Shin
Banned
Source: https://gamingbolt.com/native-4k-re...quality-requires-7-4-tflops-gpu-amd-developer
Personal note: that's not far off from what Cerny said to Eurogamer ages ago (8TF for native 4K, that's without bells and whistles BTW).
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Native 4K at 30 FPS requires a 7.4 TFLOPS GPU – AMD Developer
- Thread starter Shin
- Start date
Source: https://gamingbolt.com/native-4k-re...quality-requires-7-4-tflops-gpu-amd-developer
Personal note: that's not far off from what Cerny said to Eurogamer ages ago (8TF for native 4K, that's without bells and whistles BTW).
Leonidas
Member
Misleading thread title, that's what they estimate it'd take for PS4 games at 4K.
PS4 = 1.84 Tflops. 7.4 is 4x PS4
If you took the same ratio for Xbox One to Xbox One X you'd only need 5.2 Tflops to run Xbox One games at 4K. Xbox One X has more than that. The result is many Xbox One X games running at 4x Xbox One resolution with more detail and resolutions many times reaching native 4K.
PS4 = 1.84 Tflops. 7.4 is 4x PS4
If you took the same ratio for Xbox One to Xbox One X you'd only need 5.2 Tflops to run Xbox One games at 4K. Xbox One X has more than that. The result is many Xbox One X games running at 4x Xbox One resolution with more detail and resolutions many times reaching native 4K.
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thelastword
Banned
So in other words, Cerny was right....Which is in line with a thread I made on the subject a while back.....I can't wait to see what Cerny packs in a PS5 come 2020 tbh....7nm, GDDR6 et al.....
Night.Ninja
Banned
So how am I playing 4k 30 on my xbox x
octiny
Banned
thelastword
Banned
The target here addresses 4k native on all titles or the majority, just like the majority of PS4 titles are 1080p. What type of power would be needed to do 4k native on as many titles on a console??? That's the talking point in the OP...
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Pretty much. I also think that will be the target more in Sony's case to at least be around the ballpark of 12TF for VR's sake as well.
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Leonidas
Member
There will be a power gap next-gen. One console could be 15 when the other is 12.
Or Xbox could use nVidia and then the numbers won't matter since nVidia gets a lot more game performance per flop compared to AMD.
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nowhat
Member
The question is though... will it matter by then? I'm in the opinion that we're reaching a point of diminishing returns. Sure, 60fps or at the very least so-locked-30fps-that-you-could-use-the-framerate-graph-as-a-bubble-level is an absolute requirement for the coming gen. Less pop-in/shorter loading times too. But both will be probably handled by the improved CPU and (hopefully) faster mass-storage.
But when it comes to pure graphics, I'm quite astounded what a Pro can push at ~4TF. To have ~three times that, I'm drooling at the prospect. But would ~four times that really be that much different? At least on a personal level, I don't see that happening - other issues (like price, ecosystem, games and so on) will be the deciding factor on what next-gen console I'll pick up.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Hell, even what the base 1.84 is doing on a graphical level (at a native 1080p) is extremely impressive. I have had no urgency to upgrade the base OG model even on my 4K set due to that.
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Shin
Banned
There's a problem with GCN architecture and it being limited to 64 Compute Units, that problem still persists with Navi since it's GCN based.
So you'd end up with 64 CU x 64 shader per unit = 4096 shaders x 1582MHz *2 memory speed = 12.95 TeraFlops
Given that 1582 MHz is really on the high side (with vapor chamber and the gains from 7nm) I'm not sure how feasible it would be.
The gains for Navi over Vega/Polaris isn't factored in so there's that, we don't have much to go on but if AMD did in fact strike a deal with Sony and made Navi for PS5 then...
Leonidas
Member
It will matter more next-gen. 6 to 12 is only a doubling of what the X can produce. You'll need as much power as you can get to differentiate 4K games next-gen than what is currently available on Xbox One X today.
4x vs 3x could make a huge difference depending on if there are other bottlenecks in the system. That's close to the difference this gen. Look at PS4 Pro vs Xbox One X - there is only a 40% flop difference yet Xbox One X games are running 78% more resolution sometimes 2x the resolution or more compared to PS4 Pro.
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geordiemp
Member
Not on consoles I doubt
Do you think Nvidia get more performance per flop than Santa Monica do on Ps4 pro ? I dont.
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LittleBusters
Banned
What about CPU?
Leonidas
Member
What is there to doubt?
nVidia graphics chips are smaller, have higher performance per flop, lower bandwidth requirements, use less power and clock much higher compared to AMD. It's not feasible for AMD to close the gap between nVidia any time soon.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It should be Zen cores, so most definitely a major improvement over what we have now.
