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[Lucky Forward]

A local mosque here got severely vandalized and attacked today.

Sooooo.....where do you live?

 

[Slurpy]

Sooooo.....where do you live?

Canada.

 

[Slurpy]

Wake me up when hordes of Christian extremists are blowing themselves up in the West Bank..Iran...Somalia.

'Hordes'?

Wake me up when Muslim countries aren't being continually invaded, occupied, and threatened by countries with Christian and Jewish leadership, often citing religious divine reason, and based on complete lies. Wake me up when these invasions, and occupations haven't killed hundreds of thousands of muslims in the past few years, and caused these respective countries to become depraved hell-holes, and breeding ground for more hatred. Wake me up when the west bank isn't being occupied and the people aren't being subjugated and killed daily.

And suicide bombings in Iran? When did this happen?

Don't even attempt to present it as a black and white issue. I condemn every single act of terrorism, but to suggest that they occur in a vacuum with no history and no provocation is just idiocy and ignorance. You create and implement policies which make tens of millions of people suffer, you're inevitably going to get those who are depraved and are pushed over the edge to commit these acts. The mentality that you can cure terrorism with bombs is so utterly flawed.

 

[<nu>faust]

'Hordes'?
Wake me up when Muslim countries aren't being continually invaded, occupied, and threatened by countries with Christian and Jewish leadership, often citing religious divine reason, and based on complete lies. Wake me up when these invasions, and occupations haven't killed hundreds of thousands of muslims in the past few years

Reported american deaths since US-led military intervention in Iraq (3/19/03):2,680
Reported civilian deaths resulting from the US-led military intervention in Iraq (8/31/06):47,931
Set cost of Iraqi War the end of fiscal year 2006(September 30, 2006) $318.5 billion

 

[HokieJoe]

Yes the evil Ottoman Empire was forcibly converting it's subjects that must be why the Greeks, Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Ukranians, Romanians, Moldawians, Armenians, Assyrians, Georgians, Shiites are all Sunni Muslim now.

Forcefully recruiting some boys to raise them as Janissaries is hardly enough to come to the conclusion conversion to Islam was by the sword.

Oh and as for the Christian Bedrock, if 2 million Armenians died during WW1 and most Greeks took part in a population exchange with Turkey how many more Christians would you expect to remain?

Armenian's are Sunni Muslim? Please clarify.

 

[Kapsama]

Armenian's are Sunni Muslim? Please clarify.

Are you playing stupid?

 

[whytemyke]

Reported american deaths since US-led military intervention in Iraq (3/19/03):2,680
Reported civilian deaths resulting from the US-led military intervention in Iraq (8/31/06):47,931
Set cost of Iraqi War the end of fiscal year 2006(September 30, 2006) $318.5 billion

that 47k dead civvies is an estimate, and at the low-end of the scale, too. most places have it somewhere around 100k dead civvies in iraq.

i'm so sick of hearing about how muslims are offended by something someone said. seriously, you ****ers... shut up. nobody cares anymore. we'll start respecting your culture when you do something to show that you're respecting ours. when we see imams in madrassahs across the middle east saying that ideological plurality is a viable way of life for people in the world and doesn't deserve the business end of a bomb vest, then we can talk about western cultures being sympathetic to muslims.

i'm sick and tired of people who don't respect me bitching about how we don't respect them.

and everyone do me a favor-- quit lumping palestinians as 'muslim'. Some 40% of them are christian, you self-righteous sonsofbitches.

 

[Lucky Forward]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html

Al Qaeda threat over pope speech

POSTED: 1:42 p.m. EDT, September 18, 2006

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- An al Qaeda-linked extremist group warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that he and the West were "doomed," as protesters raged across the Muslim world to demand more of an apology from the pontiff for his remarks about Islam and violence.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups that includes al Qaeda in Iraq, issued a statement on a Web forum vowing to continue its holy war against the West. The authenticity of the statement could not be independently verified.

The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross" saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."

Head tax?

 

[Eric P]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html



Head tax?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizyah

Head Tax

 

[whytemyke]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html



Head tax?

if I were muslims, I wouldn't be talking about how successful Chechnya is against the west.

and why would you spill the liquor? if I were them, I'd drink the liquor, make head free and ignore the cross. it's gotten me this far in life.

 

[BigBoss]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html

 

[Instigator]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,437587,00.html

"Islam is a Different Culture"

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the Catholic Church's ecumenical representative, discusses the Vatican's relations with Muslims and the furor over the pope's recent remarks.

