem-sensitive games, it's going to be a nonstarter.

Really this 'sexism' in media is better confronted by ensuring stable famlies and good education with a robust mental health safety net.

All this country ever wants to focus on is symptoms, never the root of the problem. Or are we saying sexism isn't a problem worth pursuing and instead say the problem is sexism in media? A backasswards approach at best that only works to villify and divide while another generation of sexually inept children are being raised.
 
I was merely pointing to a stat that may give some insight to where the idea comes from, you know, since you asked? In the stereotypical scenario both are dark isolated places, like a parking garage or a sidewalk in a bad neighborhood, etc. I have no real opinion on the sidewalk theory. You asked, I gave you a stat that could show some minor insight to the idea.

And I said it isnt comparable and a bad neighborhood isn't the same as a dark isolated place, that doesn't even make sense.
 
It's funny because you are also dealing with absolutes and insulting people...

I probably shouldn't have said fool... I apologize for that.

I just think that when talking about a changing, inconceivably complex system like society, you cannot say that you understand any of it enough to suggest that such and such will always be, or it will never be like that.

You just can't, and it is not in any way helpful to do so.
 
Your going to sell to your markets, simple as that. Until a market forms for fem-sensitive games, it's going to be a nonstarter.

Really this 'sexism' in media is better confronted by ensuring stable famlies and good education with a robust mental health safety net.

All this country ever wants to focus on is symptoms, never the root of the problem. Or are we saying sexism isn't a problem worth pursuing and instead say the problem is sexism in media? A backasswards approach at best that only works to villify and divide while another generation of sexually inept children are being raised.

Media is more than a symptom though, it contributes to mindset. It may be a part of a feedback loop, (sexism in society creates demand for sexist media, sexism in media contributes to a sexist society) but it is still worth addressing. You're quite right that media is produced mostly by corporate interests who pursue a bottom line rather than an agenda, but at the same time, it's worth our time to talk about why the media might or might not be harmful. It creates awareness and just might change the media indirectly by changing the audience attitude.
 
I just think that when talking about a changing, inconceivably complex system like society, you cannot say that you understand any of it enough to suggest that such and such will always be, or it will never be like that.

You just can't, and it is not in any way helpful to do so.
Has there ever been a case where a society was able to completely eliminate a certain unwanted behavior?
 
On one hand I support equality, but on the other I really feel like John Walker should route this discussion to websites focused on the feminist movement.

And out of our sight? I get weary of this debate but fuck that. Change won't happen unless we discuss it instead of some experts in an ivory e-tower.
 
There doesn't have to be equality in art use. An artist can choose to draw artwork that caters exclusively to people who find women attractive. An author can choose to write a romance novel exclusively for people who find men attractive. There's nothing wrong with that at all.
I... what? Why wouldn't people want equality in this?

All you need is equality of opportunity, and as far as I know, there is nothing preventing artists from drawing men in whatever sexualized fashion they want.
Equality of opportunity? So if a man is raped then that's fine, as long as a woman is raped too? I don't think all acts are created equal. And even if they were, treatment here is important and has a real effect on opportunity.

And I don't know what you mean by power relationships being sexist. Even sexual therapists try and coach couples to roleplay to spice up their sex lives; including common sexual roleplaying themes like cops, nurses, teacher/student. Authority and submission turn some people on, and that's another normal part of sexuality and sexual expression. Have you never seen erotic artwork with dominating female characters in it? In the case of Dragon's Crown, I can't imagine how anyone can twist that into powerlessness, considering she is literally about to burst out of her skin because she's so overly muscular and powerful.
http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/20...imagining-an-authentic-sex-negative-feminism/

If you don't want to read the entire thing, here's a pertinent snippet:
When many feminists call an act ‘sex’, they are often careful to distinguish it from other acts which may appear superficially similar, acts during which one partner violates another’s boundaries. They call the latter ‘rape’ instead of ‘sex’ and treat the two categories as mutually exclusive. In doing so they rely on an analysis of rape which understands it as an act of violence, power and hostility. By implication, sex is none of those things.

