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[pinkurocket]

I'm just curious....

When Apple does something like this its innovation. When others do it its copying...

Touchpad on the back of the device thats capacitive...Vita copying the DS Touchpad.
Apple using capacitive screens instead of resistive for their first iPhone...innovative.

One isnt copying.... one is. This all gets so confusing depending on the position some ppl take.

But I have in the past compared Apple fans and Nintendo fans. Some similarities with both groups..

And I agree with the post talking about invention and innovation. Sometimes they can have the same and different definitions..at the same time.

And I think Sony has been in the phone, smartphone, TV business long enough that any screen tech they come up with, use can have their own lil spin on it...and not be considered copying. IMO.

Apple using a capacitive touchscreen for the iPhone was more like a necessity to make a device existing of one big screen usable. Vita using a capacitive panel felt like a gimmick and useless most of the time.

True 'innovation' in tech comes from taking technology that's not conventional, and making it work. There were handhelds with a touchscreen before the DS, but none managed to make it work. There were phones with a touchscreen before the iPhone, but they were clunky and had awkward interfaces whereas Apple really innovated with a touch interface (which was only possible with a capacitive screen).

 

[Refreshment.01]

I'm just curious....

When Apple does something like this its innovation. When others do it its copying...

Touchpad on the back of the device thats capacitive...Vita
Apple using capacitive screens instead of resistive for their first iPhone...innovative.

One isnt copying.... one is. This all gets so confusing depending on the position some ppl take.

But I have in the past compared Apple fans and Nintendo fans. Some similarities with both groups..

And I agree with the post talking about invention and innovation. Sometimes they can have the same and different definitions..at the same time.

And I think Sony has been in the phone, smartphone, TV business long enough that any screen tech they come up with, use can have their own lil spin on it...and not be considered copying. IMO.

i agree, Apple is often presented as an innovator. When sometimes they just refine an existing idea. However, Nintendo's influence in gaming interfaces is undeniable even if they have achieved that without inventing new technologies.

In regards to the DS vs Vita touchpad. Look at it in terms of functionality. The DS systems have had touch pad functionality since 2004. That the technology powering the touchpad is different doesn't have much bearing in the input function at it's base. Resistive was readly available earlier and is more precise, while capacitive is finger friendly (which has it fare share of advantages) but was available later.

Basically Sony adds a feature after a competitor. Some times with an spin, sometimes without it. And you know what? Is as valid and a good strategy as been the innovator. Results speak for themselves.

The DS4 is a controller that incorporated similar features to the Gamepad in a cost effective way. A standard 3.5 mm headphone jack (first in 3DO but later abandoned), Speaker and a Trackpad.

Interesting, thanks for the info! Definitelly seems like the Dual Analog was announced first, also concidering that the NG-guy compares it to Immersion's controller.

Here's the US patent for the Rumble pak, we can use that date as a guide:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6200253

Now, we need to track a Sony's patent and compare that. Even if they got sued for patent infringement there should be some documentation about their implementation of feedback.

Hardware performance is not a goal, it is a start. It is the enabler for software developers and content creators creativity perhaps more than just a hardware gimmick or so where someone made a decisions for you and in otlrder to get noticed you need to think around that gimmick.

Definitely in agreement.

However, this is viewed in a very narrow way and that's what i was trying to point out. It is often taught that technology in console hardware = higher capacity CPUs and GPUs. These capabilities might be an enabler but it is often used as an enabler for higher fidelity visuals, not neccesarily game related innovations.

For example, technology such as motion controls have proven to be an enabler for new experiences as much as an incremental upgrade in hardware processing, in some cases even more.

 

[Skittzo0413]

This is what I don't get. What hype? What has Nintendo done to create hype for this machine? They have repeatedly said it isn't ready to show yet. That's it. Nobody has been out there Keighley-ing this thing, stating it's the greatest thing ever. All Miyamoto said was that they didn't want somebody to copy their idea.

Where in the world is this notion of "hype" coming from?

Yeah it's self induced hype if anything. Nintendo's silence isn't helping, but it's essentially us hyping up the NX based on various little quotes we are finding around the place.

Nintendo has done almost nothing to talk it up at this point.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sorry, are you saying the DS originally planned to use a capacitive screen?

I meant resistive... D'oh.

 

[IronStarX]

I'm starting to think that the 'new way to play' statement coupled with this statement about holding NX back from E3 due to Microsoft/Sony copying points to Nintendo releasing something with a new controller type rather than a 'Hybrid' system of some sort.

I'm leaning towards something along the lines of what HTC is doing with the Vive controllers. Two hands, 1:1 motion capture. However the caveat being that they are fully fleshed out console controllers with joysticks, traditional button setup, triggers, rumble. The interesting thing will be to see if Nintendo also makes it capable to be joined together in the middle to form a normal controller when wanted vs the free-form.

