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[Buster Machine]

I don't think this is a SCORE! against religious people as you would like to believe since after all.we as a society can only function properly because people do live their daily lives under the constant threat of "if you do this or that, you will be punished, so you'd better be not doing those." That's why we have rules and laws.

Reminds me of a lecture in an IT class I took. I can't remember how the teacher got on the tangent, but she asked the class how many people would loot and steal if there were no laws in place. Every person except me and one other person raised their hand. Even more surprising was the teacher then went in on the two us about how she didn't believe we were telling the truth. That was a real wtf moment.

I mean, the actual fedora? Yeh.

The arrogant posturIng? Really no. Just as bad as any religious preachiness in frequency in my experience, perhaps even more so these days.

Jesus at comparing the plight of the arrogant atheist (which, come on, your post isn't exactly downplaying) with a person proud of their homosexuality in the face of an oppressive society.

I mean, this is almost too opposed perfect...

It's been pointed out multiple times in this thread, but this shit will never stop being ignorant. That poster was making an analogy, not playing oppression olympics. Or are you going to ignore the actual topic that spawned this thread in the first place and insinuate that atheists don't actually face any biases and when they do it's because they're "arrogant"?

Some asshole on social media doesn't compare to people using "divine" texts to justify bigotry and making people's lives worse no matter how many times you people attempt that stupid false equivalency. There's a thread on the front page about some religious nut using the bible to justify going to war with NK and Trump being president. But both sides.

 

[Zakalwe]

Oh please, are you really going to downplay people being kicked out of their houses by fundamentalist parents for admitting they're not religious? Are you going to suggest that individuals who publicly admit to being atheist don't immediately become targets for suspicion and mistrust by many or most people? How do you think a presidential candidate would fare if they said they don't believe in any kind of god?

There's a strong anti-atheist bias in the US. Did you see the poll that pops up every so often which found that atheists are trusted less than rapists in this country?

It's especially fun when gay people who are treated like shit by religious homophobes become atheists. Then they get to enjoy a double dose of discrimination if they dare not to hide who they are.

What are you even doing?

The majority of aetheist opinion I have read expressed by the everage person has had a distinct tinge of arrogance. That's my experience, and I think it's probably natural given the nature of what atheism is, which is why people should be careful.

And lol at atheism being an obstacle for employment, maybe in a few cases here and there.

You're being really weird.

 

[Always-honest]

Theist - moral
Atheist - amoral

Makes sense when you think about it

Mnnope. How does that line of "thinking" work?

 

[ResidentWeevil13]

An immediate family member of mine was concerned during the US primaries when he heard rumors that Bernie Sanders was an atheist. I pressed him on it, saying, "So what if he is?" and he responded with something like "There's something wrong with someone who doesn't believe in God." I don't think I had ever been more disappointed in this person in my life, that is until he became a die-hard Trump supporter.

 

[Zakalwe]

It's been pointed out multiple times in this thread, but this shit will never stop being ignorant. That poster was making an analogy, not playing oppression olympics. Or are you going to ignore the actual topic that spawned this thread in the first place and insinuate that atheists don't actually face any biases and when they do it's because they're "arrogant".

Some asshole on social media doesn't compare to people using "divine" texts to justify bigotry and making people's lives worse no matter how many times you people attempt that stupid false equivalency. There's a thread on the front page about some religious nut using the bible to justify going to war with NK and Trump being president. But both sides.

Jesus at the conflation here... you people are on a trip ITT.

I said it was just as bad as religious preachiness, which it seems to be in my experience. I see just as many arrogant atheist shit-posts in religious conversations as I do the religious.

And this is absolutely a factor, whether it's a natural push back against fundamentalist religious views, it still exists. Champions like the incredibly unpleasant Dawkins don't help.

 

[Monocle]

What are you even doing?

The majority of aetheist opinion I have read expressed by the everage person has had a distinct tinge of arrogance. That's my experience, and I think it's probably natural given the nature of what atheism is, which is why people should be careful.

And lol at atheism being an obstacle for employment, maybe in a few cases here and there.

You're being really weird.

You're being really naive if you don't see that the supposed arrogance of atheists is mostly an invented problem that originates with people's skewed norms, where it's the most natural thing in the world for people to reference God and faith constantly, but it's offensive to hear people talking about their disbelief in God and the damaging effects of religion in the same hyperbolic terms many of us use to talk about movies or regular life stuff. Real arrogance is acting like nonreligious people who value evidence and don't take dumb claims at face value should shut up and fall in line.

Arrogant and smug and all the other dumb words people use to shame open atheists are flat out hypocritical coming from religious people who were born with the privilege to dominate every conversation about religion, ethics, morality, public policy, sexuality, and so on. I'm not claiming to know things I can't know. I'm claiming that people who do, don't.

