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[Marlowe89]

How do you figure?

Fanboys.

I'm not saying that to derail the discussion, that's genuinely why some Naruto enthusiasts get so upset. Their favorite characters weren't included.

 

[Tathanen]

And that's disingenuine. You are, essentially, giving a pass to bad games because they have the face of something else that you like on the cover; that's poor. There are plenty of games out there that do justice to their brand while being good games, just look at One Piece Musou or Gundan Vs. XX. Hell, the Ubisoft Naruto games were pretty good for what they tried to be. But to excuse a game that has bad mechanics simply because you can run around as a character you like from some other medium is nothing more than deluding yourself. You, more than anyone else, more than people who are only using the Storm series as a catch up or a tertiary stepping stone to see where the story is, should be demanding absolute excellence. Not doing that is why there were SOOOOOO many terrible DBZ games a few years back and why it took nearly 10 years for us to get a working version of those games. A bad game is a bad game no matter who's behind it. Mickey Mouse: Castle of Illusion and Epic Mickey are two games that share the same licence. One is good, one is not, you shouldn't even entertain the idea of giving the bad one a pass because it has mickey mouse's face on it.

You are saying an awful lot while completely missing my point. I am ABSOLUTELY not giving a pass to bad games due to being licenses of something I like. I am saying that, contrary to your opinion, I think the Storm games are GOOD. Not because I like Naruto, but because they have crafted an extremely solid and entertaining representation of that license.

Virtually no anime games have managed this. Honestly I am extremely hard pressed to name even ONE anime game that has managed this. Budokai Tenkaichi is about as close as anything has ever come, but while it was a nice simulator, it wasn't really a very good game. The PS2 CC2 Naruto games might have been good competitive fighting games, but I do not think they were actually good license simulators at all: the battles did not emulate the experience of the show anywhere NEAR the way that the Storm games do.

And that is why I think they are great. They are amazing simulators (like DBZ Tenkaichi) but they are ALSO excellent games to play. I am not making excuses for "bad games," I am saying that I love to play them. That they are good. It is not a "bad fighting game" that I happen to like, it is a GOOD fighting game. The only thing it's not is competitive.

TLR - there is a HUGE difference between a game being good, and not caring whether or not a game is bad. And don't think for a second that if you don't care if a game is bad, then that means that it's subsequently good.

Well I never said ANYTHING remotely like this, so "okay." I am saying this game IS good, the only thing it is NOT is competitive. And competitiveness is categorically not a requirement for a multiplayer game to be good.

By the way,

Without fully functioning multiplayer, the storm series is a toy; something you play with for a little while, then put on the shelf and never touch again because you completed everything within a few hours.

I don't know WHAT games you have been playing, but the Storm titles are not completed and maxed out in anything resembling "a few hours."

 

[devious.one]

I'll tell ya guys, I love that these games are the way they are. I want them arcadey, broken, and shallow. Gimme flash and frenetic fun that anyone can master in minutes. They're fanservice games, they serve to scratch my brawly itch and cool-stuff quota.

Well said.

 

[Mesoian]

Virtually no anime games have managed this. Honestly I am extremely hard pressed to name even ONE anime game that has managed this. Budokai Tenkaichi is about as close as anything has ever come, but while it was a nice simulator, it wasn't really a very good game. The PS2 CC2 Naruto games might have been good competitive fighting games, but I do not think they were actually good license simulators at all: the battles did not emulate the experience of the show anywhere NEAR the way that the Storm games do.

What are you talking about? there are dozens of games that had the high level of technical fidelity that we see in the more universally known fighting games that had anime backbones. Jump Ultimate Stars, the DS Bleach fighting games, The Naruto Clash of Ninja series, hell, even the old SNES Yu Yu Hakusho games were pretty good when it came to balancing game play with source material. And I honestly don't see how you can say that the PS2 Ultimate Ninja series didn't emulate the show very well while the storm series does; they're practically the same fighting system! And that's the real heart breaker of the storm series, the only thing that's keeping these games from being FANTASTIC are tiny little game breaking issues, like hitstun and blockstun and chakra regen rates; tiny little mechanical changes that are different from the fighting games that they made for the PS2. It would be dramatically easy to fix, but they don't because the majority of the people buying these games don't care. That's why this series makes me pull my hair out because it's so close to being amazing on every level and the things holding it back are silly things that a few lines of code could probably fix.