What sources do I have? None. Nintendo fanboy here making fanboyish assumptions. But follow me here..

They did not want to reveal at E3 due to copycats? If it was a hybrid console, why would that matter? Microsoft, and Sony to a lesser extent, do not have the Handheld infrastructure built out to support hybrid systems of thier own with thier current home console. Yes Vita is there, but to a much smaller install base than the 3DS, and Sony has never really been invested in truly combining the PS4 and Vita to the extent that has been discussed with the NX. Microsoft would have to announce a handheld lol. Point being it would take years for either to mimic a 'hybrid' NX.

The VR statement Nintendo has also made about still not being sure about VR has to stem from R&D and thier own VR prototypes. There should be no doubt Nintendo has its own VR, it would be gross negligence not to. Within this they would have to have realized two things: VR will be the future in some way, and two, to make any VR gaming platform successful, you need to have controllers that are built for VR environments, full gyroscopic, 1:1 motion. However, what they also learned with the Wii, and here is the Nintendo fanboy in me, is that gamers still want thier traditional controller inputs. Joysticks for movement, buttons for inputs etc.

It would be the mixing of whats best of both worlds. Nintendo knows it has to be first to the VR game, and in a big way and at the right time. Right now is not the right time but in order to get there and be successful when they do..the controller must be perfected generations before any true Nintendo VR attempt.

I have no other idea what Nintendo could be doing that is so secretive that you risk not giving a new console enough of a runway before a major launch.

Give me this, a ps4+ power console, dedicated online marketplace, a steady stream of Nintendo software, and consider this the right steps to regain the 'core' Nintendo player they are aiming for.

 

[richman555]

I think one thing is clear, Microsoft and Sony would love to take all the air out of Nintendo's 'balloon' early. Ninty is probably thinking back to the Wii when both Sony and Microsoft both embraced motion gaming.

 

[LordRaptor]

I'm leaning towards something along the lines of what HTC is doing with the Vive controllers. Two hands, 1:1 motion capture. However the caveat being that they are fully fleshed out console controllers with joysticks, traditional button setup, triggers, rumble. The interesting thing will be to see if Nintendo also makes it capable to be joined together in the middle to form a normal controller when wanted vs the free-form.

If they were doing that, why not go all the way and let you clamp them to an existing screen you may already own?

Download an app, blam, your iphone / android phone goes into receiver mode and receives visual input from the controller hooked via USB.
Yeah, I liked the WiiU pad, so sue me.

 

[jroc74]

Apple using a capacitive touchscreen for the iPhone was more like a necessity to make a device existing of one big screen usable. Vita using a capacitive panel felt like a gimmick and useless most of the time.

True 'innovation' in tech comes from taking technology that's not conventional, and making it work. There were handhelds with a touchscreen before the DS, but none managed to make it work. There were phones with a touchscreen before the iPhone, but they were clunky and had awkward interfaces whereas Apple really innovated with a touch interface (which was only possible with a capacitive screen).

My question is this: what would work better on the back of a Vita? Resistive or capacitive?

Because the DS used resistive and even til now Nintendo handhelds still use resistive. If Apple can switch screen types and its innovative. I feel Sony going with capacitive isn't copying.

I orig responded to those saying remote play was copying the Wii U or Sony and MS copied the Wii U here n there. Some stayed with that, some took it to they have copied Nintendo since the beginning of time. Controller features, layout....I can agree on that. But not everything.

As far as phones before the iPhone being clunky...resistive and capacitive have pros n cons. Going for all touch? No stylus, capacitive was better. Using mixed stylus and touch? Resistive was better. At the time anyway. Might have been the only way at that time too.

Apple going for the bigger UI interface was the best move. I agree about that and them innovating smartphones. The tech has evolved enough where you can use styles and capacitive together now.

-snip-

I agree with alot of this. Just trying to figure out the stance some have. I don't wanna derail the topic any further concerning Apple, but I will just say I don't agree with the way some view them. I do give them props where they deserves it tho. Or try to anyway...lol.

 

[IronStarX]

If they were doing that, why not go all the way and let you clamp them to an existing screen you may already own?

Download an app, blam, your iphone / android phone goes into receiver mode and receives visual input from the controller hooked via USB.
Yeah, I liked the WiiU pad, so sue me.

Lol that doesn't allow for full motion control and secondly Nintendo isn't going to quit the hardware console business.

 

[LordRaptor]

Lol that doesn't allow for full motion control and secondly Nintendo isn't going to quit the hardware console business.

I didn't say they were - I;m saying if they are making their default controller 2 seperate controllers like dual nunchuks with the wii, with an optional connector in the middle, it wouldn't be hard to extrapolate that into letting the optional connector in the middle be a cradle for a smartphone or tablet, and allow WiiU functionality as well.

