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[BronzeWolf]

I think the only question that Nintendo asked themselves when designing the NX is:

- What is the most power efficient architecture? ARM or x86?. IF they are planing on having a "Family of Devices", the efficiency is a big factor in the Handheld side. They have won every handheld war because of their battery life.
- How can we make PowerPC emulation available on it?. Nintendo believes that BC is paramount to their costumers. It will be very very difficult for them to drop it, if they can.

 

[sörine]

Unless Nintendo releases a flaming turd, the NX will outsell the Vita and the PS4. The N3DS, an incremental and highly optional release, has already outsold both in terms of YTD sales in Japan (I'd have to check numbers, but its surpassed the PS4's LTD as well in Japan). They have every reason to release a handheld in the same price range as the 3DS but with power to considerably outperform the Vita (by necessity of running the majority of mobile titles). (Software sales still being strong means an active audience as well. Now obviously hardware transition isn't guaranteed to carry over the userbase, but Nintendo's own software support is partly why people even buy the thing.)

Frontier is going to go on for a while longer, anyway, as Frontier 2 is coming out in the near future on the PC/PS4.

The other thing to consider is: Nintendo relations with the title, its handheld nature, the burgeoning costs of development, Capcom's financial woes, and MHs lack of western strength.

I think we'll see MHX HD for NX launch towards the end of 2016, with MH5 confirmed as an exclusive. MH seems to be the one traditional 3rd party brand Nintendo really has a hold on.

 

[Schnozberry]

I've read some of the documentation myself, but that's really for taking an application and porting it, so to speak. For straight up BC (to Nintendo's standards), they would likely either need Espresso (and the eDRAM) on there physically or they would need to license the same tech that MS have apparently licensed to get 360 games working on the Bone.

We can argue back and forth as to whether we think having Wii and Wii U BC is worth the extra hassle (although, as I mentioned, if they went that route, there are actually advantages), but what we should really be asking is, "Do Nintendo believe BC is important for their consumers?"

I would argue that they do. Now, whether the business side works out w/ AMD, gf, IBM, etc is anyone's guess, but both IBM and AMD are in much different positions than they were even 3 years ago.

I guess what I'm wondering is if AMD is thinking of using some kind of firmware or hardware based binary translation rather than grafting espresso on to their chip for this specific purpose. I would think getting IBM involved would introduce significant delays in the design and prototyping phase merely because you have more cooks in the kitchen.

 

[E-phonk]

I think the only question that Nintendo asked themselves when designing the NX is:

- What is the most power efficient architecture? ARM or x86?
- How can we make PowerPC emulation available on it?

The main question nintendo SHOULD ask (and probably did) is: how can we integrate our console and handheld development (and mobile development) in such a way that we can increase our software output. Which chipsets are cheap, offer the best scalability, and are power efficient.

And how can we combine this with the knowledge that mobile technology is on the rise, our handheld market is rapidly reducing in the west and the console market has been marginalized in japan.

 

[blu]

Power PC arch is the #1 cock block for Nintendo right now. Go into say a best buy and the only 3 things still sold in the whole store with power PC are the 360, Wii, and Wii U. 2 of those being old as fuck.

Nobody wants to deal with that shit, and nobody's engine is fit to run on that shit. It's not about power per say. Just look at all of the Vita ports that run the game from good performance to kinda shitty. Yet the Vita has an easy to port to arch with it's arm CPU.

Nintendo basically had to beg to get a version of Unity on the Wii U and even that is a dead end version without updates cause there is zero reason to put the time into it. It's the same reason Epic had with Unreal. They couldn't use their console/PC x86 base, and they couldn't use their mobile ARM base.

Why would anyone take the time to make something that has to be so Wii U specific due to the Power PC with this install base? Install base wouldn't matter as much if it was easy to port the exist engines everyone uses.

Just look at the Tell Tale stuff. It's on every platform known to man regardless of how well it runs. Why not the Wii U as well? Cause they can't just use their existing engines with the Power PC hurdles.

Nintendo knows this. That's why they pushed so hard to get at least A version of Unity and created that web framework for Nindies. It still huge cock block though.

