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[MrMeltdown]

No, this doesn't make sense.

You believe in a different version of Jesus and Moses. You use the same name, refer to someone from a similar location, but ultimately you view them as entirely different persons as Jews and Christians do. Rather than peacefully disagreeing, as the Jews and Christians are able to do about Jesus, you get pissed off. What's with that? You say we are ignorant and blind to the apparent truth of who they were, and yet you contradict yourself by acting like it is a purposeful, evil decision in us or something.

I'm really trying to understand, I even bought a nice Quran with translation, paraphrase and commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali who seems very highly respected among Muslims, but with all the explanations it always comes back to these things. This contradiction lets weak men of the Muslim faith become rageful and violent, and then the more peaceful ones in non-abaric countries sit on their hands talking about the internal struggle and never speak up to rebuke their brethren.

You make all the arguments in the world against the "unjust" views of non-muslims, and to explain the frustration of your people, but do nothing to silence this self-proclaimed evil of violence in your own people. You want to talk about being objective, there reaches a point that you have to stop sympathizing out of understanding and start objectively dealing with problems in your own people. I know being a reasonable christian doesn't do anything to help change the crazy, quarrelsome fundamentalism, so I speak up. I say this to encourage you as a fellow human being who wants to do good. Because ultimately, sitting around bitching about accusations and whether they are true or not doesn't change anything.

If you want to prove that your religion is peaceful and harmonious with others, you need to prove it in your actions and words and encourage those of your faith to do likewise. If you're forgiving, then you can forgive accusations that others make against and ignore them, even take the next step and befriend your accusers. The biggest problem is that everyone sits on the side of "their people" speaking of those "other people" instead of meeting together in the middle. Even if it's good stuff, a lack of fellowship will ensure a lasting lack of understanding or peace.

Here is some of my kind of religion

no we believe in Moses in same way Jews believe in Moses as well as his stories of rescuing the people from the pharoah. we differ from Christians in the fact that we believe that Jesus was a Prophet of God and not a son of God. we believe Jesus was sent to collect the 12 tribes of Israel and reestablish true faith in God among them as it is said in the Old Testament which we believe (all of it). The only difference is we believe Jesus as a Prophet of God just like Moses was a prophet and Mohammad was a prophet while Christians believe he is still living in heaven and is a son of God. We believe in same Christianity Chrisitans believe upto the point where they think he is the son of God, from that point onwards the differences arise

 

[Boogie]

We believe in same Christianity Chrisitans believe upto the point where they think he is the son of God, from that point onwards the differences arise

So you believe in the same Christianity that Christians do all the way until the second line of the Apostle's Creed.

 

[Dice]

no we believe in Moses in same way Jews believe in Moses as well as his stories of rescuing the people from the pharoah. we differ from Christians in the fact that we believe that Jesus was a Prophet of God and not a son of God. we believe Jesus was sent to collect the 12 tribes of Israel and reestablish true faith in God among them as it is said in the Old Testament which we believe (all of it). The only difference is we believe Jesus as a Prophet of God just like Moses was a prophet and Mohammad was a prophet while Christians believe he is still living in heaven and is a son of God. We believe in same Christianity Chrisitans believe upto the point where they think he is the son of God, from that point onwards the differences arise

Then you disagree entirely, because in Christianity even the earliest prophesies of deliverance and redemption are viewed as looking forward to Christ, God fulfilling those promises by his own hand (the only one that could). He is entirely central to all of history, that's why our religion is named after him. If you want a good understanding of Christianity then I'd recommend checking out "Perspectives on the World Christian Movement: A Reader". That is traditional Christianity in it's truest form, even globally rather than just the western Christians.

Even so, that wasn't the real point of that post. Oh well.

-edit-
Anyway, speaking of relations with one another, I've got a dinner/discussion time with international student friends that I go to on friday nights, plus it's my brithday, so I'm outta here. Have a good time discussing things.

 

[Boogie]

Happy birthday. of mercy.

 

[FightyF]

The Muslim reaction is perfectly understandable. Not reasonable, but understandable.

Muslims of the World today are ignored and misunderstood. Reacting with dialogue and reasoning is pointless, in the minds of many Muslims.

Case in point, the Jylland-Posten cartoons. For months Muslims were writing the papers, news networks, and the Danish government. I was one of them, writing a letter to the paper in December (I found out pretty late).

Did this get much media attention? Nope. Did people hear about Muslim concerns, or why it was offensive? Nope.

It was only when, 6 months later, certain people in Muslim countries decided to reprint them to incite a response, and they got one. As a result, there were a good number of protests that were perfect for news networks.

It was only then when people would acknowledge that Muslims were offended in the first place, and it was at that time, 6 months later, when Western Muslims were sought for their opinions.

The media (both Western and Arab) did little to clarify the situation, and we all saw the results (well, I'm sure most people here don't know about the backlash against Western Muslims...again, they only get one side of the coin).

I mean, look at this:

Lol, the guy just quoted someone, it isn't even his own word.

And of course, Muslims overreact again. I don't know of any other types of people who get so offended by the slightest thing.

"slightest thing"? As I said, there is a misunderstanding if one thinks this is a slight thing.

The quote claims that Muhammed preached to Muslims that they must spread Islam by the sword.

That is completely incorrect. If you knew a bit about the religion, you'd know that. Unfortunately, there is a lot of purposeful misinformation propagated out there that really prevents Muslims and Islam from being understood.

