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[Trent Strong]

I'm not sure what this bizarre non-sequitur means but any "science" contained in the Koran is based on Greek knowledge from almost 1000 years before the Koran was written (eg), whereas the event depicted in that painting happened almost 300 years after the Koran was written.

.

 

[womfalcs3]

While Europeans and the Church were fighting over the geometry of the Earth well into the second millennium, the Quran had already stated the planets were rounded.

Also, much of the advancement we saw from Muslims during Europe's dark ages was inspired directly from Islam and the Quran. God says everything has a numerical, hence mathematical, representation.

 

[Dresden]

While Europeans and the Church were fighting over the geometry of the Earth well into the second millennium, the Quran had already stated the planets were rounded.

And the fucking Greeks figured it out way before that.

This reminds me of a nutter I once knew who insisted that Eve being made from Adam's rib was an allusion to the God-alien's cloning technology.

 

[Scrow]

“Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground and come forth as springs, then He caused crops of different colors to grow...” Qur’an,39:21

someone probably already pointed this out in the thread, but just in case...

any half-wit, red-neck farmer will notice that stuff grows after rain.

 

[Nocebo]

While Europeans and the Church were fighting over the geometry of the Earth well into the second millennium, the Quran had already stated the planets were rounded.

Also, much of the advancement we saw from Muslims during Europe's dark ages was inspired directly from Islam and the Quran. God says everything has a numerical, hence mathematical, representation.

It's like modern inventions being inspired by old science fiction shows / books. It's pretty funny how works of fiction can sometimes seem prophetic.
Aslo, did you ever see those hieroglyphs that seemingly depict a helicopter and jet plane etc?

 

[Ydahs]

A perfect example of how scientific studies can be twisted in many ways.

First, mountains are NOT peg-shaped. I dunno what "roots" the article is talking about, but you can bet your life that mountains are not comprised of a series of pegs/pillars.

As for holding the Earth still, that's crap too. Mountains are pathetically small compared to the actual size of the Earth; they don't do squat to prevent any type of movement. Mountains are actually the RESULT of movement, the exact opposite of what that article is inferring.
The only "stabilizing" aspect of a mountain is their process of being formed, as that's during the process of reaching "stability" once again in a seismic area.

The roots are shown in illustrations in the link which does make the explanation a tad bit clearer.

 

[Stinkles]

someone probably already pointed this out in the thread, but just in case...

any half-wit, red-neck farmer will notice that stuff grows after rain.

Or that it doesn't grow when it doesn't rain. Or that the rain soaks into the ground.

 

[Instigator]

So... is it officially debunked now?

 

[Trent Strong]

While Europeans and the Church were fighting over the geometry of the Earth well into the second millennium, the Quran had already stated the planets were rounded.

Also, much of the advancement we saw from Muslims during Europe's dark ages was inspired directly from Islam and the Quran. God says everything has a numerical, hence mathematical, representation.

Eratosthenes not only knew the world was round, but calculated the Earth's circumference, fairly accurately, around 240 BC.

 

[BitchTits]

I once thought that access to a virtual never ending stream of knowledge and data would raise our collective awareness - then the internet happened.

 

[Enosh]

While Europeans and the Church were fighting over the geometry of the Earth well into the second millennium

source

now

 

[Ashes]

Eratosthenes not only knew the world was round, but calculated the Earth's circumference, fairly accurately, around 240 BC.

Well objectively speaking, it worked both ways. Flat earth theory existed as did spherical. Not really much justification for either party to criticize the other, but I will say that history now seems to imply that this knowledge was widespread perhaps... Quran wasn't the first, we have proof of this. It wasn't a scientific miracle. But of the prevailing theories, if the interpretation is accepted to hold true, then it did on this point retain consistency with the right truth as it were. A good guess or an educated author, you decide. That is if you accept the interpretation to hold true.