Even if the NX was the same power level as the Wii U but used a chipset everyone uses you'd see a lot more games being on the system that are multiplatform on everything under the sun.

Nintendo would go PPC->ARM because it's economically viable for a 2016 console to do just that. The rest from your post is irrelevant (example: devs had no issue doing cross-gen PPC/x86).

 

[sörine]

You could achieve the same result with the console & handheld sharing an architecture & an OS.

Consumers are pushing away from dual purchasing though. Wii U already proves that, there are millions of Nintendo fans not bothering with the system since they can already get mostly the same sort of experiences on 3DS. This never happened with SNES/GB or Wii/DS though, as mobile technology improves and that barrier gets lower the games are becoming too similar to simultaneously support dual markets.

That's why Iwata specifically compared NX to being modeled after iOS and Android rather than the old console/handheld binary. Basically think of it in terms of the handheld being your iPhone, the console your iPad. You can play most of the same apps on both, although there might still be some exclusives depending on interface (Wii Sports), play style (Pokémon) or performance (Xenoblade).

 

[Pokemaniac]

yeah with this news of Nintendo intending to stick with BC I'm wondering if the NX doesn't just signify cross support between their handheld and console but cross support for all of their games. everything. that'd be a system seller right there. I mean when it's all said and done the Wii U will already be able to play every single generation of Nintendo hardware save for the 3DS. you can emulate the NES, SNES, N64, GB, GBC, GBA, and DS while also being able to play GCN and Wii games natively. would be really awesome if that's where they're headed.

This is what I'm expecting. What they've said generally seems to indicate them going in this direction.

 

[deleted]

But the majority of Nintendo's hardware has been BC with its predecessor. You seem to be assuming Nintendo will do exactly the opposite of what you want instead of actually looking at precedent.

well this is false. Nintendo has put that expectation into a lot of gamers' minds by having backwards compatibility on the majority of their consoles, both handheld and home. GBC played GB, GBA played both, DS played GBA, 3DS plays DS, Wii plays GC, and Wii U plays Wii. there is a reasonable expectation that I will be able to take my Wii U games and play them on the next console because Nintendo's history suggests that.

We have had BC for two consoles - Wii and Wii U. We didn't for 3 - SNES, N64 and Gamecube. So maybe we get it, maybe we don't.

We got it on Wii and Wii U because the hardware was so similar, that it was basically a modified and overcloked Gamecube. No need to emulate, just clock down. I don't believe they'll stick to these restrictions in hardware design a third time.
Simply because it isn't supported anymore and Nintendo as a company is trying to reposition itself on the market.
It makes much more sense for them to invest in a new architecture, that they can then upgrade for the foreseeable future. It would also mean they had to invest in hardware solutions to keep the Gamepad compatible, which would drive the cost further up.

Same but different on the handheld side. First it was relatively cheap to keep hardware solutions onboard, later the hardware evolved from similar hardware. It wouldn't surprise me if the NXhandheld dropped 3DS BC and emulated DS downwards.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I guess what I'm wondering is if AMD is thinking of using some kind of firmware or hardware based binary translation rather than grafting espresso on to their chip for this specific purpose. I would think getting IBM involved would introduce significant delays in the design and prototyping phase merely because you have more cooks in the kitchen.

I don't think a firmware/binary translation is possible unless they license that 360/Xbone tech (of which I really need to do more reading up on) or something similar. I don't know if another company even offers a similar product--I read on GAF here that it is truly unique. Translating on-the-fly would be out of the question, I can imagine.

Yes, there would be work involved, but even before IBM's openPOWER initiative, even before AMD's last few disastrous quarters and increased focus on consoles, they worked together to integrate the Wii U processor on an MCM. They also worked w/ Microsoft on the SoC in the 360 slim. APUs have performed well on SOI processes similar to IBM's (see Trinity as one example). It's just that AMD have relied more on TSMC lately and they use bulk silicon. I think SOI is poised for a comeback however, and Globalfoundries actually just announced a new, even more advanced SOI node (not that I expect it to be used on NX).

