• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

More games should use NaturalMotion's "Euphoria" Engine

Tonky

Member
It's 2016, consoles are more powerful than ever, yet "canned animations" have yet to become a relic of the past. Even the biggest blockbuster titles with the highest budgets and most impressive graphical fidelity have not gotten rid of them (Uncharted 4, MGSV, etc.). I'm not debating these games' animation quality, have you seen the intricacy in the way Drake moves?

uncharted-4-gameplay-o.gif


So...erm, what exactly is the problem then? The problem is that the animation always plays out to completion in a pre-defined manner, with little (if any) response to dynamic inputs. This often creates "awkward situations" where a dynamic event (collision, impact, free-fall) should occur in a way that's grounded in the laws of classical mechanics, but instead plays out within the boundaries of a "canned animation." MGSV has decent examples of this: regardless of the height you jump from/off of, Snakes's "falling animation" is the exact same, and doesn't take into account the initial height, velocity, and acceleration that he jumped with. If he jumps from a height of x meters, shouldn't his body react differently to jumping from a height of 2*x meters (assuming x is reasonably large)?

Enter Euphoria. You may already be familiar with this animation engine, especially if you've ever played a 7th generation R* game (GTAIV, GTAV, RDR, Max Payne 3), Backbreaker (please don't play this), or Star Wars: The Force Unleashed. Let's observe this gif showcasing the Euphoria engine, if you're not quite familiar with it:

euphoria2.gif


So what do you notice about this gif? Even from a single gif, it's quite apparent that this isn't your standard "canned animation." Pay close attention to the way the avatars react to each other. Their animations are grounded within the dynamics of their movement:

Character A is lunging onto Character B, who is stationary. A misses B by a large margin, but does manage to get a bit of his arm onto B's leg, which then slams into the ground along with the rest of A's body. B reacts, but does so in a way that stabilizes its position based on where A hit, and how hard A hit.

Max Payne 3 arguably has one of the best implementations of the Euphoria Engine, with characters reacting realistically to bullet impacts based on where they were hit, and what type of gun Max used:

2768805-3951608110-maxim.gif


and just for fun:

giphy.gif


Implementing Euphoria into games creates an infinite amount of gameplay scenarios that are grounded in the dynamics of each environment. It makes every encounter unique and fun, adding a layer of complexity that transcends hard-coded gameplay mechanics and animations. Just imagine Insomniac's Spider-man game using this engine, web-swinging could be made incredibly fun, and collisions would be absolutely hilarious.

So do you think this (or something similar) should be included in more games? Why or why not? If yes, what games would benefit the most from its implementation (give specific titles)? Are there any games that it wouldn't really affect?
 

PnCIa

Member
From my experience, it does look great, but doesnt feel good to control because it ads a lot of delay between the users input and the reaction on screen. So, no thanks.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Uncharted 4 has a shit ton of systemic animations.

Edit: To your global point:
Yes, more games should use it. I just don't think one should use Uncharted 4 or MGSV as exampled that need it. There are bigger fish out in the sea that could do with a huge bump in animation fidelity and procedural computation.
 

Tonky

Member
Uncharted 4 has a shit ton of systemic animations.
What's a shit ton vs. an infinite number? All of Max Payne 3's animations are dynamic, calculated on the fly, and take multiple variables into account. Uncharted 4's animations, as you've stated, are systemic, canned, but absolutely beautiful. A combination of the two could be something truly special.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm a bigger fan of what they're doing with For Honor, Euphoria, while it creates some good animations here and there, has a really strange ragdoll look to it. And also leads to WAY too much animation priority compared to a traditional blended animation system. GTAV's default aiming mode is literally lock on auto aim because of shit like that.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
What's a shit ton vs. an infinite number? All of Max Payne 3's animations are dynamic, calculated on the fly, and take multiple variables into account. Uncharted 4's animations, as you've stated, are systemic, canned, but absolutely beautiful. A combination of the two could be something truly special.
Systemic is not an alternate term for canned.

You may not like the results, but the hit reaction or explosion reactions are not canned. They are systemic.
 

Tonky

Member
Systemic is not an alternate term for canned.

You may not like the results, but the hit reaction or explosion reactions are not canned. They are systemic.
You're going to need to explain that further, because by "systemic," I'm assuming there's some kind of decision matrix for what animation plays out but each animation itself is still canned.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
You're going to need to explain that further, because by "systemic," I'm assuming there's some kind of decision matrix for what animation plays out but each animation itself is still canned.
Hit reaction are same close to Euphoria.