I mean plenty of Christians deride that Phelps cult. Mormons deride the FLDS. There's even Anti-Zionist Jews that speak out against Israel. Yet for Islam, miniscule if not nonexistent voices that speak out against the fundamentalists.

This has everything to do with the media that you watch, listen, read, and nothing to do with Muslims. Muslim organizations big and small, speak out against it in the form of PRs to media outlets. Muslims condemn it in mosques, websites, newsletters, and magazines...what more can they do?

The fact is, either you're willfully remaining ignorant, or the media just doesn't find it interesting enough to report. Since I watch the news from time to time, I can safely say the latter. Perhaps it's not sensationalistic enough?

 

[GSG Flash]

Agreed with Fight for Freeform 200%, couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[ronito]

This has everything to do with the media that you watch, listen, read, and nothing to do with Muslims. Muslim organizations big and small, speak out against it in the form of PRs to media outlets. Muslims condemn it in mosques, websites, newsletters, and magazines...what more can they do?

The fact is, either you're willfully remaining ignorant, or the media just doesn't find it interesting enough to report. Since I watch the news from time to time, I can safely say the latter. Perhaps it's not sensationalistic enough?

Sometimes speaking is not enough.

FLDS members are excommunated from the LDS church. I've seen members of churches turn in other members to the authorities for bombing abortion clinics and such. We see riots in the streets, cars overturned, and buildings burn over cartoons. So forgive us when we say that just saying, "Terrorism is bad." is not enough.

 

[fse]

sword of mercy :lol :lol :lol tell that to the people beheaded in iraq.

 

[MrMeltdown]

sword of mercy :lol :lol :lol tell that to the people beheaded in iraq.

im sorry what? you think those beheading people including Muslims in Iraq are following true Islam?

 

[FightyF]

Sometimes speaking is not enough.

FLDS members are excommunated from the LDS church. I've seen members of churches turn in other members to the authorities for bombing abortion clinics and such. We see riots in the streets, cars overturned, and buildings burn over cartoons. So forgive us when we say that just saying, "Terrorism is bad." is not enough.

No, I'll never forgive you because it's not fair for you to say that.

I asked you what more could be done and you didn't give me an answer. If you're implying that Muslims don't turn over potential bad apples...how can you ignore the 17 arrested in Ontario?

Secondly, you mention what you see...and what I'm telling you is that all you see is a very one sided account of a 6 month affair.. As I said, you didn't see how Muslims from all over the world wrote letters to the Posten and other media outlets, and how the Jyllands Posten was not interested in meaningful dialogue. How news broke out that the Jyllands Posten refrained from doing the same thing with Jesus as they thought it would be too contraversial. All you saw is what you saw on the news, and you didn't understand why people were mad, you didn't understand who exactly was mad and you didn't understand how they came to know about these cartoons.

You completely ignore the rational response, and you eat up the irrational response. To me, that's completly ignorant.

You also say, "just saying, "Terrorism is bad.". The fact that you say "just saying", as if the condemnation is only restricted to terrorism, or implying that the condemnation is weak, is another sign that you're just being ignorant.

I'm not saying it's your fault, or that you are being willfully ignorant (in that case I'd call you a bigot). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and lay blame on the media. As you said, you "see" this and that...and how do you see this? On FOX. CNN. Just as Arabs "see" evil America on Al Jazeera, you "see" Muslims through your media.

I mean, have you been to a mosque where the Imam gave a condemnation concerning the violent reaction to the Jyllands Posten cartoons? Have you heard the religious and historical citings he would use to tell Muslims that such reactions are pointless, wrong, and un-Islamic? That blaming all Danes for the actions of a few are just as bad as blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few?

Of course you haven't...there is a disconnect between Muslims and the media. Between Muslims and yourself. The media does nothing to help this situation, in fact I think in most cases it just fuels the contraversy. It didn't help you to understand the Jyllands Posten cartoon situation. All you know is "burning cars", but still yet do not understand why or how it got to that point. When it got to that point, it was irrational yes, but can you expect anything different if the rational response (which occurred for a good 5 months) was completely ignored?

 

[Ripclawe]

The Muslim reaction is perfectly understandable. Not reasonable, but understandable.

It is only understandable if you think violent reactions are normal for Muslims, it is not and its an abomination to Islam faith.

Case in point, the Jylland-Posten cartoons. For months Muslims were writing the papers, news networks, and the Danish government. I was one of them, writing a letter to the paper in December (I found out pretty late).

Did this get much media attention? Nope. Did people hear about Muslim concerns, or why it was offensive? Nope.

revised history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons

Muslim leaders wanted an official Danish apology for the printing of the cartoons, the government officials and the Prime Minister said over and over they could bring charges against the paper to see if it sticks. What they wanted was an effort by the government to stop what they saw as a smear campaign against Muslims by various people. That wasn't going to fly.

It got a lot of media attention before the riots as a free speech issue. It was covered.

It was only when, 6 months later, certain people in Muslim countries decided to reprint them to incite a response, and they got one. As a result, there were a good number of protests that were perfect for news networks.

No, they went on tour in the middle east, added false pics and played up what was going on in Denmark to get a reaction. They were actually reprinted in an egypt paper and got no reaction.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,398624,00.html

It was only then when people would acknowledge that Muslims were offended in the first place, and it was at that time, 6 months later, when Western Muslims were sought for their opinions.