Bottom line would be cost, of course, but I keep going back to this quote by Miyamoto:

When we have meetings to discuss these subjects with many people, however, the opinions and the possible conclusions of the meetings tend to move forward in the same direction. Specifically, they tend to revolve around “Which one of these possible technologies is of the highest performance?” and “Which one will eventually be the most affordable?” When younger people start talking in this fashion, people like me make a point of stressing the importance of the product having one very clear-cut unique point.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/141030qa/03.html
Takeda has also stressed that hardware efficiency is part of the "Nintendo DNA." I think that Nintendo may pursue efficiency, even if that component is slightly more expensive. SOI processes are usually very efficient and boast power savings over bulk. eDRAM is also more efficient than eSRAM by a country mile.

 

[phanphare]

This is what I'm expecting. What they've said generally seems to indicate them going in this direction.

would be really awesome if this is where they're headed. unified fucking everything! they could actually name it the Nintendo Entertainment System again. unless they want to call it the Nintendo X. that'd be cool too.

We have had BC for two consoles - Wii and Wii U. We didn't for 3 - SNES, N64 and Gamecube. So maybe we get it, maybe we don't.

We got it on Wii and Wii U because the hardware was so similar, that it was basically a modified and overcloked Gamecube. No need to emulate, just clock down. I don't believe they'll stick to these restrictions in hardware design a third time.
Simply because it isn't supported anymore and Nintendo as a company is trying to reposition itself on the market.
It makes much more sense for them to invest in a new architecture, that they can then upgrade for the foreseeable future. It would also mean they had to invest in hardware solutions to keep the Gamepad compatible, which would drive the cost further up.

Same but different on the handheld side. First it was relatively cheap to keep hardware solutions onboard, later the hardware evolved from similar hardware. It wouldn't surprise me if the NXhandheld dropped 3DS BC and emulated DS downwards.

I was just pointing out the flaw in your logic that nobody is expecting backwards compatibility

 

[BronzeWolf]

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/141030qa/03.html
Takeda has also stressed that hardware efficiency is part of the "Nintendo DNA." I think that Nintendo may pursue efficiency, even if that component is slightly more expensive. SOI processes are usually very efficient and boast power savings over bulk. eDRAM is also more efficient than eSRAM by a country mile.

interesting catch. I like this quote:

>>Regarding the aspect of technology, even though the investment was not a significant amount in comparison to the entire cash and deposits the company owns, we now own a company in France called NERD (Nintendo European Research and Development SAS), which researches and develops advanced element technologies for us. The company originally had a partnership with Nintendo, and we eventually agreed that Nintendo would purchase it so it could become a part of the global Nintendo group. I picked this one example to answer your question and to explain that we are not necessarily taking on the type of tasks you suggested only within our company. When we have a good encounter with a prospective partner who owns promising technology, and if we will be able to establish a good and long-term relationship that is based on trust between the core individuals at the companies, we do not need to be hesitant. In this regard, the actual investments we make may increase in the future.

What is NERD doing?????

 

[Pokemaniac]

We have had BC for two consoles - Wii and Wii U. We didn't for 3 - SNES, N64 and Gamecube. So maybe we get it, maybe we don't.

We got it on Wii and Wii U because the hardware was so similar, that it was basically a modified and overcloked Gamecube. No need to emulate, just clock down. I don't believe they'll stick to these restrictions in hardware design a third time.
Simply because it isn't supported anymore and Nintendo as a company is trying to reposition itself on the market.
It makes much more sense for them to invest in a new architecture, that they can then upgrade for the foreseeable future. It would also mean they had to invest in hardware solutions to keep the Gamepad compatible, which would drive the cost further up.

Same but different on the handheld side. First it was relatively cheap to keep hardware solutions onboard, later the hardware evolved from similar hardware. It wouldn't surprise me if the NXhandheld dropped 3DS BC and emulated DS downwards.

Since they will likely go with ARM, 3DS BC should be easy.

For Wii U BC, there are a wide variety of hardware and software solutions they could realistically use to provide BC.

Also, the SNES was originally supposed to have NES BC, but it had to be dropped.