 

[Aroll]

Nintendo's silence is understandable. The hype for this comes from small quotes from devs, like cd projekt red who basically admitted that they know things about the NX, they love it, it won't be Xbox Scorpio level for power but it's not terra bad either, etc. stuff like this drives hype for a device we know nothing about, especially coming from a Dev that typically doesn't release games on Nintendo's platforms.

 

[Asd202]

Nintendo's silence is understandable. The hype for this comes from small quotes from devs, like cd projekt red who basically admitted that they know things about the NX, they love it, it won't be Xbox Scorpio level for power but it's not terra bad either, etc. stuff like this drives hype for a device we know nothing about, especially coming from a Dev that typically doesn't release games on Nintendo's platforms.

lol not this again.

 

[IronStarX]

I didn't say they were - I;m saying if they are making their default controller 2 seperate controllers like dual nunchuks with the wii, with an optional connector in the middle, it wouldn't be hard to extrapolate that into letting the optional connector in the middle be a cradle for a smartphone or tablet, and allow WiiU functionality as well.

Or thier next handheld?

 

[test_account]

Here's the US patent for the Rumble pak, we can use that date as a guide:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6200253

Now, we need to track a Sony's patent and compare that. Even if they got sued for patent infringement there should be some documentation about their implementation of feedback.

Well, your claim earlier was that Sony was looking at the N64 controller and took the idea from Rumble Pak that was announced some months before. You also said that the Dual Analog was a good example of how ideas could be incorporated fast, and thats why its not smart to publically announce things too early. Flak57 showed that the Dual Analog was actually announced about 3 weeks before the Rumble Pak.

Basically Sony saw the N64 controller and started working in adding analog functionality to their base control. Some months later, the Rumble Pack accessory was unveiled and it wasn't too much trouble for Sony to include a rumble motor in there without any meaningful alterations to the design.

I also think that would be hard to find concider that patents can be quite vague, but if Sony was looking at this patent back then and copied this idea, that will just be speculation though. That said, it would be interesting to know, but i dont think we can draw anything conclusive from such thing. Kinda like speculating if Nintendo got the Wii controller idea from Sony's Move demostration back in 2001 or something. Its possible, but its really hard to draw a conclusion that this is what inspired them.

 

[Koren]

Resistive was readly available earlier and is more precise, while capacitive is finger friendly (which has it fare share of advantages) but was available later.

Capacitive is actually the older tech.

I'm even pretty sure that old touch kiosks in shops/train stations in the 90s were capacitive and not resistive.

Both were awfully imprecise at the end of the last century, but resistive fared far better. When PDA and similar devices started to emerge, stylus interaction was the aim, so resistive was the norm. When Apple decided to ditch writing for finger interaction, capacitive was a logical choice (especially when multipoint is easier on capacitive).

Those were logical choices, as you say in Apple iPhone case. Vita back is an obvious case of capacitive being better (you'll never need precision, but you need multipoint and finger control). For front and DS, all depends on what you want to do with the touch screen... I'm leaning towards the idea that resistive is better for DS, but that's a matter of taste.

 

[qko]

I think one thing is clear, Microsoft and Sony would love to take all the air out of Nintendo's 'balloon' early. Ninty is probably thinking back to the Wii when both Sony and Microsoft both embraced motion gaming.

Actually, at first Sony and Microsoft ignored it, then expressed they were not interested in the idea and then began to tell people "the Wii is a good complementary console to our console", and then just outright did their own version of motion control.

Xbox was the only one that pulled a quick concept with Smartglass after the Wii U was announced with the Gamepad. But stage one of ignoring it was somewhat successful. Later Sony demonstrated remote Play with the Vita.

I'm betting if it's a gimmick or a concept Sony/Microsoft cannot immediately include it will be ignored. If it begins to become too popular to ignore they'll consider it.

 

[SDF-1]

I wonder if Nintendo doubled down on their streaming r&d from the Wii U and made a portable device capable of streaming content to multiple devices. I'm thinking like the Wii U, but the base console sits in your pocket. They sell it with a 3DS like receiver thats just a dumb device. You can pair other user's phones as well using an app or other official receivers for multiplayer. The NX platform is then upgradable along either the display/input tech or processing tech paths independently.

 

[Koren]

Kinda like speculating if Nintendo got the Wii controller idea from Sony's Move demostration back in 2001 or something. Its possible

It's not possible.

Sega execs said before PS2 launch that they feared the Gamecube motion controller more than PS2 (they were both right and wrong, considering PS2 then Wii success).

Factor 5 also said that Rogue Squadron on GC was a motion-controlled game at first, then converted to traditional control. They even said old Rogue Squadron code was used later for Lair.

There's plently of things that say that GC should have had a motion controller, that was only ditched because the tech wasn't good enough (and Wii should have been an accessory, but it arrived too late in GC life, so a new console was more logical).


