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[egoextrico]

There is no inherent value to life. Only life forms can value life. Naturally, life forms tend to value their own life over other lives. But we are also capable of valuing whatever the fuck we want. You value anything that breathes. That is your choice. Not necessarily rational. would you value Hitler when you're being marched into an oven? Sometimes it is kill or be killed. The situation has played out countlessly throughout history. It will continue to happen. I value innocent people over murderous scumbags. It is a lot more sensical than the other way around. And in this specific situation, it could've only played out one of two ways. Either we read this story or we read about a butchered/raped/beat up/murdered woman and baby. Thankfully the happier story happened.

 

[Feature]

Not to mention the baby was probably making sounds or atleast the mother was. So he most likely knew there was someone in there (hence him storming in with a knife). Or ofcourse he thought there must have been a vault in there because the room was blocked by a sofa...

and yes, I celebrate the death of rapists/murderers/child molesters and other scumbags. Why wouldn't I? Afterall, the world is a better place without them.

 

[Interfectum]

I have a feeling a lot of gaffers are here are just trolling for attention. The rapist defense force is a bit too much.

 

[Satyamdas]

Whether the world is a better place or not due to him existing or not is meaningless when you take into account why he was who he was. The biggest douche bag in the world has origins. We are what we eat, basically. Some fun research on these points are epigenetics (along with perhaps the works of James Gilligan since it's relevant here), always some good reads to be found there.

You have it backwards. Who he was is meaningless when you take into account his actions that led to him not existing any more. The fact is that this guy was about to rape/kill/torture a woman and her baby. So why should I give a flying fuck about what happened to him 3, 5, 10, 15 years ago? It doesn't fucking matter. To point to "origins" is meaningless because what does it change? He didn't get the Playstation game he wanted for Christmas one year? Got beat up by bullies? Molested by his uncle? Who gives a shit about his origins? It isn't something anyone can fix, so what is the use in pointing to it?

Anyway, sorry to offend you two, i'll just archive this thread, throw it on a USB, put in a time capsule and let are ancestors judge a thousand years from now.

Hey, I'm the one celebrating this douchebag being dead. I think I get to do the offending in this thread.

 

[UrbanRats]

You have it backwards. Who he was is meaningless when you take into account his actions that led to him not existing any more. The fact is that this guy was about to rape/kill/torture a woman and her baby. So why should I give a flying fuck about what happened to him 3, 5, 10, 15 years ago? It doesn't fucking matter. To point to "origins" is meaningless because what does it change? He didn't get the Playstation game he wanted for Christmas one year? Got beat up by bullies? Molested by his uncle? Who gives a shit about his origins? It isn't something anyone can fix, so what is the use in pointing to it?

Basically, the level of trauma in his past, get to dictate the level of celebration you can have.
That's how i read it, anyhow.

I think you can't seriously defend the guy, because it's really a one-way story, BUT i gotta say, whatever the argument, i always find the "lol XXXdefence force, smh" comments annoying.
However stupid and absurd a position might be, if you've got something to say, say it, or get out-- throwing a one line "lolololol, you guy so crazy" is just gonna rise the level of frustration, and it's not gonna enrich anybody.
Unless you're willingly trolling/joking, and that's another story.

Spoiler

Reason why i usually love your posts Satyamdas, whataver the positions, they're generally well argued and in depth.

 

[noah111]

Basically, the level of trauma in his past, get to dictate the level of celebration you can have.
That's how i read it, anyhow.

Nice.

 

[Satyamdas]

Basically, the level of trauma in his past, get to dictate the level of celebration you can have.
That's how i read it, anyhow.

Yeah that seems to be the case. It's too bad that there are so many people who have terrible traumatic pasts yet who never lash out at innocent people or do sadistic, violent things. Because that means that even if he did have a shitty childhood, I still am justified in being happy he got wasted. It's a win-win, baby!

 

[UrbanRats]

Nice.