Also, unless you live in some liberal oasis, you're going to encounter more than the occasional obstacle to employment for not putting on a religious charade.

 

[Zakalwe]

You're being really naive if you don't see that the supposed arrogance of atheists is mostly an invented problem that originates with people's skewed norms, where it's the most natural thing in the world for people to reference God and faith constantly, but it's offensive to hear people talking about their disbelief in God and the damaging effects of religion in the same hyperbolic terms many of us use to talk about movies or regular life stuff. Real arrogance is acting like nonreligious people who value evidence and don't take dumb claims at face value should shut up and fall in line.

Arrogant and smug and all the other dumb words people use to shame open atheists are flat out hypocritical coming from religious people who were born with the privilege to dominate every conversation about religion, ethics, morality, public policy, sexuality, and so on. I'm not claiming to know things I can't know. I'm claiming that people who do, don't.

Also, unless you live in some liberal oasis, you're going to encounter more than the occasional obstacle to employment for not putting on a religious charade.

Never in my years alive have I heard of a single person being discriminated against for a job position because of their lack of belief in a god: Sure it's happened, it must have happened, but I've literally never heard of it (or if I have it was such a rare case it didn't register).

And I'm agnostic, was atheist for most my life, and you're really exaggerating imo.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Never in my years alive have I heard of a single person being discriminated against for a job position because of their lack of belief in a god: Sure it's happened, it must have happened, but I've literally never heard of it (or if I have it was such a rare case it didn't register).

And I'm agnostic, was atheist for most my life, and you're really exaggerating imo.

You use an argument from ignorance (I don't see it happening therefore it doesn't happen) and then misunderstand that agnostic and atheist aren't mutually exclusive. Sorry if your judgement on this topic doesn't seem very reliable.

 

[Monocle]

Never in my years alive have I heard of a single person being discriminated against for a job position because of their lack of belief in a god: Sure it's happened, it must have happened, but I've literally never heard of it (or if I have it was such a rare case it didn't register).

And I'm agnostic, was atheist for most my life, and you're really exaggerating imo.

This means next to nothing unless you've polled a representative sample of atheists about their experiences with discrimination. Like Sutton Dagger pointed out, it's an argument from ignorance. It has no weight.

P.S. While it doesn't relate to the US, maybe this thread will remind you of the existential threat that atheists still face in some parts of the world.

 

[TheJoRu]

Agnosticism refers to knowledge. Since absolutely no one (we're talking 100% of all humans ever) has any direct knowledge or certainty about the existence of god (beyond their unsubstantiated claims and beliefs), the term applies to literally everybody ever, and is thus fairly meaningless by all metrics.

Well, you say there are unsubstantiated claims, and so agnosticism is about refuting those kinds of claims as unscientific and thus not something worth listening to. There are many who profess to know, and some even try to say there is scientific evidence for it; these people are not agnostic whether they "actually" know or not, and agnosticism opposes their views. Depending on your personal angle you can be very open to the idea of the existence or non-existence of deities being scientifically proven, or you have a stronger view that it cannot be proven; either way it's an acceptance of not knowing. I'll agree that it's a broad term and many people, believers and non-believers alike, apply, but it's not that broad.

But yeah, agnostic atheist is definitely something you can be, as is agnostic theist, but if so these beliefs cannot be substantiated by claims of being in the know. That's the distinction, the way I see it.

 

[Zakalwe]

You use an argument from ignorance (I don't see it happening therefore it doesn't happen) and then misunderstand that agnostic and atheist aren't mutually exclusive. Sorry if your judgement on this topic doesn't seem very reliable.

This means next to nothing unless you've polled a representative sample of atheists about their experiences with discrimination. Like Sutton Dagger pointed out, it's an argument from ignorance. It has no weight.

P.S. While it doesn't relate to the US, maybe this thread will remind you of the existential threat that atheists still face in some parts of the world.

Haha, peoples pls...

Firstly, I didn't misunderstand atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive.

Secondly, /obviously/ my experience is limited. Obviously my example is anecdotal. You don't have to mansplain 'appeal to ignorance'. Jesus...

Yes, in parts of the world every type of belief is persecuted to varying degrees, that doesn't change the fact that there's a very strong tinge of arrogance running through a large amount the discussion on the aethist side. We see it in every single conversation online.

It's a very common thing, denying that is weird.

 

[Abstruse Moose]

Haha, peoples pls...

Firstly, I didn't misunderstand atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive.

Secondly, /obviously/ my experience is limited. Obviously my example is anecdotal. You don't have to mansplain 'appeal to ignorance'. Jesus...