I mean, look at the GC launch games! Monkeyball as a motion-control game would have been an obvious choice. Rogue Squadran was motion-controlled. I suspect Waverace would have been, too.

Not to say they *invented* motion control, even for video games, but they were definitively working on it in the 90s.

 

[TI82]

Not to say they *invented* motion control, even for video games, but they were definitively working on it in the 90s.

Any proof of that? Only thing we know is around 2001 2002 they were the last option for the Wii patents

 

[Refreshment.01]

Well, your claim earlier was that the Rumble Pak was announced in April 1996, months before the unveiling of the Dual Analog and that Sony took the idea from the N64 controller since it was not something that would be hard to incorporate. And also that this was a good example of announcing things early shows that things could be copied fast.

We need to get facts straight since the above post is worded in a way that mix up the context of my statements and tries to demerit the point about how Sony did react to the N64 controller:

1. i don't think i said it was April 96. As far as i remember i said Shoshinkai 96. If i did Link me to the post, else it is a fabrication.
2. My claim was not about rumble alone, it was about both about Thumbstick control and Rumble.
3. It doesn't disaprove that Sony did take the idea for the thumbstick from the N64 controller and quite possible rumble.

I also think that would be hard to find concider that patents can be quite vague, but if Sony was looking at this patent back then and copied that will just be speculation though. That said, it would be interesting to know, but i dont think we can draw anything conclusive from such thing. Kinda like speculating if Nintendo got the Wii controller idea from Sony's Move demostration back in 2001 or something. Its possible, but its really hard to draw a conclusion that this is what inspired them.

No you see. We have both a patent and hindsight here and it shows who was actually working in feedback technology for their next system. Talking about the unveil and public availability would be valid if we didn't have other things to consider, but we have in this specific case.

The likely scenario is that Sony caught wind of the fact that Nintendo was working on force feedback and it was a pretty simple feature to add to their own thumbstick controller that was inpired by the N64.

Had Sony been actively pursuing force feedback it would have been a feature that was been worked on at some stage in console development and would have been included either in the original PSX controller or much earlier than the Rumble Pak.

Sony arrived a lot earlier to the 5th generation (December 1994). It's quite a coincidence to have their vibrating analogue controller 2 1/2 years later at the exact same time of Star Fox 64 XD

About your Move example, what does it proof exactly? Was the PS3 controller a wand like motion sensing controller? No, it was a Dual Shock with an added IMU after the Wii Remote unveil. Further again proving the point.

Here's an example on how unveil and public availabilty shouldn't be considered in a vaccum. Sega's 3D Pad. Sega didn't had that control method in mind when conceiving the Saturn, else that would have been their main controller. Yet they had enough time to cook up that analogue controller to the point of almost matching the street date of the N64. This doesn't mean Sega wasn't reacting to the N64 thought. Now, this example matches 1:1 what happened with Sony's Dual Analogue.

 

[Theanine3D]

I mean, look at the GC launch games! Monkeyball as a motion-control game would have been an obvious choice. Rogue Squadran was motion-controlled. I suspect Waverace would have been, too.

Not to say they *invented* motion control, even for video games, but they were definitively working on it in the 90s.

That makes a lot of sense. Luigi's Mansion was also a launch game, and it wouldn't surprise me if controlling the Poltergust with motion controls was a thing at one point.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Considering Sony got the SixAxis incorporated into the PS3 as soon as they could after the Wiimote was shown, if they have a gimmicky but less elaborate than the Wii U controller in the works, this makes sense to me.

 

[test_account]

It's not possible.

Sega execs said before PS2 launch that they feared the Gamecube motion controller more than PS2 (they were both right and wrong, considering PS2 then Wii success).

Factor 5 also said that Rogue Squadron on GC was a motion-controlled game at first, then converted to traditional control. They even said old Rogue Squadron code was used later for Lair.

There's plently of things that say that GC should have had a motion controller, that was only ditched because the tech wasn't good enough (and Wii should have been an accessory, but it arrived too late in GC life, so a new console was more logical).


I mean, look at the GC launch games! Monkeyball as a motion-control game would have been an obvious choice. Rogue Squadran was motion-controlled. I suspect Waverace would have been, too.

Not to say they *invented* motion control, even for video games, but they were definitively working on it in the 90s.

I'm not thinking about motion controls in general, but the specific idea of how to do motion controls (speaking of Sega and motion controller, they had it themself back in the early 90s with the Sega Activator).

Do you have any more info regarding which type of motion controller the Gamecube was originally planned to have? Based on games like Super Monkey Ball and Rogue Squadron, it sounds more in the vein of some sixaxis type of controller to me. Microsoft had the SideWinder Freestyle Pro controller in 1998 with that type of motion control, so such idea wasnt really unheard of even back in the days. But any more info would be interesting to read.