 

[sörine]

We have had BC for two consoles - Wii and Wii U. We didn't for 3 - SNES, N64 and Gamecube. So maybe we get it, maybe we don't.

We got it on Wii and Wii U because the hardware was so similar, that it was basically a modified and overcloked Gamecube. No need to emulate, just clock down. I don't believe they'll stick to these restrictions in hardware design a third time.
Simply because it isn't supported anymore and Nintendo as a company is trying to reposition itself on the market.
It makes much more sense for them to invest in a new architecture, that they can then upgrade for the foreseeable future. It would also mean they had to invest in hardware solutions to keep the Gamepad compatible, which would drive the cost further up.

Same but different on the handheld side. First it was relatively cheap to keep hardware solutions onboard, later the hardware evolved from similar hardware. It wouldn't surprise me if the NXhandheld dropped 3DS BC and emulated DS downwards.

Just counting numbers of backwards compatible platforms doesn't tell the real story, you have to look at when things were implemented and when you do you see a pretty clear shift in direction one way.

Not backwards compatible
Super Famicom/SNES (1990)
Nintendo 64 (1996)
Gamecube (2001)

Backwards compatible
Game Boy Advance (2001)
Nintendo DS (2004)
Wii (2006)
Nintendo 3DS (2011)
Wii U (2012)

For NX to make a complete break from any previous hardware compatibility would mark a new precedent for Nintendo and a total shift in strategy. Really I just don't see it, I think you'll be able to play *something* available today on whatever NX turns out to be next year.

And a little off topic but it's worth mentioning the SNES architecture was designed with NES backwards compatibility in mind even if the feature was eventually dropped before release.

 

[Neoxon]

Consumers are pushing away from dual purchasing though. Wii U already proves that, there are millions of Nintendo fans not bothering with the system since they can already get mostly the same sort of experiences on 3DS. This never happened with SNES/GB or Wii/DS though, as mobile technology improves and that barrier gets lower the games are becoming too similar to simultaneously support dual markets.

That's why Iwata specifically compared NX to being modeled after iOS and Android rather than the old console/handheld binary. Basically think of it in terms of the handheld being your iPhone, the console your iPad. You can play most of the same apps on both, although there might still be some exclusives depending on interface (Wii Sports), play style (Pokémon) or performance (Xenoblade).

I was implying that they just have one platform across multiple form factors (or two main ones, the console & the handheld).

 

[Doofcake]

they could actually name it the Nintendo Entertainment System again.

As fitting and awesome that name would be, I hate it when companies name a new product with the same exact name as one of their previous products (Prince of Persia, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit, Need for Speed, Medal of Honor, Doom)

 

[sörine]

I was implying that they just have one platform across multiple form factors (or two main ones, the console & the handheld).

Oh, that's totally what I agree with. The platform with be NX, but we'll get a host of devices built off of that.

 

[phanphare]

As fitting and awesome that name would be, I hate it when companies name a new product with the same exact name as one of their previous products (Prince of Persia, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit, Need for Speed, Medal of Honor, Doom)

I do as well but if they do go in that direction it'd be such a perfect name. almost too perfect...

 

[Candescence]

Considering the NX naming scheme, I could see thehandheld and console system having a naming theme that connects them but keeps them distinct - Nintendo DSX# and Nintendo UX#? The "#" is where the hardware iteration number would go for each major hardware upgrade ala iOS devices.

"Nintendo Entertainment System" would need tweaks to work better as a family name, though, it just doesn't sound 'modern'. Maybe NES-X?

 

[Rodin]

My biggest problem with them making NX bc with the WiiU is the fact that they'll be stuck with discs for a long time. I want cartridges, they are a better long term solution that also bring great advantages right from the start.

 

[Weltall Zero]

How could Nintendo possibly ditch BC? The Wii U's crippling flaw is its limited library, even though it had an one year headstart over the PS4 and was backwards compatible with the Wii's huge library. How in hell could a console with a tabula rasa for a library compete with a three year entrenched PS4? Who in the hell would buy that?