No, but seriously, although i agree with Satyamdas (i mean, i'm not "happy", i just don't give a damn), i also understand your feeling, i guess.
I think the situation is sad, as it involves sad things, but at the same time, i don't realistically see another outcome, from this situation, that could've gone in a better way.
Yeah, it would've been cool if a magic fairy descended in the bedroom and turned the guy into a good fellow, but realistically someone willing to go to these leghts, to kill another person, is probably beyond saving.

Luckily, it is not for me to judge this, so i can sleep better at night.

 

[The Technomancer]

Why? Who the fuck cares about a violent criminal...oh wait that's right you do. I don't. Not a fucking ounce of sympathy for that bastard. I love it when violent criminals die violently.

Yes, its so easy to draw that line. "Violent criminal" is an intrinsic descriptor that there's no chance will ever apply to you or anyone you love. The world is filled with good people and bad people, and you're one of the good people.

In this case the dude sounds pretty damn scummy, and you don't find me shedding a tear for him. But saying that all violent criminals are evil is, to me, like saying that all suicide is selfish. I think sometimes people are driven to do desperate things by desperate circumstances.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Yes, its so easy to draw that line. "Violent criminal" is an intrinsic descriptor that there's no chance will ever apply to you or anyone you love. The world is filled with good people and bad people, and you're one of the good people.

If any of my loved ones touch the hilt of a knife, or the handle of a gun with the intent to harm another innocent person, either in a fit of anger, or with the intent to rob, then they deserve whatever comes their way. I am good enough not to inflict physical harm on other innocent people.

 

[The Technomancer]

If any of my loved ones touch the hilt of a knife, or the handle of a gun with the intent to harm another innocent person, either in a fit of anger, or with the intent to rob, then they deserve whatever comes their way. I am good enough not to inflict physical harm on other innocent people.

And if your brother goes to prison for knifing someone, or gets the death penalty, will you be waving a pennant at his hearing? Leading the cheer squad at his funeral?

 

[Vagabundo]

It is about respect here. It doesn't matter if you think this guy the worst thing in the universe. Celebrating his death reflects badly on you. Celebrate that the girl and her baby are unharmed - at least physically.

We'd all be in a better place if we stopped celerating the death of others. Sometimes it is necessary, sometimes it happens, but it should be something that you are least neutral about. For your own sake.

If any of my loved ones touch the hilt of a knife, or the handle of a gun with the intent to harm another innocent person, either in a fit of anger, or with the intent to rob, then they deserve whatever comes their way. I am good enough not to inflict physical harm on other innocent people.

I hope those words don't come back to haunt you someday.

 

[Log4Girlz]

And if your brother goes to prison for knifing someone, or gets the death penalty, will you be waving a pennant at his hearing? Leading the cheer squad at his funeral?

One of my brothers has pointed a goddamn loaded gun to my face while drunk and asked me if I thought it was loaded. He has several arrests and was a violent youth.

If he broke into someone's home while armed and got shot in the chest, I would believe his death was justified. If he killed someone and got the death penalty, I would believe his death was justified. If he stabbed a girl a few times, and she survived, and her family lynched him, I would believe his death was justified. If he killed my mother or sister, I would have fucking killed him myself.

 

[The Technomancer]

One of my brothers has pointed a goddamn loaded gun to my face while drunk and asked me if I thought it was loaded. He has several arrests and was a violent youth.

If he broke into someone's home while armed and got shot in the chest, I would believe his death was justified. If he killed someone and got the death penalty, I would believe his death was justified. If he stabbed a girl a few times, and she survived, and her family lynched him, I would believe his death was justified. If he killed my mother or sister, I would have fucking killed him myself.

Would you have killed him only during in the moment self-defense? If he killed your mother or sister would you go after him?

 

[Log4Girlz]

Would you have killed him only during in the moment self-defense? If he killed your mother or sister would you go after him?

It is difficult to say. I want to say I would go after him, and if I got killed in the process, then it was something I invited on myself. Don't start shit if you don't want shit.

 

[mbmonk]

Yes, its so easy to draw that line. "Violent criminal" is an intrinsic descriptor that there's no chance will ever apply to you or anyone you love. The world is filled with good people and bad people, and you're one of the good people.