Yes, in parts of the world every type of belief is persecuted to varying degrees, that doesn't change the fact that there's a very strong tinge of arrogance running through a large amount the discussion on the aethist side. We see it in every single conversation online.

It's a very common thing, denying that is weird.

How would a person tell another person that belief without evidence is misguided without sounding arrogant to that person?

 

[HazySaiyan]

Far too many atheists are stupidly aggressive with their opinions, the memes get the self-righteous arrogance right.

Say "there is no god", but you don't /have/ to tip your fedora while you tell It.

The difference is when atheists get aggressive with their opinions it's usually being a dumbass on Reddit or making a YouTube video, when religious people do it, it usually results in death or oppression.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

The difference is when atheists get aggressive with their opinions it's usually being a dumbass on Reddit or making a YouTube video, when religious people do it, it usually results in death or oppression.

I wish the worst thing we had to worry about from religious zealots was making cringe worthy forum posts.

Meanwhile, we have a thread currently up about a minister of the Malaysian government calling for a genocide of Atheists...

 

[Zakalwe]

How would a person tell another person that belief without evidence is misguided without sounding arrogant to that person?

Respectfully?

The difference is when atheists get aggressive with their opinions it's usually being a dumbass on Reddit or making a YouTube video, when religious people do it, it usually results in death or oppression.

Which is why I can understand why there is an arrogant edge a lot of the time pushing back against it.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Haha, peoples pls...

Firstly, I didn't misunderstand atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive.

And I'm agnostic, was atheist for most my life, and you're really exaggerating imo.

You are so implying you are not an atheist anymore.
So are you a theist or did you actually misunderstand agnosticism?

Edit: The "so" as my third word makes me sound weirdly aggressive, I think. I did not intend for it to be there.

 

[Zakalwe]

You are so implying you are not an atheist anymore.
So are you a theist or did you actually misunderstand agnosticism?

Oh, you got me.

Edit: I don't actually know what I believe right now. The universe certainly feels pretty fucking stark, I could never imagine a god of any kind outside of fiction.

Who knows, I'll let you know when I do.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

The double standard society has toward outspoken Atheists is insane. Look at something I saw in the earlier thread I mentioned:

There are two sets of idiots in this story. The idiots who would kill because a book says so as well as the government, and the atheists who don't understand the meaning of being one and still congregate like a fucking religion.

For some context, all the aforementioned Atheists in that story have done is take of photo of them smiling at a bar and post it on Facebook.

 

[Doc Holliday]

You know what's funny...

People who complain about athiests being arrogant turn around and act exactly the same when it comes to debating global warming deniers, anti vaxxers, and flat earthers.

Religion is the same shit, it just gets more respect.

 

[Zakalwe]

The double standard society has toward outspoken Atheists is insane.

Every atheist I've met personally in my life bar a handful at most have been, at least in front of me, respectful and undeserving of any kind of backlash. The vocal minority of shitty atheists are pretty fucking loud, though, and they can be incredibly obnoxious.

And as many of these conversations happen on social media which is, in it's nature, detached and ephemeral in nature, the conversation can get much shorter, and blunter, and both sides start feeling that friction.

I've read people start arguments on social media that evolve into respectful conversation quite often. Someone will make a fleeting remark as an emotional reaction to a piece, people become offended and knee-jerk back, people rush in saying "here we go again" on both sides, and through it all the two main opponents get more and more articulate as they realise they need to put more effort in to making their voices heard. By the time they're done they both leave slightly flustered but happy they managed to reach an understanding, or at least expressed themselves more intelligently, while the people who rushed through carry the friction of their original bluntness.

And then on top of this you get the actual shit-post meme level atheism and fundamental all gonna burn religion.

I mean, all sorts of other shit happens too of course, what I'm getting at is that Atheism is part of a screaming match between always idiots and visiting idiots, and their idiot loudness is affecting everyone. It's part of a respectful conversation, too, but respectful tends to quietly carry on.

Of course there's a hostility toward Atheism, it's part of a volatile conversation even without the above.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Shit like this is like when your 80-year old grandmother tells you she supports gay rights, but really wishes those gays would just not make a big deal about it. Utterly disgusting.

Atheists are still widely hated in many places around the world. In fact, pretty much everywhere outside of northern Europe. Studies like this point out the widespread bias, but you don't have to look far to see real anti-atheist discrimination playing out, often with deadly consequences.

Within the last year alone, you have cases of atheists being condemned to death, beaten to death, and hacked to death for no reason other than their atheism.

Atheists are banned from holding office in 7 US states. These restrictions are clearly unconstitutional and would be struck down by the Supreme Court if challenged, but can you imagine if, say, the Texas state constitution said blacks or women can't hold office? I guess it doesn't matter much, because to get elected in the US as an open atheist is virtually impossible. In hypothetical polls, 40% of Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist regardless of anything else. That's more than 38% that are unwilling to vote for a Muslim. In the most recent election, you had top DNC officials literally advocating for anti-atheist bigotry.