SPIEGEL: Cardinal, are you surprised by the intense reaction of Muslims worldwide to the pope's speech in Regensburg?

Kasper: Because the Christian faith constitutes a voluntary personal act, the pope has every right to address the justifiable concerns of the Enlightenment: the concept of universal human rights, religious freedom and the distinction between religion and politics. After all, the Catholic Church is a world church and more of a global player today than ever before.

SPIEGEL: Which means that conflicts with other religions are apparently inevitable.

Kasper: The conflict with Islam has, after all, existed throughout European history, which is what the pope was pointing out. The encounter with Islam now seems to be entering a new phase. Many have called it a 'clash of civilizations.' But this phrase must be handled with great care to prevent it from becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. The alternative to conflict is called dialogue. This is the option the churches choose, and it's also what the pope favors. We want a peaceful difference of opinion, which, of course, is based on reciprocity. But one shouldn't harbor any illusions over the difficulties this involves.

SPIEGEL: Why is dialogue with Islam so difficult for the Catholic Church?

Kasper: There is no such thing as one Islam. The Koran is ambiguous and Islam is not a monolithic entity. The distinction between radical Islam and moderate Muslims is important, as are the differences between Sunnis and Shiites, and between militant and mystical Islam. Islam in the Arab world coexists with Indonesian, Pakistani and Turkish Islam. There is limited solidarity, even within the Arab world. Muslims living among us (in Germany) haven't managed to build an organization that represents all Muslims. Such an organization could protect us against irrational fantasies driven by fear, fantasies that completely demonize Islam. But it is difficult, under the current circumstances, to find representative counterparts to talk with.

SPIEGEL: Do you think a dialogue on equal footing is possible?

Kasper: One cannot be naïve when engaging in this dialogue. Islam undoubtedly deserves respect. It has some things in common with Christianity, such as Abraham as a common progenitor, and the belief in only one God. But Islam developed in opposition to orthodox Christianity from the very start, and it considers itself superior to Christianity. So far, it has only been tolerant in places where it is in the minority. Where it is the majority religion, Islam does not recognize religious freedom, at least not as we understand it. Islam is a different culture. This doesn't mean that it's an inferior culture, but it is a culture that has yet to connect with the positive sides of our modern Western culture: religious freedom, human rights and equal rights for women. These shortcomings are one reason so many Muslims feel such frustration that often turns into hatred and violence against the West, which is despised as being godless and decadent. Suicide attacks are the actions of losers who have nothing left to lose. In this case, Islam serves as a mask, a cover for desperation and nihilism, but not for religion.

SPIEGEL: In which direction do you believe Islam is developing?

Kasper: One unanswered question is whether a Euro-Islam that combines Islam with democracy will be possible in the future. We mustn't confuse desire with reality. How should Europe behave? Europe sees itself as a liberal-minded society. It has no desire to be, nor can it be, a "Christian club. But Europe's experiment with multiculturalism, or the side-by-side existence of different cultures, has failed throughout the continent. Integration requires a minimum basis of shared values, that is, a culture of mutual tolerance and respect -- in other words, what constitutes the heart of European culture. This is why integration is not possible without excluding those who do not recognize this culture. Those who are unprepared to demonstrate tolerance cannot expect or even demand tolerance for themselves.

SPIEGEL: What kind of Europe does the church want?

Kasper: A Europe that qualifies its own values is not attractive in the eyes of Muslims. Europe must conduct itself as a strong partner, both intellectually and spiritually, and it must be convinced of its own advantages. This is the only way we will gain respect. Only a Europe that is conscious of its own values can be both an economically strong and a morally and intellectually respected partner, and thereby extend its hospitality to others. It's a cultural disgrace that we are forced to identify no-go areas for foreigners.

SPIEGEL: Is drawing references to the history of Christianity and Islam truly helpful in promoting dialogue?

Kasper: Christianity brought something new and revolutionary: freedom and unconditional dignity for each individual, regardless of his religion, culture or nationality. But the East and the West have parted ways since the Crusades. "Better the turbans of the Turks than the miters of the Romans," was once a saying in the East. The severing of ties with the East signified an intellectual impoverishment, which led to a crisis within the church in the late Middle Ages. It was one of the reasons for the Reformation in the 16th century. With its concept of "freedom of the Christian individual," the Reformation introduced an important intellectual and cultural force into European culture. But it also led to the fracturing of Western Christianity...

SPIEGEL: ...and to religious wars.

