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[Chairman Yang]

Well, those are pretty much commentary, so you won't expect to find any evidence there. T.W. Arnold has a good survey about Islam (the religion) and its spread. A lot of the religion and voluntary conversions were spread using the silk road and other various trade networks throught Asia. Another thing is that if you read the books of history, where our favorite orientalists get their facts from. An orientalist is a secondary source, the actual accounts are primary sources. The reason I criticize orientalism is because it interprets a primary source and imposes their own opinion on it. Now, if a Muslim reads these same books, he might not come to the exact conclusion.

Thanks for the book recommendation--I'll see if I can find it at my uni library (I still have to get to your previous recommendations as well). I agree that Islamization definitely spread mostly voluntarily at times (Indonesia/Malaysia are good examples), but at the same time I find assertions that Islam never spread by the sword ludicrous (and people in this thread have made those assertions).

As for the orientalist/Muslim perspective, I'm not overly concerned. I'm looking for basic facts and trends generally agreed upon by all camps, and I pretty much automatically filter out (or at least take with a grain of salt) and opinion or commentary on these events.

You may say that the Mughal invasion is reflective of Islam,

The Mughals weren't actually what I was referring to earlier--the earlier Islamic invasions of India were much worse. The Mughals were downright tolerant in comparison--at least until Aurangzeb.

but any Muslim (who isn't a revisionist) knows that a lot of dyanasties in our history have directly VIOLATED Islamic law. Take the Umayyads and their mawaali system. Yes, they umayyads did it, and it was actually spoken out against by MANY Islamic scholars. Ibn Al-Hajjaj did tons of anti-Islamic actions. You'll hear about the mawali system from orientalists, but you won't see what the Sunni Islamic respones to that mawali system was, because in order to study how people reacted to that time, you have to dig deep into the books of history and scholarship.

Actually, the history books I've read so far have been quite explicit about the Sunni Islamic response to perceived violations of Islam. However, ultimately I think that the actual effects of a religion are more important than what a religion actually says. People ignore religious laws all the time when it suits their purposes.

Whatever Islam's merits as an ideology are (and I think their are many criticisms to be made on ideological grounds, but I'd rather not derail this thread to discuss them), it's the actual history of the Islamic world that I evaluate Islam by.

I can draw a rough analogy with the role of contraception in spreading AIDS. Sure, people sexing up other people is against the spirit and law of contraception (obviously), but people do it anyways. And ultimately, contraception leads to more AIDS than alternative approaches.

Orientalists work within a particular framework, and you can see that when you talk to people that have access to primary sources that a lot of western-educated historians don't have. Not a lot of non-Muslim historians know Arabic, and I can pretty much show this through my experiences. All Orientalists do is work with what they can get their hands on.

Agreed. Again, however, there seem to be areas of broad agreement among all historians with regard to the Muslim world. The contentious details I filter out or take with a grain of salt.

Islamic history is rich and diverse, and if you use it to attack a religion, it's pretty much futile.

Well, I don't agree. I think there's no better way to criticize an ideology to look at what followers of the ideology have actually done throughout history.

To use history to attack a religion can lead to many red herrings and non-sequiturs, as I have experienced in many debates with people who love to pull the "but your people DID this". I care not for what other people did, whether it's relevant to Islam is all I care about.

I understand that viewpoint, but again, I don't agree. I think the actual effects Islam had on the world is VERY relevant to Islam.

Of course, Islam is an ideology and can be criticized ideologically. Ignoring the real world of Islam, how meritorious is Islam? As I said before, that's a whole different topic of discussion that I'd rather not derail the thread for.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Would you care to explain what the attack on iraq is then? twenty thousand iraqi's died in the past 5 months.. do you know that? Thank you america for liberating them and spreading your own definition of democracy.

an attack against iraq is an attack against iraq.

would an attack against korea be against all asians?

are you admitting that an attack against israel is against all jews?

etc. etc.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Thanks for the book recommendation--I'll see if I can find it at my uni library (I still have to get to your previous recommendations as well). I agree that Islamization definitely spread mostly voluntarily at times (Indonesia/Malaysia are good examples), but at the same time I find assertions that Islam never spread by the sword ludicrous (and people in this thread have made those assertions).

As for the orientalist/Muslim perspective, I'm not overly concerned. I'm looking for basic facts and trends generally agreed upon by all camps, and I pretty much automatically filter out (or at least take with a grain of salt) and opinion or commentary on these events.