If you spend any time at all lurking r/atheism, or similar atheist forums, you'll see that many of the posts there are about kids being disowned by their parents or being disowned by their friends for coming out as an atheist. There's literally a faq and guide about it.

So the next time you feel like complaining about those annoying euphoric atheists, think about the larger context of the situation.

Good post. Quoting for new page.

I'm not going to worry about tone until religious people stop trying to strip away minority rights, stop calling into question atheists' abilities to be good leaders and parents, and stop throwing their support behind dangerously idiotic politicians. Also, they should probably quit proselytizing too.

Complaining about arrogant atheists strikes me as being a little like complaining about out and proud gay people who don't "tone it down."

After centuries of fuckery and oppression with horrific consequences, you kind of lose your right to engage in tone policing.

Fucking this.

Jesus at comparing the plight of the arrogant atheist (which, come on, your post isn't exactly downplaying) with a person proud of their homosexuality in the face of an oppressive society.

I mean, this is almost too opposed perfect...

What? It's a valid analogy. Monocle is gay BTW, so your concern trolling impresses no one.

You know what's funny...

People who complain about athiests being arrogant turn around and act exactly the same when it comes to debating global warming deniers, anti vaxxers, and flat earthers.

Religion is the same shit, it just gets more respect.

Yup. Religion gets a free pass for its dumb-as-shit zero-evidence beliefs, because "tradition" or some such.

 

[AuthenticM]

love this

 

[Zakalwe]

love this

I mean yeh, this is pretty much true.

It doesn't change the fact the boiling pot is the conversation, and you don't need guns for those. The guns come afterwards.

Just because Atheist idiots aren't as likely to shoot up the place, doesn't mean they're not a part of the hate-flinging.

I'm not even trying to level out the ultimate versions of these because fuck that, the root of it all is the fucking problem. And that's just anger, hatred, fear, etc...

Blaming religion, or atheism, it comes long before these things.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Do a lot of atheists compare their plight to gay peoples? Just curious.

 

[Viewt]

Shit like this is like when your 80-year old grandmother tells you she supports gay rights, but really wishes those gays would just not make a big deal about it. Utterly disgusting.

Atheists are still widely hated in many places around the world. In fact, pretty much everywhere outside of northern Europe. Studies like this point out the widespread bias, but you don't have to look far to see real anti-atheist discrimination playing out, often with deadly consequences.

Within the last year alone, you have cases of atheists being condemned to death, beaten to death, and hacked to death for no reason other than their atheism.

Atheists are banned from holding office in 7 US states. These restrictions are clearly unconstitutional and would be struck down by the Supreme Court if challenged, but can you imagine if, say, the Texas state constitution said blacks or women can't hold office? I guess it doesn't matter much, because to get elected in the US as an open atheist is virtually impossible. In hypothetical polls, 40% of Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist regardless of anything else. That's more than 38% that are unwilling to vote for a Muslim. In the most recent election, you had top DNC officials literally advocating for anti-atheist bigotry.

If you spend any time at all lurking r/atheism, or similar atheist forums, you'll see that many of the posts there are about kids being disowned by their parents or being disowned by their friends for coming out as an atheist. There's literally a faq and guide about it.

So the next time you feel like complaining about those annoying euphoric atheists, think about the larger context of the situation.

For the record, I'm an atheist, myself. I also (obviously, I'd hope) don't condone or feel apathetic about the plight of oppressed people anywhere, regardless of their religious (or in this case, non-religious) affiliation.

What I'm talking about are atheists who make their atheism the cornerstone of their persona, who bring it up at any opportunity as an opportunity to unload every talking point or micro-aggression they come across. It's an annoying and boring trait. It'd be the same thing if it was any other topic. If you're not the kind of atheist I'm talking about, then you should be able to understand that I'm not talking about you.

Anywho, you're more than welcome to be utterly disgusted by my comment, but it's a little insulting to compare being annoyed by annoying atheists to homophobia.

 

[AuthenticM]

Shit like this is like when your 80-year old grandmother tells you she supports gay rights, but really wishes those gays would just not make a big deal about it. Utterly disgusting.

Atheists are still widely hated in many places around the world. In fact, pretty much everywhere outside of northern Europe. Studies like this point out the widespread bias, but you don't have to look far to see real anti-atheist discrimination playing out, often with deadly consequences.

Within the last year alone, you have cases of atheists being condemned to death, beaten to death, and hacked to death for no reason other than their atheism.