Kasper: These religious wars showed that the Christian faith was no longer Europe's unifying force. A new common ground was needed, and it was found in reason, which is something that is shared by all of mankind. This was one of the roots of the Enlightenment and its concept of universal human rights. The scientific and societal achievements of the modern age are undisputable. But after the French Revolution, modernity increasingly emancipated itself from Christian roots, thereby becoming rootless itself. This special approach was short-lived. The "Sonderweg" ("special path," a theory that holds that Germany followed its own unique course through history, and that this inevitably led to the conditions that gave rise to Nazi Germany) didn't last long. The end of World War I also marked the end of bourgeois culture. An inner emptiness developed that, in the 19th and 20th centuries, paved the way for two ideologies that dragged Europe and the world into an abyss and plunged it into a catastrophe.

SPIEGEL: And the Church now has a solution for this intellectual hole?

Kasper: The fundamental issue, when it comes to Europe's future, will be whether and how we manage to transfer the ideals that once made Europe great -- especially its Christian roots -- into today's changed world. No one wants to return to the Middle Ages.

SPIEGEL: Is this the conclusion you draw from the Inquisition and the attempts to spread the faith by force?

Kasper: The distinction between the religious and secular orders is a fundamental aspect of Christianity today. This distinction is an innovation compared to Islam and Judaism, and it is an advantage that has helped shape Europe. It is also rooted in the words of Jesus Christ, who said: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's."

 

[Kapsama]

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,437587,00.html

good read but the problem here is that human rights, religious tolerance etc. aren't concepts various popes came up with and shared with catholic nations around the world. all these concepts developed and evolved at the cost of christianity. modern societies in europe are hardly catholic or protestant hotbeds, they're secular democracies. similarily Islam is not gonna turn into a ubertolerant peace vehicle, but minority rights will exist once Islam is separated from politics in Islamic countries as well and as long as muslim nations are in such dissarray and poor militant islam will further flourish.

 

[Frankfurter]

i'm so sick of hearing about how muslims are offended by something someone said. seriously, you ****ers... shut up. nobody cares anymore. we'll start respecting your culture when you do something to show that you're respecting ours. when we see imams in madrassahs across the middle east saying that ideological plurality is a viable way of life for people in the world and doesn't deserve the business end of a bomb vest, then we can talk about western cultures being sympathetic to muslims.

i'm sick and tired of people who don't respect me bitching about how we don't respect them.

That's exactly how wars occured :lol
"You start reducing your troops and than we'll do the same."
"No Sir, you start!"
"Oh **** you little bastard!"

 

[Boogie]

That's exactly how wars occured :lol
"You start reducing your troops and than we'll do the same."
"No Sir, you start!"
"Oh **** you little bastard!"

Frankfurter, as I recall, you're not exactly qualified to be discussing anything about wars. ;P

 

[Frankfurter]

Frankfurter, as I recall, you're not exactly qualified to be discussing anything about wars. ;P

Yeah, because I'm an "ignorant German who doesn't understand the hard decisions that have to be made in war", right? :lol

 

[Guileless]

modern societies in europe are hardly catholic or protestant hotbeds, they're secular democracies.

The cardinal is arguing that the secular democracies of Europe, with their respect for human rights, would not exist as they do today if not for external aid that saved Europe from itself and the pathologies it developed after turning away from faith, specifically fascism and communism. The broader argument made by the Pope in his original speech is that a wholly secular and relativist Europe that denies its religious roots, as you do, lacks the capacity to protect human rights and cannot sustain itself in the long term.

 

[Snaku]

"DOOOOOOOOMED!"
"DOOOOOOOOMED!"



:lol

 

[Ripclawe]

Another day of anger, the last time this idiot called for day of anger was during the cartoon riots.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2006-09/18/01.shtml

CAIRO — Prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi has called on Muslims worldwide to hold a day of "peaceful" anger next Friday to protest the offensive remarks made by Pope Benedict VXI, saying that the pontiff's expression of sorrow for the crisis still fell far short of an apology.

"I urge Muslims to take to the streets on the last Friday in the month of Shaban, to express their anger in a peaceful and rational manner," Qaradawi, chairman of the International Union for Muslim Scholars (IUMS), told Al-Jazeera's Al-Shari`ah and Life program late on Sunday, September 17.

"Muslims should be wise in their anger," he stressed, warning against attacking churches, individuals or property.

The prominent scholar regretted that some Christian places of worship had been attacked over the past few days.

"It is unfortunate that such a mistake was made by a man who represents one of the largest denominations in Christianity," Qaradawi said.