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KevinKeene
Banned
Agreed. I think it'll also be sorta trivialized, especially for Japanese games, thanks to the Switch. Even a Switch revision/successor won't be anywhere close these 12/15 tflop devices. But most Japanese games will be made to run on Switch, so it really doesn't matter if there's a bit of a difference between Xbox Two and PS5.
Horsemama1956
Member
He'll throw in the best available hardware from a cost to power threshold.. He doesn't make any hardware guy, he just throws it in a box. He isn't some magic genius.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Relevant for this topic, but Rich Leadbetter is going over this kind of thing in his latest DF video, and mentions how upscaling techniques might help get us that 60 fps mark, or increased fidelity along the way. I've just made a thread on this and ill happily invite you all to discuss it. 
Leonidas
Member
Nvidia is a hardware maker. Santa Monica would get much better performance on mid-range nVidia hardware than they do on PS4 Pro.
I’m not sure how this misleading.
The point is that by and large forcing all games to be 4K capable at just 30fps would take up maybe 80% of any power increases to make a game that looks like the current generation but just in higher res.
To put it another way. 10Tflops is easily possible and makes sense for a next gen console at minimum.
If you instilled a 4K requirement on every game you’re requiring 75/80% of your generation gains to go to increasing the resolution and doing noting to make the game look or feel more “next gen”.
Effectively forcing your games to really have an effective realistic raw power increase of 20/25% over current gen consoles.
So basically the developer is saying is forcing 4K on every game really worth it when you’re brand new console is only effectively marginally better due to artificial requirements of 4K support. And that’s without a 60fps requirement.
For those saying wait until the next gen or skip.
What happens when we have 8k displays and gamers what to set an 8k or 12k minimum resolution. We would effectively be in perpetual stagnation as gamers would demand support for every game to have increased resolution at increasing diminishing returns which would do nothing for the resources available to the game themselves and again this is without a FPS increase.
If you want to go through yet another generation of remastered, be my guest.
rokkerkory
Member
Forza Horizon 4 says hi.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
He also works with the R&D teams to customize the chipsets instructions with the SDKs, etc., for the needs and gains they want. He may not be magic, but it would be disingenuous to say the man is not a higher level of intelligence.
At almost double if not triple the cost since they lack a comparable APU. It would have to be discreet at this piont, and both MS and Sony went down the road of poor luck with nVidia being a partner for power consoles.
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Leonidas
Member
The title is misleading because it's talking about PS4 games only, it's not talking about Xbox games or Switch games. You don't need ~7.2 Tflops to get 4K from any other current gen console other than PS4. Xbox One they only needed ~5.2, for the Wii U/Switch the number would be much lower.
Rumors of PS5 having discrete components like PS3/Xbox 360. Nothing currently known about the next-Xbox.
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Forza Horizon 4 says hi.
Forza is actually a perfect example of the problem.
https://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news...x-cannot-run-in-4k-at-60fps-microsoft-1865938
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinm...e-art-visuals-on-the-xbox-one-x/#29f4888a2569
“When Forza Horizon 3 developer Playground Games first set up the Xbox One version of their game in their new Xbox One X dev kit, they discovered they were left with 75% unused GPU time. They were surprised there was this much headroom. They then rendered the game at a full native 4K resolution (3840 x 2160) and found they still had 25% spare GPU time to work with.”
Please remember XBX is 5x (500%)
more powerful than XBO in GPU resources
Yet only manages to improve visuals by 25% gpu available. Which is again the issue. You’ve got a ton of additional resources and the bulk of them are sucked up doing a straight native 4K resolution. So you begin to ask the question if going 4K was worth it at all. Which is really important when talking about “next generation” games consoles.
LittleBusters
Banned
4K/60fps with high settings should be the target for Nov 2020. No more compromises!
None of that matters, the entire point is the ratio and the amount of resources it drains while leaving little for other improvements to games. The actual specifics of it don’t matter beyond highlight the fact that if you made your next console 5x more powerful than your previous console you’re spending 4x of that resource budget on making it run native 4K. Effectively making your “nextgen” console the equivalent of an iPhone refresh.
The Xbox one x is 5x more powerful than the XBO and can’t even play the same game at 4K/60fps. If that’s what you want then you’re effectively going to be playing last gen games on a shiny new next gen console.
Leonidas
Member
I've been saying for a while that the next-gen consoles won't be much of a jump in graphics compared to the X, but that doesn't change the fact that the 7.4 Tflop number is for PS4 only.
How is it an issue when that is what Xbox One X was designed to do? It's running games in 4K with higher detail.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Even if that rumor is true, nVidia cost vs. AMD is a world of difference (being already locked into roadmap R&D directly), especially how both Sony and MS felt they were burned last time. But hey, it is business, and things change short term sometimes. We will all find out I suppose.
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LittleBusters
Banned
One thing I can say, Microsoft will never allow Sony to release a more powerful console again.