The Mughals weren't actually what I was referring to earlier--the earlier Islamic invasions of India were much worse. The Mughals were downright tolerant in comparison--at least until Aurangzeb.



Actually, the history books I've read so far have been quite explicit about the Sunni Islamic response to perceived violations of Islam. However, ultimately I think that the actual effects of a religion are more important than what a religion actually says. People ignore religious laws all the time when it suits their purposes.

Whatever Islam's merits as an ideology are (and I think their are many criticisms to be made on ideological grounds, but I'd rather not derail this thread to discuss them), it's the actual history of the Islamic world that I evaluate Islam by.

I can draw a rough analogy with the role of contraception in spreading AIDS. Sure, people sexing up other people is against the spirit and law of contraception (obviously), but people do it anyways. And ultimately, contraception leads to more AIDS than alternative approaches.



Agreed. Again, however, there seem to be areas of broad agreement among all historians with regard to the Muslim world. The contentious details I filter out or take with a grain of salt.



Well, I don't agree. I think there's no better way to criticize an ideology to look at what followers of the ideology have actually done throughout history.



I understand that viewpoint, but again, I don't agree. I think the actual effects Islam had on the world is VERY relevant to Islam.

Of course, Islam is an ideology and can be criticized ideologically. Ignoring the real world of Islam, how meritorious is Islam? As I said before, that's a whole different topic of discussion that I'd rather not derail the thread for.

Well, I already know what most of the westernized world criticizes about the ideology of Islam. But I voluntarily accepted the religion, seeing past ALL these criticisms and I see certain things that make Islam great. I know it's hard to understand, but a lot of criticisms (i.e. apostasy law, stoning for adultery) don't really bother me, but not because I'm an inhumane bastard.

The problem I see with judging a religion by the actions of its followers is that it is in the teachings of Islam that the whole Muslim world will become progressively worse and worse over a long period of time, and as a result, there will be so much disunity that nothing will ever be accomplished. And plus, how can someone be a follower if an action is diametrically opposed. That's because they aren't a representative follower. The conception of the ideal Muslim can be seen in the writings of Islamic jurists throughout hte centuries. Some of them may have had weird beliefs in retrospect (ibn Kathir had some odd exegesis of some of the more poetic, non-legal, verses of al-Qur'an which in retrospect, this exegesis would be incorrect).

Also, it's in the teachings of Muhammad (on whom may be peace) that the dynasties will fall due to family-based ruling, and the traditional Islamic scholarship is what I find very intellectually stimulating on this subject (numerous sociology books were written by Muslims). I find a lot of Al-Ghazalis stuff and the science of kalaam pretty nice also.

So I judge Islam by its intellectual development, not the actions of some figureheads or some mass murderers. Whether the "house" of Islam expanded violently or peacefully under who or what ruler, or whether the actions committed could be attributed to the ruler, there were most definitely a good number of positive effects that the RELIGION had.

The positive aspects of religion may not be apparent on the "surface" but when you turn to the right people who actually have a direct impact on the religion, then you can hear some really enlightening stuff.

 

[MetalAlien]

Pope says jihad is violent, and authorities fear violent response from Muslims.

Pope FTW!

 

[Lucky Forward]

Here we go...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...for-popes-death/2006/09/16/1158334739295.html

Somali cleric calls for pope's death

September 17, 2006

A hardline cleric linked to Somalia's powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill Pope Benedict XVI for his controversial comments about Islam.

Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin urged Muslims to find the pontiff and punish him for insulting the Prophet Mohammed and Allah in a speech that he said was as offensive as author Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses.

"We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion," he said in Friday evening prayers.

"Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim," Malin, a prominent cleric in the Somali capital, told worshippers at a mosque in southern Mogadishu.

"We call on all Islamic Communities across the world to take revenge on the baseless critic called the pope," he said.

Reached by telephone on Saturday, Malin confirmed making the remarks that were echoed in less strident form by other senior clerics in the Supreme Islamic Council of Somalia (SICS).

Another SICS executive member, Sheikh Ahmed Abdullahi, vented similar anger at the pope's "barbarous criticism" but stopped short of calling for his murder.

"He must apologise because he has offended the most honorable person who ever lived in the world," Abdullahi said.

The German-born leader of the Roman Catholic Church has been condemned in the Muslim world for comments he made at a Tuesday lecture, in which he implicitly denounced links between Islam and violence, particularly with reference to jihad, or "holy war."