The media (both Western and Arab) did little to clarify the situation, and we all saw the results (well, I'm sure most people here don't know about the backlash against Western Muslims...again, they only get one side of the coin).

The media especially in America went out of their way not to show the cartoons and said the Danes were not being sensitive enough. They also spread the Mohammed can't be ever drawn memo. It made matters worse because most saw it as a free speech issue that American media were kowtowing to Muslims in not reprinting the cartoons even as part of a news story.

http://www.latimes.com/news/columni...1,0,4701738,print.column?coll=la-news-columns

Earlier this week, I proposed illustrating this column with examples of the caricatures first published last fall in a Danish newspaper. If readers are to form rational opinions about both the ferocity of Islamic reaction and the American news media's response to it, I thought, surely at least a glance at one or two of these mild cartoons is required. I suggested that the cartoons run inside the Calendar section with a notice in this space concerning their location. That way, those who wanted to see them could, while those who might be offended simply could avoid that page.

I fully expected the proposal to be rejected, and it was — quickly and in writing, though the note also expressed the hope that the column would be as forceful and candid as possible.

This paper has ample company. The New York Times, the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal and USA Today all have declined to run the cartoons because many Muslims find them offensive. The people who run Associated Press, NBC, CBS, CNN and National Public Radio's website agree. So far, the only U.S. news organizations to provide a look at what this homicidal fuss is about are the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Austin American-Statesman, the Fox cable network and ABC.

Among those who decline to show the caricatures, only one, the Boston Phoenix, has been forthright enough to admit that its editors made the decision "out of fear of retaliation from the international brotherhood of radical and bloodthirsty Islamists who seek to impose their will on those who do not believe as they do. This is, frankly, our primary reason for not publishing any of the images in question. Simply stated, we are being terrorized, and as deeply as we believe in the principles of free speech and a free press, we could not in good conscience place the men and women who work at the Phoenix and its related companies in physical jeopardy."

There is something wonderfully clarifying about honesty.

As for any backlash, what did you expect to happen when Islamic leaders pull the old "if you don't follow our suggestions there might be violence against you" routine such as when the Western Standard in Canada reprinted them?

http://winnipegsun.com/News/Canada/2006/02/15/1443516-sun.html

OTTAWA -- A national Islamic group is launching a public awareness campaign to defuse potential anger at Canadians in Afghanistan after a western magazine published controversial cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

Riad Saloojee, executive director of the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations, urged Muslims to launch a dialogue in their communities and demystify their religion in an effort to avoid the violent protests that have erupted around the globe.

And Saloojee warned that in printing the cartoons, the Western Standard might have compromised the safety of Canadian soldiers patrolling Afghanistan. "We think the rash actions of some publications could put our troops in danger," said Saloojee.

Take that and add the even more violent reactions
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060218/w021832.html

MAIDUGURI, Nigeria (AP) - Nigerian Muslims protesting against caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches Saturday in violence that left at least 15 people dead, police and residents said.

Troops and police reinforcements were deployed to restore order in the northeastern city Maiduguri, where 15 Christian churches were burned, said Nigerian police spokesman Haz Iwendi.

Chima Ezeoke, a Maiduguri resident, said the protesters attacked and looted shops in the city owned by minority Christians, most of them with origins in the country's south.

"Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters," Ezeoke said.

Nigeria, Africa's most-populous country with more than 130 million people, is roughly divided between a predominantly Muslim north and a mainly Christian south.

that happened along with the refusal to even consider that in the West drawing/reprinting the cartoons is a freedom of expression/speech issue, you get a backlash.

This has everything to do with the media that you watch, listen, read, and nothing to do with Muslims. Muslim organizations big and small, speak out against it in the form of PRs to media outlets. Muslims condemn it in mosques, websites, newsletters, and magazines...what more can they do?

Not when it comes with a ..BUT at the end of it. People have caught on to that ploy used extensively by Muslim Council of Britain and now is being used by CAIR.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/10/nterr10.xml

Britain could face the threat of two million home-grown Islamic terrorists, says a senior Muslim leader.

Muhammad Abdul Bari, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, fears that continued negative attitudes towards people of his faith could provoke a vast and angry backlash.

"There are a few bad apples in the Muslim community who are doing terrible acts and we want to root them out," Dr Bari told The Sunday Telegraph.

"But some police officers and sections of the media are demonising Muslims, treating them as if they're all terrorists — and that encourages other people to do the same.

"If that demonisation continues, then Britain will have to deal with two million Muslim terrorists — 700,000 of them in London," he said. "If you attack a whole community, it becomes despondent and aggressive."

All you know is "burning cars", but still yet do not understand why or how it got to that point. When it got to that point, it was irrational yes, but can you expect anything different if the rational response (which occurred for a good 5 months) was completely ignored?

Yes I can expect nonviolence as just brushing it off as Muslims trying to get attention is an affront to Muslims in general.

 

[Enron]

what is it about that part of the world that makes people retarded? Muslims in Europe and in the United States don't act like this. Is it the heat? The Poverty? what?

 

[Firest0rm]

what is it about that part of the world that makes people retarded? Muslims in Europe and in the United States don't act like this. Is it the heat? The Poverty? what?

It's the governments, and their complete control over what the "opinion" of a nation is.

