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NDA lifted, full AMD Kaveri reviews

tipoo

Banned
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7677/amd-kaveri-review-a8-7600-a10-7850k

http://techreport.com/review/25908/amd-a8-7600-kaveri-processor-reviewed


Kaveri ain't just a river in India.

Wait, that doesn't work.

die-shot.jpg



Ian and Rahul from Anandtech conclude

As with all previous AMD APU launches, we're going to have to break this one down into three parts: CPU, the promise of HSA and GPU.

In a vacuum where all that's available are other AMD parts, Kaveri and its Steamroller cores actually look pretty good. At identical frequencies there's a healthy increase in IPC, and AMD has worked very hard to move its Bulldozer family down to a substantially lower TDP. While Trinity/Richland were happy shipping at 100W, Kaveri is clearly optimized for a much more modern TDP. Performance gains at lower TDPs (45/65W) are significant. In nearly all of our GPU tests, a 45W Kaveri ends up delivering very similar gaming performance to a 100W Richland. The mainstream desktop market has clearly moved to smaller form factors and it's very important that AMD move there as well. Kaveri does just that.

In the broader sense however, Kaveri doesn't really change the CPU story for AMD. Steamroller comes with a good increase in IPC, but without a corresponding increase in frequency AMD fails to move the single threaded CPU performance needle. To make matters worse, Intel's dual-core Haswell parts are priced very aggressively and actually match Kaveri's CPU clocks. With a substantial advantage in IPC and shipping at similar frequencies, a dual-core Core i3 Haswell will deliver much better CPU performance than even the fastest Kaveri at a lower price.

The reality is quite clear by now: AMD isn't going to solve its CPU performance issues with anything from the Bulldozer family. What we need is a replacement architecture, one that I suspect we'll get after Excavator concludes the line in 2015.

In the past AMD has argued that for the majority of users, the CPU performance it delivers today is good enough. While true, it's a dangerous argument to make (one that eventually ends up with you recommending an iPad or Nexus 7). I have to applaud AMD's PR this time around as no one tried to make the argument that CPU performance was somehow irrelevant. Although we tend to keep PR critique off of AnandTech, the fact of the matter is that for every previous APU launch AMD tried its best to convince the press that the problem wasn't with its CPU performance but rather with how we benchmark. With Kaveri, the arguments more or less stopped. AMD has accepted its CPU performance is what it is and seems content to ride this one out. It's a tough position to be in, but it's really the only course of action until Bulldozer goes away.

It's a shame that the CPU story is what it is, because Kaveri finally delivers on the promise of the ATI acquisition from 2006. AMD has finally put forth a truly integrated APU/SoC, treating both CPU and GPU as first class citizens and allowing developers to harness both processors, cooperatively, to work on solving difficult problems and enabling new experiences. In tests where both the CPU and GPU are used, Kaveri looks great as this is exactly the promise of HSA. The clock starts now. It'll still be a matter of years before we see widespread adoption of heterogeneous programming and software, but we finally have the necessary hardware and priced at below $200.



Until then, outside of specific applications and GPU compute workloads, the killer app for Kaveri remains gaming. Here the story really isn't very different than it was with Trinity and Richland. With Haswell Intel went soft on (socketed) desktop graphics, and Kaveri continues to prey on that weakness. If you are building an entry level desktop PC where gaming is a focus, there really isn't a better option. I do wonder how AMD will address memory bandwidth requirements going forward. A dual-channel DDR3 memory interface works surprisingly well for Kaveri. We still see 10 - 30% GPU performance increases over Richland despite not having any increase in memory bandwidth. It's clear that AMD will have to look at something more exotic going forward though.

For casual gaming, AMD is hitting the nail square on the head in its quest for 1080p gaming at 30 frames per second, albeit generally at lower quality settings. There are still a few titles that are starting to stretch the legs of a decent APU (Company of Heroes is practically brutal), but it all comes down to perspective. Let me introduce you to my Granddad. He’s an ex-aerospace engineer, and likes fiddling with stuff. He got onboard the ‘build-your-own’ PC train in about 2002 and stopped there – show him a processor more than a Pentium 4 and he’ll shrug it off as something new-fangled. My grandfather has one amazing geeky quality that shines through though – he has played and completed every Tomb Raider game on the PC he can get his hands on.