The pope also quoted a 14th-century Byzantine emperor who said innovations introduced by the Prophet Mohammed were "evil and inhuman."

Somalia, a Horn of Africa nation of some 10 million mainly moderate Muslims, has been wracked by instability for the past 16 years but has recently seen the rise of fundamentalist Islamists who seized the capital in June.

 

[MetalAlien]

I'd like to kill every last human on earth just so we can all know for sure if there is a god and who he/she/it believes was most right...

If there is a god, I'm sure it would undue my terrible work, if there isn't a god, at least the universe would be a better place. :

 

[Phranky]

After a bit of time not posting on GAF (which has helped my social life and attitude immensely) I've decided to log on, only to post this:

"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth" – Mikhail Bakunin

 

[COCKLES]

I can never understand the reveration that Muslims give to Mohammed. He's a messenger boy at best. At least Jesus was the 'son of god' - I'm not fond of either of them, at the end of the *GOD* is the man...and I don't need prophets and sons to get in my way of direct communication with the big guy.

Don't you just find it damn strange Muslims get up in arms about a prophet but seem to forget about God himself?

 

[Lucky Forward]

I can never understand the reveration that Muslims give to Mohammed. He's a messenger boy at best. At least Jesus was the 'son of god' - I'm not fond of either of them, at the end of the *GOD* is the man...and I don't need prophets and sons to get in my way of direct communication with the big guy.

Don't you just find it damn strange Muslims get up in arms about a prophet but seem to forget about God himself?

It reminds me of the veneration Catholics have for the Blessed Mother. She was basically a surrogate mother, and I'm sure she was a nice person, but Catholics have exalted her to demi-god status with prayers and statues, and have all sorts of doctrine and traditions regarding her that don't seem to have any basis in scripture. But at least she didn't **** any nine-year-olds.

 

[Dice]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060916/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslims

This is the most bitching over a non-statement I've ever seen. The pope isn't going to apologize for saying bad things about Islam because he didn't. He made a quote that may have been interpreted that way, and that is what he apologized for.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Someone needs to walk into a mosque with an irony bomb strapped to their ass.

Religion sucks.

 

[<nu>faust]

Religion sucks.

well i love me some sufism

Be Lost in the Call

Lord, said David, since you do not need us,
why did you create these two worlds?

Reality replied: O prisoner of time,
I was a secret treasure of kindness and generosity,
and I wished this treasure to be known,
so I created a mirror: its shining face, the heart;
its darkened back, the world;
The back would please you if you've never seen the face.

Has anyone ever produced a mirror out of mud and straw?
Yet clean away the mud and straw,
and a mirror might be revealed.

Until the juice ferments a while in the cask,
it isn't wine. If you wish your heart to be bright,
you must do a little work.

My King addressed the soul of my flesh:
You return just as you left.
Where are the traces of my gifts?

We know that alchemy transforms copper into gold.
This Sun doesn't want a crown or robe from God's grace.
He is a hat to a hundred bald men,
a covering for ten who were naked.

Jesus sat humbly on the back of an ass, my child!
How could a zephyr ride an ass?
Spirit, find your way, in seeking lowness like a stream.
Reason, tread the path of selflessness into eternity.

Remember God so much that you are forgotten.
Let the caller and the called disappear;
be lost in the Call.

rumi

 

[Kuroyume]

Muslims furious about something... So, what's new?

 

[Slurpy]

I can never understand the reveration that Muslims give to Mohammed. He's a messenger boy at best. At least Jesus was the 'son of god' - I'm not fond of either of them, at the end of the *GOD* is the man...and I don't need prophets and sons to get in my way of direct communication with the big guy.

Don't you just find it damn strange Muslims get up in arms about a prophet but seem to forget about God himself?

Say what? Unlike with Christians, there is no middle-man with Muslims. They pray to God and only to God. You will never find any prayer or supplication asking for help from the prophet. There are also no such thing as confessions, where one admits their sins to a religious authority and receives forgiveness, instead of admitting directly to God. They revere both Mohammad and Jesus as messengers and nothing else, with Mohammad being the last.

Try not to speak with complete ignorance, so you don't create some ridiculously embarrasing irony with your statement.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I'd like to kill every last human on earth just so we can all know for sure if there is a god and who he/she/it believes was most right...

