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[Gustav]

Quite a few, in the variant of "feminists shouldn't be so angry, they should instead heed my recommendations on how to handle this".

Wow - that's, like, your opinion, man.

 

[Htown]

What I find noteworthy is that none of the posters in this thread see a problem with themselves being loud, annoying and/or angry. But when it's someone else who disagrees with you, and a woman to boot, hoooo boy watch out!

Um, of course you're going to have more of a problem with someone you disagree with.

Duh.

Also, not that Leigh Alexander hasn't pulled her share of unfair and gender-based hatred, but that's not the only thing going on here. Her being female is not the sole, or even primary, reason that people are annoyed with her.

Witness the ongoing internet love affair with Arthur Gies.

 

[jakonovski]

Hey, I also complained about Jim Sterling in another thread.

More power to you, I'm not gonna single you out here.

But consider that Leigh Alexander gets creepier treatment than Arthur Gies. There's something wrong with this place for sure.

 

[aristotle]

I don't know what to do at the point people seem so worried about how angry someone is and how they should be nicer and somehow, and very innocently, have these great ideas of how they should improve a movement that they are not part of but could be if only they weren't so angry.

You don't need a license to be a feminist or an atheist, if *all* that is preventing you from "join" is someone who is angry, then contratulation, you are already in, you don't even need to self-proclaim yourself a feminist and you don't even need to quote atheists books, you just be yourself and discuss like yourself would when someone that seems unfair comes up.

Now, if you don't agree with feminism, or atheism, or any ism, then why are you so worried about how they're not catching any flies with whatever sauce they are using? You don't even know if their intention is to catch the fucking fly? Maybe they are genuinely angry at the fly, with good reason, the bloody irritating thing, and want the fly to know that it is ruining their soup.

There's a point where there's no easy way to tell you that you are privileged and there is especially no easy way to tell you that if everything go according to plan, your job market will get even tougher because women are now in the competition. If you're okay with this bitter message, the bitter way in which is expressed should be the least of your concerns.

The point is, you don't make your case by completely dismissing the vast majority of a population. It's as easy as hell to sway people if you're not a condescending prick about it. Leigh's rash generalizations about men and "nerd culture" go against the very thing she is supposedly mad about; i.e. being exclusive and hurtful.

Her personal website isn't a forum or an establishment of two-way communication. Nor is it a publication with an intended readership. She can choose to use it however she like in regards to its communicative aspects.

That doesn't mean I agree with her antagonization, but I don't see why people are demanding to be able to publicly comment or respond to the stuff on her personal website.

I never said I wanted to discuss with her. I was trying to point out the hypocrisy in her post. People seem to think her hypocrisy is ok because she's 1. female and 2. a self-imposed feminist. I don't see how she has any leg to stand on.

 

[Lime]

Oh, that's another fun discussion. But what has to do with "male nerd privilege"?

Read the post I was quoting if you have trouble understanding the context of what I am referring to.

 

[Cipherr]

What I find noteworthy is that none of the posters in this thread see a problem with themselves being loud, annoying and/or angry. But when it's someone else who disagrees with you, and a woman to boot, hoooo boy watch out!

Like who, specifically.

Quite a few

Lets do better than random scattershots across a thread including dozens and dozens of total posters....

Nothing wrong with your comment, but direct it at he people its meant for.

So. Like who.... specifically.

 

[vidcons]

Like who, specifically.

us

us men

us gamers

 

[jakonovski]

Like who, specifically.



Lets do better than random scattershots across a thread including dozens and dozens of total posters....

Like who.... specifically.

Hey, if the shoe fits!

But are you seriously saying you need a citation before you accept that Alexander has been and is the target of a major hate-on?

 

[radios shipping overview]

Quite a few, in the variant of "feminists shouldn't be so angry, they should instead heed my recommendations on how to handle this".

Why is it okay to use ad hominem attacks in your argument if you're arguing for feminist causes?

 

[Cipherr]

Hey, if the shoe fits!

But are you seriously saying you need a citation before you accept that Alexander has been and is the target of a major hate-on?

Lets not sidetrack and put words in my mouth.