"It is unfortunate as well that the pope insulted a great religion whose followers are up to one billion people."

The fallout from last time.

DUBAI (Reuters) - Prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawi condemned on Sunday the torching of Danish and Norwegian embassies in Arab capitals by Muslims angry over cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad.

Qaradawi, who is based in Qatar, told Arabic television Al Jazeera that Muslims should instead channel their fury by boycotting goods of countries who published the drawings in their newspapers.

"We call on Muslims to show their fury in a logical an controlled manner," Qaradawi said.

"We didn't ask people to burn embassies as some have done in Damascus and Beirut. We asked people to boycott products ... We don't sanction destruction and torching because this is not in line with morality or Muslim behavior," he said, referring to calls to boycott he made during Friday's sermon in Qatar.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Another day of anger, the last time this idiot called for day of anger was during the cartoon riots.

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2006-09/18/01.shtml




The fallout from last time.

Oh jeez, what the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Kapsama]

Oh jeez, what the hell is wrong with you?

you didn't know? muslims have no right to be upset whether calm or violent.

The cardinal is arguing that the secular democracies of Europe, with their respect for human rights, would not exist as they do today if not for external aid that saved Europe from itself and the pathologies it developed after turning away from faith, specifically fascism and communism. The broader argument made by the Pope in his original speech is that a wholly secular and relativist Europe that denies its religious roots, as you do, lacks the capacity to protect human rights and cannot sustain itself in the long term.

Uh history disagrees with the Cardinal. In fact if the Church still had the same power over people Europeans might as well be drilling holes into skulls to release the illness causing demons. it is no coincidence that the more power the church lost the more europe leaped ahead of the other regions of the world in every field or category.

 

[Ripclawe]

Oh jeez, what the hell is wrong with you?

Nothing, just pointing out Qaradawi is pulling the same day of anger stunt he did last time, when violence erupts and churches get burned down, he will come and say oh sorry about that. The man is two-faced.

 

[MrMeltdown]

Here is the answer to what is REAL Islamic Jihad ... Unfortunately alot of Muslims dont believe this and are blindly following the Mullah's teachings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlHBqGQ5q1w



Here is the answer to what is really the Jewish-Islamic Conflict...Unfortunately again alot of muslims dont believe tihs and blindly follow the fundamentalists teachings


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM16wjxxZOw

 

[DCharlie]

So, Al Q vows to convert everyone in the world to Islam or kill them all in the process.

anyone in the moderate muslim world going to speak out against that i wonder?

 

[Kapsama]

So, Al Q vows to convert everyone in the world to Islam or kill them all in the process.

anyone in the moderate muslim world going to speak out against that i wonder?

you can't really do that because most moderate muslims feel that the loonies have a point when they say that Islam is under attack.

 

[DCharlie]

you can't really do that because most moderate muslims feel that the loonies have a point when they say that Islam is under attack.

I feel Islam is under attack - there is definitely an element in the western press tarring the entire religion with one brush that i find very distastefull.

However, this element on the other side of the fence is playing into that trap - the more the voice of fundamentalist islam continues to come out with statements saying they will murder the entire population of the world , then the more this plays into the hands of people wanting to show islam as dangerous.

However, if moderate muslims feel Islam is under attack, then not saying anything about this sort of thing means that sympathies go down even futher.

It's a vicious cycle and the only way out of it is for the voice of reason to come to the fore on both sides which is going to take someone cutting the stupidity on the western side, and a group with an amazing pair of nuts on them in the muslim side.

 

[FightyF]

I'm going to respond to some other points later, but I've already asked about what more moderate Muslims can do.

AND NO ONE HERE COULD THINK OF ANYTHING.

Beyond condemnations in mosques, in papers (newsletters and magazines), by high ranking scholars...not only against terrorism but against irrational and unIslamic reactions like this.

It's just not sensational enough for the media.

 

[Powerslave]

the way I see it:

- the pope is arrogant for saying this and even more cocky by not apologizing.
- the muslims threatening with physical violence are totally proving the point of the pope.

 

[PS2 KID]

I'm going to respond to some other points later, but I've already asked about what more moderate Muslims can do.

AND NO ONE HERE COULD THINK OF ANYTHING.

Beyond condemnations in mosques, in papers (newsletters and magazines), by high ranking scholars...not only against terrorism but against irrational and unIslamic reactions like this.

It's just not sensational enough for the media.

Build a Liberal Islamic network and go to war to save their precious religion from Radical Muslims who are well financed and networked than the lame-O liberal and Moderate Muslims.