In this case the dude sounds pretty damn scummy, and you don't find me shedding a tear for him. But saying that all violent criminals are evil is, to me, like saying that all suicide is selfish. I think sometimes people are driven to do desperate things by desperate circumstances.

It completely depends on the scenario/circumstances but normally people are still given a choice. And when they choose the 'violent crime' option instead of the non violent option then they still have some responsibility.

It's hard to imagine that rape, armed robbery, murder, etc. were the only options given to the person in question. Again though it scenario dependent.

Would you have killed him only during in the moment self-defense? If he killed your mother or sister would you go after him?

If someone raped my wife or daughter.. I think I would go after him.

 

[noah111]

One of my brothers has pointed a goddamn loaded gun to my face while drunk and asked me if I thought it was loaded. He has several arrests and was a violent youth.

Well that explains a bit.

It is about respect here. It doesn't matter if you think this guy the worst thing in the universe. Celebrating his death reflects badly on you. Celebrate that the girl and her baby are unharmed - at least physically.

We'd all be in a better place if we stopped celerating the death of others. Sometimes it is necessary, sometimes it happens, but it should be something that you are least neutral about. For your own sake.

This was basically my point earlier, well said.

If someone raped my wife or daughter.. I think I would go after him.

And if he was in prison for life or had died (by succeed or police intervention), how would you react/what would you do? I find it hard to believe vengeance is as satisfying as we'd want it to be.

 

[The Technomancer]

If someone raped my wife or daughter.. I think I would go after him.

It is difficult to say. I want to say I would go after him, and if I got killed in the process, then it was something I invited on myself. Don't start shit if you don't want shit.

But now that means that violent crime becomes "justifiable" in certain cases, like revenge for the death of a loved one. Unless you think that as soon as you decide to go after them you become a person that everyone else should revile.

 

[jmdajr]

Too bad that even had to happen, but no sympathy from me. Sure, I suppose I can agree that celebrating is not right, but the Mom didn't do anything wrong. No one should have to go through that in the first place. I don't own a gun and hope I never get in a situation where I would have to use one.

 

[bbagwell]

I'm sad for the woman's loss of her husband and the baby's loss of a father. I'm sorry this woman was being preyed upon by criminals with the intent to injure or kill. I'm sorry for the pain caused (by the criminal) to the criminal's family.

I'm happy he got what he deserved.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm sad for the woman's loss of her husband and the baby's loss of a father. I'm sorry this woman was being preyed upon by criminals with the intent to injure or kill. I'm sorry for the pain caused (by the criminal) to the criminal's family.

I'm happy he got what he deserved.

Pretty much. Given the circumstances I see how the dude had to die, but that doesn't make the whole mess not rotten.

 

[mbmonk]

And if he was in prison for life or had died (by succeed or police intervention), how would you react/what would you do? I find it hard to believe vengeance is as satisfying as we'd want it to be.

I agree. I am almost sure I would regret it soon after the act. But the very thought of someone doing that to a loved one deeply saddens my soul. I could only imagine the anger that would rise out of that sadness. Assuming my loved one was innocent in the scenario.

But now that means that violent crime becomes "justifiable" in certain cases, like revenge for the death of a loved one. Unless you think that as soon as you decide to go after them you become a person that everyone else should revile.

Yea. I did say it was situational. Although it is hard to imagine a scenario where rape is justified ( separate point ).

 

[Log4Girlz]

But now that means that violent crime becomes "justifiable" in certain cases, like revenge for the death of a loved one. Unless you think that as soon as you decide to go after them you become a person that everyone else should revile.

If I chose to go after him, I would not expect anyone's mercy, and if I die, in an unsuccessful effort to kill him, then I got what was coming to me, I chose to go after him. Having said that, as I said before but I will clarify further. I hate those who prey on the innocent. Violent criminals who go after innocent people.

If any of my loved ones touch the hilt of a knife, or the handle of a gun with the intent to harm another innocent person, either in a fit of anger, or with the intent to rob, then they deserve whatever comes their way. I am good enough not to inflict physical harm on other innocent people.