Why don't you tell me... which posters specifically you are referring to when you posted this:

What I find noteworthy is that none of the posters in this thread see a problem with themselves being loud, annoying and/or angry. But when it's someone else who disagrees with you, and a woman to boot, hoooo boy watch out!

And lets not do this solely for Cipherr's supposed need for citations. Lets do it in the spirit of promoting reasonable discourse. You did specify that there were quite a few, so Im expecting that this won't send you much out of your way.

Again, people that act the way you described ARE a problem. I totally agree with that. I do not agree with jumping into a thread and tossing out a random insult directed at absolutely noone in particular. It does nothing to help the discussion, it only hurts it.

 

[vidcons]

Male privilege is not so dissimilar to white privilege.

People take it for granted, and don't realize how much they benefit from these advantages. And they then take offense when someone starts to challenge it, as they think they are being unfairly attacked.

I know nothing I've said is new. And posting this late in the thread is kind of silly. But as a white middle class male, it's hard not to see how much things are designed around my demographic. And once you see that, how can you not feel bad for everyone else that has to put up with that crap? I can't even imagine being another race, gender - that has to consume media that is rarely tailored for them, and leaves them out in the cold. Media that not only objectifies or belittles them, but will sometimes leave them out completely!

Like most of you, I love video games. It's my favorite hobby/passion. Just imagine having that hobby/passion and knowing that most of it won't include you, or be designed with you in mind. Would be awful.

actually, there is media tailored to minorities! there are minorities in the games industry! there are minorities in general who are living successful lives instead of fulfilling the impoverished image everyone creates to defend their quota stance!

it's pretty amazing, actually, that they have risen above the fact that they're black, hispanic, female, gender queer, etc. but nobody is going to discuss them because that takes effort. who wants to send out emails and know about minorities? no, fuck that, let's talk about privilege and say that we simply need to increase the numbers. that's all minorities are, right, numbers? lets just bump that number up. that's equality, right? that's social improvement.

let's not like, celebrate those that inspire. nah, fuck me and my white male privilege. throw me on the cross, i'll martyr for your cause. we made jesus white once, why not again.

 

[dude]

actually, there is media tailored to minorities! there are minorities in the games industry! there are minorities in general who are living successful lives instead of fulfilling the impoverished image everyone creates to defend their quota stance!

it's pretty amazing, actually, that they have risen above the fact that they're black, hispanic, female, gender queer, etc. but nobody is going to discuss them because that takes effort. who wants to send out emails and know about minorities? no, fuck that, let's talk about privilege and say that we simply need to increase the numbers. that's all minorities are, right, numbers? lets just bump that number up. that's equality, right? that's social improvement.

let's not like, celebrate those that inspire. nah, fuck me and my white male privilege. throw me on the cross, i'll martyr for your cause. we made jesus white once, why not again.

What exactly are you saying here? No one is claiming minorities never succeed or that privileged people can't have it tough. But the problem is that some people are systematically disenfranchised. Are you saying there are no systematical problems right now for minorities, women, queers and other oppressed and disenfranchised people? Because boy, you must live in a different world than me!

 

[Einherjar]

I can see why people want the gaming industry to be more "respectable" and lead the way somewhat in gender equality, but I don't think that's its job. Games are a reflection of the times, and once it becomes unacceptable in society to sexualize women to sell a product, then the gaming industry will naturally follow.

Basically, as long as there's demand, there will be supply. So men better stop wanting to look at sexy women lol!

 

[Lime]

vidcons, you are rambling like a ADHD-diagnosed glue-sniffing teenage boy masturbating with a plastic bag around his head.

 

[APF]

What I find noteworthy is that none of the posters in this thread see a problem with themselves being loud, annoying and/or angry. But when it's someone else who disagrees with you, and a woman to boot, hoooo boy watch out!

Well that's a natural cognitive bias that is shared by all people, ala Fundamental Attribution Error, Confirmation bias, etc. While we're on the subject of cognitive biases I think a lot of anti-feminist-critiques-of-tech/gaming folks (especially in the Dragon's Crown thread, but also in the Tropes thread and elsewhere) are demonstrating reactance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology) when confronted with people posting criticisms of their pastime, favorite games, etc, that they hadn't seriously considered before.