How's that for a starter?

 

[Remedy]

The pope is a politician, he is placed in the vatican for political means. What he said was carefully calculated and has a purpose. When the threat was communism a pope from the communist bloc was elected, now the threat is islam because many western nations want oil currently contained within islamic nations, an anti islamic pope is elected. Take many of the things he has said against turkey as a starting point as well as also trying to push christian legislation into the EU constitution.

As far as the ottoman model is concerned it has yet to be bettered. Peace has not returned to the middle east since its fall.

Many people converted to islam because it is belived to be the truth, also much of the bible has been proven to have been debunked. When i say this mean there is sufficient proof that the texts in the bible today are not in thier original form, hence the qurans placement.

Now the point to all of this, what the pope said was exactly to do this, to create these arguments and thus ultimaly create animosity between ppl and conflicts. We as the public must realise governments want to drag us in for thier cause. To them we are cannon fodder.

As far as the media is concerned you must ask yourself who owns these insitutions and what is thier perogative. Rupert Murdock is an example.

 

[Kapsama]

I feel Islam is under attack - there is definitely an element in the western press tarring the entire religion with one brush that i find very distastefull.

However, this element on the other side of the fence is playing into that trap - the more the voice of fundamentalist islam continues to come out with statements saying they will murder the entire population of the world , then the more this plays into the hands of people wanting to show islam as dangerous.

However, if moderate muslims feel Islam is under attack, then not saying anything about this sort of thing means that sympathies go down even futher.

It's a vicious cycle and the only way out of it is for the voice of reason to come to the fore on both sides which is going to take someone cutting the stupidity on the western side, and a group with an amazing pair of nuts on them in the muslim side.

see i don't believe in that. i don't think the west is attacking muslims countries because they're muslim, that's just a war cry to get support from the ignorant masses. rather it's imperial powers being imperial powers, it would be no different if Islam was in charge of the world. you still rout for your "team" though.

 

[Kapsama]

Build a Liberal Islamic network and go to war to save their precious religion from Radical Muslims who are well financed and networked than the lame-O liberal and Moderate Muslims.

How's that for a starter?

yes even moderates in the US aren't capable of doing that, but you'd expect that to happen in the way more backwards Islamic world especially with the US being the one who's backing the biggest network of radical islam. talk about david VS goliath.

besides al-jazeera is hardly a radical muslim network. in fact they're pretty much the only FREE major media outlet in the arabic and muslim world.

 

[PS2 KID]

yes even moderates in the US aren't capable of doing that, but you'd expect that to happen in the way more backwards Islamic world especially with the US being the one who's backing the biggest network of radical islam. talk about david VS goliath.

besides al-jazeera is hardly a radical muslim network. in fact they're pretty much the only FREE major media outlet in the arabic and muslim world.

Hey it' not my religion.. if the other side (Radical Islam) is willing to give their lives, their children's lives and use any means possible to win. Then it's liberal (hahaha) and moderate Islam's loss.

I wasn't talking about tv networks. lol. Build a underground network. Finance it with every last penny of your contributors and arm your soldiers to the teeth to fight against Radical Islam. Give up your life, your family's lives, your friend's lives to save a religion from Radicals? Seems worth it, at least to one side.

Win or go home.

 

[Lucky Forward]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/19/pope.turks.reut/index.html

Turk workers urge pope's arrest

POSTED: 9:08 a.m. EDT, September 19, 2006

ANKARA, Turkey (Reuters) -- Employees of the state body that organizes Muslim worship in Turkey asked the authorities on Tuesday to open legal proceedings against Pope Benedict and to arrest him when he visits the country in November.

Muslims worldwide have been angered by remarks the pope made in a lecture last week that they said portrayed Islam as a religion tainted by violence and irrationality.

Benedict has said he is deeply sorry Muslims have been offended by his use of a mediaeval quotation on Islam and holy war, but has stopped short of retracting his comments.

Employees of Ankara's Directorate General for Religious Affairs, or Diyanet, presented a petition to the Justice Ministry asking it to launch a probe into the Pope's remarks and to detain him when he arrives, the Anatolian news agency said.

They said the pontiff had violated Turkish laws upholding freedom of belief and thought by "insulting" Islam and the Prophet Mohammed.

The protesters held banners that read "Either apologise or don't come."

It is not uncommon for individuals or organizations in Turkey to seek legal action against world leaders whose actions they disapprove of. They have never succeeded.