 

[Koren]

Any proof of that? Only thing we know is around 2001 2002 they were the last option for the Wii patents

Just to be clear, 90s may be 98-99...

Look for example for Eggebrecht interviews... They said they worked with a motion controller for Rogue Squadron 2. It can't be after 2000, and I don't believe Nintendo went from the idea of a motion controller to give prototypes to 3rd party in a couple of months.

Besides, it would actually have been strange if they were NOT working on motion control at this time. I mean, Powerglove (among other devices) already had motion sensing, and Microsoft released a "motion control" joypad (Sidewinder Freestyle Pro) in 1998. Nintendo has a division that plays with any kind of technology that can be used in video games, that's a pretty normal thing to study. After that, it's an exec job to decide which tech should be made into a product.

 

[Koren]

I'm not thinking about motion controls in general, but the specific idea of how to do motion controls

You're talking about pointing control using beacons ? I don't think indeed this was the idea at first, and that it evolved from the fact that accelerometers gave unsatisfactory results.

(speaking of Sega and motion controller, they had it themself back in the early 90s with the Sega Activator).

I know. In fact, there's plently of motion control devices in the 80s-90s from many makers. Several using beacons, and several on NES, so I can't think they discovered the idea when Sony talked about it. Even more so when it was a common idea (I mean, I actually worked on the same idea as a school assignment in 2001... I hope Nintendo engineers are at least at the level of graduate students)

Do you have any more info regarding which type of motion controller the Gamecube was originally planned to have? Based on games like Super Monkey Ball and Rogue Squadron, it sounds more in the vein of some sixaxis type of controller to me.

As I said above, most probably (about Sidewinder, you replied while I was writing my previous post, I fully agree).

I'm pretty sure all makers try everything just in case something work well. For example, I easily believe that Project Venus (the Game Gear replacement that was finally turned into Nomad) had a touch screen for one of its prototype...

 

[Fourth Storm]

If we're referring to Osiris Black, he said that ports from PS4/X1 were not difficult at all. It's the most solid lead on it being "stronger." Outside of the odd rumors suggesting that it's actually closer to the Neo, which have largely been discredited.

I'm still very skeptical of the narrative emerging that it's only a handheld, given that all hints previously were to a console and that the handheld was barely spoken of.

No problem. His name is OsirisBlack:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=203600121&postcount=992

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=203631027&postcount=1390

"Nintendo will be fine.

To add context to my previous post (I was asked via PM) without going into too much detail any game that runs on the XB1 or PS4 should run on the NX with little to no issue. What developers choose to or not to port to the console will more than likely depend on consumer support for the thing."

Thanks, I remember that now. Yeah, that can be seen to back up the rumors of power around Xbox One level. I guess we can say that it's a bit more than just a handheld w/ HDMI out at least.

That is exactly what I don't want nor do I expect it.

I'd love a powerful Nintendo console, but I don't expect it. I really want another innovation in controls. Hoping for a split controller, but not banking on one.

 

[test_account]

We need to get facts straight since the above post is worded in a way that mix up the context of my statements and tries to demerit the point about how Sony did react to the N64 controller:

1. i don't think i said it was April 96. As far as i remember i said Shoshinkai 96. If i did Link me to the post, else it is a fabrication.
2. My claim was not about rumble alone, it was about both about Thumbstick control and Rumble.
3. It doesn't disaprove that Sony did take the idea for the thumbstick from the N64 controller and quite possible rumble.

You first said that it was publically know months before April 1996 that the N64 would have haptic feedback:

Basically it was publically known that Nintendo was launching an Haptic feedback accessory for the N64 months before the April 1996 release. Sony got enough time to put out a version of the feature just in time to market.

I did however edited my post before you replied, thinking maybe it was a typo and was suppose to say 1997 instead, so i rewrote that part of my post.

I dont feel that the analog stick arguement takes anything out of context in this case because the focus was on rumble. The initial post (my post) that you replied to did after all only red'ed/highlighted the rumble part, not the dual analog part. Then MDave quoted me and said that the Dual Analog didnt have rumble, only mentioning rumble, then you replied the quote i mentioned earlier. The N64 analog stick was well known publically before the Dual Analog, so i dont think anyone is disbuting that Sony (and Sega as you mention) most likely got the idea from that. But its no problem that you also mentioned the analog sticks in that reply of course, just saying that this wasnt the focus, at least not for me.

But fair enough, i'm not out to point fingers, i just wanted to state what the arguement earlier was based around

No you see. We have both a patent and hindsight here and it shows who was actually working in feedback technology for their next system. Talking about the unveil and public availability would be valid if we didn't have other things to consider, but we have in this specific case.

The likely scenario is that Sony caught wind of the fact that Nintendo was working on force feedback and it was a pretty simple feature to add to their own thumbstick controller that was inpired by the N64.