If there is a god, I'm sure it would undue my terrible work, if there isn't a god, at least the universe would be a better place. :

I'm glad you admitted to this fact after I came to town.

 

[<nu>faust]

my sufism love continues

I Have Learned So Much

I
Have
Learned
So much from God
That I can no longer
Call
Myself

A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim,
A Buddhist, a Jew.

The Truth has shared so much of Itself
With me

That I can no longer call myself
A man, a woman, an angel,
Or even pure
Soul.

Love has
Befriended Hafiz so completely
It has turned to ash
And freed
Me

Of every concept and image
My mind has ever known.

hafiz

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Here we go...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...for-popes-death/2006/09/16/1158334739295.html

nobody does anything when jesus gets offended.....

 

[PantherLotus]

did i miss the part where muslims rioted violently in response the them being accused of being violent?

 

[Chrono]

did i miss the part where muslims rioted violently in response the them being accused of being violent?

Riots of Mercy, you goddamn bigot.

 

[Kapsama]

Ok let's clear some stuff up:

Did Muslims conquer lands by the sword? Most certainly they did, from the early Arabs to the Moors, Persians and the Turks and Turkics (Tartar, Mughal, Tamer Lame) new lands were always conquered by force.

The important part though is, did Muslims forcefully convert people to Islam? The answer to that question is a resounding no, even though there might be some exceptions.

As a Muslim my issue with Palpatine's speech is that people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

[Particle Physicist]

The important part though is, did Muslims forcefully convert people to Islam? The answer to that question is a resounding no, even though there might be some exceptions.

um.. huh? how can there be exceptions? they either did or they didnt.

 

[Kuroyume]

I love how the insane ones are all angry with the pope because of the comments and yet they're also asking for his head. :lol

 

[fse]

Pope FTW!

yea thats what I think too.
never a fan of him but eh. he says they are violent, now they are gonna kill him.
omg can't you see the funny in that:lol

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

I love how the insane ones are all angry with the pope because of the comments and yet they're also asking for his head. :lol

I just keep seeing this bugs bunny skit with him going

"AHHHHHHH SHADDDDAPPPPPPPPPP"

and then bitch slapping everyone.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

I love how the insane ones are all angry with the pope because of the comments and yet they're also asking for his head. :lol

I'd be curious to see how this would play out if the Pope was killed. Muslims are already treated poorly in Europe. I'm sure life for them would become 500x worse. Things wouldn't be too much better in the US.

Its like I said before, its time for this "Muslim Moderate Majority" to start speaking louder than ever before. PR statements and statements at mosques are clearly not enough. There needs to be united front against these asshole animals.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

I'd be curious to see how this would play out if the Pope was killed. Muslims are already treated poorly in Europe. I'm sure life for them would become 500x worse. Things wouldn't be too much better in the US.

Its like I said before, its time for this "Muslim Moderate Majority" to start speaking louder than ever before. PR statements and statements at mosques are clearly not enough. There needs to be united front against these asshole animals.

WW3?

extermination....


of muslims?
of christians?
of the world?


who knows

but 1 of those


I know id enlist in a heartbeat...

 

[AdmiralViscen]

Benedict is a moron. Bring John Paul II back to life, please.

Oh, the irony.

I'm betting the dude in that armors name ain't "Muhammed" nor "Ali".

Please quote Jesus' suggestion to take part in this. Because the quotation you made referenced a certain prophet, not a soldier.

 

[Chrono]

WW3?

extermination....


of muslims?
of christians?
of the world?


who knows

but 1 of those


I know id enlist in a heartbeat...

...


Exactly how low do you have to get until you come to the point where you would 'enlist in a heartbeat' to 'exterminate' over a billion people? ****ing pathetic.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

If they want an apology that bad they can go up to the vatican and get it personally...good luck.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

...


Exactly how low do you have to get until you come to the point where you would 'enlist in a heartbeat' to 'exterminate' over a billion people? ****ing pathetic.

not what I meant, those "individuals" that would endorse/carry out an act like that I would enlist to fight against in a hearbeat, the few savage individuals not the whole "ethnic group".

I believe that islam is peaceful at its core, but as has been stated radicals are hijacking it as a tool (as religion is unfortunatly used a lot as nowadays) to further their own ambitions.

Lord knows there are just as many bad apples in every religion, but thats my stance on it. of course other people would have the "Kill em All" starship troopers motto. And unfortunatly they are probably the majority if it came down to it.