 

[vidcons]

what if we brought to attention women in The Industry who were successful. or indie ladies who are making games. what if we gave a damn about games credits and cared about who is listed. nono no no no NO. leigh fucking alexander. a giant dumb head is becoming the posterchild for games feminism and people are going to fucking defend her. don't defend her, she is dumb. change the focus, change "the leader."

NO, defend leigh alexander while she puts up word poop on her artistically minimalistic blog for idiots.

 

[dude]

I can see why people want the gaming industry to be more "respectable" and lead the way somewhat in gender equality, but I don't think that's its job. Games are a reflection of the times, and once it becomes unacceptable in society to sexualize women to sell a product, then the gaming industry will naturally follow.

Basically, as long as there's demand, there will be supply. So men better stop wanting to look at sexy women lol!

Things don't change by themselves, you know. The only way to bring froth a society in which its unacceptable to sexualize women, is to make this and any other industry... Stop sexualizing women.

what if we brought to attention women in The Industry who were successful. or indie ladies who are making games. what if we gave a damn about games credits and cared about who is listed. nono no no no NO. leigh fucking alexander. a giant dumb head is becoming the posterchild for games feminism and people are going to fucking defend her. don't defend her, she is dumb. change the focus, change "the leader."

NO, defend leigh alexander while she puts up word poop on her artistically minimalistic blog for idiots.

You're sort of all over the place - But showing respect and celebrating the women and female characters who manage to actually make it in this industry is already happening. Even by people like Leigh Alexander.

 

[vidcons]

What exactly are you saying here? No one is claiming minorities never succeed or that privileged people can't have it tough. But the problem is that some people are systematically disenfranchised. Are you saying there are no systematical problems right now for minorities, women, queers and other oppressed and disenfranchised people? Because boy, you must live in a different world than me!

how do we fight the system. we crunch the numbers, mother fucker

i'm saying there is a social influence on the institutions that reinforce it. gross mother fuckers who treat the issue as a numbers game need to fuck off, because all that does translate the problem to Hire More Women = Equality which isn't the case. the case is that there is no inspiration for people not because it doesn't exist but because nobody wants to put in the effort. everyone wants to talk about the problems and then come up with some numbers solution which is incredibly insulting. the "system" isn't the problem, it's that the supporters don't know how to make their argument, the defenders have shifted the topic around leigh alexander, and it's all retarded as hell.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Well that's a natural cognitive bias that is shared by all people, ala Fundamental Attribution Error, Confirmation bias, etc. While we're on the subject of cognitive biases I think a lot of anti-feminist-critiques-of-tech/gaming folks (especially in the Dragon's Crown thread, but also in the Tropes thread and elsewhere) are demonstrating reactance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology) when confronted with people posting criticisms of their pastime, favorite games, etc, that they hadn't seriously considered before.

Because if we disagree with X issue, all of us didn't thought throught about hard enough...

 

[Lime]

what if we brought to attention women in The Industry who were successful. or indie ladies who are making games. what if we gave a damn about games credits and cared about who is listed. nono no no no NO. leigh fucking alexander. a giant dumb head is becoming the posterchild for games feminism and people are going to fucking defend her. don't defend her, she is dumb. change the focus, change "the leader."

NO, defend leigh alexander while she puts up word poop on her artistically minimalistic blog for idiots.

Why can't people nuance a discussion or an issue *without* necessarily "defending" a person? Why does providing context entail that the person in question is automatically the "leader" of whatever -ism one is subscribing to?

I think you are seeing red when there isn't any of the sort.

 

[dude]

I think gamers also have a hard time realizing that when people criticize how a game deals with female characters or women, it doesn't necessarily mean they think the game is bad, or that it's wrong to like it.

how do we fight the system. we crunch the numbers, mother fucker

I have no idea what you're saying.

Now I'm infomred (AGAIN). Can we do something else now?

Not until things are actually better. You better get used to it though, it's gonna be a while.

 

[BossLackey]

Now I'm infomred (AGAIN). Can we do something else now?

 

[spandexmonkey]

Well, this is what I'm basically hearing: "Hey, feminists, as a privileged man who is totally with you on that all equality.... thing. This is what you should say and do to not piss me and other men off."