There are defined bones with rigidity and values that define how much they may bend. Then forces are applied to the model and the model reacts according to these forces.

(It doesn't go as far as Euphoria, but then again Euphoria has highly variable results. Some of the highest highs I've seen and some very low lows.)
 

cchum

Member
I agree Euphoria is awesome. I think a blended animation/physics model like Killzone are great too though.
 

Alienous

Member
It's only really useful for bullet hit reactions, I think. The Uncharted 4 example you gave would just be made more clunky and unpredictable by the implementation of Euphoria physics. And Uncharted 4's bullet hit reactions are great anyway.

It does help for having funny collisions though, I agree. Messing up a web-swing in a Spider-Man game would be far better with Euphoria physics instead of ragdoll physics.
 

Chuck

Still without luck
I wonder if Red Dead 3 is going to have euphoria considering the zynga buyout.

Maybe Rockstar will develop their own tech?
 

Tonky

Member
It's only really useful for bullet hit reactions, I think. The Uncharted 4 example you gave would just be made more clunky and unpredictable by the implementation of Euphoria physics. And Uncharted 4's bullet hit reactions are great anyway.

It does help for having funny collisions though, I agree. Messing up a web-swing in a Spider-Man game would be far better with Euphoria physics instead of ragdoll physics.
In my mind, it would look almost identical to this (except web-swinging, instead of driving a motorcycle)

89261.jpg
 

Ridley327

Member
IIRC, one of the big hurdles for Euphoria being widely used is that it's not a middleware engine in the traditional sense, and that NaturalMotion more or less winds up as a co-developer on a project that uses it because of how much they need to be involved to help cater it specifically to the needs of their client. It winds up being a lot more expensive than most studios can afford, which is why Rockstar is about the only licensee they have these days.
 

Tonky

Member
I wonder if Red Dead 3 is going to have euphoria considering the zynga buyout.

Maybe Rockstar will develop their own tech?
That's a pretty interesting theory. It could also explain why they haven't announced a new game yet. They could be working on a current-gen version of the RAGE engine that has in-built soft body dynamics.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
In my mind, it would look almost identical to this (except web-swinging, instead of driving a motorcycle)

89261.jpg
I think that is the optimal situation for Euphoria and it looks fantastic.

Spider-Man would've need to have an in-air recovery and not the fall to the ground. Not we reset and play the standing up animation regardless of clipping which GTA4 did.
 
I'm a bigger fan of what they're doing with For Honor, Euphoria, while it creates some good animations here and there, has a really strange ragdoll look to it. And also leads to WAY too much animation priority compared to a traditional blended animation system. GTAV's default aiming mode is literally lock on auto aim because of shit like that.

For Honor has amazing animation.
 
I agree Euphoria is awesome. I think a blended animation/physics model like Killzone are great too though.

Everything mentioned in this thread uses a blended animations and physics/skeletal simulation in some combination.

Pretty much every recent game of last many years uses blended animations too. It's just a matter of degrees of how many animations and how well the blending process is happening.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
MGSV has decent examples of this: regardless of the height you jump from/off of, Snakes's "falling animation" is the exact same, and doesn't take into account the initial height, velocity, and acceleration that he jumped with.
Just to address this example, MGSV is an outlier compared to some games in this day and age which use a contextual jumping system that pulls from a very large pool of different animations as to not look repetitive. See AC games and Uncharted 4.
 

bryanee

Member
It looks nice but I dont like how slow it makes everything in regards to movements. Just turning around in GTA or getting up from prone to standing in MP3 piss me off. But maybe I'm wrong and thats not the euphoria engine doing that stuff, I not sure.
 
From my experience, it does look great, but doesnt feel good to control because it ads a lot of delay between the users input and the reaction on screen. So, no thanks.

Yeah I'd much prefer a balance of good animation and responsiveness vs having realism but being sluggish. Although I don't remember Max Payne 3 being sluggish
 

Plesiades

Member
The Overgrowth devs wanted to use Euphoria it at some point, IIRC. The request was denied, so they created a similar system of their own.

zGvFvdS.gif
 

Ridley327

Member
Anyone else notice Euphoria was pretty much neutered in GTA 5?