It all came to a head this holiday season when he was playing the latest Tomb Raider game. He was running the game on a Pentium D with an NVIDIA 7200GT graphics card. His reactions are not the sharpest, and he did not seem to mind running at sub-5 FPS at a 640x480 resolution. I can imagine many of our readers recoiling at the thought of playing a modern game at 480p with 5 FPS. In the true spirit of the season, I sent him a HD 6750, an identical model to the one in the review today. Despite some issues he had finding drivers (his Google-fu needs a refresher), he loves his new card and can now play reasonably well at 1280x1024 on his old monitor.

The point I am making with this heart-warming/wrenching family story is that the Kaveri APU is probably the ideal fit for what he needs. Strap him up with an A8-7600 and away he goes. It will be faster than anything he has used before, it will play his games as well as that new HD 6750, and when my grandmother wants to surf the web or edit some older images, she will not have to wait around for them to happen. It should all come in with a budget they would like as well.
 

tipoo

Banned
Kaveri also means "buddy" in Finnish.

I made a very useful and necessary reply.

True, but I think this round of AMD codenames has a lot to do with Indian stuff, and I think they've used rivers before. Sounds more likely than a random word like "buddy".
 

bro1

Banned
From Anand:
"In the broader sense however, Kaveri doesn't really change the CPU story for AMD. Steamroller comes with a good increase in IPC, but without a corresponding increase in frequency AMD fails to move the single threaded CPU performance needle. To make matters worse, Intel's dual-core Haswell parts are priced very aggressively and actually match Kaveri's CPU clocks. With a substantial advantage in IPC and shipping at similar frequencies, a dual-core Core i3 Haswell will deliver much better CPU performance than even the fastest Kaveri at a lower price."

If you are building a gaming desktop PC, stick with Intel for the time being. Man, I was hoping for this to be a 2500XP all over again. Guess not.
 

Geedorah

Member
Kaveri also means "buddy" in Finnish.

I made a very useful and necessary reply.

I'm not your buddy, guy....


But seriously - I can't wait to build something with this. Thinking a light, small, low power Plex server for transcode. Mmmm. Really itching to find something with a low enough heat profile such that I could run it 24/7/365 without issues or my electric bill taking a beating.
 

tipoo

Banned
I'm thinking this could be nice in a cheap Steam Box, rather than going the other way with Intel with a stronger CPU and weaker graphics, or much higher cost for Iris Pro graphics.
 

artist

Banned
HSA ..

In the software-only test, Intel outperforms AMD by 2:1 against the old Richland core and a still-sizeable 60% against the A10-7850K. In OpenCL we see Intel’s performance crater, while Kaveri dives to nearly Intel’s CPU-only speed. With HSA enabled, however, performance skyrockets — AMD’s A10-7850K is more than 5x faster than the Core i5-4670. This, more than any other result, points to the potential of HSA, but we have little visibility into how accessible these performance gains will be in a suite of applications.

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-wait-for-the-first-true-heterogeneous-chip/5
 
So what does this mean for a system with a dedicated GPU? In that scenario, is there any advantage that this CPU/GPU marriage brings to current generation and near-future generation games?
 

Tablo

Member
It's stupid to compare them for graphics potential anyways, if you just look at die area dedicated to graphics and the fact that the 4670 isn't trying to have class leading GPU performance...
Remove the CPU overhead, run an optimized HSA/Mantle thing, and of course the 7850K will win lol
 
Tech Report review!!!!! Get in!!!!!!!!!

In the broader sense however, Kaveri doesn't really change the CPU story for AMD. Steamroller comes with a good increase in IPC, but without a corresponding increase in frequency AMD fails to move the single threaded CPU performance needle. To make matters worse, Intel's dual-core Haswell parts are priced very aggressively and actually match Kaveri's CPU clocks. With a substantial advantage in IPC and shipping at similar frequencies, a dual-core Core i3 Haswell will deliver much better CPU performance than even the fastest Kaveri at a lower price.