Atheists are banned from holding office in 7 US states. These restrictions are clearly unconstitutional and would be struck down by the Supreme Court if challenged, but can you imagine if, say, the Texas state constitution said blacks or women can't hold office? I guess it doesn't matter much, because to get elected in the US as an open atheist is virtually impossible. In hypothetical polls, 40% of Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist regardless of anything else. That's more than 38% that are unwilling to vote for a Muslim. In the most recent election, you had top DNC officials literally advocating for anti-atheist bigotry.

If you spend any time at all lurking r/atheism, or similar atheist forums, you'll see that many of the posts there are about kids being disowned by their parents or being disowned by their friends for coming out as an atheist. There's literally a faq and guide about it.

So the next time you feel like complaining about those annoying euphoric atheists, think about the larger context of the situation.

great post

 

[Westbahnhof]

Do a lot of atheists compare their plight to gay peoples? Just curious.

I've only seen gay atheists do it so far, but I'm sure it happens on general.

 

[Azoor]

as an atheist, whenever someone says "as an atheist," I immediately think of /r/atheism and dudes like Sam Harris so

sure, fuck atheists

EDIT: sorry I edited my post for lulz and clarification

I'm an atheist who happened to like Sam Harris, he is a pretty well spoken guy and always enjoy hearing his thoughts even if I disagree with him.

 

[y2dvd]

Do a lot of atheists compare their plight to gay peoples? Just curious.

In several countries they probably do.

 

[Zakalwe]

Shit like this is like when your 80-year old grandmother tells you she supports gay rights, but really wishes those gays would just not make a big deal about it. Utterly disgusting.

Atheists are still widely hated in many places around the world. In fact, pretty much everywhere outside of northern Europe. Studies like this point out the widespread bias, but you don't have to look far to see real anti-atheist discrimination playing out, often with deadly consequences.

Within the last year alone, you have cases of atheists being condemned to death, beaten to death, and hacked to death for no reason other than their atheism.

Atheists are banned from holding office in 7 US states. These restrictions are clearly unconstitutional and would be struck down by the Supreme Court if challenged, but can you imagine if, say, the Texas state constitution said blacks or women can't hold office? I guess it doesn't matter much, because to get elected in the US as an open atheist is virtually impossible. In hypothetical polls, 40% of Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist regardless of anything else. That's more than 38% that are unwilling to vote for a Muslim. In the most recent election, you had top DNC officials literally advocating for anti-atheist bigotry.

If you spend any time at all lurking r/atheism, or similar atheist forums, you'll see that many of the posts there are about kids being disowned by their parents or being disowned by their friends for coming out as an atheist. There's literally a faq and guide about it.

So the next time you feel like complaining about those annoying euphoric atheists, think about the larger context of the situation.

This is how it scales and its terrifying.

 

[Audioboxer]

Shit like this is like when your 80-year old grandmother tells you she supports gay rights, but really wishes those gays would just not make a big deal about it. Utterly disgusting.

Atheists are still widely hated in many places around the world. In fact, pretty much everywhere outside of northern Europe. Studies like this point out the widespread bias, but you don't have to look far to see real anti-atheist discrimination playing out, often with deadly consequences.

Within the last year alone, you have cases of atheists being condemned to death, beaten to death, and hacked to death for no reason other than their atheism.

Atheists are banned from holding office in 7 US states. These restrictions are clearly unconstitutional and would be struck down by the Supreme Court if challenged, but can you imagine if, say, the Texas state constitution said blacks or women can't hold office? I guess it doesn't matter much, because to get elected in the US as an open atheist is virtually impossible. In hypothetical polls, 40% of Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist regardless of anything else. That's more than 38% that are unwilling to vote for a Muslim. In the most recent election, you had top DNC officials literally advocating for anti-atheist bigotry.

If you spend any time at all lurking r/atheism, or similar atheist forums, you'll see that many of the posts there are about kids being disowned by their parents or being disowned by their friends for coming out as an atheist. There's literally a faq and guide about it.

So the next time you feel like complaining about those annoying euphoric atheists, think about the larger context of the situation.

Missed this post originally until it has now been requoted, but it says things better than me and with 50% less rambling lol. Well said. I tried to touch on explaining why some, especially youngsters, end up going full internet rebellion mode for a short spell of time after escaping what can be quite difficult childhoods. As I've said in the other ongoing topic about Malaysia, even in the face of fedora tipping and people getting a bit antagonizing online, keep it in perspective what that really does. Often it simply scales to being offensive, you rarely, very rarely, ever see self-identifying atheists use coordinated violence. As I also said most people grow out of their rebellion stages of getting in everyone's face about them not believing in God, and do take it back a few notches.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Never in my years alive have I heard of a single person being discriminated against for a job position because of their lack of belief in a god: Sure it's happened, it must have happened, but I've literally never heard of it (or if I have it was such a rare case it didn't register).