 

[Cooter]

Burning churches and killing people is a sure fire way to prove how peaceful your religion is…

 

[MrMeltdown]

Burning churches and killing people is a sure fire way to prove how peaceful your religion is…

since when are fundamentalists trying to prove thier peaceful nature

 

[MrMeltdown]

It is only understandable if you think violent reactions are normal for Muslims, it is not and its an abomination to Islam faith.



revised history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons

Muslim leaders wanted an official Danish apology for the printing of the cartoons, the government officials and the Prime Minister said over and over they could bring charges against the paper to see if it sticks. What they wanted was an effort by the government to stop what they saw as a smear campaign against Muslims by various people. That wasn't going to fly.

It got a lot of media attention before the riots as a free speech issue. It was covered.



No, they went on tour in the middle east, added false pics and played up what was going on in Denmark to get a reaction. They were actually reprinted in an egypt paper and got no reaction.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,398624,00.html



The media especially in America went out of their way not to show the cartoons and said the Danes were not being sensitive enough. They also spread the Mohammed can't be ever drawn memo. It made matters worse because most saw it as a free speech issue that American media were kowtowing to Muslims in not reprinting the cartoons even as part of a news story.

http://www.latimes.com/news/columni...1,0,4701738,print.column?coll=la-news-columns



As for any backlash, what did you expect to happen when Islamic leaders pull the old "if you don't follow our suggestions there might be violence against you" routine such as when the Western Standard in Canada reprinted them?

http://winnipegsun.com/News/Canada/2006/02/15/1443516-sun.html



Take that and add the even more violent reactions
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060218/w021832.html



that happened along with the refusal to even consider that in the West drawing/reprinting the cartoons is a freedom of expression/speech issue, you get a backlash.





Not when it comes with a ..BUT at the end of it. People have caught on to that ploy used extensively by Muslim Council of Britain and now is being used by CAIR.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/10/nterr10.xml





Yes I can expect nonviolence as just brushing it off as Muslims trying to get attention is an affront to Muslims in general.

CAIR doesnt CARE about Islam, its a political think group acting as a lobby

 

[Cooter]

since when are fundamentalists trying to prove their peaceful nature

Why riot? Only reason I can think of is to try and prove the Pope is correct in his controversial statement.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Sometimes speaking is not enough.

FLDS members are excommunated from the LDS church.

Excommunication? Stop trying to fit islam to your religous mould, such a thing is not possible in Islam. Islam is not an institutionalised religion, there is no clergy, there is no leadership. Who would excommunicate them, the ayatollah?:lol

I've seen members of churches turn in other members to the authorities for bombing abortion clinics and such.

And who do you think turned in those alleged Toronto bombers? The dude was a muslim too. I'm sure with all the other terrorism arrests going on there was plenty of muslim cooperation as well.

Not when it comes with a ..BUT at the end of it. People have caught on to that ploy used extensively by Muslim Council of Britain and now is being used by CAIR.

I see you're playing the "but it isnt a real codemnation" card.

 

[Firest0rm]

CAIR doesnt CARE about Islam, its a political think group acting as a lobby

And CAIR happens to be the complete tool of Saudi Arabia's interest, rather than working for the interests of American Muslims. CAIR needs to be taken out, and a true organization that serves the American Muslims rather than pleasing Saudi Arabia.

 

[effzee]

so u can say things about the Prophet of Islam and Muslims SHOULDNT get upset?

or is this the pre emptive "omg muslims are stupid/evil/bad" attack b4 some muslim grps tell thier ppl to burn cars or burn flags?

cause i really dont get it. if the friking pope says something like this and doesnt clarify wether he is agreeing with it or not.....wether u believe the statement to be true about spread with the sword or not.....how is a muslim supposed to feel? even the Islamic scholarship is split on the spread of Islam and while I know that the first 4 caliphs of Islam are seen as just the rest of Muslim leadership in history isnt considered righteous and of course a lot of the land conquered and ppl converted were thru wars. but at the same time a lot of the early battles were defensive as many ppl tried to take out Islam.

and really its not even about the spread with a sword thats offensive in the quote its the implication that the Prophet brought with him evil and nothin of use or good.

 

[Particle Physicist]

No, Islam did not use voilence and war to impose thier faith. simple as that. Only a fool (like alqaeda) would believe that. Ive been studying Islam all my life, I should know that for a fact

:lol :lol ..................:lol

 

[Particle Physicist]

so u can say things about the Prophet of Islam and Muslims SHOULDNT get upset?

upset is one thing.. thats fine.. everyone is entitled to that.. but riot?? thats a whole other sort of foolishness.

 

[MrMeltdown]

upset is one thing.. thats fine.. everyone is entitled to that.. but riot?? thats a whole other sort of foolishness.

oh ya, invade iraq but leave North Korea alone...Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, torture prisoners of war, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, rape a girl and kill entire family, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, Make cartoons of a Prophet Muslims are forbidden to visualize, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, Support Israel wholeheartedly even during 1200 civilians killed in Lebanon, Muslims shouldnt get too mad



oh..the above happened in a span of 16 months. dont even make me say the time before

 

[ronito]

No, I'll never forgive you because it's not fair for you to say that.

:lol Islam is the religion of peace and if you say something that I think is unfair about it I'LL NEVER FORGIVE YOU!!! Wow, you showed me.

I asked you what more could be done and you didn't give me an answer. If you're implying that Muslims don't turn over potential bad apples...how can you ignore the 17 arrested in Ontario?

