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[SimpleDesign]

Did they say how? I can't see how that can be put into practice. Riots have achieved nothing. Petitions are a joke. Who listens? If for once we ignore them and not give them a reaction, their fun will have lost it's appeal and no one likes doing anything that isn't fun. It's a reaction they want, and we are giving it to them. Let's just curse them and pray to Allah to either guide them or destroy them.

:lol

 

[Steppenwolf]

This is sickening me. It's one thing to hear about crazy muslim lunatics on the news but when it happens close to places and people one knows it ads another dimension. Something must be done.

 

[HK-47]

The fact that you compared fucking someone's wife to depicting a mythical dude in any manner what so ever proves how crazy this argument even is.

Which is to say almost crazier than the fundamentalists themselves.

Also, what if I treated EVERYONE who even acknowledged my wife was alive, be it toll booth operator, telemarketer, coworkers, the same way I treated a dude who fucked her.

He wasnt mythical. Just saying.

 

[Mgoblue201]

I can see where people on both sides of this debate are coming from. On one hand I think people definitely need to stand up for free speech rights whenever and however they are threatened. At the same time though there is a huge difference between protesting an assault on free speech and being an asshole just for the sake of mocking people and pissing them off.

In many cases there really isn't. No one in the history of the world has ever lived by the mantra of respecting everybody's viewpoints. There are all kinds of viewpoints that we find absurd and ridiculous and unconscionable. For many people, that is religion, and it's their (well, mine too) right to believe that believing in religion makes no sense and is worth a good mocking. And part of living in a free society and acting like a grown up is learning to live with that mocking, even if it drives you crazy. Nothing good has ever come from the side of those who want to silence something like that. And many times it is perfectly reasonable to conflate the act of pissing someone off with the exercise of free speech. Flaunting that exercise of speech is a good way of exposing their absurdity. Because if you back down, then the fundamentalists won't just leave you alone. They'll keep coming until they've taken away all your ability to exercise that freedom.

 

[SnakeXs]

He wasnt mythical. Just saying.

*pats you on the head*

How adorable.

 

[Chuckie]

*pats you on the head*

How adorable.

Why? He's right.

You can claim the Quran is full of myths and I would agree, Mohammed himself is not a myth though (even though I don't believe he was a prophet)

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

The majority of posts there are actually very level-headed. I went in expecting far worse, from your post.

It's not their reasoning that irks me - which is why I said I fully understood them, maybe even respect them. It's their wicked wishing of bad health on people that I am disappointed with - really NOT what I expect from ANY religion. I also thought it dwindled on the childish towards the end, basically saying "well fuck you then" followed by 4 amens in response to the event organisers letter.

 

[SimpleDesign]

It's not their reasoning that irks me - which is why I said I fully understood them, maybe even respect them. It's their wicked wishing of bad health on people that I am disappointed with - really NOT what I expect from ANY religion. I also thought it dwindled on the childish towards the end, basically saying "well fuck you then" followed by 4 amens in response to the event organisers letter.

You mean stuff like this?

^^ ditto that....

I remember during the Lebanese Israeli war that SOB tony snow may Allah swt burn him eternally in hell was standing there all pompous telling off this reporter (of Lebanese origin) 'thank you for the hezbullah response' with utmost disdain .. I made du3a from my heart that moment that he tasted their pain and suffering live and die miserably.. and I swear to God it was shortly thereafter that he declared he had metastatic cancer. .. Du3a truly is the weapon of the believer and no veil comes between the oppressed and God (even if the oppressed is a kaffir) so you know what the least you can do is and know that it is pretty powerful.. May Allah swt yai3iz al'Islam wa'yansur almoslmeen .. and Dam* these vile creatures in this life and hereafter

ameen ya rabb

Pretty harsh.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

You mean stuff like this?

Pretty harsh.

Exactly. They could come from any religion for all I care - this person is vile in my book. I mean, you don't fucking leap for joy when someone has cancer

 

[SmokyDave]

^^ ditto that....

I remember during the Lebanese Israeli war that SOB tony snow may Allah swt burn him eternally in hell was standing there all pompous telling off this reporter (of Lebanese origin) 'thank you for the hezbullah response' with utmost disdain .. I made du3a from my heart that moment that he tasted their pain and suffering live and die miserably.. and I swear to God it was shortly thereafter that he declared he had metastatic cancer. .. Du3a truly is the weapon of the believer and no veil comes between the oppressed and God (even if the oppressed is a kaffir) so you know what the least you can do is and know that it is pretty powerful.. May Allah swt yai3iz al'Islam wa'yansur almoslmeen .. and Dam* these vile creatures in this life and hereafter

ameen ya rabb

WTF? Kaffir is a racial slur used by whites against blacks. I believe it was appropriated from the muslims.