And I'm agnostic, was atheist for most my life, and you're really exaggerating imo.

It takes a few minutes to find a lot of personal anecdotes on Reddit. The few times I've occasionaly come across it took the form of preferential treatment towards outspoken Christians in promotion rather than explicit anti-atheist discrimination (my first store and department managers at my current job).

Really it's pretty easy, if occasionaly frustrating, to keep my atheism a secret in the workplace. Most people here just want to do our job and go home. When someone goes beyond breif mention of their church activity or background to evangelizing, it creates conflicts with the other Christians who have differing doctines. It's surprising how many Christians feel other Christians are fake Christians.

These days I don't hide it, but delibsrately don't bring it up in front of certain people. Customers are worse about this stuff than my co-workers.

 

[Zakalwe]

It takes a few minutes to find a lot of personal anecdotes on Reddit. The few times I've occasionaly come across it took the form of preferential treatment towards outspoken Christians in promotion rather than explicit anti-atheist discrimination (my first store and department managers at my current job).

Really it's pretty easy, if occasionaly frustrating, to keep my atheism a secret in the workplace. Most people here just want to do our job and go home. When someone goes beyond breif mention of their church activity or background to evangelizing, it creates conflicts with the other Christians who have differing doctines. It's surprising how many Christians feel other Christians are fake Christians.

These days I don't hide it, but delibsrately don't bring it up in front of certain people. Customers are worse about this stuff than my co-workers.

I think it must be either very different in the UK, or my experience is far outside the norm. Both are possible.

 

[PillarEN]

Do a lot of atheists compare their plight to gay peoples? Just curious.

No. Lol. In my country of origin atheists are the majority. When I'm in America it never even occurred to me that I have to defend atheism. Even that sounds dumb. I never considered that my disbelief in God is something I would even have to bring up or defend. I never lived in the Bible belt though and America is massive so different tales in different parts. Like many people who I associate with may be religious or somewhat religious in the States (many just in tradition but are completely passive), but it never once caused an issue if a person was of X religion or was not religious.

And if it was a problem I'd just keep it on the down low and laugh in private how people in my community were so heavily against a non-believer. Never mind the Malaysia thread. That in no way is part of my reality in any country I have lived in. Thus no, being an atheist is not the equivalent of being a sexual minority in the places where I have lived and nobody I know would even think that.
Obviously religion or the lack of religion is perceived differently in different parts of the world. This post would be endless if I was supposed to explain how atheists are treated in all 300 and some countries on this planet and all the intricacies on how much or little it would impact them.

Though it is pathetic that being an Atheist is a death sentence in American politics. Like, what? Straight up nuts.

 

[HazySaiyan]

I think it must be either very different in the UK, or my experience is far outside the norm. Both are possible.

It is different in the UK, we don't know how lucky we have it compared to other countries in this regard

 

[Westbahnhof]

I think it must be either very different in the UK, or my experience is far outside the norm. Both are possible.

This is not quite the same, and only in theory I guess, but it's relevant enough in my eyes, and if not, at least interesting and horrific:
There are states where you technically can't hold public office if you're an atheist.

 

[Zakalwe]

This is not quite the same, and only in theory I guess, but it's relevant enough in my eyes, and if not, at least interesting and horrific:
There are states where you technically can't hold public office if you're an atheist.

Oh, I know of the extremes (I could read more), I was replying to someone suggesting every day life feels like oppression in what I assume is a western country (I know they weren't being quite this dramatic). It's something I've never considered before.

 

[BajiBoxer]

I think it must be either very different in the UK, or my experience is far outside the norm. Both are possible.

I see. Yes, the U.K. is very different. I think it's been shown that Britain is among the least religious nations on the planet. You're basically living in an outlier as far as this stuff is concerned.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Oh, I know of the extremes (I could read more), I was replying to someone suggesting every day life feels like oppression in what I assume is a western country (I know they weren't being quite this dramatic). It's something I've never considered before.

I'm certain that's the case in the "right" communities. I've seen people lose their families overnight because their atheism came to light.
Disclaimer: I've been in contact with a person while this happened. I haven't literally seen it. I doubt it happens in Austria.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

I think it must be either very different in the UK, or my experience is far outside the norm. Both are possible.

Ah, being from the UK is what that is. Come spend a week in a small town of Alabama and tell people you're atheist. Then look at the disgust on their faces as you say it.

 

[Zakalwe]

Well, thanks for the perspective. I'm glad I'm not as blind to that any more.

 

[Artdayne]

Our prevailing moral code may make sense now, but I wonder how many people before its adoption thought it did. We have the benefit of living after its adoption.

Again, just look at secluded tribes to this day. I read about a tribe in Africa that if a member of it died, a member of another tribe was executed in response. That was their code.