 

[phanphare]

Considering the NX naming scheme, I could see thehandheld and console system having a naming theme that connects them but keeps them distinct - Nintendo DSX# and Nintendo UX#? The "#" is where the hardware iteration number would go for each major hardware upgrade ala iOS devices.

"Nintendo Entertainment System" would need tweaks to work better as a family name, though, it just doesn't sound 'modern'. Maybe NES-X?

yeah I'm not really expecting them to go with the NES again. it'd just be really perfect if they are in fact trying to get every Nintendo gen under one roof.

 

[sörine]

NX is the codename but I could see it used in the final hardware branding. Maybe deemphasizing "Nintendo" like they did with Wii. Then each device could just be NX _______ (NX Pocket, NX XL, NX Cube, etc).

My major problem with them making NX bc with the WiiU is the fact that they'll be stuck with discs for a long time. I want cartridges, they are a better long term solution that also bring great advantages right from the start.

Physical media is a relic in general. Different devices may accept different media (and thus allow different backwards compatibility) but eventually Nintendo will want to push everyone towards digital. In fact don't be surprised if we see digital only NX devices a couple years in.

 

[Schnozberry]

I don't think a firmware/binary translation is possible unless they license that 360/Xbone tech (of which I really need to do more reading up on) or something similar. I don't know if another company even offers a similar product--I read on GAF here that it is truly unique. Translating on-the-fly would be out of the question, I can imagine.

Yes, there would be work involved, but even before IBM's openPOWER initiative, even before AMD's last few disastrous quarters and increased focus on consoles, they worked together to integrate the Wii U processor on an MCM. They also worked w/ Microsoft on the SoC in the 360 slim. APUs have performed well on SOI processes similar to IBM's (see Trinity as one example). It's just that AMD have relied more on TSMC lately and they use bulk silicon. I think SOI is poised for a comeback however, and Globalfoundries actually just announced a new, even more advanced SOI node (not that I expect it to be used on NX).

I believe the Xbox One backwards compatibility is a custom built software emulation solution. I was thinking something akin to LLVM where the NX would essentially load up a Virtual Machine for Wii/Wii U compatibility. Similar to what Apple did with Rosetta for their PowerPC to x86 transition, where they had certain cores doing translation and other cores executing finished code. Wii U compatibility would be limited due to the gamepad, and they'd probably only extend Wii backwards compatibility to first party tent pole titles.

 

[The End]

If nintendo is going to cut off hardware BC, now is the time. It's trivially easy to emulate anything from the Wii and earlier, and the Wii U has an incredible small library. If they did HD rereleases of Smash and MK8 with all DLC that would take care of most people.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

How could Nintendo possibly ditch BC? The Wii U's crippling flaw is its limited library, even though it had an one year headstart over the PS4 and was backwards compatible with the Wii's huge library. How in hell could a console with a tabula rasa for a library compete with a three year entrenched PS4? Who in the hell would buy that?

Hang on... so you're saying that the "crippling flaw" of the Wii U is a limited library even though it's backwards-compatible with practically the entire Wii disc/digital catalogue, and that any future system needs to be BC to compete... even though it's quite clear that BC didn't help Wii U in any way?

Um.

As for the point about consoles with "blank slates" for libraries competing, that's pretty much the situation PS4 was in and it's gone on to be very successful...

 

[Neoxon]

If nintendo is going to cut off hardware BC, now is the time. It's trivially easy to emulate anything from the Wii and earlier, and the Wii U has an incredible small library. If they did HD rereleases of Smash and MK8 with all DLC that would take care of most people.

Both are already in HD. Hell, Smash 4 is already 1080p/60fps. You could bump the likes of MK8, Splatoon, Super Mario 3D World, & Hyrule Warriors to 1080p as well as giving MK8 4-Player & Hyrule Warriors 60fps throughout.

 

[capitalCORN]

Don't pull an MS Nintendo, save yourself from backwards compatibility!

 

[Eusis]

This is the sticking point for me as well. I can't imagine Nintendo wanting to produce gamepads to be sold separately...but if they don't, Wii U BC would only appeal to a very limited userbase. It's going to be very interesting to see what they end up doing.