I suspect this dopey idiot meant Kafir or Kuffar, a (non-derogatory, honest!) term for non-muslims used by muslims. He better pray Allah doesn't get all pissy about terminology and spelling.

 

[Instigator]

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134296691-draw-muhammed-day.html

Found an Islamic perspective of Draw Muhammed Day. Naturally the majority are against it, which I fully understand - but I was shocked at some of the sickening things being said. Many curses put on people, and in an unrelated event someone prayed that a guy got metastatic cancer. I'm struggling to find 'peace' anywhere that's not been at the tip of a sword.

Interesting many Muslims on that board have upgraded Mohammed to virtual godhood. They just confirm the derogatory 'Mohammedan' term used by right-wingers.

 

[Mako_Drug]

Why? He's right.

You can claim the Quran is full of myths and I would agree, Mohammed himself is not a myth though (even though I don't believe he was a prophet)

No, he's wrong. If a person existed wether it be Mohammed or Jesus their actions described in 'holy' texts such as turning water into wine or flying places on a magical horsey are ficticious and also the basis for their worship.

The very persona of these characters relies on their 'miraculous works' taken as gospel and as such the picture of these possibly historical figures is MYTH.

 

[Chuckie]

WTF? Kaffir is a racial slur used by whites against blacks. I believe it was appropriated from the muslims.

I suspect this dopey idiot meant Kafir or Kuffar, a (non-derogatory, honest!) term for non-muslims used by muslims. He better pray Allah doesn't get all pissy about terminology and spelling.

Yeah the origin of the word is the same. Muslims used to call Africans 'kafir' because they didn't follow islam. The portugese thought they were called kafir because of their ethnicity, not their believes and started using the word for coloured people (in the beginning not yet derogatory)

 

[Dead Man]

No, he's wrong. If a person existed wether it be Mohammed or Jesus their actions described in 'holy' texts such as turning water into wine or flying places on a magical horsey are ficticious and also the basis for their worship.

The very persona of these characters relies on their 'miraculous works' taken as gospel and as such the picture of these possibly historical figures is MYTH.

And yet, those semantics aside, there was a historical Mohammed.

 

[Mako_Drug]

And yet, those semantics aside, there was a historical Mohammed.

No one is worshipping Mohammed the Warlord.

 

[Chuckie]

No, he's wrong. If a person existed wether it be Mohammed or Jesus their actions described in 'holy' texts such as turning water into wine or flying places on a magical horsey are ficticious and also the basis for their worship.

The very persona of these characters relies on their 'miraculous works' taken as gospel and as such the picture of these possibly historical figures is MYTH.

This is the case with Jesus, not with Mohammed. Their are enough non-mythical records of Muhammed. People creating myths around Mohammed does not make Mohammed a myth. You could merely speak of the 'myth' surrounding Mohammed. Lots of crap is written about Ceasar, Cleopatra and Nero that is not factual. That those not make them myths.

 

[Prine]

No, he's wrong. If a person existed wether it be Mohammed or Jesus their actions described in 'holy' texts such as turning water into wine or flying places on a magical horsey are ficticious and also the basis for their worship.

The very persona of these characters relies on their 'miraculous works' taken as gospel and as such the picture of these possibly historical figures is MYTH.

There are letters written to kings from prophet Muhammed pbuh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State

Edit: read what you wrote wrong, i thought you said he didnt exist. Carry on.

 

[Dead Man]

No one is worshipping Mohammed the Warlord.

That does not change the fact that Mohammed the Warlord existed. There was a historical person that is the basis for the myths and legends attributed to the Mohammed of the Koran.

 

[Mako_Drug]

There are letters written to kings from prophet Muhammed pbuh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_letters_to_the_Heads-of-State

That does not change the fact that Mohammed the Warlord existed. There was a historical person that is the basis for the myths and legends attributed to the Mohammed of the Koran.

I didn't say there wasn't a historical Mohammed.

 

[wRATH2x]

I'd argue that muslims wouldn't be as riled up if the drawings weren't so offensive.