Altruism is a human construct. We may gain satisfaction from helping others... so we are getting something in return that has personal value.

Morality is subjective, it doesn't matter two shits to the rest of the universe, we are nothing. While morality is subjective, that does not mean it's not very important in order for organized societies to survive.

Firstly I would say morality is part of our evolution. As a communal species we rely on the support of a group to survive, we never would have made it against all the perils of the world without other people. In order to have order in a group, you must have a moral structure otherwise it is chaos. I think our capacity to feel empathy for other people is part of that evolved morality.

Religion was the only game in town in many different cultures spanning thousands of years so it's clear that a lot of our morality is wrapped up in religion but we can look back at some of these religious texts now and see some very plainly immoral things that are more advanced morality can easily spot today. In the end, religion is clearly not necessary for morality.

 

[SkeptiMism]

Do a lot of atheists compare their plight to gay peoples? Just curious.

No. Lol. In my country of origin atheists are the majority. When I'm in America it never even occurred to me that I have to defend atheism. Even that sounds dumb. I never considered that my disbelief in God is something I would even have to bring up or defend. I never lived in the Bible belt though and America is massive so different tales in different parts. Like many people who I associate with may be religious or somewhat religious in the States (many just in tradition but are completely passive), but it never once caused an issue if a person was of X religion or was not religious.

And if it was a problem I'd just keep it on the down low and laugh in private how people in my community were so heavily against a non-believer. Never mind the Malaysia thread. That in no way is part of my reality in any country I have lived in. Thus no, being an atheist is not the equivalent of being a sexual minority in the places where I have lived and nobody I know would even think that.
Obviously religion or the lack of religion is perceived differently in different parts of the world. This post would be endless if I was supposed to explain how atheists are treated in all 300 and some countries on this planet and all the intricacies on how much or little it would impact them.

Though it is pathetic that being an Atheist is a death sentence in American politics. Like, what? Straight up nuts.

To be clear, the person was making an analogy. Analogy isn't saying the two things are equivalent. It's about some similarity or similarities between the subjects. That's an important difference that a lot of people often seem to miss.

Making analogies between being gay and being atheist seems wholly appropriate at least in some places in the US. PillarEN your experience in the US seems fine but that's not the reality to a lot of people living in the US. The troubles aren't limited just to the politics. You don't have to look for long to find stories of obvious discrimination towards atheists and stories such as being kicked out of home.

Also it's worth pointing out that the person making the analogy was gay himself. Not that a minority person can't be wrong of course, but there's often this image that when someone makes some "outrageous" comparison, clearly they must be a straight white privileged man whose problems are absolutely in no way similar to the thing they compared the thing to.

 

[SMattera]

Anywho, you're more than welcome to be utterly disgusted by my comment, but it's a little insulting to compare being annoyed by annoying atheists to homophobia.

It's not really. What you're advocating is a soft form of bigotry. Really analogous to someone saying they support gay rights, but find pride parades obnoxious and annoying. Or they support civil rights, but think the slogan should be all lives matter.

I'm not trying to play the oppression Olympics here, or say one group has it worse than another, but at least when it comes to things like bias, many people -- particularly in the US -- hold much worse views of atheists than they do gay people. This is objectively true on several measures. For example, the Gallup poll I linked to showed that there are almost twice as many Americans (40%) that are unwilling to vote for an open atheist as there are those who are unwilling to vote for an openly gay politician (24%).

Of course, it's far easier to hide your atheism than it is to hide your homosexuality or skin color. You just don't talk about it and avoid participating in religious rituals. That's one option other minority groups don't have. But there are those of us who don't think we ought to hide who we are or lie about our beliefs to fit in.

 

[The Wraith]

I'm a lapsed Catholic who walks the line between agnostocism/atheism. I was forced to take religion classes from my mother and I fought her tooth and nail about it. As soon as I was a confirmed Catholic I renounced it and stopped attending church much to the dismay of my mother and grandmother. I don't even ask anyone what they believe in anymore to be honest. As long as you aren't a fucking jackass do whatever the hell you feel like.

 

[Monocle]

To be clear, the person was making an analogy. Analogy isn't saying the two things are equivalent. It's about some similarity or similarities between the subjects. That's an important difference that a lot of people often seem to miss.

I need to start prefacing all of my posts that use analogies with a similar explanation, because way too often I find myself fending off responses to equivalencies I never made.

Making analogies between being gay and being atheist seems wholly appropriate at least in some places in the US. PillarEN your experience in the US seems fine but that's not the reality to a lot of people living in the US. The troubles aren't limited just to the politics. You don't have to look for long to find stories of obvious discrimination towards atheists and stories such as being kicked out of home.