It hasn't gone unnoticed. It's hard to know why, though: it could be because they wanted to spend resources elsewhere, given how much larger a game it is, or they did take complaints about the animation priority issues that plagued GTA4 seriously and reduced to help make the game play better.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
It looks nice but I dont like how slow it makes everything in regards to movements. Just turning around in GTA or getting up from prone to standing in MP3 piss me off. But maybe I'm wrong and thats not the euphoria engine doing that stuff, I not sure.
I'm not an expert, but I'd say that is because Euphoria likes to start in a defined state. That's why there are these resets that happen when you stand up that look very much like simple traditional keyframed animations.
 

Kyolux

Member
It looks nice but I dont like how slow it makes everything in regards to movements. Just turning around in GTA or getting up from prone to standing in MP3 piss me off. But maybe I'm wrong and thats not the euphoria engine doing that stuff, I not sure.

Yeah, I didn't play GTA 5.. But GTA 4 and Red Dead Redemption were both meh experience to me because of that.
 

Tonky

Member
Alright so just to drive a point home, here's the Mass Effect: Andromeda gameplay from Sony's press conference earlier this week:

https://youtu.be/t1hBNALUk4w?t=22s

The walking animation is nice, but notice how the landing from the jetpack jump at 0:22 and 0:30 are identical. There's no weight to it (which has more to do with the animation than physics), and the character reacts perfectly to the impact regardless of the terrain.
 

Kinyou

Member
Alright so just to drive a point home, here's the Mass Effect: Andromeda gameplay from Sony's press conference earlier this week:

https://youtu.be/t1hBNALUk4w?t=22s

The walking animation is nice, but notice how the landing from the jetpack jump at 0:22 and 0:30 are identical. There's no weight to it (which has more to do with the animation than physics), and the character reacts perfectly to the impact regardless of the terrain.
In that case I think you'd need something more evolved though. With Euphoria characters always seem to fall in a stumble, that either ends with them falling down or coming to a standstill. With something like Mass Effect you'd probably wouldn't want to break the gameflow though, so you'd need an animation system that lets the player keep running while also looking realistic.

But to be fair, we don't really know what Euphoria is capable of on the new consoles.
 

Alienous

Member
Alright so just to drive a point home, here's the Mass Effect: Andromeda gameplay from Sony's press conference earlier this week:

https://youtu.be/t1hBNALUk4w?t=22s

The walking animation is nice, but notice how the landing from the jetpack jump at 0:22 and 0:30 are identical. There's no weight to it (which has more to do with the animation than physics), and the character reacts perfectly to the impact regardless of the terrain.

Yeah, but as you said that's more of an animation issue - it wouldn't really be helped by Euphoria. The minute you relinquish player control to physics playability decreases. For example, if you land on uneven terrain, then you character would probably just fall over.

For example the Assassin's Creed series (especially the recent games) do a good job of dynamically blending animations in a way that feels real, such as a slight stumble, or a greater buckling at the knees when falling from a significant height.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Alright so just to drive a point home, here's the Mass Effect: Andromeda gameplay from Sony's press conference earlier this week:

https://youtu.be/t1hBNALUk4w?t=22s

The walking animation is nice, but notice how the landing from the jetpack jump at 0:22 and 0:30 are identical. There's no weight to it (which has more to do with the animation than physics), and the character reacts perfectly to the impact regardless of the terrain.
RPGs, (let alone Bioware RPGs >_>) aren't exactly known for good dynamic character animations. Horizon Zero Dawn is pretty noticeable in that regard. Those landings aren't identical btw, as he lands with the first jump he kneels down and stops his himself with his left hand, the second landing he just kneels down and with more emphasis on his legs stopping his fall.
 
I love Euphoria physics!
Animated ragdolls are an incredible enhancement to gaming experiences.

I love how Rockstar implemented it in their games that use RAGE.
Max Payne 3's gameplay and gunplay is absolutely incredible and as a result of the implementation of euphoria physics the game offers an incredible amount of interactivity and and unique moments, you seriously feel like you're immersed in an action game with the feedback received from interacting with the game world and NPCs, with this in addition to the dive mechanics it offers an incredible experience!

I'd love to see the Eurphoria engine or other alternative systems used in first person shooters and more third person games, the ragdoll physics in the Assassin's Creed games have been pretty poor, and quite peculiar at times, it would be cool to see animated ragdolls utilized in the next Assassin's Creed game.