This analysis places them in a minority. In a rape culture, rape is also called sex, even though it is not nice. Sex acts under coercion are called sex. Sex within marriage is called sex. Pornography does not depict (at best) a kind of genre theatre of power and vulnerability centred on the image of the woman-as-whore, it it said to depict sex, even though the actors are likely to find the paycheck (if there is a paycheck) much nicer than the sex. Sex over unnegotiatable power gradients and sex over severe power gradients in which no effort is made to offset power – it’s all called sex.

Feminists do not own the word ‘sex’. It will not mean what we define it to mean. It will, pending the overthrow of patriarchy, continue to mean what it has always meant.

This particular feminist separation of sex and power/violence is beneficial in that it allows feminists to conceive of the kind of sex we would like ourselves and others to have the opportunity to have. The cost of thinking in that way is that we can forget how, out in the real world, rape, power and sex are experienced at best on a continuum and at worst helplessly intermingled.

If we do not use our own special language, in which sex is what is nice, and everything else is not sex, it should be plain that we must at least consider the possibility that sex, as it is typically experienced, is often not nice.

What other recreational activity is defined like this? It’s neither radical nor prosaic to say that rock-climbing is intrinsically nice; it’s just a bit odd. You can love it, I can hate it, but that does not give it an objective value. Someone who doesn’t like it is not wrong or bad, they’re simply not invited rock-climbing.

But there are words for people who criticise sex. If an individual states or implies that they do not like sex for themselves (whether they are asexual and/or whether they have personal reasons to criticise sex) they are called a prude. They may also be called frigid or damaged or be accused of being gay (when turning down sex from people of a different gender) or straight (when turning down sex from people of a similar gender). But it is when an individual articulates a political criticism of sex that the heavy guns are wheeled in. The name used for this kind of person and their politics is sex-negative.

Who would be sex-negative? It’s like being anti-choice, or pro-death. It’s practically being anti-nice! The words are meant to stop us in our tracks, and to some extent they have. But I would like to brave those words to look at what we might mean by an authentic sex-negative feminism (hereafter: sex-negative feminism).

Not the opposite of sex-positive feminism, and not the woman-policing of the right. A feminism which articulates a radical critique of sex and which dares to consider the proposal that sex may not, inherently, be nice. And perhaps, in much the same way as Easton & Hardy set their sights on ‘slut’, we might reclaim that bad word ‘prude’ while we’re at it.

I don't know what you mean about monsters "owning" people. There are countless games with men dying in it, and I never heard anyone imply that this is sexism towards males.
Monsters are classical mythologies which often speak to ownership. Men are often the dominators of such monsters, while women are often held or otherwise owned by them. Women are temptresses, not enemies, men are enemies, not temptresses. This is unfair treatment, and it goes back into our mythos for thousands of years. The idea that it's equal when patriarchy has dominated our history for thousands of years is absurd.

I'm not trying to attack you, but just the idea that Dragon's Crown is sexist in any way. It's not. And the sooner people stop trying to crusade against sexual game content, the better off we'll all be. Every other art medium on the planet tolerates far more graphic sexual content than gaming does without issue: photography, film, music, literature, painting, sculpture. No one in Dragon's Crown is even nude.
Actually, you are attacking me because you're saying "you" quite a lot. Which means you're arguing against me, rather than what I say. Dragon's Crown may indeed be sexist. I can't claim to know (and more to the point, at least for the moment, it would be hard to claim it's sexist having so little information about it). It doesn't bother me, but I don't speak for everyone's reality. Also, as far as a crusade goes, there isn't one, but there is opposition and a deep-seeded wish for equal treatment. Which is different from opportunity. Opportunity is important in game development itself, but treatment, at least in my mind, is far more important in the final product (I am not saying opportunity is unimportant, but treatment means a lot in media).

Also, being nude is not sexist in and of itself. Once again, there is no line in the sand that determines sexism.
 
Valid point. I'm not sure what the lock is against those close to you. You got any ideas?
Also, for some, the risk of being raped by a stranger is enough to choose not to go out alone at night. For you, the risk seems remote enough that you choose not to alter your behavior. Each choice is an exercise of judgment, and it's well within your rights to make that judgment.
But the risk isn't enough to stop living my life, no. Last semester I had to walk home every night using public transportation because all my classes ended really late. (And yes, I have had friends tell me it would be my fault if I ever got raped and that I shouldn't complain if it ever happened.) Should we just tell women: Don't take night classes because you might get raped by a stranger? Come on. I can understand that some people (including men!) might not be comfortable with doing what I did, but in this case the "precaution" severely limits my life. So instead of educating us by trying to limiting and judging our choices (that don't harm anyone), why not educate or punish those whose choices who DO cause harm?