:lol

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Nothing, just pointing out Qaradawi is pulling the same day of anger stunt he did last time, when violence erupts and churches get burned down, he will come and say oh sorry about that. The man is two-faced.

How is he two faced? Can a man not be angry and not want to burn churches down? Liberals can bash bush and not want to assassinate him, right (well, there WERE a few exceptions here)? But I'm sure you think that also.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

I feel Islam is under attack - there is definitely an element in the western press tarring the entire religion with one brush that i find very distastefull.

However, this element on the other side of the fence is playing into that trap - the more the voice of fundamentalist islam continues to come out with statements saying they will murder the entire population of the world , then the more this plays into the hands of people wanting to show islam as dangerous.

However, if moderate muslims feel Islam is under attack, then not saying anything about this sort of thing means that sympathies go down even futher.

It's a vicious cycle and the only way out of it is for the voice of reason to come to the fore on both sides which is going to take someone cutting the stupidity on the western side, and a group with an amazing pair of nuts on them in the muslim side.

I think there are elements in our media that cause people to attack Islam verbally, which is why the idea that we're attacking Islam is a valid hypothesis. But the media will scream "HEY, IT'S NOT OUR FAULT, WE'RE JUST REPORTING THE TRUTH". And when we become overly reliant on third party sources for "truth" and moral decisions, then things become worrisome.

 

[bionic77]

Hey it' not my religion.. if the other side (Radical Islam) is willing to give their lives, their children's lives and use any means possible to win. Then it's liberal (hahaha) and moderate Islam's loss.

I wasn't talking about tv networks. lol. Build a underground network. Finance it with every last penny of your contributors and arm your soldiers to the teeth to fight against Radical Islam. Give up your life, your family's lives, your friend's lives to save a religion from Radicals? Seems worth it, at least to one side.

Win or go home.

Congratulations. That has got to be one of the dumbest things ever posted on GAF.

 

[PS2 KID]

Congratulations. That has got to be one of the dumbest things ever posted on GAF.

tell me what's so f'n dumb about it genius.

 

[bionic77]

tell me what's so f'n dumb about it genius.

I didn't follow the entire thread so correct me if I misunderstood. I just popped in today because I am waiting on a file at work and I am bored. But, as I understand your point, you were responding to someone else who questions what more moderate muslims can do. And your solution was to essentially start internal civil wars inside the religion between moderates and radicals. If that is your point I have to say it is one of the dumbest things I have ever read, but feel free to correct me if I got it wrong.

 

[APF]

I think there are elements in our media that cause people to attack Islam, which is why the idea that we're attacking Islam is a valid hypothesis. But the media will scream "HEY, IT'S NOT OUR FAULT, WE'RE JUST REPORTING THE TRUTH". And when we become overly reliant on third party sources for "truth" and moral decisions, then things become worrisome.

There are also elements in the media that wish to dispell any and all criticism or otherwise valid comments (that may be negative) against Islam; on the whole, Western nations are (IMO, and at least media-wise) far more likely to be self-reflective, self-flagellate, etc., seeing even horribly catastrophic events like the 9/11 attacks as an opportunity to wallow in self-pity and cry over the idea that someone doesn't like us. In contrast, I don't think I've ever seen any indication that there's this block of people wondering what failing in their own culture/etc cause "elements in our media that case people to attack Islam;" or at least the bulk of the effort I've seen, even on boards like this which are overflowing with eloquent and apparently Western-educated Muslims, is towards spinning any and all negative criticism back in the form of an attack, or simply trying to wave it off as though the implications are unimportant because they feel it doesn't apply to them.

 

[PS2 KID]

I didn't follow the entire thread so correct me if I misunderstood. I just popped in today because I am waiting on a file at work and I am bored. But, as I understand your point, you were responding to someone else who questions what more moderate muslims can do. And your solution was to essentially start internal civil wars inside the religion between moderates and radicals. If that is your point I have to say it is one of the dumbest things I have ever read, but feel free to correct me if I got it wrong.

I also questioned the hypocrite when he was 'Fight for Freedom' and telling people over a year ago that he would have the solutions to the mideast's problems on his webpage that never materialized. Basically he's given up and asking us to do his dirty work for him. If he's so damn smart he should think of solutions himself and present them on his webpage like he stated. Such a disappointment.

What's the hell's wrong with armed conflict. Are you of the camp that actually believes they can persaude armed Radical Muslims to give up with debate alone? That's not going to happen. You know it. I know it. So let's throw away PCness and false pretences. I happen to believe Liberal and Moderate Muslims can do more than just do PR work for defending their religion on message boards. If they manage to actually get off their asses and defend their religion from within, against their more popular Radical elements, then I personally think that's better than doing nothing but paying cheap lip service.