I'm kind of expecting it to be sold individually or even updated for it. But as a remote play/BC accessory rather than the main attraction again.

 

[Vanillalite]

Nintendo would go PPC->ARM because it's economically viable for a 2016 console to do just that. The rest from your post is irrelevant (example: devs had no issue doing cross-gen PPC/x86).

Except they already had engines in place? I mean fucking seriously? That's what you come with?

 

[The End]

Both are already in HD. Hell, Smash 4 is already 1080p/60fps. You could bump the likes of MK8, Splatoon, Super Mario 3D World, & Hyrule Warriors to 1080p as well as giving MK8 4-Player & Hyrule Warriors 60fps throughout.

Yes, I know they're both in HD. I'm saying that MP-centric games like Smash and MK8 (and let's not forget splatoon) are the kind people really want to keep playing. It would make sense for Nintendo to port those over. I'm sure Tecmo Koei would much rather just do a full-priced Hyrule Warriors 2.

 

[phanphare]

Don't pull an MS Nintendo, save yourself from backwards compatibility!

they won't pull a MS. backwards compatibility will be there day 1 if it's included ;p

 

[evilromero]

This is what I'm expecting, though I'm 50/50 on if it'll have backwards compatibility.

And to be honest, the modest power increase wouldn't disappoint me. I just want to see a better release schedule with the new shared family model.

 

[PdotMichael]

BC for the console NX would mean to support and pay for the proprietary wireless technolgy for years. Broadcom would love it but I don't think Nintendo does.

 

[Schnozberry]

Except they already has engines in place? I mean fucking seriously? That's what you come with?

Most modern engines have very little issue supporting multiple CPU architectures simultaneously.

 

[Fourth Storm]

What is NERD doing?????

According to their website, it's very exciting, but top secret. We do know they are working on something involving the cloud.

I believe the Xbox One backwards compatibility is a custom built software emulation solution. I was thinking something akin to LLVM where the NX would essentially load up a Virtual Machine for Wii/Wii U compatibility. Similar to what Apple did with Rosetta for their PowerPC to x86 transition, where they had certain cores doing translation and other cores executing finished code. Wii U compatibility would be limited due to the gamepad, and they'd probably only extend Wii backwards compatibility to first party tent pole titles.

As I said, I need to read up more on what's going on with 360 BC. I could imagine a software solution like that may end up requiring even more R&D than just throwing Espresso on there. Unless they license the same tech (a poster here is apparently familiar w/ the creators of it, but I would need to look up that post again). It wouldn't be easy going the software route.

With Wii U BC, they could still rewrite the OS so that the Gamepad isn't required. Is it even required right now to start software? I would have to test it out--I just always use it, but can't remember trying to use a Pro controller or Wii Remote. Regardless, they could a)make the Gamepad compatible w NX for old Wii "Users." b)sell a Gamepad seperately (costs on that thing have to come down eventually--maybe a redesign would help). c)Have the handheld act as a next-gen Gamepad (I think we all expect this in some capacity). d)As I said, make it so that software that doesn't absolutely require the Gamepad fully playable w/ alternate controls (already the case in some instances, if I am remember correctly--been a long week.)

As a counter to the argument that people who own a Wii U would just keep that hooked up to play legacy software, I say this: Nintendo have shown repeatedly that they want consoles to not take up much space and just work in the background. How would having 2 consoles hooked up meld w/ this value?

 

[phanphare]

According to their website, it's very exciting, but top secret. We do know they are working on something involving the cloud.


As I said, I need to read up more on what's going on with 360 BC. Honestly, a software solution like that may end up taking up even more R&D than just throwing Espresso on there. Unless they license the same tech (a poster here is apparently familiar w/ the creators of it, but I would need to look up that post again). It wouldn't be easy going the software route.

With Wii U BC, they could still rewrite the OS so that the Gamepad isn't required. Honestly, is it required right now to start software? I would have to test it out--I just always use it, but can't remember trying to use a Pro controller or Wii Remote. Regardless, they could a)make the Gamepad compatible w NX for old Wii "Users." b)sell a Gamepad seperately (costs on that thing have to come down eventually--maybe a redesign would help). c)Have the handheld act as a next-gen Gamepad (I think we all expect this in some capacity). d)As I said, make it so that software that doesn't absolutely require the Gamepad fully playable w/ alternate controls (already the case in some instances, if I am remember correctly--been a long week.)