But they don't fix them, so they stay broken.

Well I never said ANYTHING remotely like this, so "okay." I am saying this game IS good, the only thing it is NOT is competitive. And competitiveness is categorically not a requirement for a multiplayer game to be good.

It emphatically is. Why do you think Mario Party has such a bad reputation? Because at the end of the game, it doesn't matter who did what, the winner is always random, and that's garbage. Keeping this fair and level, the basic elements of competitiveness, is a must. And if you're not doing it, then you shouldn't be putting yourself out there as a fighting game. Call yourself a party game or something.

By the way,



I don't know WHAT games you have been playing, but the Storm titles are not completed and maxed out in anything resembling "a few hours."

It's been a while, but I wanna say I maxed out everything you could do in Storm 2's single player in about 12. I know a LOT of people who did everything you could possibly do in about 25, and I know a lot of people who did everything you could possibly do except the multiplayer stuff online, because it's so fucking broken, and just shut the game off and put it away.

Storm 3 looks like there's more stuff. That might be fun, the army commanding stuff, if that's an actual mode, could be cool. But let's not get it twisted, Storm 1 and Storm 2, those single player modes are good, but they ain't long.

I believe that the developers for this game and games like these need to be held at a higher standard. Or else we keep getting games like SFxT, where the implication is that the fanbase of two things coming together will be enough for them to get by, so why try all that hard?

 

[Tathanen]

What are you talking about? there are dozens of games that had the high level of technical fidelity that we see in the more universally known fighting games that had anime backbones. Jump Ultimate Stars, the DS Bleach fighting games, The Naruto Clash of Ninja series, hell, even the old SNES Yu Yu Hakusho games were pretty good when it came to balancing game play with source material. And I honestly don't see how you can say that the PS2 Ultimate Ninja series didn't emulate the show very well while the storm series does; they're practically the same fighting system!

Sorry buddy, just don't agree on the simulation argument. Fighting in a 2D plane is more than enough to break down the simulation score there. But even beyond that, only with Storm have the production values managed to approach a level where you really fee like you're "playing the show," maybe even playing something BETTER than the show. Anything before this never got beyond "game based on the show."

And just to be clear, I am not arguing AGAINST a few tweaks here and there for Storm, mess with hitstun and chakra regen, sure whatever. But these are just not the gamebreakers for me that they are for you.

It emphatically is. Why do you think Mario Party has such a bad reputation? Because at the end of the game, it doesn't matter who did what, the winner is always random, and that's garbage. Keeping this fair and level, the basic elements of competitiveness, is a must. And if you're not doing it, then you shouldn't be putting yourself out there as a fighting game. Call yourself a party game or something.

Ridiculous. There is a difference between not being competitive and "totally random horse-shit." There is NOTHING in Storm that is as game-breaking as that. If you blow chunks at the game you will lose.

 

[AZUMIKE]

Sorry buddy, just don't agree on the simulation argument. Fighting in a 2D plane is more than enough to break down the simulation score there. But even beyond that, only with Storm have the production values managed to approach a level where you really fee like you're "playing the show," maybe even playing something BETTER than the show. Anything before this never got beyond "game based on the show."

And just to be clear, I am not arguing AGAINST a few tweaks here and there for Storm, mess with hitstun and chakra regen, sure whatever. But these are just not the gamebreakers for me that they are for you.



Ridiculous. There is a difference between not being competitive and "totally random horse-shit." There is NOTHING in Storm that is as game-breaking as that. If you blow chunks at the game you will lose.

LOL.

Look, no one is saying you can't like STORM. Or for that matter "simulators".

But the fact that you like to play simulators doesn't mean the game mechanics of the a given simulator shoudn't be made better to increase competition. CC2 markets the multiplayer, because, its a fighting game! (even if its based on an anime!!)

To say competition doesn't matter is to say that versus multiplayer doesn't matter. But I know, whats the point when all we want to do is run around as cool ninjas in the video game and pummel each other senselessly, and look at the flashy combos? The point is not to win, but rather to simulate the anime! Wrong anwser.