My mother was abused severely her entire childhood. She never turned to violent crime. The moment she decides to pick up a knife or gun to hurt an innocent person, then she deserves a bullet in the head. I do not give a fuck about what may have happened in your childhood, turn to violent crime and act on your violent impulses, and you've lost any humanity in my eyes and you need to be put down like a dog.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yea. I did say it was situational. Although it is hard to imagine a scenario where rape is justified ( separate point ).

But the criminal system in its self says punishment/vengence is justified. The death penalty, locking someone up for life ( I could only imagine what someone would be subjected to over 20+ years in prison ) all are forms of punishment that are 'justified'.

But now the entire argument changes if violent crime does become situationally acceptable. How would this entire dialogue change if it hypothetically turns out that she had murdered his wife?

Also, just because the criminal justice system things that punishment and vengeance as they're currently defined are acceptable doesn't mean I like it. I think our current criminal justice system is one of the most laughably ineffective and wasteful systems ever devised, and I think a large part of that is the attitude of "lock em up/kill em, its what they deserve"

 

[sixteen-bit]

Crook got what he deserved.

 

[bloodydrake]

He had it coming, obviously, but the tone toward it is somewhat mental.


Because you're ignorant, is why. No on is saying let's love the man and bake him cookies and dance at his funeral, but life is life regardless.

He wasn't born an ass hole, he became on, and therein lies to fact that life itself is sacred regardless of the path the person took through whatever influences along the way.

the majority of the world celebrates the death of violent murderers all the time..
Your judgement of the peoples mental state of those that hate those killers makes you seem like an extremely naive youth, or an idealistic pacifist..

 

[mbmonk]

But now the entire argument changes if violent crime does become situationally acceptable. How would this entire dialogue change if it hypothetically turns out that she had murdered his wife?

I think the key phrase that you are disregarding is innocent. If you commit a violent crime against an innocent person of your own voltion then it becomes much harder to defend that crime.

I agree it gets much cloudier when it's a crime of retribution. But even in those cases the person has a non-violence option available to them.

I am not sure what you are arguing here. I am agreeing with you, yet you seem to be trying to convince me that 100% of violent crimes aren't committed by evil people. I point I have agreed with from the start. My point hinged on the innocence aspect.

 

[Log4Girlz]

But now the entire argument changes if violent crime does become situationally acceptable. How would this entire dialogue change if it hypothetically turns out that she had murdered his wife?

Also, just because the criminal justice system things that punishment and vengeance as they're currently defined are acceptable doesn't mean I like it. I think our current criminal justice system is one of the most laughably ineffective and wasteful systems ever devised, and I think a large part of that is the attitude of "lock em up/kill em, its what they deserve"

If I went after my brother I wouldn't expect sympathy if I failed. If she killed his wife, and he failed, he won't get sympathy from me. All indications were that he was hell bent on harming this woman and potentially her child. From what I can gather from the video, he deserved death. If it turned out she was a serial killer and had killed loads of people, which is not suggested by the video at all, then I would change my mind. Whoever wishes to prey on the innocent is the one who deserves to die. It can be difficult to determine that in many cases, but in this case, it appears clear it was the man who broke into her house.

Edit: Changed some wording.

 

[BankaiZaraki]

I'd do the same thing that woman did to protect my family.

 

[noah111]

the majority of the world celebrates the death of violent murderers all the time..

The vast majority of the world also believes in religious doctrines, many of which are backward. How is this a supporting fact? Doesn't make it any more valid.

[edit] and sorry if i derailed this thread into hypothetical ahoy, lol these hypotheticals are kind of fun to read now.

 

[Log4Girlz]

The vast majority of the world also believes in religious doctrines, many of which are backward. How is this a supporting fact? Doesn't make it any more valid.

[edit] and sorry if i derailed this thread into hypothetical ahoy, lol these hypotheticals are kind of fun to read now.

So a violent murderer dies. What do we feel, sympathy? Sadness? Are you sad that Kim Jong Il passed? Do you sympathize with him? Do you wish he were alive and said he was sorry for what he did to his fellow North Koreans? I was celebratory.