Had Sony been actively pursuing force feedback it would have been a feature that was been worked on at some stage in console development and would have been included either in the original PSX controller or much earlier than the Rumble Pak.

Sony arrived a lot earlier to the 5th generation (December 1994). It's quite a coincidence to have their vibrating analogue controller 2 1/2 years later at the exact same time of Star Fox 64 XD

Its definitelly possible, and maybe likely as well. I'm just saying that this will be more on the speculation side of things. Its not a case of where something is publically unveiled, where its easier to draw conclusion to that other companies takes from such known ideas. The Rumble Pak is also an accessory, not something that was built in with the system from day one. We can also speculate around why that is.

About your Move example, what does it proof exactly? Was the PS3 controller a wand like motion sensing controller? No, it was a Dual Shock with an added IMU after the Wii Remote unveil. Further again proving the point. It was about what inspired the different things.

Here's an example on how unveil and public availabilty shouldn't be considered in a vaccum. Sega's 3D Pad. Sega didn't had that control method in mind when conceiving the Saturn, else that would have been their main controller. Yet they had enough time to cook up that analogue controller to the point of almost matching the street date of the N64. This doesn't mean Sega wasn't reacting to the N64 thought.

Not talking about the PS3, but early Eyetoy concepts showing a wand-like thing being tracked by a camera, and being incorporated into gameplay. And exactly, the point was indeed about what inspired different things

But anyway, who got the inspiration from who is not something that i really care much about other than having info about it. Someone has to be first with something, everyone cant reinvent the wheel everytime either, so the 2nd and 3rd etc.. usually build further on existing ideas. There is no denying that Nintendo has been very good with their ideas and that many has built further upon that. Nintendo is also building further upon things that others have done.

 

[Snakeyes]

Thanks, I remember that now. Yeah, that can be seen to back up the rumors of power around Xbox One level. I guess we can say that it's a bit more than just a handheld w/ HDMI out at least.

Why would it be a handheld with HDMI out? Iwata mentioned a family of systems, and there's not much of a family if you got one device doing everything at once.

 

[LAA]

Seems stupid move to me either way.
Is it worth missing out on revealing it at arguably the biggest games conference, to avoid competitors copying it, which in either case, if they feel it's worth copying, they can and they will and Nintendo can't stop that.
Doubt it is as big as they're making it out to be, tbh, but we'll see if they can prove me wrong. Even if it is big, I sadly can't see it appealing to mass consumers.

 

[test_account]

You're talking about pointing control using beacons ? I don't think indeed this was the idea at first, and that it evolved from the fact that accelerometers gave unsatisfactory results.

No, i just mean that if Sega feared GC's motion controls, it could be a different type of motion control than what we saw from the earlier Eyetoy ideas where they used a wand-like thing that got tracked by the camera.

I know. In fact, there's plently of motion control devices in the 80s-90s from many makers. Several using beacons, and several on NES, so I can't think they discovered the idea when Sony talked about it. Even more so when it was a common idea (I mean, I actually worked on the same idea as a school assignment in 2001... I hope Nintendo engineers are at least at the level of graduate students)

True. Yeah, i didnt mean discover, just saying that it can be speculated in if that stuff was an inspiraton (not motion controls in general, but that specific Eyetoy stuff concept). I mean, i think its pretty safe to assume that the Wii-controller is what inspired Sony to make the Move, eventhough that they had experimented with that before the released of the Wii.

As I said above, most probably (about Sidewinder, you replied while I was writing my previous post, I fully agree).

I'm pretty sure all makers try everything just in case something work well. For example, I easily believe that Project Venus (the Game Gear replacement that was finally turned into Nomad) had a touch screen for one of its prototype...

Indeed. They most likely try out different ideas and see what works and not Then its also a matter of costs.

 

[Oregano]

Seems stupid move to me either way.
Is it worth missing out on revealing it at arguably the biggest games conference, to avoid competitors copying it, which in either case, if they feel it's worth copying, they can and they will and Nintendo can't stop that.
Doubt it is as big as they're making it out to be, tbh, but we'll see if they can prove me wrong. Even if it is big, I sadly can't see it appealing to mass consumers.

I think it comes down to the fact that MS and Sony are releasing Scorpio and Neo respectively. Nintendo doesn't care if they copy their gimmick later, what they don't want is MS and Sony to integrate it into their new systems from day one. Systems that are also going to be more powerful and have more support by default.

 

[LordRaptor]

Seems stupid move to me either way.
Is it worth missing out on revealing it at arguably the biggest games conference, to avoid competitors copying it, which in either case, if they feel it's worth copying, they can and they will and Nintendo can't stop that.
Doubt it is as big as they're making it out to be, tbh, but we'll see if they can prove me wrong. Even if it is big, I sadly can't see it appealing to mass consumers.