What effect were you hoping this statement would have? If your goal is to exclude "privileged" men from participating in your discussion, then I suppose it's going to have some success. Is that really good for your cause though?

A progressive cause should be inclusive, I would think.
"Hey it's cool you have a game with a bad ass guy protagonists, I'd like one of those too!"
"That guy is really smart, I wish this female character was just as smart!"
"This lady is really sexy, I wish this guy was just as sexy!"

These arguments seem reasonable to me and are inclusive. They're not asking me to give up something I may enjoy, but instead ask that they receive equal treatment. I could be encouraged to listen to what you find to be smart, capable or sexy. Perhaps reflect on my own tastes or designs once I know what it is you want.

Your combative rhetoric on the other hand feels like it's trying to exclude men from the conversation. I'll never understand how angry you are, the closest I'll come to feeling the effects of discrimination is from being a latino, but I'm not going to be convinced to listen to you if your only way of doing so is to attack.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I think gamers also have a hard time realizing that when people criticize how a game deals with female characters or women, it doesn't necessarily mean they think the game is bad, or that it's wrong to like it.
.

But we should be condescending and as passive aggressive as possible (that also happens in the other side of the disscusion but is annoying to see moral high grounds were there is little)

 

[Murder. She Wrote]

Now I'm infomred (AGAIN). Can we do something else now?

No? The issue keeps getting brought up because it hasn't gone away.

People like you can forget about this because it's not directed at you. There are many others who have to deal with it every day and they just ignore it.

 

[Portugeezer]

Not until things are actually better. You better get used to it though, it's gonna be a while.

It's not going to get better.

 

[vidcons]

Why can't people nuance a discussion or an issue *without* necessarily "defending" a person? Why does providing context entail that the person in question is automatically the "leader" of whatever -ism one is subscribing to?

I think you are seeing red when there isn't any of the sort.

when the human egg stops being a focal point of every discussion relating to Bitches & Games, i'll stop mentioning ~her importance~

 

[Sblargh]

The point is, you don't make your case by completely dismissing the vast majority of a population. It's as easy as hell to sway people if you're not a condescending prick about it. Leigh's rash generalizations about men and "nerd culture" go against the very thing she is supposedly mad about; i.e. being exclusive and hurtful.

I repeat that I don't know what to do at this point.
You're either familiar with feminism or are you not, and you either agree or you don't, I don't know how someone being angry at something that angers people is what keeping you, unless you are saying that you understand the argument behind the rhetoric, but can't think logically because the rhetoric is bad. Or if you're talking about other people, then I don't know why you are interested on how other people are seeing Leigh Alexander if you disagree with her... or if you agree with her, why are you talking about her instead of using your own nicer rhetoric to talk about the problems you both agree it's real.

And I don't know how she is dismissing anyone, why, by saying that the specific problems women face are a different thing from specific problems the male portion of the nerd culture face. Nobody is saying that white men have perfect lives, they're just shooing you because your soup is that one over there, why you have to land here where all this vinegar is? "Shut up and listen" is a crude way to say that there is a very real lack of compassion going on when you absolutely can't listen to someone talking about her problems without interjecting about yours.

 

[APF]

Because if we disagree with X issue, all of us didn't thought throught about hard enough...

Is that what I said?

I think gamers also have a hard time realizing that when people criticize how a game deals with female characters or women, it doesn't necessarily mean they think the game is bad, or that it's wrong to like it.

Exactly; for some reason there's this knee-jerk reaction that someone's going to take away their games or something along those lines, when most people arguing for more inclusion / more thought about female representation in media just want games to be better.

 

[Ikael]

Anyone wondering if this "topic", that is kinda popular with videogame-"journalists" and bloggers right now could just be a "fad"?

No, not a fad, but rather a more general trend in the media. Jouralism is increasingly focusing and pandering into identity issues and faux outrage causes is easy to explain.

It is safe jouralism, plain and simple. It is the safest, laziest, shittiest kind of journalism:

- You don't need to research shit: since you are not stablishing any kind of dialoge, as elloquently put by Leigh, you don't need any kind of hard info or reserach on your part since your opinión is not going to be contested. Nor by reality either, since reserach tends to question assumptions, rather than refute them. Notice how all these articles are always opinión pieces?