Muhammad has been drawn before, back before wahhabism. And honestly those offended would have been the extremists alone. But drawing Muhammad in an evil looking way with a bomb for a turban was really offensive, and you don't draw that not to offend.

Hell he's the reason this whole outcry of drawing muhammad happened. South Park drew him before to little attention, they didn't even show him last time and look what happened.

I've got more to say about this, but I'm going to study now for a test and I'll be back later.

 

[TheHeretic]

If you understand what free speech is you know violent attacks against opinions, even bigoted or prejudiced ones, are never justified.

So to answer a post made on the first page, I wouldn't find it acceptable for a black person to attack a white nationalist for example, under any circumstances other than self defense. If they are eliciting violence let the police deal with it.

Muslims complaining about this don't have any leg to stand on. We can draw their prophets any way we like and say whatever we like about Islam, those are enlightenment values and shouldn't be thrown away out of political correctness.

 

[Chuckie]

No one is worshipping Mohammed the Warlord.

No one is worshipping Mohammed the Prophet either.

 

[SimpleDesign]

No one is worshipping Mohammed the Prophet either.

Uh, what?

 

[SmokyDave]

But drawing Muhammad in an evil looking way with a bomb for a turban was really offensive, and you don't draw that not to offend.

There are a wealth of reasons for drawing Mohammed in this manner whether you're commenting on the man himself or his followers. The reactions of followers only served to reinforce the validity of the cartoon.

Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

See, it's hardly a new thing. People have thought Mo and his peeps are warmongers for eons.

I struggle to sympathise with those offended by the truth.

 

[Mako_Drug]

No one is worshipping Mohammed the Prophet either.

Whilst technically true, when Muslims act in ways described by this article and in many others they may as well do.

 

[HappyBivouac]

Uh, what?

Worshipping him is supposedly a sin in Islam, as he was merely a man. It's supposed to be an insult to Allah. Muslims love and revere him and consider any depiction of him to be insulting, as it couldn't match up to the real thing. Some people even find it so insulting that they feel the need to vocally and/or physically defend his honor. These people are what we call morons.

 

[Chuckie]

Whilst technically true, when Muslims act in ways described by this article and in many others they may as well do.

That's why I used " "

 

[Prine]

I'd argue that muslims wouldn't be as riled up if the drawings weren't so offensive.

Muhammad has been drawn before, back before wahhabism. And honestly those offended would have been the extremists alone. But drawing Muhammad in an evil looking way with a bomb for a turban was really offensive, and you don't draw that not to offend.

Hell he's the reason this whole outcry of drawing muhammad happened. South Park drew him before to little attention, they didn't even show him last time and look what happened.

I've got more to say about this, but I'm going to study now for a test and I'll be back later.

Yeah, i dont understand that too. At least if you need to insult over a billion (you have that right no one say you dont, stop being so insecure) do it at a time where there isnt so much tension. Im sure it'll be handled more rationally than it has so far. The South Park minds have already said no-one cared before.

 

[Dead Man]

I didn't say there wasn't a historical Mohammed.

In response to the discussion about 'at least he wasn't mythical', you said:

No, he's wrong.

The actions are myth, the person was real. Anyway, I can't really be arsed with this.

 

[TheHeretic]

Yeah, i dont understand that too. At least if you need to insult over a billion (you have that right no one say you dont, stop being so insecure) do it at a time where there isnt so much tension. Im sure it'll be handled more rationally than it has so far. The South Park minds have already said no-one cared before.

So its self censorship by guilt then? The people who say we don't are the people who burn down embassies when a cartoonist from a country thats main foreign policy in the middle east was supporting Palestine draws a cartoon.

Lovely threat with "over a billion". It really doesn't matter how many there are, their Governments are universally terrible unless they manage to adopt secular values, which muslim majority countries have enormous problems doing.

 

[neorej]

Yeah, i dont understand that too. At least if you need to insult over a billion (you have that right no one say you dont, stop being so insecure) do it at a time where there isnt so much tension. Im sure it'll be handled more rationally than it has so far. The South Park minds have already said no-one cared before.

Giving in now to a group of vengeful and aggresive idiots will only send the message that you're right, as long as you threaten and kill enough people. So we'll get the "insult" --> threats --> kills --> back down-cycle all over again.

 

[Dawb]

A few people are suggesting these cartoons are overly vulgar in their attempt to offend. Yet mild critiques of Islam such as Theo van Gogh's Submission lead to the same attempts at repressing free speech.