 

[Monocle]

It sure would have been useful if people figured out a bit earlier that there are germs and they make people sick. You'd think God would have scribbled that in the margin of a holy book somewhere.

 

[Billen]

The funny thing is that there are people who actually consider this whole thing to be for real.

 

[xbhaskarx]

It sure would have been useful if people figured out a bit earlier that there are germs and they make people sick. You'd think God would have scribbled that in the margin of a holy book somewhere.

:lol

Excellent point.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

SURAH 55:5 "The sun and moon follow courses exactly computed."

[And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.] (Al-Anbiyaa' 21: 33)

"..We have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it..."

“I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it.” Qur’an,51:47

“Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground and come forth as springs, then He caused crops of different colors to grow...” Qur’an,39:21

“Verily, I created humankind from a small quantity of mingled fluids.” Qur’an, 76:2

most of those seem like something someone could write just by observing things?

"The sun and moon follow courses exactly computed."

Doesn't the sun kind of.... stay put? Isn't this just an observation from watching Sunrise/nightfall?

 

[Ashes]

:lol

Excellent point.

The usual retort to this is that it doesn't work like that. The god in question does what he does etc...

I did try explaining to some people in absolute poverty once about the importance of cleanliness. One or two got it I feel, even if it seemed like they were puzzled. how can a bug be so small, that you can't even see it? wouldn't we be killing them all the time... etc... education lights the way I suppose...

 

[Instigator]

Pretty woman cometh, male appendage riseth Surah 65:5

Muslim GAF: "How could an illiterate man have access to such knowledge?"

 

[Ashes]

Pretty woman cometh, male appendage riseth Surah 65:5

Muslim GAF: "How could an illiterate man have access to such knowledge?"

sigh...

 

[Walshicus]

While Europeans and the Church were fighting over the geometry of the Earth well into the second millennium,

Bullshit.

 

[Trent Strong]

Well objectively speaking, it worked both ways. Flat earth theory existed as did spherical. Not really much justification for either party to criticize the other, but I will say that history now seems to imply that this knowledge was widespread perhaps... Quran wasn't the first, we have proof of this. It wasn't a scientific miracle. But of the prevailing theories, if the interpretation is accepted to hold true, then it did on this point retain consistency with the right truth as it were. A good guess or an educated author, you decide. That is if you accept the interpretation to hold true.

The Greeks knew the Earth was spherical by observing lunar eclipses, and by some other empirical data that I forget. So there was justification, empirical evidence even, for the idea that the Earth was round, even back then.

 

[Ashes]

The Greeks knew the Earth was spherical by observing lunar eclipses, and by some other empirical data that I forget. So there was justification, empirical evidence even, for the idea that the Earth was round, even back then.

It was widespread -this knowledge- yes. The justification part I wrote about was regarding the two parties in this debate, not that one. As should have been clearer by what I said post that sentence.

Nonetheless on a wider issue, I've heard and read of the books that were burnt due to the Quran etc, but they, the Muslims of that bygone era were the bridge between this world and the one you are referring to. You cannot deny them that?

Because your argument is that knowledge transferred hands. They selected the right one in that book; so there is no debunking on that issue, if you agree to that interpretation of course, and I see no absolute reason why you have to agree to that interpretation; it is for the believer. It's all poetry, and exacting science being extracted out of that material has always been more helpful to the Muslim than the critic in my point of view.

Nonetheless, they, as a culture and society of that time did a great deal of good work, by looking and searching for knowledge, and translating a ton of work, that could so easily have been lost from this world. Give credit where it is due. Regardless of whether they were muslim or not, or that they did is because of a book or not, or whether they were muslim in name only or whatever, the fact remains we owe a lot to those interpreters and seekers of knowledge.

And in my view it doesn't do well, to blacken history, so as to prove that ALL religion is bogus; let's laugh at that ignorant lot in the dark ages, he he. Just debunk what has been put in front of you, and you seem intellectually able to do so.