- You don't need to fight for visits: all you need is an opinion that will resonate into your personal echo chamber. The whole "not true because we are enraging a lot of people" argument is laughable. This is as risky as starting a far right blog aimed to the Fox News watchers: you are just catering to your zealot audience by reinforcing their views rather than challenging them.

- You don't need to risk shit: recieving angry emails VS actually getting denied access to press events, posible job opportunities as "industry expert" and loosing advertising revenue? Guess what is safer to critisize as a gaming journalist: the patriarchate or EA? Yup.

Modern journalism is going to keep pandering to politically correct causes and search for heretics rather than actual reporting, simply because it is the safest, easiest bet. And the most futile, too. "Internet blogger feminism," is not about improving equality. It is like smashing laboratories in the name of animal rights: you are the to feed your own ego, and feel like a hero, not to help anyone in the real world.

 

[Sblargh]

No, not a fad, but rather a more general trend in the media. Jouralism is increasingly focusing and pandering into identity issues and faux outrage causes is easy to explain.

It is safe jouralism, plain and simple. It is the safest, laziest, shittiest kind of journalism:

- You don't need to research shit: since you are not stablishing any kind of dialoge, as elloquently put by Leigh, you don't need any kind of hard info or reserach on your part since your opinión is not going to be contested. Nor by reality either, since reserach tends to question assumptions, rather than refute them. Notice how all these articles are always opinión pieces?

- You don't need to fight for visits: all you need is an opinion that will resonate into your personal echo chamber. The whole "not true because we are enraging a lot of people" argument is laughable. This is as risky as starting a far right blog aimed to the Fox News watchers: you are just catering to your zealot audience by reinforcing their views rather than challenging them.

- You don't need to risk shit: recieving angry emails VS actually getting denied access to press events, posible job opportunities as "industry expert" and loosing advertising revenue? Guess what is safer to critisize as a gaming journalist: the patriarchate or EA? Yup.

Modern journalism is going to stick to pandering to politically correct causes rather than actual reporting, simply because it is the safest, easiest bet. And the most futile, too. "Internet blogger feminism," is not about improving equality. It is like smashing laboratories in the name of animal rights: you are the to feed your own ego, and feel like a hero, not to help anyone in the real world.

Since this is a topic about RPS. Is this what you see happening to them?

 

[dude]

What effect were you hoping this statement would have? If your goal is to exclude "privileged" men from participating in your discussion, then I suppose it's going to have some success. Is that really good for your cause though?

A progressive cause should be inclusive, I would think.
"Hey it's cool you have a game with a bad ass guy protagonists, I'd like one of those too!"
"That guy is really smart, I wish this female character was just as smart!"
"This lady is really sexy, I wish this guy was just as sexy!"

These arguments seem reasonable to me and are inclusive. They're not asking me to give up something I may enjoy, but instead ask that they receive equal treatment. I could be encouraged to listen to what you find to be smart, capable or sexy. Perhaps reflect on my own tastes or designs once I know what it is you want.

Your combative rhetoric on the other hand feels like it's trying to exclude men from the conversation. I'll never understand how angry you are, the closest I'll come to feeling the effects of discrimination is from being a latino, but I'm not going to be convinced to listen to you if your only way of doing so is to attack.

I'm not a woman. I know discrimination in other ways. It's just that this subject is very close to me for my own reasons and I tend to take it personally. Sorry if I sometimes seem a tad too aggressive.

I'm not excluding men, obviously, as I am one. But I do believe that we, as men, cannot take ownership of this discourse. That why I didn't like the comments trying to dictate feminist strategy.

But we should be condescending and as passive aggressive as possible (that also happens in the other side of the disscusion but is annoying to see moral high grounds were there is little)

Yeah, well, after having the same argument for the nth time, I try to find my fun. Didn't mean to take the moral high ground here.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Is that what I said?

Well, it seem you implied. Dunno why making psychologicals diagnosis and assumptions in the middle of a discussion about rethoric is a good rethoric tactic?