 

[Mako_Drug]

In response to the discussion about 'at least he wasn't mythical', you said:


The actions are myth, the person was real. Anyway, I can't really be arsed with this.

Wether or not you can be arsed, I'm going to make it clear.

The person whom people are fighting about DOESN'T exist.
No one is fighting over historical accuracy.
They are fighting over a fictionalised version of a historical figure, which would fall under the definition of myth. Which is why I said, as you quoted "No, he's wrong."

For reference:
myth

–noun
1.
a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2.
stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3.
any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
4.
an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
5.
an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.
dictionary.com

 

[Lagspike_exe]

This is a disgrace for Sweden. These savages should be either start acting like normal citizens of Sweden or get back from whatever hellish place they came from.

 

[Keylime]

Just to be clear, no one in this thread is saying that the violent threats and actual violence in response to what the dude did is justified, right?

...like no one thinks that part is OK, right?

 

[Prine]

So its self censorship by guilt then? The people who say we don't are the people who burn down embassies when a cartoonist from a country thats main foreign policy in the middle east was supporting Palestine draws a cartoon.

Lovely threat with "over a billion". It really doesn't matter how many there are, their Governments are universally terrible unless they manage to adopt secular values, which muslim majority countries have enormous problems doing.

Giving in now to a group of vengeful and aggresive idiots will only send the message that you're right, as long as you threaten and kill enough people. So we'll get the "insult" --> threats --> kills --> back down-cycle all over again.

Your looking at this too narrowly. The objective is to create debate and exercise freedom. If the climate wasnt so hostile at the moment you would have your debate as it wouldnt be seen as another attack, but treated differently, more rationally. Its not self-censorship, if you intend to publish.

There are violent people on the opposite side that are using much of this misinformation to inflict harm on the people these publications are trying to target. This is a fact.

 

[Flek]

idiots

 

[neorej]

Your looking at this too narrowly. The objective is to create debate and exercise freedom. If the climate wasnt so hostile at the moment you would have your debate as it wouldnt be seen as another attack, but treated differently, more rationally. Its not self-censorship, if you intend to publish at a later date.

There are violent people on the opposite side that are using much of this misinformation to inflict harm on the people these publications are trying to target. This is a fact.

Tell me, how can you debate with someone who's primary and only response to any form of critism towards his religion is anger, hatred and violence? This is not unique to these tense times, this is a situation that existed long before this grown tension. This is a fact.

 

[Osietra]

One could almost be forgiven for thinking that the great war between Christians and muslims predicted by the prophet Picard in First Encounter had actually begun.

 

[Prine]

Tell me, how can you debate with someone who's primary and only response to any form of critism towards his religion is anger, hatred and violence? This is not unique to these tense times, this is a situation that existed long before this grown tension. This is a fact.

Maybe because the voice of reason from members of their own community (Imam, Scholars) would not fall on deaf ears when all these morons think about in is injustice to their people. And the whole eye for an eye mentality that goes with it.

But the people who try to reason might not be as active because tensions pose a genuine threat to them as well.

 

[neorej]

Maybe because the voice of reason from members of their own community (Imam, Scholars) would not fall on deaf ears when all these morons think about in is injustice to their people. And the whole eye for an eye mentality that goes with it.

But the people who try to reason might not be as active because tensions pose a genuine threat to them as well.

I'd hate to burst your bubble, but the sane ones that actually still listen to reason (at least, this is the situation in Holland, and by my understanding most of Europe) and admit to that publicly are immediatly degraded to a rank somewhere between pigs, dogs and rats by the idiots who have a far bigger set of followers than the rational imams.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Just to be clear, no one in this thread is saying that the violent threats and actual violence in response to what the dude did is justified, right?

...like no one thinks that part is OK, right?

 

[SmokyDave]

Maybe because the voice of reason from members of their own community (Imam, Scholars) would not fall on deaf ears when all these morons think about in is injustice to their people. And the whole eye for an eye mentality that goes with it.

But the people who try to reason might not be as active because tensions pose a genuine threat to them as well.

This (extremely quiet) voice of reason has made no difference thus far. It's time for the wider community to set the rules of the game. Rule #1 is we can draw old men if we like.

 

[El_Victor]

I actually was at that lecture – had to wait in a line for 1 hour and 30 minutes to get in, then wait another 30 minutes for Lars to actually show up.

The mood in there was really bad from the beginning, when Lars came in he started to take pictures of the crowd, and some people freaked out. Then he started his lecture, showed some satire movies of Christ, then he started showing the movie of homosexuals (who had the face of Muhammad over their faces) to the song gaybar, and all hell broke loose (as you can see in the video).