Let them sort it out for themselves.

 

[bionic77]

Let them sort it out for themselves.

Looks like this is some long argument you had with Fight for Freedom.

But, personally I think this part of your post is the real solution to this "war on terrorism". Instead of illegally invading countries and siding with shitty dictators, I think we should leave the muslim world alone and let them sort everything out for themselves as you suggested. Now I am sure someone will post after me that THIS is one of the dumbest posts they have ever read on GAF.

 

[travisbickle]

I think it needed to be said, it was offensive but in the modern World we may have to cause offence for there to be debate, we need debate. He gave an opinion, someone elses, of why the murder and terror is happening today, and we (as a world) need to talk about this, there should have been more said when there were Muslim riots over the cartoons of Mohammad.

 

[PS2 KID]

Looks like this is some long argument you had with Fight for Freedom.

But, personally I think this part of your post is the real solution to this "war on terrorism". Instead of illegally invading countries and siding with shitty dictators, I think we should leave the muslim world alone and let them sort everything out for themselves as you suggested. Now I am sure someone will post after me that THIS is one of the dumbest posts they have ever read on GAF.

In a way you are correct. I've practically given up on peace in the middle east. At first I supported the war in Iraq but in hindsight I think we went about it all wrong but that's another story for another thread. So what's left? Let them sort it out for themselves and build our intelligence networks to prevent terrorist attacks as best we can. If anything peace would be really really nice in a fairy tale kind of story, but it's like transitioning to adulthood, you wake up to reality and see that there's never ever been peace for probably as long as we've existed.

 

[AzureRonin]

I'm just here to say that every side is at fault. Muslims, Christians and Jews are completely unable to absolve themselves of responsibility as a group. Christians have a past littered with genocide, Muslims have extremist bombings and Jews are no better when it comes to terrorizing Palestinians.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

There are also elements in the media that wish to dispell any and all criticism or otherwise valid comments (that may be negative) against Islam;

Sure. I hear all these negative comments and poeple call them valid. So what? Do I care? Of course not. Because my method of argumentation is completely different from theirs, and what they believe to be is right is completely different from what I believe to be is right. The only thing I don't like about living in the West is that I have to listen to these comments, because they've been overplayed for about a century, they've just gained mainstream media support due to recent events (take for example what I read in academic journals from time to time).

Western nations are (IMO, and at least media-wise) far more likely to be self-reflective, self-flagellate, etc., seeing even horribly catastrophic events like the 9/11 attacks as an opportunity to wallow in self-pity and cry over the idea that someone doesn't like us.

Look, I don't understand what the hell you're trying to accomplish here. I understand, Western nations are more honest than Muslims. I get it. People can live happily ever after in the Western nations, and nowhere else, am I right?

In contrast, I don't think I've ever seen any indication that there's this block of people wondering what failing in their own culture/etc cause "elements in our media that case people to attack Islam;"

In other words, the reason Islam is being attacked is because there's something wrong with Islam. Well, this is a fundamental ideological point in many people's worldviews from the debates I have encountered. On the surface, it's a non-sequitur, but there are some underlying "evidences". This is a point to be attacked later.

or at least the bulk of the effort I've seen, even on boards like this which are overflowing with eloquent and apparently Western-educated Muslims, is towards spinning any and all negative criticism back in the form of an attack, or simply trying to wave it off as though the implications are unimportant because they feel it doesn't apply to them.

Oh jeez... not this again. This whole "Islamophobia" thing gets to you, doesn't it. I don't like the term anyway unless it can be concretely shown that your apprehensions about hte Islamic world can be shown to be irrational, which people obviously have not (due to how you always bring up this idea). Now, if you actually want to bring up a damn point instead of telling me that "Muslims don't see this, they don't see that, I'm so smart, blah blah", feel free to do so.

I'll lay out the situation for you. In debate, average people tend to attack easy targets. That's why when evangelists or average American joes attack Islam for some "moral" issues, they often look retarded and the Muslim "tu quoque" does work because they're applying all sorts of double standards and it makes their point seem convincing. But sadly, it doesn't work on brilliant people like you, because you may not ascribe to any sort ideology. When a brilliant person such as you observes this, you can expose Muslim fallacies and say that their arguments are inadqueate and "deflect any criticism". So here we are.

All this shows is that a lot of people can't form arguments logically. You whining about it accomplishes nothing.