Competition is necessary, and thus increasing the competition factor is necessary (or rather essential in fighting games). People are playing to win, which doesn't have to be stressful or bad.

 

[Tathanen]

LOL.

Look, no one is saying you can't like STORM. Or for that matter "simulators".

But the fact that you like to play simulators doesn't mean the game mechanics of the a given simulator shoudn't be made better to increase competition. CC2 markets the multiplayer, because, its a fighting game! (even if its based on an anime!!)

To say competition doesn't matter is to say that versus multiplayer doesn't matter. But I know, whats the point when all we want to do is run around as cool ninjas in the video game and pummel each other senselessly, and look at the flashy combos? The point is not to win, but rather to simulate the anime! Wrong anwser.

Competition is necessary, and thus increasing the competition factor is necessary (or rather essential in fighting games). People are playing to win, which doesn't have to be stressful or bad.

Literally every multiplayer game is "competitive" by that logic. I am using "competitive" in this context to imply "tournament-appropriate," as that is the main thing people have been complaining about. It is this characteristic that I do not believe is relevant for a game to be enjoyable, or even necessary for people to "try to win" at it, and have a good time doing so.

 

[Uthred]

. Hope they can be less casual and appeal to a broader audience, namely the people who like unbroken versus games!

The casual audience IS the broader audience. People who a) want and/or b) expect the Ninja Storm games to be balanced fighters are a much, much, smaller audience than people who want a fun game that largely replicates the stuff seen in the manga/anime (which, as an aside, is generally fairly unbalanced fights). CC2's times is better served cramming more stuff into the game than by chasing balance (which in games like this far too often equals homogenous movesets and tedious battles)

Also there seems to be this sad "hardcore" trend that if a fighting game isnt tournament balanced its a) broken and b) "Bad". Which is pretty clearly bullshit. CC2's goal for the Naruto games is, as was so accurately pointed out above, to create a "licence simulator". A goal which they generally achieve with the Ninja Storm games. It is not to create a tournament balanced fighter, nor do they advertise the game as a tournament balanced fighter. They advertise it as being a game in which you can play through the story of Naruto in singeplayer and fight your friends in battles which emulate the series in multiplayer. They achieve both of those goals. Just because you dont like fighters that arent tournament balanced doesnt mean they are "bad" or "broken". Its simply a difference of taste. Of course, its a) the internet and b) (holy shit do I love using a and b in this post) a gaming forum so of course peoples subjective opinion is going to be presented as objective fact. Balanced mechanics are needed for a competitive tournament environment because that environment necessitates everyone start out on equal footing. Balanced mechanics are not however required for the multiplayer gameplay to be fun.

 

[chicagocubsfan]

Fanboys.

I'm not saying that to derail the discussion, that's genuinely why some Naruto enthusiasts get so upset. Their favorite characters weren't included.

Well if you consider this game is basically for hardcore fans, it's really disappointing when they add such a little amount of characters and then tease some characters as playable, which are really not.
This Youtube comment breaks it down pretty evenly.

"Storm 2: 42 Whole New Characters with 4 moves.. - 2 Years of work.
Storm 3: Only 15 Whole New Characters with 3 moves. - 3 Years of work"

And its not like they had to balance anyone either.

 

[Uthred]

Well if you consider this game is basically for hardcore fans, it's really disappointing when they add such a little amount of characters and then tease some characters as playable, which are really not.
This Youtube comment breaks it down pretty evenly.

"Storm 2: 42 Whole New Characters with 4 moves.. - 2 Years of work.
Storm 3: Only 15 Whole New Characters with 3 moves. - 3 Years of work"

And its not like they had to balance anyone either.

Because of course the only new content theyve added is the characters. Perspective, its a wonderful thing.

 

[chicagocubsfan]

Because of course the only new content theyve added is the characters. Perspective, its a wonderful thing.

Yes, I know they added story mode elements too. But Storm 2 had the exact same story mode elements(boss battles, semi free roam), so no real excuse there either.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Yes, I know they added story mode elements too. But Storm 2 had the exact same story mode elements(boss battles, semi free roam), so no real excuse there either.

They were working on Asura's Wrath.