The "funny" thing is that there was a girl, who obviously didn't come from the middle-east, who was chanting with the muslims: they attacked her because she didn't have anything to do with them, and they were furious at her for taking their stand (what in the fuck I don't even...).

There was another girl shouting about freedom of speech, but they just booed her.

Then we had this guy, talking about turning the other cheek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewLqjWSVZ8#t=2m00s

It was a pretty... shilling experience.

Outside the hall the people happy about how how they "defeated" Lars - yeah, you really got him there. This was not his intention at all.

When I exited the school, I met a mob who was cheering and protesting, calling me blasphemer etc. - walking home that day, I felt as if I've seen youtube comments live. It was that fucking dumb.

 

[SimpleDesign]

She spit on that guy while hitting him in the head and screaming like a banshee. What a classy bunch of people.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

I actually was at that lecture – had to wait in a line for 1 hour and 30 minutes to get in, then wait another 30 minutes for Lars to actually show up.

The mood in there was really bad from the beginning, when Lars came in he started to take pictures of the crowd, and some people freaked out. Then he started his lecture, showed some satire movies of Christ, then he started showing the movie of homosexuals (who had the face of Muhammad over their faces) to the song gaybar, and all hell broke loose (as you can see in the video).

The "funny" thing is that there was a girl, who obviously didn't come from the middle-east, who was chanting with the muslims: they attacked her because she didn't have anything to do with them, and they were furious at her for taking their stand (what in the fuck I don't even...).

There was another girl shouting about freedom of speech, but they just booed her.

Then we had this guy, talking about turning the other cheek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewLqjWSVZ8#t=2m00s

It was a pretty... shilling experience.

Outside the hall the people happy about how how they "defeated" Lars - yeah, you really got him there. This was not his intention at all.

When I exited the school, I met a mob who was cheering and protesting, calling me blasphemer etc. - walking home that day, I felt as if I've seen youtube comments live. It was that fucking dumb.

Why the hell is the guy in the video just sitting in that chair while that bitch is screaming into his ear and hitting him? I'd slam her head into the ground if I was in his place.

 

[HappyBivouac]

Why the hell is the guy in the video just sitting in that chair while that bitch is screaming into his ear and hitting him? I'd slam her head into the ground if I was in his place.

That's why you're no better. The key is to expose the ridiculousness of people violently protesting. If you respond with violence, you ruin the whole thing. I imagine he's saying stuff along the lines of "hit me again.. I won't hit back." That's a true badass.

 

[Dead Man]

Why the hell is the guy in the video just sitting in that chair while that bitch is screaming into his ear and hitting him? I'd slam her head into the ground if I was in his place.

Now you are thinking like an extremist! Well done!

 

[Lagspike_exe]

That's why you're no better. The key is to expose the ridiculousness of people violently protesting. If you respond with violence, you ruin the whole thing. I imagine he's saying stuff along the lines of "hit me again.. I won't hit back." That's a true badass.

I understand what you're saying and agree with it to some extant, but there's no way I'd let some lunatic bitch touch me, let alone hit me. :lol

Besides, what you're proposing is a way that's best used against civilized people. Savages from the video above show no resemblance to what we refer to as "civilized". Bunch of lunatics protecting their beliefs in a way that's maybe allowed in the place they came from, but certainly not in Western Europe. Don't like the laws in the country you came to in a quest for better life (not to mention taking THEIR money in a form of social aid and what not)? GTFO!

Now you are thinking like an extremist! Well done!

So, defending yourself is now considered extreme? :lol

 

[Prine]

This (extremely quiet) voice of reason has made no difference thus far. It's time for the wider community to set the rules of the game. Rule #1 is we can draw old men if we like.

Please stop talking about this community as if your part of it. There is change happening, and people like Tariq Ramadans think tank has said at grass root level they are making progress. Him along with Hamza Yusef will be at Oxford University giving a speech, you should come to see the change. They will answer some of your questions.

I'll be there (if i can get tickets). Its in 2 weeks i think.

I'd hate to burst your bubble, but the sane ones that actually still listen to reason (at least, this is the situation in Holland, and by my understanding most of Europe) and admit to that publicly are immediatly degraded to a rank somewhere between pigs, dogs and rats by the idiots who have a far bigger set of followers than the rational imams.

Thats horrible, would like to know more about this.