The reality is quite clear by now: AMD isn't going to solve its CPU performance issues with anything from the Bulldozer family. What we need is a replacement architecture, one that I suspect we'll get after Excavator concludes the line in 2015.

This quote from AnandTech sums up it's relevance to most PC gamers on NeoGAF. The CPU performance is distinctly average, and with the iGPU likely going to waste this seems to cater to a very different market than most mid to high end CPUs.

How many people are going to stump $200 for a CPU without getting a dedicated GPU? There are likely two categories: 1) people buying >$150 CPUs along with dedicated GPUs, and 2) people buying CPUs at <$150 and not getting a dedicated GPU. I don't see too many spending over $150 and not getting a dedicated card.
 

QaaQer

Member
Tech Report review!!!!! Get in!!!!!!!!!



This quote from AnandTech sums up it's relevance to most PC gamers on NeoGAF. The CPU performance is distinctly average, and with the iGPU likely going to waste this seems to cater to a very different market than most mid to high end CPUs.

How many people are going to stump $200 for a CPU without getting a dedicated GPU? There are likely two categories: 1) people buying >$150 CPUs along with dedicated GPUs, and 2) people buying CPUs at <$150 and not getting a dedicated GPU. I don't see too many spending over $150 and not getting a dedicated card.

htpc.
 

louiedog

Member

Exactly. That's why I want one.

My current HTPC for DVR/XBMC use is just old components that I had lying around (MPEG2 decoding takes remarkably little effort for even 6-year-old hardware) and I've been eyeing an AMD APU for an upgrade. It'll be a cool, quiet, lower energy solution for my living room.

HTPC functions? No problem
Most indie games, even upcoming ones? No problem
A solid chunk of my Steam library? No problem

For everything else there's streaming. I'm looking forward to seeing how that shakes out as it seems the beta is coming soon.
 

joshschw

Member
Tech Report review!!!!! Get in!!!!!!!!!



This quote from AnandTech sums up it's relevance to most PC gamers on NeoGAF. The CPU performance is distinctly average, and with the iGPU likely going to waste this seems to cater to a very different market than most mid to high end CPUs.

How many people are going to stump $200 for a CPU without getting a dedicated GPU? There are likely two categories: 1) people buying >$150 CPUs along with dedicated GPUs, and 2) people buying CPUs at <$150 and not getting a dedicated GPU. I don't see too many spending over $150 and not getting a dedicated card.

First, I doubt the highest end chip will cost $200, more like $149 probably. Yes, right now it's $189 on Newegg, but I think it will drop soon.

There's plenty of a market for these - If they work well enough obviously. If I could play any game at medium settings with just a $150 chip? Yeah, count me in.


The real benefit is the cheaper and lower end ones anyway. They work brilliantly for day to day tasks and function much better than the similar priced Intel chips. I only use AMD APU's in my run of the mill system builds for clients.
 

Durante

Member
This quote from AnandTech sums up it's relevance to most PC gamers on NeoGAF. The CPU performance is distinctly average, and with the iGPU likely going to waste this seems to cater to a very different market than most mid to high end CPUs.
This quote from TR sums up what I think whenever I read about APUs:
Techreport said:
We've seen this dynamic with previous APUs, and it's always made for a tough sell on the desktop. Gamers who actually care about graphics performance are better off with discrete video cards that deliver better visuals and smoother frame delivery, while those who don't care about gaming are better served by Intel chips with higher per-thread performance and lower power consumption (which typically leads to lower noise levels.) APUs occupy this awkward middle ground for so-called casual gamers who want something better than an Intel IGP but not as good as a halfway-decent graphics card. As Jerry Seinfeld would say, "who are these people?" Seriously, I've never met one.
Maybe Steam Machines can actually create this market, but then AMD first needs fast OpenGL / Linux drivers.
 

artist

Banned
This quote from TR sums up what I think whenever I read about APUs:

Maybe Steam Machines can actually create this market, but then AMD first needs fast OpenGL / Linux drivers.
Who are these people?