E3 isn't for "mass consumers" though.
If they really do need to show off whatever they have at a primarily american conference, CES is more mass consumer focussed.
Likewise if they need to show it at a specifically gaming focused conference, TGS or Gamescom work just as well - arguably better in fact as they are open to the public - as E3 does.

And that's assuming that in the year 2016 you can't have hundreds of hours on youtube doing a full breakdown while putting demo kiosks in retailers for the public to play and achieve as great or greater public awareness.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Why would it be a handheld with HDMI out? Iwata mentioned a family of systems, and there's not much of a family if you got one device doing everything at once.

Just trying to piece some rumors together. Iwata made that comment before the NX concept was finalized. Everything we've heard since the NX announcement last year has referred to it as a single machine. It's possible Iwata held out higher hopes for Wii U when he talked about the "family of systems" and its spectacular failure caused him to reconsider. His words were that he was "not sure" if they would only need one system and that would be decided by the market. Perhaps 2013/2014 sales showed him all he needed to see.

I could be wrong, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment. I've been following the news pretty closely and, I'll be honest, my predictions have been pretty fluid.

 

[Plinko]

Just trying to piece some rumors together. Iwata made that comment before the NX concept was finalized. Everything we've heard since the NX announcement last year has referred to it as a single machine.

I could be wrong, but that's what I'm thinking at the moment. I've been following the news pretty closely and, I'll be honest, my predictions have been pretty fluid.

Unless that was a wireless HDMI connection, that would be a colossal disaster.

Whomever above mentioned the idea of getting the console to play nice with phones might be on to something. That could be something the other competitors may want to copy, and it might go over pretty big.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I did however edited my post before you replied, thinking maybe it was a typo and was suppose to say 1997 instead, so i rewrote that part of my post.

A typo indeed XD

Not talking about the PS3, but early Eyetoy concepts showing a wand-like thing being tracked by a camera, and being incorporated into gameplay.

i knew exactly what were you talking about. Is the video with Richard Marks tracking a colored ball on a stick. Something that Sony didn't consider to integrate much into their input solutions until after the Wii.

But anyway, who got the inspiration from who is not something that i really care much about other than having info about it. Someone has to be first with something, everyone cant reinvent the wheel everytime either, so the 2nd and 3rd etc.. usually build further on existing ideas. There is no denying that Nintendo has been very good with their ideas and that many has built further upon that. Nintendo is also building further upon things that others have done.

In agreement.

Unless that was a wireless HDMI connection, that would be a colossal disaster.

Whomever above mentioned the idea of getting the console to play nice with phones might be on to something. That could be something the other competitors may want to copy, and it might go over pretty big.

i was speculating just that in one of the Hybrid threads. An striiped down version of their handheld that could use smartphone features to play it's games.

Link:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=208529109

As an aside, i proposed an even cheaper stripped down version of the handheld that could be connected to Smartphones to use it's features (Screen, Wifi, Speakers, etc), as an even lower barrier of entry to Nintendo's ecosystem. But it's a rough idea, i have as of now, but im going on a tangent here.

 

[Koren]

No, i just mean that if Sega feared GC's motion controls, it could be a different type of motion control than what we saw from the earlier Eyetoy ideas where they used a wand-like thing that got tracked by the camera.

That's most probably the case (and the fact that it was working barely better than the awful Sidewinder was probably the reason it was ditched).

Camera tracking (and positionning) was common at this time, though, and there's not really reasons why Sony presentation would have been more inspirational than those many research articles from the late 90s (and also several tracking techniques using beacons such as Powerglove tech).

I mean, my own PhD was about 3D hand tracking using cameras, and was suggested in first half of 2001...

Indeed. They most likely try out different ideas and see what works and not Then its also a matter of costs.

That's the rumored reason for ditching the Sega touch-screen handheld, too, among others.

 

[test_account]

A typo indeed XD

At first i was thinking maybe you ment the release on the N64 console itself, but then i looked it up and see that it was June 1996, so i figured it had to be about April 1997 with the release of Star Fox 64 and Dual Analog

i knew exactly what were you talking about. Is the video with Richard Marks tracking a colored ball on a stick. Something that Sony didn't consider to integrate much into their input solutions until after the Wii.

Sure. I would say without a doubt that the Wii-controller is the inspiration for the Move. Eventhough Sony experimented with it before the announcement of the Wii, it is the Wii what made Sony make the Move. What i ment earlier is that i think its hard to know if companies get their ideas from other companies patents, and its more about speculation since its harder to know for sure, just like it can be speculated in that if Nintendo got some inspiration from Sony regarding their Eyetoy stuff. I have no idea how likely that is just to point that out, it was more of a though regarding where the different companies get some of their inspiration from.

In agreement.