From the op to here, it's all a big massive trolling effort. It's so tiresome having to do this again, and again, again.

 

[SmokyDave]

From the op to here, it's all a big massive trolling effort.

I think that's inaccurate and disrespectful to many posts and posters in this topic.

 

[Ashes]

I think that's inaccurate and disrespectful to many posts and posters in this topic.

I hope the posters you refer to take my apologies to heart. They should know who they are.

 

[Instigator]

Apology accepted, ashes.

 

[Ashes]

Apology accepted, ashes.

edit: I shall now carry on watching the Birdman of Alcatraz. Sorry for the disruption. Carry on as you were.

 

[kottila]

if science is so important for the muslim world, they don't do a very good job of showing it these days.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Pretty woman cometh, male appendage riseth Surah 65:5

Muslim GAF: "How could an illiterate man have access to such knowledge?"

I looked up the real verse just to see how close you were

Surah 65:5 That is the Command of Allah, which He has sent down to you: and if any one fears Allah, He will remove his ills, from him, and will enlarge his reward.

if "his reward" is his penis, you're not far off!

 

[Trent Strong]

It was widespread -this knowledge- yes. The justification part I wrote about was regarding the two parties in this debate, not that one. As should have been clearer by what I said post that sentence.

Nonetheless on a wider issue, I've heard and read of the books that were burnt due to the Quran etc, but they, the Muslims of that bygone era were the bridge between this world and the one you are referring to. You cannot deny them that?

Because your argument is that knowledge transferred hands. They selected the right one in that book; so there is no debunking on that issue, if you agree to that interpretation of course, and I see no absolute reason why you have to agree to that interpretation; it is for the believer. It's all poetry, and exacting science being extracted out of that material has always been more helpful to the Muslim than the critic in my point of view.

Nonetheless, they, as a culture and society of that time did a great deal of good work, by looking and searching for knowledge, and translating a ton of work, that could so easily have been lost from this world. Give credit where it is due. Regardless of whether they were muslim or not, or that they did is because of a book or not, or whether they were muslim in name only or whatever, the fact remains we owe a lot to those interpreters and seekers of knowledge.

And in my view it doesn't do well, to blacken history, so as to prove that ALL religion is bogus; let's laugh at that ignorant lot in the dark ages, he he. Just debunk what has been put in front of you, and you seem intellectually able to do so.

From the op to here, it's all a big massive trolling effort. It's so tiresome having to do this again, and again, again.

I was born and raised a Mormon, I know what it's like to have my scriptures (or what I believed in my youth to be scriptures) trolled. My point is....I forget. But the point is, the world would be better off if people weren't divided by religion. A secular world would be a better world.

 

[kottila]

I was born and raised a Mormon, I know what it's like to have my scriptures (or what I believed in my youth to be scriptures) trolled. My point is....I forget. But the point is, the world would be better off if people weren't divided by religion. A secular world would be a better world.

how did it feel then? and how do you feel about joking about holy scriptures now?

 

[Trent Strong]

how did it feel then? and how do you feel about joking about holy scriptures now?

Honestly, it wasn't that big of a deal. People trashed the Book of Mormon all the time, I just got used to it. Now that I'm an atheist, I no longer consider any scriptures to be "holy".

 

[Ashes]

I was born and raised a Mormon, I know what it's like to have my scriptures (or what I believed in my youth to be scriptures) trolled. My point is....I forget. But the point is, the world would be better off if people weren't divided by religion. A secular world would be a better world.

Not really what I was driving at. But interesting to hear nonetheless.

Edit: Yes to below.

 

[SmokyDave]

how did it feel then? and how do you feel about joking about holy scriptures now?

I personally feel that holy scriptures ought to be treated the same as any other text when it comes to scrutiny and assessment. We shouldn't shy away from frank and honest analysis of these things just because lots of people have a large emotional attachment to them.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This is only a shocking revelation if you think all human beings 2000 years ago were complete idiots. They had eyes and could see the results of cause and effect.