That's great. It really is. However, for those 17 how many more are uncaught? Or are these the only 17?

As you said, you "see" this and that...and how do you see this? On FOX. CNN. Just as Arabs "see" evil America on Al Jazeera, you "see" Muslims through your media.

LOL you seem to overlook that most of my close friends are muslims. Or that I minored in religion and in so doing studied quite a bit of Islam. But hey, if you can sleep easier thinking that I'm some sort of NASCAR watching redneck. you can believe that.

I mean, have you been to a mosque where the Imam gave a condemnation concerning the violent reaction to the Jyllands Posten cartoons? Have you heard the religious and historical citings he would use to tell Muslims that such reactions are pointless, wrong, and un-Islamic?

Yes, I knew that these existed. However, I also know that there are Imams that gave condenmation to the cartoonist and the danes as well. You want to know what will satisfy me? I want universal condenmation of terrorists, I was Fatwahs issued across the board, I want it said that terrorists will go to hell no questions asked. I know that Islam isn't structured like western religions so something like ex-communication for terrorist and terrorist supporters, if it was possible. I'd be happy if I heard that in every mosque. I'd like for Islam come down as hard on itself as it does on others.

That blaming all Danes for the actions of a few are just as bad as blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few?

When did I say ever that I blamed all muslims for terrorism?

All you know is "burning cars", but still yet do not understand why or how it got to that point. When it got to that point, it was irrational yes, but can you expect anything different if the rational response (which occurred for a good 5 months) was completely ignored?

So when I send in my complaint to my landlord and he ignores it for 5 months then it's expected if I burn the building down?

You keep saying that I only see that bad, but this is my whole point. It's a disproprtionately covered because they are disproportionately executed. For example, if the founding fathers kept writing hundreds of letters to parliment saying, "Chaps, this taxation is dreadfully depressing to us. Could you do something about it eh?" we'd still be under British rule. If Ghandi only wrote letters he would've been fogotten. But the founding fathers throw a bunch of tea in the boston harbor and Ghandi takes a salt march and the world changes. If you have a cancer you cut it out and obliterate it, terrorism is a cancer on Islam.

If the rational majority of muslims took action as seriously with as much flair as their irrational counterparts then I'd really have nothing complain about. When catholics do bad stuff they're ex-communicated and condemned to hell and the catholics will do nothing with them. Again I realize that Islam is a different animal, but it's not entirely different.

 

[DCharlie]

"If that demonisation continues, then Britain will have to deal with two million Muslim terrorists — 700,000 of them in London," he said. "If you attack a whole community, it becomes despondent and aggressive."

what the hell is this bullshit!?

this isn't helping - too many arseholes in this world just wanting to stir up shit.

 

[Particle Physicist]

oh ya, invade iraq but leave North Korea alone...Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, torture prisoners of war, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, rape a girl and kill entire family, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, Make cartoons of a Prophet Muslims are forbidden to visualize, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

oh ya, Support Israel wholeheartedly even during 1200 civilians killed in Lebanon, Muslims shouldnt get too mad



oh..the above happened in a span of 16 months. dont even make me say the time before

what the f*ck ..

are you saying that riots are cool.. and its cool to kill people because someone said something bad about your religion?

people are constantly saying bad things about christians and jews.. i've yet to see a riot over that.. hell, ive seen tons of anti-jewish cartoons.


and why should all muslims be mad about some of those things.. an attack against iraq is not an attack against the entire muslim population.. there is something seriously wrong with this thinking.

 

[DCharlie]

lots of outrage quotes :

Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury, any (Islamic leader) who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world," Ahmadinejad said. Ahmadinejad also repeated the words of the founder of Iran's Islamic revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who called for the destruction of Israel. "As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad

.... where was the Muslim outrage at this?

this is the promotion of wholesale murder - surely contrary to Islam - and then Admadinejads defense was "oh i say that all the time - you never got upset before, why now? this is a conspiracy against Islam!"

 

[Dice]

It was only then when people would acknowledge that Muslims were offended in the first place, and it was at that time, 6 months later, when Western Muslims were sought for their opinions.

The media (both Western and Arab) did little to clarify the situation, and we all saw the results (well, I'm sure most people here don't know about the backlash against Western Muslims...again, they only get one side of the coin).

Um, actually I heard it on NPR nearly everyday since the first week of it's occurence as I ate breakfast in my car before going to class. You see, we in the west believe in this thing called "free speech" and tend not to go on murderous riots when someone says something offensive about our religions. After all, what they say doesn't change the truth, so let them be fools, right? It doesn't matter if you were ignored, that doesn't ever justify a violent response.

Shutting them up is not just to please a crowd, but it is saying that they aren't allowed to be who they are and think what they think. It is robbing them of their own identity, in essence, it is terminating their existence in the public field of thought. Do you see why this is a problem? Do you see why freedom of speech is important?

It is only understandable if you think violent reactions are normal for Muslims, it is not and its an abomination to Islam faith.