 

[WARCOCK]

Ok let's clear some stuff up:

Did Muslims conquer lands by the sword? Most certainly they did, from the early Arabs to the Moors, Persians and the Turks and Turkics (Tartar, Mughal, Tamer Lame) new lands were always conquered by force.

The important part though is, did Muslims forcefully convert people to Islam? The answer to that question is a resounding no, even though there might be some exceptions.

As a Muslim my issue with Palpatine's speech is that people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

WOW JUST WOW. Initially when the Ottoman empire conquered the middle east they kept a tolereant policy but after a few sultans, i cant recall his name exactly he started actually forcing christian families to donate their children to the ottoman military, in which case they would convert to islam and become janissaries. They stole our children from us. And please explain what happened to all the christians from the holy byzantine empire one of the bedrocks of christiany ? They maybe didnt force it at sword point but regardless to say there was no external pressure is rediculous. Im so sick of this debate. You try so hard to co-exist, you sacrafice your children and pride to find compromise but it never works out.

 

[Kapsama]

WOW JUST WOW. Initially when the Ottoman empire conquered the middle east they kept a tolereant policy but after a few sultans, i cant recall his name exactly he started actually forcing christian families to donate their children to the ottoman military, in which case they would convert to islam and become janissaries. They stole our children from us. And please explain what happened to all the christians from the holy byzantine empire one of the bedrocks of christiany ? They maybe didnt force it at sword point but, regardless to say there was no external pressure is rediculous. Im so sick of this debate. You try so hard to co-exist, you sacrafice your children and pride to find compromise but it never works out.

Yes the evil Ottoman Empire was forcibly converting it's subjects that must be why the Greeks, Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Ukranians, Romanians, Moldawians, Armenians, Assyrians, Georgians, Shiites are all Sunni Muslim now.

Forcefully recruiting some boys to raise them as Janissaries is hardly enough to come to the conclusion conversion to Islam was by the sword.

Oh and as for the Christian Bedrock, if 2 million Armenians died during WW1 and most Greeks took part in a population exchange with Turkey how many more Christians would you expect to remain?

 

[Kapsama]

um.. huh? how can there be exceptions? they either did or they didnt.

Well any Europeans captured by the Barbary Pirates were forcefully converted to Islam or sold into slavery.

 

[WARCOCK]

I think your understating the point. Think about it by taking the children and converting them to islam you are effectively cutting the bloodline right then and there. Also keep in mind the ottoman's armies were huge. So wait since the turks didnt attempt to convert the armenians killing them is ALRIGHT? I actually rather stay clear from that subject in order not to offend anyone. And to say there wasnt any attempt at all to conversion really undermines the fact that there is such animosity towards the people you just mentioned and the Turkish people for other reasons... such as conquering their land (I.e armenians,greeks etc.) I really gave up to be honest, i dont care about home anymore and ill be happy relegating my nationalism to even the US
My uncles fought during the lebanese civil war and for what, 20 years later it seems like we are back to step one. Its just a gigantic quagmire,i hate it. The end.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Well, I already know what most of the westernized world criticizes about the ideology of Islam. But I voluntarily accepted the religion, seeing past ALL these criticisms and I see certain things that make Islam great. I know it's hard to understand, but a lot of criticisms (i.e. apostasy law, stoning for adultery) don't really bother me, but not because I'm an inhumane bastard.

Hmm...well, the treatment of apostates, stoning for adultery, etc. are all issues I have with Islam, but the criticisms of the ideology of Islam I was referring to (and I think are the strongest ones) are the same criticisms of Judaism, Christianity, and all of their sub-sects and variants. That is, the incoherence of the concept of God. The Problem of Evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) is the most glaring inadequacy, but by no means the only one. All of the Muslim answers to it have been wholly unsatisfying and irrational, just as the Christian and Jewish ones.

The problem I see with judging a religion by the actions of its followers is that it is in the teachings of Islam that the whole Muslim world will become progressively worse and worse over a long period of time, and as a result, there will be so much disunity that nothing will ever be accomplished. And plus, how can someone be a follower if an action is diametrically opposed. That's because they aren't a representative follower. The conception of the ideal Muslim can be seen in the writings of Islamic jurists throughout hte centuries. Some of them may have had weird beliefs in retrospect (ibn Kathir had some odd exegesis of some of the more poetic, non-legal, verses of al-Qur'an which in retrospect, this exegesis would be incorrect).