Now, please, if you actually want to discuss something, let's take it in another thread. It seems like you want to say something but you refuse to blurt it out.

Edit: I just noticed this beautiful tidbit,

or simply trying to wave it off as though the implications are unimportant because they feel it doesn't apply to them.

Deceptively subtle, and I know who you're talking about. Either way, if this is about who I think it is, I'm going to ask you to substantiate your claims in a PM directed to me.

By being so indirect, do you expect anyone to address or at least recognize your arguments? I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

 

[APF]

Sure. I hear all these negative comments and poeple call them valid. So what? Do I care? Of course not. Because my method of argumentation is completely different from theirs, and what they believe to be is right is completely different from what I believe to be is right. The only thing I don't like about living in the West is that I have to listen to these comments, because they've been overplayed for about a century, they've just gained mainstream media support due to recent events (take for example what I read in academic journals from time to time).

I agree, if you don't like freedom of speech, "the West" is probably the last place you'd want to live. And the idea that any negative criticism against a religion--or any ideology--is invalid because it's been "overplayed for about a century" (disregarding the numerous centuries when religion and religious dictate was seen as inviolate and literally ruled one's daily life, often at the point of a sword) is another idea I'm afraid the West will try to disabuse you of rather quickly.

Look, I don't understand what the hell you're trying to accomplish here. I understand, Western nations are more honest than Muslims.

Uh, I never said that...

In other words, the reason Islam is being attacked is because there's something wrong with Islam.

I never said that either...

Now, if you actually want to bring up a damn point instead of telling me that "Muslims don't see this, they don't see that, I'm so smart, blah blah", feel free to do so.

Uh, I think I brought up many points...?

I'll lay out the situation for you. In debate, average people tend to attack easy targets.

Like what, a nun? Ok, that's harsh. But an easy target to me is having the suggestion that there may be violence in a community met by ... you know, ****ing violence. I mean, why prove the point? And isn't it more important to do something about the people who prove the point, rather than trying to handwave-off the concerns of people who bring that point up?

 

[APF]

Deceptively subtle, and I know who you're talking about. Either way, if this is about who I think it is, I'm going to ask you to substantiate your claims in a PM directed to me.

By being so indirect, do you expect anyone to address or at least recognize your arguments? I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

Huh?

 

[The Stealth Fox]

I agree, if you don't like freedom of speech, "the West" is probably the last place you'd want to live. And the idea that any negative criticism against a religion--or any ideology--is invalid because it's been "overplayed for about a century" (disregarding the numerous centuries when religion and religious dictate was seen as inviolate and literally ruled one's daily life, often at the point of a sword) is another idea I'm afraid the West will try to disabuse you of rather quickly.


Uh, I never said that...



I never said that either...

And where did I say it was invalid? I don't like these general words. WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHAT CRITICISM? How can I say all criticism is INVALID? We need to specify exactly what criticism we're talking about!

The reason I mentioned what I've read in academic journals is that these are ideological claims, and these claims have to be dealt with on seperate grounds, seperate from the idea of counter-terror efforts.

Uh, I think I brought up many points...?

Oh come on, you just whined about how western-educated Muslims deflect any criticism of their religion. This is not a point I even give a crap about. Tell me, what is it EXACTLY that's bothering you? Verbalize your critiicsms.

Like what, a nun? Ok, that's harsh.

Nice rhetorical technic. Has that emotional appeal. I was talking about intellectual debate in America, NOT ****ING VIOLENCE.

But an easy target to me is having the suggestion that there may be violence in a community met by ... you know, ****ing violence. I mean, why prove the point? And isn't it more important to do something about the people who prove the point, rather than trying to handwave-off the concerns of people who bring that point up?

Oh, so finally, you bring up something. You never even brought up violence in your prior posts. I'm not going to defend the killing of a nun or the firebombing of churches. And my religion condemns those specific actions. So, okay, I've issued a condmenation (like your favorite organization CAIR). So, do you want me to start some reform efforts, or should I continue to pursue my degree in Molecular Biology and Microbiology? Whatever you want, master.

I'm asking you to propose a solution, or at least give a viable option. Make it precise, not vague.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Huh?

BE FRICKIN' DIRECT. You know, eloquence is overrated, because when two people in a discussion are eloquent, it may accomplish nothing because obscure wordiness inhibits discussion.

If you have a problem with the violence, then lets discuss it.

So here is my input:

I think the actions committed by Somalian militants do not serve the interests of the people in the Middle East. See, look! That's a point!