 

[AZUMIKE]

Literally every multiplayer game is "competitive" by that logic. I am using "competitive" in this context to imply "tournament-appropriate," as that is the main thing people have been complaining about. It is this characteristic that I do not believe is relevant for a game to be enjoyable, or even necessary for people to "try to win" at it, and have a good time doing so.

Anyone could do a tournament with any game, lol thats not the point I'm making. The main issue is not having Naruto games in tourneys. (at least with me) Lol. Its about making the game more playable, which may then subsequently allow the game to be played in a tourney.

So, reducing the word "competitive" to a tourney exclusive meaning doesn't seem to fit the arguement; that being that STORM game mechanics impede on multiplayer (the most important aspect of the said game).

The casual audience IS the broader audience. People who a) want and/or b) expect the Ninja Storm games to be balanced fighters are a much, much, smaller audience than people who want a fun game that largely replicates the stuff seen in the manga/anime (which, as an aside, is generally fairly unbalanced fights). CC2's times is better served cramming more stuff into the game than by chasing balance (which in games like this far too often equals homogenous movesets and tedious battles)

The casual audience is a LARGER audience. However, this is my point: Since the STORM series has progressed, the casual audience became a huge priority for CC2. And they've made bank off it. That being said, they have neglected the "hardcore" (for the sake of discussion) gamers who appreciated the multiplayer experience of the 2D games (which frankly was put together better). Instead, there has been a focus on looks and asthetics.

And that last comment made about cramming...should CC2 really take that route?? Lastly, well put-together games aren't tedious or stale. They're fun!


And FYI, I appreciate that we're having this discussion. By no means am I trying to hurt you guys I simply want to express my thought. I'm actually glad we can debate this. Thanks ;D

 

[chicagocubsfan]

They were working on Asura's Wrath.

Yeah, but they publicly stated that they had two teams: One for Asura's Wrath, One for Storm 3. They also claimed to be working on it right after Storm 2. I mean they could have just released this in the summer/fall instead of less than one year since Generations was released.I am guessing there is a lot of blame on Namco Bandai wanting to push the game out to increase profits too.

 

[Uthred]

The casual audience is a LARGER audience. However, this is my point: Since the STORM series has progressed, the casual audience became a huge priority for CC2. And they've made bank off it. That being said, they have neglected the "hardcore" (for the sake of discussion) gamers who appreciated the multiplayer experience of the 2D games (which frankly was put together better). Instead, there has been a focus on looks and asthetics.

And that last comment made about cramming...should CC2 really take that route?? Lastly, well put-together games aren't tedious or stale. They're fun!

And FYI, I appreciate that we're having this discussion. By no means am I trying to hurt you guys I simply want to express my thought. I'm actually glad we can debate this. Thanks ;D

I certainly appreciate a well put together balanced fighter, I'm a big fan of traditionally balanced fighting games. But its just not what I look for in the Ninja Storm games, Im more interested in them being enjoyable "licence simulators", now admittedly they might be able to make them both but CC2 dont seem interested in doing that when it comes to licensed properties (e.g. they flat out stated they werent interested in balancing the new JoJo game). Also I think because the source material for games like this, especially in the case of Naruto, is generally "unbalanced" that pursuing balance would inevitably lead to compromises in how well it replicates its source material. I dont think we're quite at the "sweetspot" yet, a bit more balance wouldnt hurt. But I also dont think the games are broken or bad because they have a casual focus. People have every right to dislike the route CC2 has taken but I think its disingenous to declare the mechanics broken when they meet their design goals. It is fair enough to say theyre unbalanced though, because they are. But unbalanced mechanics are not necessarily broken (depending on the frame of reference or the design goals).

 

[Tathanen]

Yeah, but they publicly stated that they had two teams: One for Asura's Wrath, One for Storm 3. They also claimed to be working on it right after Storm 2. I mean they could have just released this in the summer/fall instead of less than one year since Generations was released.I am guessing there is a lot of blame on Namco Bandai wanting to push the game out to increase profits too.

Two teams doesn't mean two teams the size of the Storm 2 team. Also this game's story mode has a fair amount of new stuff, like the map for the war fights, and the musou-esque battles. New online stuff, too. Seems like a reasonable dev cycle to me.