As a counter to the argument that people who own a Wii U would just keep that hooked up to play legacy software, I say this: Nintendo have shown repeatedly that they want consoles to not take up much space and just work in the background. How would having 2 consoles hooked up meld w/ this value?

no it's not, you can power on the console and navigate around the OS with the Pro Controller. if you press X it switches wara wara plaza with the tiles on the TV. so assuming the game you're playing supports the Pro Controller you don't need to ever touch the gamepad, really.

 

[The End]

And to be honest, the modest power increase wouldn't disappoint me. I just want to see a better release schedule with the new shared family model.

If they announce a fully shared platform (as they should) I expect yosp to pitch a vita at Reggie's head.

 

[Trago]

no it's not, you can power on the console and navigate around the OS with the Pro Controller. if you press X it switches wara wara plaza with the tiles on the TV. so assuming the game you're playing supports the Pro Controller you don't need to ever touch the gamepad, really.

You do need the gamepad to navigate the system settings tho.

 

[phanphare]

You do need the gamepad to navigate the system settings tho.

yeah that's true lol. I don't know why but it is.

 

[sörine]

I still don't think revising the Gamepad is a bad idea either. A smaller size low res secondary touch screen isn't going to break the bank, just don't make it the tablet sized monster it is on Wii U. Might not be ideal for off-tv, but then NX also coming in handheld flavors sort of naturally solves that anyway.

 

[boiled goose]

I'm not sure backward compatibility would be guaranteed, given the Wii U's small install base it might be a good time to start fresh.

I suppose you could also look at it the other way, backward compatibility would give the Wii U games a second opportunity to bring in revenue.

Either way, I don't think an AMD APU would be all that surprising.

No BC would be disastrous. The small but loyal wiiu base would be given the middle finger if their digital content didn't transfer.

Nintendo already has distrust when it comes to digital content management. They need to get it right fROM the start or nx will fail like the wiiu did.

Even longtime Nintendo fans were or are hesitant to upgrade to wiiu for this reason.

 

[Schnozberry]

As I said, I need to read up more on what's going on with 360 BC. Honestly, a software solution like that may end up taking up even more R&D than just throwing Espresso on there. Unless they license the same tech (a poster here is apparently familiar w/ the creators of it, but I would need to look up that post again). It wouldn't be easy going the software route.

With Wii U BC, they could still rewrite the OS so that the Gamepad isn't required. Honestly, is it required right now to start software? I would have to test it out--I just always use it, but can't remember trying to use a Pro controller or Wii Remote. Regardless, they could a)make the Gamepad compatible w NX for old Wii "Users." b)sell a Gamepad seperately (costs on that thing have to come down eventually--maybe a redesign would help). c)Have the handheld act as a next-gen Gamepad (I think we all expect this in some capacity). d)As I said, make it so that software that doesn't absolutely require the Gamepad fully playable w/ alternate controls (already the case in some instances, if I am remember correctly--been a long week.)

As a counter to the argument that people who own a Wii U would just keep that hooked up to play legacy software, I say this: Nintendo have shown repeatedly that they want consoles to not take up much space and just work in the background. How would having 2 consoles hooked up meld w/ this value?

I think both paths are viable, it just depends on what variables introduce more cost and complexity. Do you seek out binary translation or emulation, or do you introduce IBM and have them shrink espresso again and embed it in AMD's APU design for NX? Without knowing the difficult or cost introduced by either option, it's just raw speculation on my part.

My thought would be if they want to go 22nm SOI and work with multiple hardware partners, why not just leverage a newer POWER core and put AMD to work for the GPU? For instance, Newer PowerPC chips from IBM already have EDRAM compatibility off the shelf, offer better IPC and Performance Per Watt than AMD's CPU cores at the same clock, and would guarantee full backwards compatibility with minimal effort.