True again. And I agree with everything else Ripclawe said in the quoted post as well.

oh ya, invade iraq but leave North Korea alone...Muslims shouldnt get too mad

North Korea has one of the largest, most organized and most brainwashed armies in the world. A densely packed nation that is practially a military base in it's entirety, not to mention the underlying alliances involved. Do you realize what kind of a shitstorm that would start? Yeah, you shouldn't get mad. Also, I have a few friends in the navy and happen to know we have a ton of secret subs and official battleships constantly monitoring that entire area.

oh ya, torture prisoners of war, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

Shit happens in war and everyone is guilty. It's not pretty but nobody has any right throwing exclusive blame around.

oh ya, rape a girl and kill entire family, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

Did they leave a sign that said "Screw Islam"? I don't believe they did.

oh ya, Make cartoons of a Prophet Muslims are forbidden to visualize, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

Christians and Jews don't (at least not violently) when you slander their most scared things.

oh ya, Support Israel wholeheartedly even during 1200 civilians killed in Lebanon, Muslims shouldnt get too mad

Well let's see...

1) We went through one of if not the largest, most dangerous and economically painful wars in all of history to save their asses.

2) If you hadn't noticed America's culture is almost nonexistent aside from our war victories, honoring the valor of those who protected the helpless, and thus to turn on the Jews would throw away a huge portion of our national identity.

3) If we don't support them no one will, and we have about a dozen countries full of people who utterly hate them with all of their being and blame them for all of the strife they experience, are raised to hate them in schools (hello saudi arabia curriculum controversy a bit ago?) and simply don't want them to exist -- What do you think will happen?

Granted, I don't think Israel is innocent, and I do think America is using them as strategic global positioning in some way, but it's not as easy as you make it out to be and no you shouldn't be so pissed off. You are justifying so many arab countries because of the power of the ignorant masses, how is this different from what you condemn America for?

Is all this a lot like America's actions in reaction to terrorist attacks? Yeah, there are a lot of hypocrites here. But also notice Bush's approval ratings are perpetually in the 30's, that's not all of America, a lot of us are actively speaking up against the injustices our country is committing. Why wouldn't Muslims do the same for the things the "Nation of Islam" is doing in the middle east?

And even if all of America was overracting, generalizing, vengeful and violent, it would not justify you being so as well. The Quran would still teach mercy and peace, and for you to act as other would still be a disgrace. You could learn a thing or two from the Hindu's quoted to support your merciful religion. We aren't attacking your religion, we are questioning the integrity of your actions in light of it.

 

[GaimeGuy]

"ah. And I'll bet you'll try to tell me that Islam's rapid spread in the four hundred years after Muhammed wasn't done through military conquest either, yes?"

No the rapid spread of Islam was not done by Military conquest

Now answer my question, is your source wikipedia or some Christian orientalist philosophical book/website?

Look, dude. Islam was spread through bloodshed and warfare. So was christianity. So was judaism. That doesn't make the ideals of the religions any less moral.

To suggest that Islam's history is NOTHING but peace and harmony is nothing short of ignorant. No religion's history is like that.

 

[BigBoss]

Palestinians firebomb churches in the West Bank:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060916/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_churches

I'm guessing they weren't real bombs, they were using those "bombs of mercy" that don't actually hurt anyone.

 

[cybamerc]

The Muslim reaction is perfectly understandable. Not reasonable, but understandable.

It's understandable in the sense that it's expected. Unfortunately a huge amount of muslims find it necessary to react violently whenever something displeases them. Not all mind you, but still a significant amount of people.

Muslims of the World today are ignored and misunderstood.

Ignored? It is to laugh. It's difficult to ignore people who blow up bombs, fly planes into tall buildings, burn down embassies etc. As for being misunderstood I think muslims are largely to blame for that themselves.

Yes, there are good muslims who just try to lead a normal life, who don't want to cause trouble, who don't want to sponge off of social welfare systems and so forth but the problem is that many otherwise reasonable muslims seem to want a medal for being decent people. They bitch about the fact that mostly negative stuff gets reported in the press but guess what? The same holds true for the rest of us. And that's ignoring the situation in the middle east where anti-Western propaganda thrives in a way that simply wouldn't be tolerated in the West.

Misunderstood? Get over yourself.

Reacting with dialogue and reasoning is pointless, in the minds of many Muslims.

Well there you go.

I was one of them, writing a letter to the paper in December (I found out pretty late).

Do you live in Denmark?

Did this get much media attention?

Did it get the media's attention? Yes. Did it get much media attention? Well, that depends on what you mean by "much"? The front page is usally reserved for the big stories like, say, bombs blowing up.

It was only when, 6 months later, certain people in Muslim countries decided to reprint them to incite a response, and they got one.

You seems to be missing the part where muslims from Denmark travelled around the world with the drawings (and some new ones they made up themselves) in order to stir up controversy. One of them incidentally have ties to one of the recently captured terrorists in Germany.

It was only then when people would acknowledge that Muslims were offended in the first place

I don't think anyone has any problems acknowledging that muslims were offended. We just think it's a load of crap. The drawings were satirical in nature. In satire nothing is sacred and all good satire has an element of truth to it (as some of the drawings did).

Furthermore there's the element of free press which completely went over most muslims' heads. Yours too from the look of it.

 

[psycho_snake]

what is it about that part of the world that makes people retarded? Muslims in Europe and in the United States don't act like this. Is it the heat? The Poverty? what?