Apparently 1/3 of current steam users;
ANANDTECH said:
AMD makes some rather interesting claims when it comes to the gaming market GPU performance – as shown in the slide above, ‘approximately 1/3 of all Steam gamers use slower graphics than the A10-7850K
 

z0m3le

Banned
This quote from TR sums up what I think whenever I read about APUs:

Maybe Steam Machines can actually create this market, but then AMD first needs fast OpenGL / Linux drivers.
HTPCs make the most sense with this product, the 7600k at 45watts that anandtech reviews is only $120 on their chart and should work decently for steam machines running Windows today, the streaming feature down the road will allow gamers to beam their high performance rigs to the living room while avoiding bringing more than a whisper (if that) to their ambient noise level.

When these finally get DDR4 or maybe embedded ram like iris, the comparison you make will make more sense, currently it should play modern games and older games well, an emulation box is a beautiful thing too. So to me, matching the Richland 6800k 100watt part at less than half that tdp, is a big deal.
 

rav

Member
Wow, I want to build my own Steambox with one of these.
Hopefully someone will make a mini-micro-atx board with just ram and cpu slots, onboard gigabit, sata controller, usb and 5.1 audio with mini displayport out and hdmi out.

Think a tiny case thats fanless, with an ssd and anything it can't play on it I could stream from my big PC.
This is the HTPC chip I've been waiting for.
 
This quote from TR sums up what I think whenever I read about APUs:

Maybe Steam Machines can actually create this market, but then AMD first needs fast OpenGL / Linux drivers.

Haha, that quote is a lot better than the one I picked out. Evidently, based on this thread anyway, people want APUs for their HTPCs. I personally would still prefer the almost equally priced i3-4130 ($120) + HD 7750 ($80) which provides much better performance. Battlefield 4, for example, would be 40-50FPS at high rather than 30FPS at medium.
 
This quote from TR sums up what I think whenever I read about APUs:

Maybe Steam Machines can actually create this market, but then AMD first needs fast OpenGL / Linux drivers.

Seriously, that quote from the Tech Report sums things up perfectly. AMD are screwed unless they offer these dirt cheap or the HSA bet pays off in the next year.
 

z0m3le

Banned
Haha, that quote is a lot better than the one I picked out. Evidently, based on this thread anyway, people want APUs for their HTPCs. I personally would still prefer the almost equally priced i3-4130 ($120) + HD 7750 ($80) which provides much better performance. Battlefield 4, for example, would be 40-50FPS at high rather than 30FPS at medium.

Thanks to hybrid cross fire, taking a r7 get with the 7600k would yield better results for games that aren't cpu bound. Really even those would be close as the guy performance should be that much better, but that is just running the flops numbers.
 
This quote from TR sums up what I think whenever I read about APUs:

Maybe Steam Machines can actually create this market, but then AMD first needs fast OpenGL / Linux drivers.

It would be neat to have one of these for making a tiny htpc that's able to also play some indie games. I guess intel chips also serve this purpose but these are better price/performance.

Weren't they rumoured to be working on one of these with a GDDR5 controller? That could make for an interesting steam machine.
 

Kysen

Member
AMD CPU team are a weak link. How many years do they have to be dragging their feet behind Intel. Low power devices in the desktop space is a complete waste of time.
 
I agree with the quote "Who are these people" It's a weird niche market, especially if the price remains around $180 for the higher end APU.
 

z0m3le

Banned
I agree with the quote "Who are these people" It's a weird niche market, especially if the price remains around $180 for the higher end APU.
A 95watt apu isn't really the same type of product as the 45watt, you can build fanless and small, also at $120, that is a great price that will likely dip even lower after the initial wave as all amd products tend to do at the low end
 

KKRT00

Member

Those tests do not make favor for HSA.

The only test it is faster is one with big data driven application, which we knew for months it will.
In more, pure force related tasks it adds almost nothing.

---
Still it would be nice if HSA actually made compute useful for many CPU only related tasks in future. CUDA was nice, but very underutilized and many times came with very bugged implementation, but treating GPU as CPU cores in HSA enabled apps should fix this.
 
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