The Romans and ancient Chinese engaged in sophisticated science and engineering long before the Qur'an was written. In fact the Arab world built and expanded upon ancient Greek science and philosophical thought.

European science was not as dumb back then as many like to make out.

 

[Mario]

After reading more about this today it is interesting to note many of those making claims of scientific "truths" in the Quran, even on the basis of clear stretches of imagination on often ambiguous text, seem to conveniently ignore the flagrant scientific errors in the Quran.

On a related note, in my internet travels on the subject, I did find it particularly amusing reading a Christian article criticizing the science claims about the Quran.

 

[wolfmat]

After reading more about this today it is interesting to note many of those making claims of scientific "truths" in the Quran, even on the basis of clear stretches of imagination on often ambiguous text, seem to conveniently ignore the flagrant scientific errors in the Quran.

Guys, it's really weird, my queue in the supermarket is always the longest.

 

[MrHicks]

you can find stuff like this too in the sacred hindu texts (vedas?)
same with some sikh/buddhist/jain/new & old testament shit

LOL worthy thread though

 

[Scrow]

Doesn't the sun kind of.... stay put? Isn't this just an observation from watching Sunrise/nightfall?

nothing "stays put". perhaps relative to us it seems fixed and immovable and we move around it, but the sun is just a speck spiralling around the plug hole known as our galaxy, the milky way.

even galaxies are moving relative to each other. so no, it doesn't stay put.

 

[Nocebo]

you can find stuff like this too in the sacred hindu texts (vedas?)
same with some sikh/buddhist/jain/new & old testament shit

LOL worthy thread though

You can find stuff like this in any fictional work: comics, cartoons, science fiction novels, etc.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

you can find stuff like this too in the sacred hindu texts (vedas?)
same with some sikh/buddhist/jain/new & old testament shit

LOL worthy thread though

The Buddha was all about self-enquiry and understanding cause and effect. It is easy to misunderstand it because people understand religion as consisting entirely of dogma but Buddhism seeks to remove preconceptions and mental constructs... even calling yourself a Buddhist would be counter-intuitive to the goals of Buddhism (if there is such a thing).

 

[Instigator]

You can find stuff like this in any fictional work: comics, cartoons, science fiction novels, etc.

Yeah, but it's still a worthy thread in my opinion since Islam usually gets a pass compared to Christianity when it comes to that subject. Too few critics in the Muslim world (either by sheer faith or the fear of threats). There's also a tendency among many Muslims to band together and defend the faith at all cost, even if they don't really believe in it. It is more a part of their identity in opposition to the secular West.

 

[PistolGrip]

That's impossible, the Qur'an today is the same Qur'an from the time of the prophet. Many people have tried changing it over the years but the problem is that many people (hundreds/thousands) during the time of the Prophet memorized the entire Qur'an completely and on top of which review it daily in order to keep it in memory.

Whenever a group or an individual makes the tiniest of change to the Qur'an and then prints copies for public consumption their change is caught by the people who have it memorized. As of today, there are probably millions of people with the entire Qur'an memorized.

See this is the problem with religous thinking. What you have just said sounds impossible or (brace yourself) illogical.

 

[Zapages]

See this is the problem with religous thinking. What you have just said sounds impossible.

yet millions of Muslim memorize the Holy Quran today and even regular Muslims need to know bunch of surahs for prayers. Its not that impossible dude.

Also WTF at the title change. Nothing has debunked. :|

 

[spiderman123]

Every religious text is prone to some form of discrepancy as time goes. Worst yet ppl analyze each differently, the outcome is usually either bad or good.

 

[Chuckie]

Also WTF at the title change. Nothing has debunked. :|

What was the original title then? It sure doesn't state it has been debunked that there is modern science in the Quran, it clearly has a questionmark in the title.