Spiderman as was mentioned in the OP would be an incredible opportunity, it would be awesome to see something similar implemented.
 

Tonky

Member
Someone mentioned Mafia 3 in the thread so I thought it'd be worth noting.

b8138e37.gif


So the bullet hit the character's leg, and he did actually stumble. As a matter of fact, it looked quite nice and realistic. I'm not sure whether it's Euphoria, but the animations do look like they could be "dynamic." Here's another:

vNy3Yf.gif


The tackle looked contextual, but the way the character hit the wall looked dynamic. We'll need to wait and see if the animations are physics-based, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Euphoria. I believe it's already been stated that R* is helping out with this.
 

M3d10n

Member
The problem is that you need to design your whole game around it: controls, movement, AI and gameplay itself need to take it in consideration. It also creates an expensive and time consuming need for constant back and forth adjustments to get the desired results out of it, since now things are very procedural and thus more unpredictable.
 

jett

D-Member
Rockstar's Euphoria games all share one thing in common: unresponsive controls.

I'd rather not have more games use that, and thankfully that is indeed the case.
 

SomTervo

Member
Mafia 3 looks like it's using it.

Someone mentioned Mafia 3 in the thread so I thought it'd be worth noting.

b8138e37.gif


So the bullet hit the character's leg, and he did actually stumble. As a matter of fact, it looked quite nice and realistic. I'm not sure whether it's Euphoria, but the animations do look like they could be "dynamic." Here's another:

vNy3Yf.gif


The tackle looked contextual, but the way the character hit the wall looked dynamic. We'll need to wait and see if the animations are physics-based, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Euphoria. I believe it's already been stated that R* is helping out with this.

During a stream there was an especially clear example - the player shot a guy who was standing in front of a car, and the guy's arm crumpled in that classic Euphoria way, and he stumbled back a step, bumped into the car's boot, then stumbled forward again and slumped to one side.

It was absolutely, clearly not canned. It looked almost straight out of GTA IV. The way he interacted with the car and the space around him looked totally unique.

Rockstar's Euphoria games all share one thing in common: unresponsive controls.

I'd rather not have more games use that, and thankfully that is indeed the case.

Pretty sure that's by design, nothing to do with the engine or tools.

I.e. they prioritise animation over matching the player's controller input. MGSV is like the exact opposite.
 

Tonky

Member
During a stream there was an especially clear example - the player shot a guy who was standing in front of a car, and the guy's arm crumpled in that classic Euphoria way, and he stumbled back a step, bumped into the car's boot, then stumbled forward again and slumped to one side.

It was absolutely, clearly not canned. The way he interacted with the car and the space around him looked totally unique.
Now this is getting interesting. So according to this article, 2K Czech was helping R* with the development of GTAV. Seeing as both studios are owned by the same parent company, it's not impossible that R* is helping with the development of Mafia 3. Here's what's weird: Mafia 3 appears to be using some form of the Euphoria engine, but hasn't marketed itself as using it in any way (GTAIV, GTAV, RDR, and MP3 were all announced to be using it prior to release). Mafia 3 isn't listed on NaturalMotion's website under games that use the Euphoria engine either. Is it possible that R* developed their own form of the engine for the current-gen of consoles, and shared their tech with 2K Czech for Mafia 3? It's an interesting theory.

EDIT - Direct quote from the article: "Apparently the two studios are sharing tech secrets - part of Take-Two's masterplan to turn Mafia into a monster franchise."
 

SomTervo

Member
Now this is getting interesting. So according to this article, 2K Czech was helping R* with the development of GTAV. Seeing as both studios are owned by the same parent company, it's not impossible that R* is helping with the development of Mafia 3. Here's what's weird: Mafia 3 appears to be using some form of the Euphoria engine, but hasn't marketed itself as using it in any way (GTAIV, GTAV, RDR, and MP3 were all announced to be using it prior to release). Mafia 3 isn't listed on NaturalMotion's website under games that use the Euphoria engine either. Is it possible that R* developed their own form of the engine for the current-gen of consoles, and shared their tech with 2K Czech for Mafia 3? It's an interesting theory.

EDIT - Direct quote from the article: "Apparently the two studios are sharing tech secrets - part of Take-Two's masterplan to turn Mafia into a monster franchise."

I remember that exact article. Wasn't it driving physics that the Mafia guys were helping with?

The bolded would be cool AF and would also make some kind of sense moving forward for R*.
 
Top Bottom