That's most probably the case (and the fact that it was working barely better than the awful Sidewinder was probably the reason it was ditched).

Camera tracking (and positionning) was common at this time, though, and there's not really reasons why Sony presentation would have been more inspirational than those many research articles from the late 90s (and also several tracking techniques using beacons such as Powerglove tech).

I mean, my own PhD was about 3D hand tracking using cameras, and was suggested in first half of 2001...

Yeah, thats true. It was more of a point regarding speculation (i wrote a bit more detailed above here). I dont know how likely it is.

That's the rumored reason for ditching the Sega touch-screen handheld, too, among others.

That would make sense. Wasnt the first PDAs quite expensive? Would probably make that Sega system $500+ or something.

 

[ekurisona]

new quote from miyamoto - i apologize, it is ot, but thought you guys may find it interesting...


"Games are become more of a consumable product, and it’s getting harder and harder for people to let a game to sink in and enjoy leisurely.”

Edit

This is the full quote:

“Pikmin is the kind of game that you have to play maybe three times to get the full effect, but you know, people don’t have a lot of time, so they just clear the stage and just move on. Games are becoming more of a consumable product, and it’s getting harder and harder for people to let a game to sink in and enjoy leisurely.”

 

[MuchoMalo]

new quote from miyamoto - i apologize, it is ot, but thought you guys may find it interesting...


"Games are become more of a consumable product, and it’s getting harder and harder for people to let a game to sink in and enjoy leisurely.”

Well, this is the most terrifying thing he's ever said.

 

[TI82]

new quote from miyamoto - i apologize, it is ot, but thought you guys may find it interesting...


"Games are become more of a consumable product, and it’s getting harder and harder for people to let a game to sink in and enjoy leisurely.”

What is he even talking about? Guys been off his rocker for a while now.

 

[Servbot24]

What is he even talking about? Guys been off his rocker for a while now.

How is he off his rocker with this quote?

 

[Jacobi]

Well, Miyamoto was even afraid competitors would copy THE FUCKING GAMECUBE SHOULDER BUTTONS

 

[Panajev2001a]

What is he even talking about? Guys been off his rocker for a while now.

He is quite correct though, single player focused games meant to be replayed over and over to fully discover all of their secrets or to properly learn the level layout and beret he previous fastest score, etc... are seen as dated design by gamers who are growing more and more on mobiles where hundreds of games a month are released for little to no money.
He is not he only one that is sometimes saddened about gamers whose backlogs grow, who find games above $9 to be absurdly priced, who do not want to be challenged by a game only entertained, and who do not complete their games.

 

[Turrican3]

Everything we've heard since the NX announcement last year has referred to it as a single machine.

Most of the time Nintendo referred to NX as a gaming platform though.

Me and many others believe there's probably a reason why they were using so consistently the word platform instead of something like, system. The reason being NX is actually a family of devices a-la-iOS (which was explicitly mentioned by Iwata as well), sharing most of even the whole software library. Who knows?

I mean, unless he was intentionally misleading everyone, I really think we might be onto something here...

 

[SScorpio]

Xbox was the only one that pulled a quick concept with Smartglass after the Wii U was announced with the Gamepad. But stage one of ignoring it was somewhat successful. Later Sony demonstrated remote Play with the Vita.

Remote play was on the PSP and PS3 well before the WiiU was ever announced. Only a few games support it though, but you could play all PSX including disk games that way. If you had a hacked PS3 it was possible to remote play any game.

But you know it's Sony, they can never have an original idea and have to always copy Nintendo. Just like Microsoft never had any original idea they didn't copy from Apple, *cough cough* TabletPC, PocketPC.

 

[Plinko]

What is he even talking about? Guys been off his rocker for a while now.

I see nothing untrue about what he said. Look at how shallow mobile games are.

 

[LordRaptor]

Well, this is the most terrifying thing he's ever said.

What is he even talking about? Guys been off his rocker for a while now.

Eating crackers like he fucking owns the place

 

[Koren]

That would make sense. Wasnt the first PDAs quite expensive? Would probably make that Sega system $500+ or something.

Paid mine around that price IIRC (not that a great idea, in fact), but there were far cheaper ones.

But I don't think it would have fetched that a price. There WERE touchscreen low-cost handheld at that time. You have a lot of leeway in terms of technology/costs. But even 250$ handheld wasn't that a great idea at this time...

 

[MDave]

I wonder if Sony and Nintendo had to get the license or patent on rumble from the same company / person around the same time, or they were free to make their own. I believe it's based on the same principle of an off centre weight attached to a motor? Was that Immersion's patent?

 

[Cheeseman Battitude]

Well, Miyamoto was even afraid competitors would copy THE FUCKING GAMECUBE SHOULDER BUTTONS

So he should. It was a great idea having a trigger with a click at the end.