 

[replicashooter]

What always bothered me about most current religions is that instead of building huge ass pyramids to preserve stuff or instead of carving out entire mountains with statues... the gods(God, Allah etc.) somehow wanted their words to be written on books and scrolls. Easily flammable and anything but durable.

Ever consider that the Gods did create the huge ass pyramids to contain all of the knowledge of the world (which they apparently do if certain mathematical notation is to be believed) and clever pretenders then created the Koran, Torah and Bible - full of yeah but no quiteisms to keep everyone fighting amongst themselves and not ask the most obvious of questions instead they argue in infinite pedantry.

The question is why?

 

[Azih]

But the point is, the world would be better off if people weren't divided by religion. A secular world would be a better world.

I don't understand this point. Any difference people have can be used as a source of division and religion is far from unique in this and secularism is in no way a cure. The greatest tragedies of the twentieth century came from divisions of race (secular), ethnicity (secular), nation (secular), and economic ideology (secular). Why not advocate for the elimination of those differences and just focus on religion?

 

[PistolGrip]

With the greatest of respect to you and to the Prophet (peace be upon him), I don't believe that this sort of errant analysis is to the credit of Islam, nor of any benefit in understanding the Qur'an.

As to the science, it isn't modern - or at least not so much that it is necessarly informed by anything other than the science known at the time. Astronomy in particular was far more widely studied and known about in ancient times than it is now. Light pollution has a great deal to answer for - it astonishes me how many people I find who have never even looked at the stars with any serious curiosity. Similarly the rain cycle was well understood thousands of years before.

As for illiteracy and lack of education well, these don't mean that a person is stupid. In modern Western societies we may tend to think that - indeed "illiterate" is often used as shorthand for stupidity - but I've met very many illiterate people who were bright, smart, persuasive and extremely good at following complex arguments and logic (far more so than many literate people who rely on books). Literacy by itself is not all it is cracked up to be.

It is clear that the Prophet (peace be upon him) spoke with and learnt from many people. He was at the very least a gregarious and sociable person. And he lived at a time when science was close to a peak and literacy was on a sharp rise in the Arab world.

It does not seem to me to be necessary to make extravagant and possibly unsustainable claims about the origins of the Qur'an in order to respect Islam - and it may be counter-productive in that it leads to arguments that are far from the aims and objects of Islam.

To address your particular points:



Well, no, but he spoke to lots of people and travelled a great deal, it is not like he lived in a vacuum. Far from it. He listened to and learnt from others, and it isn't blasphemy to say so. So do all of us.



The verses that unequivocally refer to scientific discoveries refer to discoveries made in ancient times. Not all science is modern. As for the others - they are stretches of interpretation.



Probably it could have been. It comes as a surprise to Westerners just how creative and compelling the words of so-called illiterates can be because they are so used to illiterates being labelled stupid. At some stage the Prophet learned to write. I don't see there being any problem with what he then wrote being whatever it is.

Let's be clear here. I'm not saying that the Qur'an is therefore not the word of Allah. All I'm saying is that these arguments don't go any distance to proving that it is.


I'm trying to be reasonable and balanced here. Let's hope nobody takes it the wrong way!

I am impressed at your ability to reason yet keep your believe system in place. If only others would take your lead.

 

[Davidion]

I am impressed at your ability to reason yet keep your believe system in place. If only others would take your lead.

I completely agree

 

[Azih]

The movement by some Muslims to claim scientific discoveries in the Quran is much less destructive and plain nicer than the movement by some Christians to bash Science in favour of the Bible but I've never been comfortable with it.

Vague interpretations aside it is kinda absurd to tie the static Quran to dynamic scientific theories. What if the theory is debunked or changes based on new experimental data? Is the Quran then debunked? Of course not, just the *interpretation* that tied the Quran to the theory in the first place and some other verse can be claimed to be tied to the new theory. It's a pointless exercise.