 

[GrizzNKev]

No, not a fad, but rather a more general trend in the media. Jouralism is increasingly focusing and pandering into identity issues and faux outrage causes is easy to explain.

It is safe jouralism, plain and simple. It is the safest, laziest, shittiest kind of journalism:

- You don't need to research shit: since you are not stablishing any kind of dialoge, as elloquently put by Leigh, you don't need any kind of hard info or reserach on your part since your opinión is not going to be contested. Nor by reality either, since reserach tends to question assumptions, rather than refute them. Notice how all these articles are always opinión pieces?

- You don't need to fight for visits: all you need is an opinion that will resonate into your personal echo chamber. The whole "not true because we are enraging a lot of people" argument is laughable. This is as risky as starting a far right blog aimed to the Fox News watchers: you are just catering to your zealot audience by reinforcing their views rather than challenging them.

- You don't need to risk shit: recieving angry emails VS actually getting denied access to press events, posible job opportunities as "industry expert" and loosing advertising revenue? Guess what is safer to critisize as a gaming journalist: the patriarchate or EA? Yup.

Modern journalism is going to stick to pandering to politically correct causes rather than actual reporting, simply because it is the safest, easiest bet. And the most futile, too. "Internet blogger feminism," is not about improving equality. It is like smashing laboratories in the name of animal rights: you are the to feed your own ego, and feel like a hero, not to help anyone in the real world.

weeoooeeeooo

I like this post

 

[APF]

Well, it seem you implied.

That's what you inferred, although I didn't say it.

 

[mckmas8808]

Generalization aside, I have met quite a number of self-proclaimed "gamers" (even adult people) who champion their time-travelling steampunk murder-simulators as 'art'. The majority of the gaming audience I've come across in my life could definitely use a healthy dose of non-gaming entertainment/art to broaden their subjective tastes, imo.

Haven't you experienced the same thing as well, even here on GAF? I mean, the type of people Alexander is referring to are definitely real. .

But is it because they are gamers or is it just apart of human nature that some people are this way?

 

[Sblargh]

I'm not a woman. I know discrimination in other ways. It's just that this subject is very close to me for my own reasons and I tend to take personally.

I'm not excluding men, obviously, as I am one. But I do believe that we, as men, cannot take ownership of this discourse. That why I didn't like the comments trying to dictate feminist strategy.

If anything, we should be pissed that the very real problems that affect us as gamer boys is used as a cynical tool to derail discussion about the problems of other people. We could be helping some lonely shy 14 year old dude somewhere not commit suicide, instead, we are hijacking his feelings as a political tool.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

That's what you inferred, although I didn't say it.

Come on.

 

[aristotle]

I repeat that I don't know what to do at this point.
You're either familiar with feminism or are you not, and you either agree or you don't, I don't know how someone being angry at something that angers people is what keeping you, unless you are saying that you understand the argument behind the rhetoric, but can't think logically because the rhetoric is bad. Or if you're talking about other people, then I don't know why you are interested on how other people are seeing Leigh Alexander if you disagree with her... or if you agree with her, why are you talking about her instead of using your own nicer rhetoric to talk about the problems you both agree it's real.

And I don't know how she is dismissing anyone, why, by saying that the specific problems women face are a different thing from specific problems the male portion of the nerd culture face. Nobody is saying that white men have perfect lives, they're just shooing you because your soup is that one over there, why you have to land here where all this vinegar is? "Shut up and listen" is a crude way to say that there is a very real lack of compassion going on when you absolutely can't listen to someone talking about her problems without interjecting about yours.

You seem to be reading something I'm not typing. I am FOR equality. Leigh is counter-productive in her own arguments. You can NOT be inclusive when you segregate a vast majority. It's hypocrisy and that's all I was pointing out. If you actually read the few posts I've made in this thread, I've stated more than once I empathize with the movement, but people like Leigh are what will eventually hold it back from gathering mass appeal. The vitriol, condescension, and general apathy toward making it about equality (instead of just females) make her a hypocrite in the words she has chosen to show. She flat out says that since I'm not female I can't see it from her side and I have no say in the matter. How does that help anyone at all?

 

[APF]

Come on.

"Come on" what? What I said was different than what you claim I "seem" to have said. There's not much more to it than that. Breathe.