 

[AZUMIKE]

I certainly appreciate a well put together balanced fighter, I'm a big fan of traditionally balanced fighting games. But its just not what I look for in the Ninja Storm games, Im more interested in them being enjoyable "licence simulators", now admittedly they might be able to make them both but CC2 dont seem interested in doing that when it comes to licensed properties (e.g. they flat out stated they werent interested in balancing the new JoJo game). Also I think because the source material for games like this, especially in the case of Naruto, is generally "unbalanced" that pursuing balance would inevitably lead to compromises in how well it replicates its source material. I dont think we're quite at the "sweetspot" yet, a bit more balance wouldnt hurt. But I also dont think the games are broken or bad because they have a casual focus. People have every right to dislike the route CC2 has taken but I think its disingenous to declare the mechanics broken when they meet their design goals. It is fair enough to say theyre unbalanced though, because they are. But unbalanced mechanics are not necessarily broken (depending on the frame of reference or the design goals).

Yup, I get your point, and the point you make is quite articulate. But I'm not arguing balance, I'm arguing game machanics (i.e blockstun, hitstun, stamina, chakra regen, etc)!

The 2D games I want so badly want back, lacked balance. Certain characters were very "overpowered", if you will. However, the mechanics were there to make it an awesome multiplayer experience. STORM is only "problamatic" in the sense that its not doing what its "supposed" to, that is, it tries to be a fighter, but its not lol. I may not be explaining that well, but perhaps you see my point. Meosian posted about this earlier. Its not that its wrong to think STORM and is an awesome multiplayer experience, its just that what STORM sets out to do (be a versus multiplayer game), its impeded by its own mechanics...

Of course, maybe STORMS sole purpose is to look good and not concern itself with mechanics. Maybe. But STORM could be that much better...

 

[Uthred]

Yup, I get your point, and the point you make is quite articulate. But I'm not arguing balance, I'm arguing game machanics (i.e blockstun, hitstun, stamina, chakra regen, etc)!

The 2D games I want so badly want back, lacked balance. Certain characters were very "overpowered", if you will. However, the mechanics were there to make it an awesome multiplayer experience. STORM is only "problamatic" in the sense that its not doing what its "supposed" to, that is, it tries to be a fighter, but its not lol. I may not be explaining that well, but perhaps you see my point. Meosian posted about this earlier. Its not that its wrong to think storms and an awesome multiplayer experience, its just that what STORM 3 sets out to do (be a versus multiplayer game), its impeded by its own mechanics...

Of course, maybe STORMS sole purpose is to look good and not concern itself with mechanics. Maybe. But STORM could be that much better...

Ah yes, I see what you mean. Yeah I can totally agree there, slightly more complex or involved mechancis would be great. I loved the old 2D games, while I feel the Storm games emulate the kind of action in the anime or manga better I certainly wouldnt oppose more rigorous mechanics (assuming of course they dont compromise replicating the source material). The discussion about whether the games are fighters are not is an interesting one, I think theyre fighters in the broad sense. But I can certainly see the argument that theyre more "competitive action games" than fighters per se. Largely because due to the fighting game resurgence over the last few years it could be argued that competitive balance has become one of the elements that defines fighters. I think the Ninja Storm games fall into that grey area that games like Smash etc. do. Though I suppose it would also be reasonable to categorise them into the same "competitive action game" genre as stuff like multiplayer Dynasty Warriors, Anarchy Reigns, etc. (though the lack of PvE play in the PvP segments of Storm make such categorisation difficult). All in all its hard to accurately categorise what type of game they are and depending on ones own personal genre definitions it can lead to disappointment/argument/discussion, as weve seen in this thread.

 

[Mesoian]

I know I'm spitting a lot of yang about this game, but I'm still getting it. I just don't wanna do what I'm doing with Storm 2 where I finish the single player stuff and just scowl at it as it sits on my shelf.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I know I'm spitting a lot of yang about this game, but I'm still getting it. I just don't wanna do what I'm doing with Storm 2 where I finish the single player stuff and just scowl at it as it sits on my shelf.

I went from buy to rent after I found out that edo kages, and other characters are not playable characters. I'm going to wait for 4th. I know it may be silly of me to decided to not buy based on characters, but I will definitely buy final version of storm if it's possible.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Yeah my hype kinda died down after seeing the content :/