 

[phanphare]

I still don't think revising the Gamepad is a bad idea either. A smaller size low res secondary touch screen isn't going to break the bank, just don't make it the tablet sized monster it is on Wii U. Might not be ideal for off-tv, but then NX also coming in handheld flavors sort of naturally solves that anyway.

I've always held the belief that if the gamepad looked more like a standard controller it would have been more accepted, at least by core gamers. it may not be revolutionary but it's extremely convenient and makes the entire console experience much more pleasant.

 

[Vanillalite]

Most modern engines have very little issue supporting multiple CPU architectures simultaneously.

Zero reason to have a modern engine support Power PC which is being gimped along by IBM's server business. Hell it isn't even called Power PC anymore.

 

[evilromero]

If they announce a fully shared platform (as they should) I expect yosp to pitch a vita at Reggie's head.

At this point I want to see the family dev model if it means playing the types of games they've released on the 3DS on my TV. Stuff like Tomodachi Life and Luigi's Mansion 2? Hell yes!

 

[PdotMichael]

I've always held the belief that if the gamepad looked more like a standard controller it would have been more accepted, at least by core gamers. it may not be revolutionary but it's extremely convenient and makes the entire console experience much more pleasant.

The gamepad with its expensive display and wireless technolgy lead to a bunch of problems like a high price and a smaller budget for core parts of the console.
Also Nintendo wasn't capable of providing any killer apps so trying it again would be quite the stupid idea.

 

[Fourth Storm]

no it's not, you can power on the console and navigate around the OS with the Pro Controller. if you press X it switches wara wara plaza with the tiles on the TV. so assuming the game you're playing supports the Pro Controller you don't need to ever touch the gamepad, really.

Thanks, that's as I thought. I'm pretty sure I've experimented myself in the past, but I just drew a blank. Reworking the system settings menu for a new console is a given anyway.

I think both paths are viable, it just depends on what variables introduce more cost and complexity. Do you seek out binary translation or emulation, or do you introduce IBM and have them shrink espresso again and embed it in AMD's APU design for NX? Without knowing the difficult or cost introduced by either option, it's just raw speculation on my part.

My thought would be if they want to go 22nm SOI and work with multiple hardware partners, why not just leverage a newer POWER core and put AMD to work for the GPU? For instance, Newer PowerPC chips from IBM already have EDRAM compatibility off the shelf, offer better IPC and Performance Per Watt than AMD's CPU cores at the same clock, and would guarantee full backwards compatibility with minimal effort.

I think the problem w/ creating/leveraging a new PPC core would be that it would take a tremendous amount of R&D. IBM also never had anything suitable for a handheld device, so they'd truly be working from scratch if they wanted to use the same CPU core across form-factors. They also never had a 64-bit CPU which was binary compatible w/ the 750, afaik. It would just be too much work, and IBM is refocusing, so it would take alot of money to convince them to help out, I would imagine. ARMv8 is still the way to go, imo. Integrating Espresso on the SoC would just buy them some time and good will until their unified OS completely replaces the old hardware BC methods.

 

[blu]

Except they already had engines in place? I mean fucking seriously? That's what you come with?

You went on how PPC was some kind of an architectural problem. I gave you an example how at the start of this generation practically everybody was doing PPC + x86. It doesn't matter what they had in place. It was that either the same engines were dong both PPC and x86, or if it was different engines the production pipelines were sufficiently similar so that devs could pull a cross-gen.

bottomline: the PPC architecture had virtually nothing to do with wiiU's issues.

 

[The End]

I've always held the belief that if the gamepad looked more like a standard controller it would have been more accepted, at least by core gamers. it may not be revolutionary but it's extremely convenient and makes the entire console experience much more pleasant.

Conversely, if the gamepad had a denser, capacitative touchscreen it may have accomplished what it set out to do. By miyamoto's own admission "real" tablets outclassed the gamepad so quickly and so thoroughly that the novelty appeal was lost.

 

[shandy706]

Nintendo, if you need help working miracles/magic with backwards compatibility, call Microsoft. You guys have worked together before. You can do it.