 

[Delusibeta]

That's what you inferred, although I didn't say it.

You did, actually.

While we're on the subject of cognitive biases I think a lot of anti-feminist-critiques-of-tech/gaming folks (especially in the Dragon's Crown thread, but also in the Tropes thread and elsewhere) are demonstrating reactance when confronted with people posting criticisms of their pastime, favorite games, etc, that they hadn't seriously considered before.

Reactance is a motivational reaction to offers, persons, rules, or regulations that threaten or eliminate specific behavioral freedoms. Reactance occurs when a person feels that someone or something is taking away his or her choices or limiting the range of alternatives.
Reactance can occur when someone is heavily pressured to accept a certain view or attitude. Reactance can cause the person to adopt or strengthen a view or attitude that is contrary to what was intended, and also increases resistance to persuasion.

 

[spandexmonkey]

I'm not excluding men, obviously, as I am one. But I do believe that we, as men, cannot take ownership of this discourse. That why I didn't like the comments trying to dictate feminist strategy.

But men are the ones who mostly need the convincing right, so it's reasonable for them to say, I'm finding it difficult to listen to you if your rhetoric is constantly attacking me. Could you try a different approach, something less hostile, here's some suggestions on how I could be more resceptive. Feminists are not required to obey that advice, but perhaps they can reflect on it some (as they expect men to do with their own arguments) and adjust how they present their case.

It's what athiests say to someone like Richard Dawkins. I know deep down you want to express your rage (it's probably even completely justified), but it's not going to win the war to take a no-compromise position.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

What exactly are you saying here? No one is claiming minorities never succeed or that privileged people can't have it tough. But the problem is that some people are systematically disenfranchised. Are you saying there are no systematical problems right now for minorities, women, queers and other oppressed and disenfranchised people? Because boy, you must live in a different world than me!

Yeah, and people love to point keep point that out, and holding talks, and writing articles, and pointing fingers, and laying blame. What none of them are doing is trying to come up with solutions.

This isn't something where I'm going to snap my fingers and half the men in game development will turn into women and we can all dance and sing about equality. Twenty years ago boys played video games, grew up interested in video games, went to school to learn how to make video games, then got jobs making video games. Expecting there to be some equal split in gender for game development is just ridiculous. In 20 more years when the gender split is more equal that won't be a "win" for the feminist movement, it'll be because girls got interested in games when they were young and decided to pursue it as a career.

The problem with the Leigh Alexanders of the world is that they don't care about your opinion unless its completely in lock step with their own. If you disagree with her, you're a sexist. If you think there is a more productive way they can attain their goal then you're just another priviliged man trying to tell the woman how to act, and a sexist. And frankly, if you just don't care and just want to play some goddamn video games without feeling ashamed, then you're just perpetuate the current inequality and you're a sexist.

I don't care who makes my games, men, women, transgendered, whoever. Just make some goddamn good video games.

 

[Lime]

when the human egg stops being a focal point of every discussion relating to Bitches & Games, i'll stop mentioning ~her importance~

Maybe I don't encounter links or discussions about Leigh Alexander as much as you do? At least I rarely hear about this person, except for an occasional article every second month. Maybe others make her the focal point of Women & Games? I could imagine she doesn't like the amount of hostility she receives (as evidenced by her stance on "communication").

It's not going to get better.

With the amount of stubbornness, opposition, harassment and hostility by one side, one would think so.

But is it because they are gamers or is it just apart of human nature that some people are this way?

I agree with your point. It isn't a general characteristic and I agree that it isn't about being a "gamer" or a "human being". I was simply able to recall similar experiences with that particular type of person that was described.

 

[Folstern]

Generalization aside, I have met quite a number of self-proclaimed "gamers" (even adult people) who champion their time-travelling steampunk murder-simulators as 'art'. The majority of the gaming audience I've come across in my life could definitely use a healthy dose of non-gaming entertainment/art to broaden their subjective tastes, imo.

Haven't you experienced the same thing as well, even here on GAF? I mean, the type of people Alexander is referring to are definitely real.

You can't just make a huge generalization and say "generalization aside." Sorry.

 

[APF]

You did, actually.