How about the fact that thousands of innocent iraqi's are getting killed, that america promised iraq democracy but have made things worse than before, that over 1000 lebanese people died over two israeli civilian workers. Muslims in western countries dont act crazy because they live good lives and the western countries have not done anything to them, People living in the middle east feel that america and the rest of the western countries dont give a shit about them and who can blame them, in iraq so many innocent people die and no one says anything, in lebabnon so many people died and america hardly did anything to stop it. When 911 happened every american wanted the people who did it to die because they killed so many innocent people. Iraqi's feel the same way about americans because america started a war against them over nothing and the iraqi people have suffered so much.

Muslim countries feel isolated. When muslim countries are in trouble, the only other people that will protect them is the other muslim countries and thats hardly anything when you compare what power other countries have. Some people were saying that the war on lebanon needed to happen because hezbollah were a big threat to israel, but israel will always have the backing of america and does anyone actually think hezbollah could do anything to israel when america are defending them. Even if every muslim country tried to fight israel the muslim countries would be ****ed because america is too strong.

As a muslim I feel that we deserve an apaology from the pope. What he said was out of order. A man with his status should be able to respect other religions instead of saying the stuff he did. However I do feel that riots are stupid. Ive always hated that about my fellow muslims. Whenever something is said against us we feel that the person has to be dealt with severely and its just stupid, but i can understand why they act like that. They feel hated and that no one will respect them unless they take things to the limit, but they cant seem to think straignt because they would have realised that acting like a lunatic will only make thongs worse.

The only way that the problems between muslims and the rest of the world can be solved is if both sides discuss the problems and try to find a way to stop it from happening because it isnt impossible. There will always be terrorists, but if the world cworked to gether we can reduce the number to a minimum. The muslim community needs to be shown that they matter and people in the muslimc ommunity need to stand up and tell the rest of the people that there are other ways to solve the problem. It isnt an overnight process, this thing could take years, but if there are not plans to make relations better then we are all in a lot of trouble because this is only going to get worse and worse.

 

[psycho_snake]

It's understandable in the sense that it's expected. Unfortunately a huge amount of muslims find it necessary to react violently whenever something displeases them. Not all mind you, but still a significant amount of people.

This is true. There are muslims who feel that the only way to solve a problem is through violence and its stupid because its only going to make more people believe that most muslims are evil people. There will be many muslims who wish that he gets killed when he visits turkey. Now I can understand the anger at the pope, but to want him killed is so stupid.

 

[MrPing1000]

So how long before Muslims start accidently killing eachother whilst protesting again?

 

[DCharlie]

Now I can understand the anger at the pope, but to want him killed is so stupid.

if anything happens to the pope, Islam will never EVER live it down - the actions of an idiot few could really kick something big off.

 

[segasonic]

Oh, the irony.

I'm betting the dude in that armors name ain't "Muhammed" nor "Ali".

Only difference is that the crusades were 1000 years ago while Islamistic fundamentalists are bombing innocents right here and right now...

 

[<nu>faust]

this thread needs more pictures

 

[Pimpwerx]

Only difference is that the crusades were 1000 years ago while Islamistic fundamentalists are bombing innocents right here and right now...

WTF? Islam isn't on some crusade right now, that's just ridiculous. The countries that are waging war and trying to spread their culture right now are primarily zionist. Take that how you will. We might as well put the ****ing crucifix on our planes since it's God bless this and that.

Anyway, this story and this thread once more reconfirm that religion is completely and utterly stupid. Polarizing people for no damn reason. Killing in the name of.... PEACE.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Oh, I'd like to correct something in this thread.

Expansion of Dar-al-Islam = military conquest.

Islam = missionary work. If there were forced conversions, they were mandated to go back to their own religion (Sunni Islamic thought). However, some caliphs/dynasties deliberately disobeyed this order. There are numerous instances of this in various books of history. And no, we haven't whitewashed our history, in fact, we're so honest that we actually record everything (both good/bad) under every dynasty/caliph so you can try and use it against us (but...miserably fail) .

State of the modern world = suck.

 

[Mobius 1]

this thread needs more pictures

 

[malek4980]

this thread needs more pictures

And it's an Anglican church.

LOL Greek Orthodox

 

[Zapages]

Solution:

1. Pope Apologizes.

Create:

Kurdistan out of Turkey, Iran, and Iraq.

Give Turkey EU membership as token for thier help in helping create Kurdistan.
Allow Iran with Nuclear development for peaceful means, but is heavily survilenced under the UN.

The Kurds will be then happy.

Divide Iraq up and give the Shia portion through Election to either become an Shia Arab state or unite with Iran.

While Sunni Region becomes a smaller Iraq.

Baghdad will be a divided between the new created nations.

America, Britain, and all other nations there will leave that place and let Egypt help fund a better "democracy" there. As of right now the democracy there is failing under our control.

This is my response after watching CSPAN 2 last night.

 

[DCharlie]

Baghdad will be a divided between the new created nations.

... and it'd be instant war between them! :/

 

[Zapages]

How? The Sunni will be happy that their capital is Baghdad and Shia will have the city as well.. If they become an Arab Shia state they can have it has a captal. Then you'll have east and west Iraq just like in Germany post WWII, but unlike Berlin which was in middle of East Germany. This will be right in the middle between the two nations. If there is conflict between then let the UN deal with it.

 

[Yazan]

Solution:



America, Britain, and all other nations there will leave that place and let Egypt help fund a better "democracy" there. As of right now the democracy there is failing under our control.

Haha Egypt of all countries? Or did you forget that the retarded president (who is hated by everybody beside the US) have ruled Egypt for about 28 years?