Hmm...I'm not quite sure I understand your first point in the paragraph here. As for people not properly following their religion not being "followers", I guess that's one definition. Personally, I classify as Muslims those who classify themselves as Muslims and are classified by the majority of the world as Muslims. That definition seems pretty reasonable to me.

Also, it's in the teachings of Muhammad (on whom may be peace) that the dynasties will fall due to family-based ruling, and the traditional Islamic scholarship is what I find very intellectually stimulating on this subject (numerous sociology books were written by Muslims). I find a lot of Al-Ghazalis stuff and the science of kalaam pretty nice also.

So I judge Islam by its intellectual development, not the actions of some figureheads or some mass murderers. Whether the "house" of Islam expanded violently or peacefully under who or what ruler, or whether the actions committed could be attributed to the ruler, there were most definitely a good number of positive effects that the RELIGION had.

Again, I find any intellectual development that the Islamic world had to be almost meaningless, as it's based on a false premise (the existence of an all-powerful, benevolent, omniscient God). However, if you accept that fundamental flaw, if you ignore the actions of people who claim to be Muslims, and don't particularly care about certain Islamic laws many would consider inhuman, then I guess you can judge Islam differently.

The positive aspects of religion may not be apparent on the "surface" but when you turn to the right people who actually have a direct impact on the religion, then you can hear some really enlightening stuff.

Islam has some positive aspects, I suppose, but there are two problems:

1. I don't think there's anything positive it's done that couldn't have been done by something else. For example, Islam promoted racial harmony, but so did the Roman Empire (with its citizenship mechanism and somewhat meritocratic society).

2. I'm definitely not convinced that whatever good Islam has brought outweighs the evil it's also brought. In fact, the latter seems far stronger to me than the former.

 

[MetalAlien]

I'm glad you admitted to this fact after I came to town.

Yea right, you know you'll be PM-ing me again if you ever come back to vegas. Nobody can resist shooting the .50 cal.

 

[Phranky]

Mr Centanni told Fox News the two had been forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint.

"I have the highest respect for Islam... but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns and we didn't know what the hell was going on," he said by telephone from Gaza City.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5290374.stm

 

[Frankfurter]

@Chairman Just out of curiosity, why do link to a wikipedia article that isn't existing?

 

[East Clintwood]

How is it that the Muslims always can call for the death(!) of someone and get away with it? I know the west trys to de-escalate things but sooner or later this calls for a proper reply. Do Muslims really want to mess with us? Fine, let's get it on! I wonder who might win.

 

[Phranky]

How is it that the Muslims always can call for the death(!) of someone and get away with it? I know the west trys to de-escalate things but sooner or later this calls for a proper reply. Do Muslims really want to mess with us? Fine, let's get it on! I wonder who might win.

Christians and atheists with their finger on the button of world destruction or Fanatical Muslims living in the 12th century... I wonder. Islam needs to be kept in check... it's becoming ridiculous that Muslims can call for the death of the Pope [or anyone else for that matter] and no one says anything. If that did happen then Islam wouldn't be in a good shape in 10 years time, even I'd be furious and I'm an atheist.

 

[East Clintwood]

Christians and atheists with their finger on the button of world destruction or Fanatical Muslims living in the 12th century... I wonder. Islam needs to be kept in check... it's becoming ridiculous that Muslims can call for the death of the Pope [or anyone else for that matter] and no one says anything. If that did happen then Islam wouldn't be in a good shape in 10 years time, even I'd furious and I'm an atheist.

It's just that I'm getting really annoyed by their behavior. They are like little brats who are doing what they want and we the parents do nothing. There should be a clear line in the west, one front and every time they make ridiculous statement like that they should get a proper reply like "We won't tolerate your aggression, any further verbal or non verbal attacks on our society will have consequences for you" And then there will be consequences. Somalia is a shit hole as it is, I wonder how they'll do if we cut off our support.

They need to be kept in line. Every statement like that pushes us back further and they are testing how far they can go. But the west does nothing because they are afraid. If someone gives a proper reply which doesn't include "may he be blessed" in every second line, he is risking his life. In some way we're already being blackmailed. We must accept every shit they put on us because of fear they might kill our citizens.

For once I'm calling for a hardline position on this very matter and believe me, as things are going right now it won't be long until such a stance and worse is taken.

 

[Remedy]

just out of interest are the turks the only mainly white people who converted to islam rather then christianity?