No, read the post of mine you quoted. Where did I say, "if you disagree with X issue, you didn't thought throught about hard enough..." Reactance is not "disagreement," nor did I say everyone is doing this.

 

[GrizzNKev]

You seem to be reading something I'm not typing. I am FOR equality. Leigh is counter-productive in her own arguments. You can NOT be inclusive when you segregate a vast majority. It's hypocrisy and that's all I was pointing out. If you actually read the few posts I've made in this thread, I've stated more than once I empathize with the movement, but people like Leigh are what will eventually hold it back from gathering mass appeal. The vitriol, condescension, and general apathy toward making it about equality (instead of just females) make her a hypocrite in the words she has chosen to show. She flat out says that since I'm not female I can't see it from her side and I have no say in the matter. How does that help anyone at all?

I think most people should know by now that Leigh is a loud-mouthed, obnoxious, self-centered person who absolutely loves spouting stupidity for the sake of engaging in some sort of conflict at all times.

This is simply her newest platform.

(It's ok though, I'm ready for her to call me sexist because I used female pronouns.)

 

[dude]

But men are the ones who mostly need the convincing right, so it's reasonable for them to say, I'm finding it difficult to listen to you if your rhetoric is constantly attacking me. Could you try a different approach, something less hostile, here's some suggestions on how I could be more resceptive. Feminists are not required to obey that advice, but perhaps they can reflect on it some (as they expect men to do with their own arguments) and adjust how they present their case.

It's what athiests say to someone like Richard Dawkins. I know deep down you want to express your rage (it's probably even completely justified), but it's not going to win the war to take a no-compromise position.

But no one is attacking men... There are attacks against aspects of gamer culture which is mostly male. Who here, at any point, attacked men? or was even hostile to them?

Yeah, and people love to point keep point that out, and holding talks, and writing articles, and pointing fingers, and laying blame. What none of them are doing is trying to come up with solutions.

This isn't something where I'm going to snap my fingers and half the men in game development will turn into women and we can all dance and sing about equality. Twenty years ago boys played video games, grew up interested in video games, went to school to learn how to make video games, then got jobs making video games. Expecting there to be some equal split in gender for game development is just ridiculous. In 20 more years when the gender split is more equal that won't be a "win" for the feminist movement, it'll be because girls got interested in games when they were young and decided to pursue it as a career.

The problem with the Leigh Alexanders of the world is that they don't care about your opinion unless its completely in lock step with their own. If you disagree with her, you're a sexist. If you think there is a more productive way they can attain their goal then you're just another priviliged man trying to tell the woman how to act, and a sexist. And frankly, if you just don't care and just want to play some goddamn video games without feeling ashamed, then you're just perpetuate the current inequality and you're a sexist.

I don't care who makes my games, men, women, transgendered, whoever. Just make some goddamn good video games.

Well, one of the reasons there are not many women in video games is that the industry is not very friendly to women - There are many many anecdotes to back this up. And again, the figures in the gaming industry are low even compared to other similar fields - So it's not just that the occupation is considered as non-feminine.

As for the second part... If you do not demand that that the industry change its tune, you are letting it continue on as it is. So it's not far fetched for people like Leigh Alexander to say that if you "just want to play video games" by silencing criticism you're perpetuate the current inequality.

 

[Delusibeta]

No, read the post of mine you quoted. Where did I say, "if you disagree with X issue, you didn't thought throught about hard enough..."

When you said that the people who disagree with you are demonstrating reactance, you are also saying that people who disagree with you haven't thought about it hard enough.

 

[Lime]

She flat out says that since I'm not female I can't see it from her side and I have no say in the matter. How does that help anyone at all?

Just like white people have extreme difficulty knowing how it is to be a black person in American society, so is it very hard for men to know how it is for a woman in a marginalizing and discriminatory environment. Note that I'm not agreeing with the undiplomatic rhetorics (although I understand her motivations), I'm just explaining this to you.

You can't just make a huge generalization and say "generalization aside." Sorry.

No need to say sorry I didn't say *all* X are Y. I just stated that I can recall the type of person mentioned in that particular quote and I've encountered such behaviour and worldview plenty of times. I would never ever say all "gamers" are like this.