Because when it comes time to release a new console and people aren’t playing on 4K TVs they’re going to wonder why they upgraded to a $400 console in the first place. You’re going to have multiplat games for much longer if not indefinitely and you’ll never get a game that takes “full” advantage of the hardware again even for console exclusives.
Again demanding a 4K standard changes the entire scope of the gaming business model. Not that I’m even opposed to it but it’s something most gamers don’t want.
LittleBusters
Banned
Native 4K/60fps/HDR10 and high settings will be the new standard in 2020 like it or not.
And that’s fine, just get used to previous gen remasters and Skyrim remakes.
A theorical 4K/60fps/HDR10 game could potentially look worse than a PS4 game in terms of other graphical effects.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Give me 1440p 120hz with all the bells and whistles on over 4k 60hz.
That sound like some crazy thing that onq123 would say oh wait
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps4-neo-presentation-might-have-leaked.1246596/page-34#post-210446334
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps4-neo-presentation-might-have-leaked.1246596/page-34#post-210446334
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That sound like some crazy thing that onq123 would say oh wait
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps4-neo-presentation-might-have-leaked.1246596/page-34#post-210446334
I remember this! I also remeber all the riducule you would get, and end up... being in the same ballpark, even sitting next to the outcome on the bench in the same dugout (case in point here).
Good times!
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AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
Those games were designed for a 1.3TF console? Nothing is black and white, some games are easier and have more headroom than others. Some are also better optimized.
When my avatar was showing I could say the sky is blue & the whole forum would try to fight me lol they really didn't think I should know all this stuff just because they didn't.
Leonidas
Member
No console manufacturer will demand that all console games run at a certain native resolution. Checkerboard rendering and other up-scaling techniques won't disappear.
One would hope that BC would take care of that at this point...
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
For real lol.
On a side note, I hope you are a full member and that is just a leftover title from the old forum shenanigans.
That is a given. As well as more bandwidth with at least GDDR5X (with GDDR6 possible).
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Tarkus98
Member
Vindication!!! Must feel good my friend. Keep staying out in front of this stuff. Your insight is always a welcome read. At least to me it is.That sound like some crazy thing that onq123 would say oh wait
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps4-neo-presentation-might-have-leaked.1246596/page-34#post-210446334
Nope still a Jr for talking about 4K gaming coming in this generation lol
Ar¢tos
Member
Probably because the game it is running in 4k was designed to run with the limitations of the base X1.
When games are designed specifically for the ps5/x2, they will need more power to achieve 4k (since they will have better visuals, better /more effects, etc).
Wait what? That’s literally what happened this generation. You’ve got a handful of PS4 games at 900P at most but almost every PS4 game is 1080P.
And no console manufacturers is going to dictate that, the point I’m making are the guys calling for 4K/60fps standard requires at least 8-10x more power before we even get into making more advance visual effects. But yes games should be BC I was just saying that to emphasize implementing a standard like the above just give use around the same current hardware resources to work with at higher res and frame rate.
McHuj
Member
I’m hoping that gets addressed with Navi because realistically a couple of CU’s will end up being disabled for improved yields.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I expect new consoles to essentialy be as powerful as "2 Xbox One Xs duct-taped together" with 7nm Ryzen/Navi(whatever is 2019/2020 on AMD's roadmap).
I feel we're reaching the point of diminishing returns for resolution increase. There will be a bigger focus on 60fps framerate next gen, but dynamic physics and movement in everything is going to be the "big thing" next gen. The games world is thirsty for substantially more CPU power.
Phil Spencer seemed to hint at need for better CPU/GPU balance, "I think frame rate is an area where consoles can do more, just in general. When you look at the balance between CPU and GPU in today’s consoles, it’s a little bit out of whack relative to what’s on the PC side."
Ghosts of Tsushima developer Sucker Punch is already pushing towards that this gen saying, "Having everything move, if it can move make it move, was a very ambitious goal for us from the very beginning. and we’re achieving it! you walk around the game world and you’ll be like ‘Oh my god, everything around me is moving!"
I feel we're reaching the point of diminishing returns for resolution increase. There will be a bigger focus on 60fps framerate next gen, but dynamic physics and movement in everything is going to be the "big thing" next gen. The games world is thirsty for substantially more CPU power.
Phil Spencer seemed to hint at need for better CPU/GPU balance, "I think frame rate is an area where consoles can do more, just in general. When you look at the balance between CPU and GPU in today’s consoles, it’s a little bit out of whack relative to what’s on the PC side."
Ghosts of Tsushima developer Sucker Punch is already pushing towards that this gen saying, "Having everything move, if it can move make it move, was a very ambitious goal for us from the very beginning. and we’re achieving it! you walk around the game world and you’ll be like ‘Oh my god, everything around me is moving!"