Why is it always GUYS that complain about women being misrepresented in games? It's hilarious.
You know what's more hilarious? When posters like you think there are no women on the internet, and that we don't complain about our gender being misrepresented in games. :)
 
Has there ever been a case where a society was able to completely eliminate a certain unwanted behavior?

I imagine you'd have to go to more extreme examples to find anything concrete. Perhaps ritualistic sacrifice/suicide and cannibalism; those would all certainly be considered 'unwanted' by modern societies. Though not 100% eliminated, they are neither the norm, nor actively encouraged.
 
Why is it always GUYS that complain about women being misrepresented in games? It's hilarious.

You do realise that some members debating on this thread are female. Furthermore, I don't like being treated badly, so when I see others being treated in a way I feel is wrong I try to do something about it. Just because that person doesn't happen to be you, doesn't mean you just walk away.

Quick question, do any gaffers think we will reach a point where 50% of the members here are female? I think that is a good enough of a reason to make the industry more inviting to women.

Edit: Just noticed that I'm a full member now, yay! :D
 
I find myself agreeing with a good bit of what GrizzNKev has said so far, so I won't repeat what he has said. I will say that for the most part, GAF is better than most places I've seen this issue discussed, mainly because there are more than a handful of posters who are open to an actual discussion instead of a shouting match. It's nice to see these things here on GAF.

I feel like I have a sane view regarding sexism in video games and the industry, but I rarely take part in these threads because of how aggressive people can get. People getting aggressive is still understandable though I guess because there are people who are very passionate about the issue. The first sexism thread I actually took part in went really well I think, and there was some really great discussion going on in there.

I think the biggest problem concerning the topic at hand is that there seems to be a lot of people who do not understand what the real problem is (hell, maybe I don't even understand what the real problem is. I'd like to think I do, but who knows?), or what is being discussed, so you've got people arguing about a lot of different things that are slightly related instead of having a main focus.

I think the bottom line here is that this is a difficult issue. If it wasn't, nobody would be talking about it in the first place.
 
But the risk isn't enough to stop living my life, no. Last semester I had to walk home every night using public transportation because all my classes ended really late. (And yes, I have had friends tell me it would be my fault if I ever got raped and that I shouldn't complain if it ever happened.) Should we just tell women: Don't take night classes because you might get raped by a stranger? Come on. I can understand that some people (including men!) might not be comfortable with doing what I did, but in this case the "precaution" severely limits my life.

That's awful. And yeah, I was aware of the quandary even earlier when I was talking about minimizing your risk (which even when I said it, I didn't know exactly what steps that might include.) What I was really talking about though was managing your risk, because you're absolutely right. We cannot stop living our lives just because X bad thing may happen.

So instead of educating us by trying to limiting and judging our choices (that don't harm anyone), why not educate or punish those whose choices who DO cause harm?

I think that this probably stems from the sense that people do not rape people because no one's ever sat them down and told them that rape is not okay. Rape is not okay. Everyone in outside of the developing world should know this by now. People who rape do not do it out of ignorance. They do it out of malice and self interest, and a complete lack of consideration for the effect of their actions on others. Not because they don't recognize those effects, but because they just don't care.
 

Sorry, that's not what I meant. I wasn't clear.

You can predict future events similar to historical ones based on present events similar to historical ones, sure. I'm saying you cannot predict a non-event from its absence in history. By which logic, before early humans were around you could say that there would never be a species capable of complex society or complex language because there has never been one before.
 
And I said it isnt comparable and a bad neighborhood isn't the same as a dark isolated place, that doesn't even make sense.

The same page states 43% of rapes occur between 6 PM and 12 AM, so the neighborhood is most likely to be dark or at least it's getting darker and typically neighborhoods have a smaller amount of people outside of their homes as the day gets later. Dark and quite possibly isolated. They have more in common than you're acting like.
 
People who rape do not do it out of ignorance. They do it out of malice and self interest, and a complete lack of consideration for the effect of their actions on others. Not because they don't recognize those effects, but because they just don't care.