 

[DGRE]

The vast majority of the world also believes in religious doctrines, many of which are backward. How is this a supporting fact? Doesn't make it any more valid.

[edit] and sorry if i derailed this thread into hypothetical ahoy, lol these hypotheticals are kind of fun to read now.

Yes, your posts are chock full of hypothetical, all of which are pretty weak strawmen set up in order to detract from the issue at hand.

You are making a million assumptions about this man's past; none of which are based in reality.

 

[AngryMoth]

I think I would be ok with this if she had given him a verbal warning or something but they make it sound like she killed him the moment he set through the door which is pretty messed up.

 

[noah111]

So a violent murderer dies. What do we feel, sympathy? Sadness? Are you sad that Kim Jong Il passed? Do you sympathize with him? Do you wish he were alive and said he was sorry for what he did to his fellow North Koreans? I was celebratory.

That's different, he died. He wasn't killed, murdered, tortured etc etc. Celebrating those kinds of deaths just seems awfully backwards to me.

An ass hole who simply died, even I wouldn't celebrate, but it's not like I would be sad for a second regardless.

His death could bring good to a many people (even thought it probably won't with his son), and that would be my point of celebration more-so than his death.

 

[Orayn]

I think I would be ok with this if she had given him a verbal warning or something but they make it sound like she killed him the moment he set through the door which is pretty messed up.

She had a baby and the guy charged at her with a knife. I don't say this often, but that really is a situation where you should shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I think I would be ok with this if she had given him a verbal warning or something but they make it sound like she killed him the moment he set through the door which is pretty messed up.

Considering he had to break down a barricaded door, I think he got all the warning he deserved, both legally and ethically.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I think I would be ok with this if she had given him a verbal warning or something but they make it sound like she killed him the moment he set through the door which is pretty messed up.

No. Home invasion is messed up.

 

[Log4Girlz]

That's different, he died. He wasn't killed, murdered, tortured etc etc. Celebrating those kinds of deaths just seems awfully backwards to me.

An ass hole who simply died, even I wouldn't celebrate, but it's not like I would be sad for a second regardless.

His death could bring good to a many people (even thought it probably won't with his son), and that would be my point of celebration more-so than his death.

And the death of this clearly violent criminal by the young mother may have brought great good to many hypothetical people who would have otherwise been victims as well. Which to me, is indistinguishable from celebrating the death itself.

 

[jmdajr]

I'd do the same thing that woman did to protect my family.

Yeah I don't consider myself a violent individual at all, but I think when your family is in danger a sort of animal instinct can take over.

 

[AngryMoth]

She had a baby and the guy charged at her with a knife. I don't say this often, but that really is a situation where you should shoot first and ask questions later.

Only watched the video, didn't read the part about him actually charging at her, in which case she did the right thing.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I think I would be ok with this if she had given him a verbal warning or something but they make it sound like she killed him the moment he set through the door which is pretty messed up.

Its like she trapped him with her barricade. "If I set up this barricade between him and my baby, there's no doubt he'll attempt to smash his way through and then I get to put some lead into him!".

Holy shit. It was premeditated murder on her part.

 

[noah111]

Yes, your posts are chock full of hypothetical, all of which are pretty weak strawmen set up in order to detract from the issue at hand.

You are making a million assumptions about this man's past; none of which are based in reality.

You misinterpret my posts then. I didn't assert anything of his past, it was a hypothetical of how people become how they are. He could have had a rich family as a child for all we know.

My point was people kind of assume he's (or criminals in general) are genetically evil or something, when in reality they have been driven on a course to commit these certain acts. I've provided some reading material to better explain what I am poorly trying to describe/relate earlier.

And the death of this clearly violent criminal by the young mother may have brought great good to many hypothetical people who would have otherwise been victims as well. Which to me, is indistinguishable from celebrating the death itself.

It's distinguishable to me. If I have to kill 500 thousand random people in jails to save the 7billion human population on earth, should we celebrate their deaths since good came out of it?

I don't know, the celebration of someone dying, even if he is a brutal ass hole, is just somewhat barbaric in my opinion, that we are so emotionally attached that we can't view him as a biblically and mentally fucked up human being who committed atrocious acts, but rather 'let's party since I blew his brains out'.