 

[Zapages]

Haha Egypt of all countries? Or did you forget that the retarded president (who is hated by everybody beside the US) have ruled Egypt for about 28 years?

True... But who do we have Saudis they will make it into another Afganistan? Jordan, is the ruler there any good? Syria(yeah that will happen), Lebanon(is in construction and have enough of their own problems), Kuwait(?hmm yeah right:lol ), and other smaller arab nations like UAE(I don't they would like to get involved) and Qatar....

 

[Psyclone]

an attack against iraq is not an attack against the entire muslim population.. there is something seriously wrong with this thinking.

Would you care to explain what the attack on iraq is then? twenty thousand iraqi's died in the past 5 months.. do you know that? Thank you america for liberating them and spreading your own definition of democracy. As for the current situation: the pope did what he did to provoke a response and widen the gap between the two religions. The reason? i don't know.. but i wouldnt go to turkey if i was him seeing as he must've pissed off a fair amount of people there

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Thanks for posting it, but it doesn't actually address any of my questions. It's basically a bunch of quotes saying that Islam didn't spread by the sword, but without any historical data or substance to back it up.

Again, could you inform me about the Islamic invasions of India, Afghanistan, Africa, and Byzantium, and how the Islamic world never used violence and war to impose their faith? I'm trying to have an open mind here but all of the historical evidence I've seen points the other way.

Well, those are pretty much commentary, so you won't expect to find any evidence there. T.W. Arnold has a good survey about Islam (the religion) and its spread. A lot of the religion and voluntary conversions were spread using the silk road and other various trade networks throught Asia. Another thing is that if you read the books of history, where our favorite orientalists get their facts from. An orientalist is a secondary source, the actual accounts are primary sources. The reason I criticize orientalism is because it interprets a primary source and imposes their own opinion on it. Now, if a Muslim reads these same books, he might not come to the exact conclusion.

You may say that the Mughal invasion is reflective of Islam, but any Muslim (who isn't a revisionist) knows that a lot of dyanasties in our history have directly VIOLATED Islamic law. Take the Umayyads and their mawaali system. Yes, they umayyads did it, and it was actually spoken out against by MANY Islamic scholars. Ibn Al-Hajjaj did tons of anti-Islamic actions. You'll hear about the mawali system from orientalists, but you won't see what the Sunni Islamic respones to that mawali system was, because in order to study how people reacted to that time, you have to dig deep into the books of history and scholarship.

Orientalists work within a particular framework, and you can see that when you talk to people that have access to primary sources that a lot of western-educated historians don't have. Not a lot of non-Muslim historians know Arabic, and I can pretty much show this through my experiences. All Orientalists do is work with what they can get their hands on.

Islamic history is rich and diverse, and if you use it to attack a religion, it's pretty much futile.

To use history to attack a religion can lead to many red herrings and non-sequiturs, as I have experienced in many debates with people who love to pull the "but your people DID this". I care not for what other people did, whether it's relevant to Islam is all I care about.

 

[Yazan]

True... But who do we have Saudis they will make it into another Afganistan? Jordan, is the ruler there any good? Syria(yeah that will happen), Lebanon(is in construction and have enough of their own problems), Kuwait(?hmm yeah right:lol ), and other smaller arab nations like UAE(I don't they would like to get involved) and Qatar....

That’s the problem, there isn’t any Arabic working democracy (Palestine and Lebanon are the nearest and there are lots of problems that needs to be solved first). And it will take quite some time before any other country is going to look like a western country when we have presidents that have ruled for 20+ years.

Just to quote a man I meet for couple of weeks ago:

"What is the difference between the western and Arabic president?

The presidents in the Europe are surrounded by all their ministers but the Arabic presidents are surrounded by their doctors."

 

[Diomedeskun]

This is a delicate situation, and I am not at all surprised by the Pope's comments being taken out of context, but it is unfortunate.

The Catholic Church holds a great deal of respect for the followers of Islam, but it does not agree with the Islamic faith on a great many principles. The Catholic Church also disagrees with every other faith in the world, including Greek Orthodox (on two dogmatic points primarily), to some greater or lesser extent. That is what makes it the Catholic Church, and not some other religion.

That said, the western world seems to feel a great collective guilt over the crusades nowadays. No act of violence against others is something to be proud of, but the crusades are greatly misunderstood. The crusades were not an act of Christendom seeking to quash the heathen world by force of arms. They were a far more wordly series of events that was much in keeping with typical warfare of the time.

Western Europe was invited by the Byzantines, the remainder of the easter Roman empire, to participate as a mercenary force in their defense against the invading saracens. While Christianity versus Islam was a visible aspect of the conflict, it was not the heart of the matter. The western nations were caught up in killing each other at the time, so the idea of the Christian nation uniting with a common goal appealed to the Pope.

Yes, there were atrocities committed, but they happened on both sides. There was also miscommunication and vengeful acts between the eastern and western sides of Christianity that led to the final break between Catholic and Orthodox, but the West had as much right to defend itself from these invaders as from the mongols and any other invaders. The invading saracens would have gone straight into the heart of Europe next (and attempted to).

Sadly both sides were human and had as many corrupt leaders and uncontrolled warriors as any human armies throughout history. Both sides also wanted control over what they saw as holy territory and safe passage for their pilgrims.

The west needs to get over the crusades. They were no more or less evil than any other war of the time for either side.