 

[MrMeltdown]

just out of interest are the turks the only mainly white people who converted to islam rather then christianity?

No turks are a part of the Ottaman empire, the last caliphate of Islam

 

[Remedy]

dude the turks where the ottoman empire much like many other empires that came before it, to say they were merely part of it is an injustice, as far as i know turks were established by noah's oldest grandson. Im just wondering if any other white nations besides the turks converted to islam?

 

[MrMeltdown]

dude the turks where the ottoman empire much like many other empires that came before it, to say they were merely part of it is an injustice, as far as i know turks were established by noah's oldest grandson. Im just wondering if any other white nations besides the turks converted to islam?

spain

 

[Zapages]

Albanians, Turks, Aryans, some spanish that I know of, and Bosians...

 

[Ark-AMN]

Italian nun shot dead by Somali gunmen

MOGADISHU, Somalia - An Italian nun was shot dead at a hospital by Somali gunmen Sunday, hours after a leading Muslim cleric condemned Pope Benedict XVI for his remarks on Islam and violence.

The nun, who was not immediately identified, was shot in the back at S.O.S. Hospital in northern Mogadishu by two gunmen, said Mohamed Yusuf, a doctor at the facility, which serves mothers and children. The nun's bodyguard and a hospital worker were also killed, doctors said.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack, and it was not clear if it was directly linked to the pope's comments. Two people had been arrested, said Yusuf Mohamed Siad, head of security for the Islamic militia that controls Mogadishu.

Earlier Sunday, a Somali cleric criticized the comments the pope made in a speech last week for offending Muslims. The pope had cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, Islam's founder, as "evil and inhuman."

"The pope's statement at this time was not only wrong but irresponsible as well," said Sheik Nor Barud, deputy leader of the Somali Muslim Scholars Association.

"Both the Pope and the Byzantine Emperor he quoted are ignorant of Islam and it is noble Prophet," he told journalists at a news conference in the capital Mogadishu.

In Rome, Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi called the nun's slaying "a horrible episode," the Italian news agency ANSA said. "Let's hope that it will be an isolated fact."

Lombardi indicated the shooting could be related to the uproar over the pope's remarks.

"We are following with concern the consequences of this wave of hate, hoping that it does not lead to grave consequences for the church in the world," he was quoted as saying.

Benedict apologized earlier Sunday for the angry reaction to his remarks, which he said came from a text that didn't reflect his personal opinion.

Witnesses also said the shooting and the pope's comments appeared to be linked.

"These gunmen always look for white people to kill, and now the pope gave them the reason to do their worst," said Mohamud Durguf Derow, who was at the scene when the nun was killed.

The nun, who spoke fluent Somali, was believed to be around 60 and had been working at the hospital since 2002, said witnesses at the hospital on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.

Somalia has been without an effective central government since warlords overthrew it's longtime dictator in 1991 and divided the nation into fiefdoms. The Islamic fundamentalists have stepped into the vacuum as an alternative military and political power.

The current interim government was established two years ago with the support of the United Nations, but has failed to assert any power outside its base in Baidoa, 150 miles from Mogadishu.

The Islamic group, which seized the capital and much of southern Somalia this summer, is credited with bringing a semblance of order to the country after years of anarchy, but some of its leaders have been linked to al-Qaida and there are fears of an emerging Taliban-style regime.

And the Pope's apology:

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday that he was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction to his recent remarks about Islam, which he said came from a text that didn't reflect his personal opinion.

"These (words) were in fact a quotation from a Medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought," Benedict told pilgrims at his summer palace outside Rome.

The pope sparked the controversy when, in a speech Tuesday to university professors during a pilgrimage to his native Germany, he cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, Islam's founder, as "evil and inhuman."

"At this time I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims," the pope said Sunday.

Muslim leaders in the Mideast gave mixed reactions to the pontiff's apology.

Mahmoud Ashour, the former deputy of Cairo's Al-Azhar Mosque, the Sunni Arab world's most powerful institution, told Al-Arabiya TV immediately after the pope's speech that, "It is not enough. He should apologize because he insulted the beliefs of Islam. He must apologize in a frank way and say he made a mistake."

Mohammed al-Nujeimi, a professor at the Institute of Judicial and Islamic Studies in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, also criticized the pope's statement.

"The pope does not want to apologize. He is evading apology and what he said today is a repetition of his previous statement," he told Al-Arabiya TV.