Not true, at all.
 
I... what? Why wouldn't people want equality in this?


Equality of opportunity? So if a man is raped then that's fine, as long as a woman is raped too? I don't think all acts are created equal. And even if they were, treatment here is important and has a real effect on opportunity.

300px-Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg



http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/20...imagining-an-authentic-sex-negative-feminism/

Monsters are classical mythologies which often speak to ownership. Men are often the dominators of such monsters, while women are often held or otherwise owned by them. Women are temptresses, not enemies, men are enemies, not temptresses. This is unfair treatment, and it goes back into our mythos for thousands of years. The idea that it's equal when patriarchy has dominated our history for thousands of years is absurd.

I don't even know what you're talking about here. The idea that what is equal? Are you saying that women cannot draw men in sexualized ways? Is there some law I'm unaware of that prevents this equality?

You have a web page link, but what on earth are you actually trying to say with it? You want thousands of years of women dominating monsters before sexism is gone? And you think Dragon's Crown might be sexist ... why?

Actually, you are attacking me because you're saying "you" quite a lot. Which means you're arguing against me, rather than what I say. Dragon's Crown may indeed be sexist.

It's not, at all. It's sexual. There's a colossal difference.

Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex.

That's the first thing you've said that I agree with. Connect this definition to Dragon's Crown please.

Also, being nude is not sexist in and of itself. Once again, there is no line in the sand that determines sexism.

That's a major problem, as you're basically saying the word is meaningless. There is a line in the sand, and it doesn't include erotic artwork like Dragon's Crown. If people can't even agree on whether or not its sexist, I don't know how anyone is supposed to take the word seriously. It's not sexist.
 
For someone that hates absolutes you seem to throw a lot them in the disscusion.

I was talking about temporal absolutes. "like always and never".

And I don't hate them... they are of course appropriate in some cases. In cases where there is no evidence to support the claims, they should not be used.
 
That's awful. And yeah, I was aware of the quandary even earlier when I was talking about minimizing your risk (which even when I said it, I didn't know exactly what steps that might include.) What I was really talking about though was managing your risk, because you're absolutely right. We cannot stop living our lives just because X bad thing may happen.



I think that this probably stems from the sense that people do not rape people because no one's ever sat them down and told them that rape is not okay. Rape is not okay. Everyone in outside of the developing world should know this by now. People who rape do not do it out of ignorance. They do it out of malice and self interest, and a complete lack of consideration for the effect of their actions on others. Not because they don't recognize those effects, but because they just don't care.

Unfortunately, many DO seem to do it out of ignorance (though this is obviously spurred by a wanton disregard for anything but their own desires at the time), though it's hard to compute from our end. And if it's not out of ignorance, society still seems to excuse it to degrees. Think back on the initial reaction of the Steubenville, Ohio case. "She was drunk, she was at a party, she..." and on and on.
 
Not true, at all.

Seriously? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just skeptical. That sounds so absurd to me. I was barraged with this message my entire school going life. It was everywhere, on posters, educational videos, lessons, assemblies... This isn't long division. It's not like you miss the wrong day and you'll need to borrow someone's notes. The message was a near constant refrain for 12 years. No means no.
 
Unfortunately, many DO seem to do it out of ignorance (though this is obviously spurred by a wanton disregard for anything but their own desires at the time), though it's hard to compute from our end. And if it's not out of ignorance, society still seems to excuse it to degrees. Think back on the initial reaction of the Steubenville, Ohio case. "She was drunk, she was at a party, she..." and on and on.

Society does a shit job of explaining consent and the idea of women as autonomous people whom aren't objects for sexual release.


Seriously? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just skeptical. That sounds so absurd to me. I was barraged with this message my entire school going life. It was everywhere, on posters, educational videos, lessons, assemblies... This isn't long division. It's not like you miss the wrong day and you'll need to borrow someone's notes. The message was a near constant refrain for 12 years. No means no.

There have been studies about this that do actually back up the fact that many people do not understand consent. I'd say one of the problems is "no means no" it leaves it up to the woman to be assertive. It should be "yes means yes" and focus on her consent not the assertion of no but the lack of yes. People come to construe this as they always have to ask when it's actually be more aware of what's going on.
 
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