Just a personal anecdote I suppose, not saying everyone has to look at things in such a way, jut my opinion...

 

[neoemonk]

"Yes they deserved to die, and I hope they burn in Hell!" - Carl Lee Hailey

 

[Log4Girlz]

You misinterpret my posts then. I didn't assert anything of his past, it was a hypothetical of how people become how they are. He could have had a rich family as a child for all we know.

My point was people kind of assume he's (or criminals in general) are genetically evil or something, when in reality they have been driven on a course to commit these certain acts. I've provided some reading material to better explain what I am poorly trying to describe/relate earlier.


It's distinguishable to me. If I have to kill 500 thousand random people in jails to save the 7billion human population on earth, should we celebrate their deaths since good came out of it?

I don't know, the celebration of someone dying, even if he is a brutal ass hole, is just somewhat barbaric in my opinion, that we are so emotionally attached that we can't view him as a biblically and mentally fucked up human being who committed atrocious acts, but rather 'let's party since I blew his brains out'.

Just a personal anecdote I suppose, not saying everyone has to look at things in such a way, jut my opinion...

I do not believe life is so precious that every person must be seen in some sympathetic light. Call it barbarism if you wish, I see no problem in the celebration of the death of a brutal criminal.

 

[ShinAmano]

It's distinguishable to me. If I have to kill 500 thousand random people in jails to save the 7billion human population on earth, should we celebrate their deaths since good came out of it?

I don't know, the celebration of someone dying, even if he is a brutal ass hole, is just somewhat barbaric in my opinion, that we are so emotionally attached that we can't view him as a biblically and mentally fucked up human being who committed atrocious acts, but rather 'let's party since I blew his brains out'.

Just a personal anecdote I suppose, not saying everyone has to look at things in such a way, jut my opinion...

If you saved humanity then yeah I think people would celebrate. It seems you are thinking the death is celebrated...but in fact in both your hypothetical and the actual news story the life saved is what is celebrated.

IMO she was justified and both her life and the life of her baby were saved by her actions...and it only cost the life of a scumbag. The world wins in this situation.

As for how the scumbag became a scumbag has no relevance in this topic.

 

[WarMacheen]

You consciously make the decision to enter someone's home, knowing full well you don't belong there. You get shot, beaten, stabbed, etc. It's your own goddamned fault.

There are no good intentions associated with breaking in to another person's home.

When's the last time you read a story of someone breaking in to a home to leave money or just to say hi?

People that defend the intruder are delusional.

 

[andycapps]

Never ceases to amaze me at the defense forces that come out for the dregs of society.

 

[desertdroog]

Maybe the home invaders should have alerted the local authorities that they intended to break and enter the domicile of a young, widowed mother while armed. Since she was on 911 for over 20 minutes and no cops could get to the scene in a timely manner to intervene. In case things went badly for them in their caper.

Think of it as a saftey net for those criminals who are not as professional as other career criminals. :/

Spoiler

sarcasm

 

[hokahey]

Is there anyone in this thread discussing the value of all life and suggesting maybe the mother could have handled it differently over the age of 25? If so I'd be shocked. These people sound like young idealist with no real world understanding. Or they're imbeciles.

 

[noah111]

If you saved humanity then yeah I think people would celebrate. It seems you are thinking the death is celebrated...but in fact in both your hypothetical and the actual news story the life saved is what is celebrated.

IMO she was justified and both her life and the life of her baby were saved by her actions...and it only cost the life of a scumbag. The world wins in this situation.

As for how the scumbag became a scumbag has no relevance in this topic.

Actually, many are posting in here celebrating the scumbags death, which has been discussed to hell by now.

And for your last sentence, if this kind of behavior one day in the future is seen for what it really is, an imbalance, a biologically unsound mind, then they would be treated as mental patients for this abnormality.

That's a long ways off though, I think.

Also, everyone keeps bringing up defending the intruder, I wasn't here in the earlier pages but was there anyone actually defending the actions of this guy or saying the woman was in the wrong?