The Vatican released a statement Saturday saying the pope "sincerely regrets" that Muslims were offended, but stopped short of the apology demanded by many Muslim leaders.

But the leader of Egypt's largest Islamic political group, the Muslim Brotherhood, said that "while anger over the Pope's remarks is necessary, it shouldn't last for long."

"While he is the head of the Catholic Church in the world, many Europeans are not following (the church) so what he said won't influence them. Our relations with Christians should remain good, civilized and cooperative," Mohammed Mahdi Akef told The Associated Press.

Turkey's foreign minister said Sunday the pope was still expected to visit in November in what would be his first trip to a Muslim nation. "From our point of view, there is no change," Abdullah Gul told reporters before departing for a trip to the United States.

The Vatican's secretary of state echoed Gul's remarks.

"I hope that he will do" the trip, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone was quoted as saying by the Italian news agency ANSA. "Until now, there are no reasons not to make it."

Russian President Vladimir Putin earlier urged world religious leaders to show "responsibility and restraint" to avoid what he called "extremes" in relations between faiths.

"We understand perfectly how sensitive this sphere is. I think it would be right if we call for responsibility and restraint from the leaders of all world faiths," he said during a meeting with parliamentary leaders from Group of Eight nations in the Russian resort city of Sochi.

In his speech on Tuesday, Benedict quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

The remarks sparked protests and some violence across parts of the Muslim world.

Earlier Sunday in the West Bank, two churches were set on fire as anger over the pope's comments grew throughout the Palestinian territories.

In the town of Tulkarem, a 170-year-old stone church was torched before dawn and its interior was destroyed, Christian officials said. In the village of Tubas, a small church was attacked with firebombs and partially burned, Christians said. Neither church is Catholic, the officials said.

Palestinian Muslims hurled firebombs and opened fire at five churches in the West Bank and Gaza Strip Saturday to protest the Pope's comments, sparking concerns of a rift between Palestinian Muslims and Christians.

Security was high at the summer palace before Benedict spoke Sunday. Police patted down many pilgrims, confiscating umbrellas with metal tips and bottles of liquids. Sharpshooters kept watch from a balcony and other officers, dressed like tourists, monitored the crowd with video cameras.

Police headquarters across Italy were also ordered to raise security at potential Catholic targets, the Italian news agency ANSA reported. However, at the Vatican, no additional security measures could be seen as tourists strolled across St. Peter's Square.

Italian Interior Minister Giuliano Amato said he believed tensions over Benedict's remarks wouldn't result in any further heightening of security concerns. He told Italian state radio that suspected terrorist cells under surveillance inside the country were considered to be focused on targets "outside of Italy."

 

[radioheadrule83]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/5353850.stm

Gunmen have shot dead an elderly Italian nun and her bodyguard in the Somali capital Mogadishu.
The attackers shot the nun three times in the back at a children's hospital in the south of the city, before fleeing the scene.

It is unclear if the shooting is connected with strong criticism by a radical Somali cleric about the Pope's recent comments on Islam.

The nun, who has not been named, is believed to be in her seventies.

The nun was taken into surgery in the Austrian-funded SOS Hospital, in Huriwa district, but she died from her injuries.

A fluent Somali speaker, the nun was one of the longest-serving foreign members of the Catholic Church in Somalia, a former Italian colony.

A Vatican spokesman said the killing was "a horrible act" which he hoped would remain isolated.

Yusuf Mohamed Siad, security chief for the Union of Islamic courts (UIC) which controls Mogadishu, said two people had been arrested.

Pope Benedict XVI inflamed many Muslim communities last week after making comments during a speech in Bavaria.

He quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor as saying the Prophet Muhammad brought the world only evil and inhuman things.

The Pope has since apologised in person, saying his remarks were misunderstood and did not express in any way his personal opinion.

On Friday, hardline cleric Sheikh Abubakar Hassan Malin told worshippers at his mosque to hunt down and kill whoever offended the Prophet Mohammed.

There has been no effective central government in Somalia since 1991, and although the UIC is credited with bringing some stability to Mogadishu, correspondents say the city is far too dangerous for all but the bravest aid workers to operate in.

Escalation + 1

 

[Funky Papa]

spain

Yeah, that one was very peaceful.

-Moor: Convert or become a killable third class citizen, infidel!
-Spaniard: Duh!

 

[MrMeltdown]

this thread should have an official logo, here it is