Also it's worth pointing out that the person making the analogy was gay himself. Not that a minority person can't be wrong of course, but there's often this image that when someone makes some "outrageous" comparison, clearly they must be a straight white privileged man whose problems are absolutely in no way similar to the thing they compared the thing to.

Yep. As a gay atheist in the US, I have to come out twice to anyone I grow close to. It's hard to describe the immense relief of meeting someone who tactfully indicates that neither of those things is a problem for them. I've only ever encountered that in extremely liberal cities.

People who can take acceptance of their sexuality and religious views for granted are far luckier than they probably realize.

And really, acceptance is what it all comes down to. Or the bare and mildly insulting minimum, tolerance. People just want to live their lives unbothered. I want to go about my life without worrying about some psychotic jerkoff mugging me in the street for holding hands with another guy, or my coworkers thinking I'm some sort of creep for being neither straight nor religious, or having to swallow my opinions while Trump loving morons prattle a mile a minute so I don't get piled on by people who take any contradicting statement as a malicious personal attack. But I can't, because of homophobes and religious people, which are too often one and the same.

 

[Ishan]

Im agnostic and im kinda immoral i guess on some things. very moral on others. i guess if i was super religious i would be super moral on all things and live by very strict rules... so i guess this doesnt bug me.

 

[Viewt]

It's not really. What you're advocating is a soft form of bigotry. Really analogous to someone saying they support gay rights, but find pride parades obnoxious and annoying. Or they support civil rights, but think the slogan should be all lives matter.

I'm not trying to play the oppression Olympics here, or say one group has it worse than another, but at least when it comes to things like bias, many people -- particularly in the US -- hold much worse views of atheists than they do gay people. This is objectively true on several measures. For example, the Gallup poll I linked to showed that there are almost twice as many Americans (40%) that are unwilling to vote for an open atheist as there are those who are unwilling to vote for an openly gay politician (24%).

Of course, it's far easier to hide your atheism than it is to hide your homosexuality or skin color. You just don't talk about it and avoid participating in religious rituals. That's one option other minority groups don't have. But there are those of us who don't think we ought to hide who we are or lie about our beliefs to fit in.

These two comments here are really the core of what I think your misunderstanding is.

For the first comment, what am I advocating for other than stating my own annoyance with other atheists who cannot hold a conversation about any other topic? I think you might be projecting an opinion onto me that I don't have. I don't care about people who mention their atheism, or have discussions about it. I'm just annoyed by people who can only have discussions about it. That's why I said it'd be the same for any other topic - the atheism isn't what's annoying. It's the one-dimensional aspect of their personality. It just so happens that I've met a lot of atheists who suffer from this. That's the extent of the comment.

As for the second comment, again, I'm not advocating hiding or lying. I'll just echo my previous comment - if you are not a one-dimensional person, and if the atheists you're purporting to speak for are not one-dimensional people, then you and they are not the people I'm talking about.

 

[SMattera]

For the first comment, what am I advocating for other than stating my own annoyance with other atheists who cannot hold a conversation about any other topic? I think you might be projecting an opinion onto me that I don't have. I don't care about people who mention their atheism, or have discussions about it. I'm just annoyed by people who can only have discussions about it. That's why I said it'd be the same for any other topic - the atheism isn't what's annoying. It's the one-dimensional aspect of their personality. It just so happens that I've met a lot of atheists who suffer from this. That's the extent of the comment.

These people don't actually exist, though. No one literally has conversations about atheism and nothing else. And if they do, it's likely that they suffer from some sort of neurological or psychological issues, perhaps Aspergers or something similar.

So what you're essentially saying is that you don't like people talking about atheism "too much".

 

[Neece]

Do a lot of atheists compare their plight to gay peoples? Just curious.

I've listened to quite a few religious to atheist testimonies, and a lot of atheists use the term "coming out" when talking about telling their deeply religious family that they no longer believe.

And on that same subject, I've listened to lots of stories from LGBT atheist that said their family was more upset about them coming out as atheist than they were for them coming out as gay. Obviously not all share that experience, but I would say in the U.S., particularly deeply religious areas, there are "a lot" of atheist, some of them LGBT themselves, that compare their plight with gay people.

I'm black and I consider myself "in the closet" in terms of my atheism. My deeply religious family doesn't know, and I'm pretty terrified of telling them. Blackness is almost synonymous with God to them, so saying I no longer believe in God would almost be like betraying my race, or buying into the "white" lies, or betraying Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights leaders (never-mind the non-believing civil rights leaders). And then there is the fact that my parents would feel as if they did something wrong and blame themselves. So I just keep it to myself and hold my tongue at family gatherings that almost always invoke God beyond prayer meals. It does feel like being "in the closet."

But I do understand I'm co-opting terminology.