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[Dreavus]

I think you are projecting copious amount of rage and frustration into the most inappropriate context and towards the most inappropriate targets.

I am not denying that what you describe is and will always be shallow, irritating, limiting and, as a general tendency in certain entertainment subcultures, may constitute a source of very justified concern. I for one am not sexist at all, never been, never will become such. So please, first of all, refrain from ascribing myself (as well as many others that have disagreed with your opinions) to a category of belligerent males who want to preserve the status quo of their implied dominance. That is just as irritating as the injustice you claim to be battling for.

In this specific case I feel such forms of indignation are improper and seem overly malicious. No one knows how contingent and how contextual that kidnapping scene shall end up being. No one has any certainty right now on the exact role and dimension that scene will entail in the whole presentation of the game. Besides, let me state it another time perhaps more clearly, this is a very simple game whose narrative is just a pretext to gameplay, in typical Nintendo style.

Therefore, provided that in general I would concur with every smallest strain of battle for gender equality, why don't we try to be a little more cautious and objective with our campaigns, without resorting to these explosions of anger and claims of social injustice even when such things are evidently uncalled for?

I am a man, and my first reaction was "not this shit again", too. It gets very tiring seeing the same pervasive imagery all the time, doesn't it? It absolutely comes across as a Damsel in Distress situation regardless of whether Toadette "grabbed the star" or not, and there's nothing wrong with expecting better.

I'm afraid I don't see the same explosion of anger, or a "battle for gender equality", just some people expressing their disappointment at yet another game making use of the same brain dead story set-up that could have been more interesting to start with. Being a gameplay-focused Nintendo game doesn't really have anything to do with it, and it shouldn't be given an automatic free pass by everybody for that reason.

You are correct that this outlook could change depending on how things are resolved in the game, but with what we have so far, there's nothing wrong with expressing disappointment at how the story is set-up IMO.

 

[jnWake]

This controversy is so silly. If instead of Toadette we had some random male Toad (as if the gender of Toads is relevant) who had to be saved, the scene would be the same. Toadette isn't being "kidnapped" because she's a girl, it's just that the developers wanted to have you unlock the second character for some reason.

 

[KingSnake]

I hope Nintendo still has time to take Toadette out of the game to avoid this whole controversy.

 

[plank]

Posting screens from another thread.

 

[skLaFarebear]

I hope Nintendo still has time to take Toadette out of the game to avoid this whole controversy.

Hell no! Toadette is awesome. Having her in the game definitely makes me want to play it even more. This game is gonna be great

 

[zroid]

Posting screens from another thread.

hnnnngh

 

[KingSnake]

Hell no! Toadette is awesome. Having her in the game definitely makes me want to play it even more. This game is gonna be great

Yeah, I know, but don't you see, if she doesn't have a heroic role she doesn't deserve a role in a game. She must be super woman or nothing.

 

[Tuck]

Posting screens from another thread.

Oh.

My.

God.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

But will the best Toad, Toadsworth, be playable?

The people want to know

 

[Popnbake]

But they clearly aren't using the damsel in distress trope. Any distress Toadette is in is that of a hero fighting a battle. She gets taken away only because she is attempting to fight the enemy and when you catch up with her she's still fighting the enemy. It's like showing up to the dragon's lair and finding a female knight already battling the dragon. In seems similar to SMG where you have to play a few levels before you unlock Luigi because he goes on ahead of Mario. We don't even know if Toadette has special abilities or not.



But it is seen. All evidence from the game itself contradicts that statement as an accurate representation of what happens. That line certainly sounds like it describes damsel in distress but that's not the picture painted by the game. You can get someone back without them needing rescue.

Toadette's taken away because she grabbed the star and when you catch up to her (from the screens):

Posting screens from another thread.

she's still grabbing the star.

Will she assist in the fight later? No clue.

However as Captain Toad, you are fighting the bird to get her and the star back.

 

[blu]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to start anything, really. I can't help but feel that way. It's just really tiring; as a girl it feels like I always just get a few bones thrown my way regarding cool protagonists sharing my gender, and how often they get whisked away is just...well, it makes me feel like shit. Golden Sun did it with Mia, and Pikmin 3 did it with Brittany. I know that technically Toadette wasn't kidnapped, but i feel like that's just semantics- it's obvious that "the girl" is getting taken away by the big scary boss to be obtained later on, and I just can't help but feel...well, I'd really appreciate if Nintendo would cut that out. Just, all my life, seeing that trope reiterated in every game is really discouraging. It makes me feel like I don't belong, and I hate that feeling.

I wanna be the hero, not the damsel in distress, is all I'm saying. I still think the game is freaking awesome and of course I wanna get it. I'm not going to tell anyone else they shouldn't enjoy it or whatever.

I don't wanna start a big debate or anything, it's just my feelings when I read that.

EDIT: I could also be totally wrong and Toadette actually beats up that crow/escapes herself and then sets off on her own journey or something like that, in which case I'll happily eat crow (no pun intended.)

I understand your point, but I think your concerns seem a bit premature. From what we've seen from the footage, Toadette is as capable and as courageous a character as Toad is. Of course, we could assume that she might later on get cornered, locked up and left to Toad's mercy, for all we know, but that is not what we have seen in the trailer. Actually, of the two characters' opening scene, Toadette is the clearly braver one, grabbing on the star against all odds of getting carried away by a monster bird. By contrast, Toad is just an indecisive guy/slow thinker, who fails to timely followed her (by grabbing on the star himself, or on Toadette, etc). So I don't see anything to be offended by as somebody who sympathizes with Toadette.

The one thing that could actually annoy me slightly, in my case, would be if I would have to first beat the game once before being allowed to play as Toadette. But I think I'll persevere, as I intend to play through this game multiple times ; )

Posting screens from another thread.

Halp. I'm experiencing a severe case of screen-licking urge.

 

[Smashman45]

Posting screens from another thread.

Lookin' gorgeous. Unsurprisingly, the levels look much larger (the donut lifts stage in particular), and more involved, I'm also loving that pinball-esque stage. Anxious to tackle these.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Those screens...

This game just looks so charming and fun.

I mean, I'm not in absolute LOVE with the gameplay in SM3DW's Captain Toad stages but the actual Captain Toad game looks like a must-play regardless.

 

[Prax]

This controversy is so silly. If instead of Toadette we had some random male Toad (as if the gender of Toads is relevant) who had to be saved, the scene would be the same. Toadette isn't being "kidnapped" because she's a girl, it's just that the developers wanted to have you unlock the second character for some reason.

Well it's probably because that particular imagery is not overdone to the point that male characters are locked away from availability. It's annoying. And disappointing.

As for people crankily whining about "well they should just remove all females so no one can complain about the representation so there would be none!".. just stop.
Realistically, that would create a greater controversy because you show something but take it away as "punishment" or because you're being a tease with false promises.
On the flip side as just a snarky remark: rude.

Just because a certain aspect of the game is being critiqued doesn't mean the entire game is being trashed or whatever political sensibilities you have are being subject to some onslaught.

I hope the game is successful and becomes kind of a new series of its own. Maybe even have Toad Brigade team members branch out into multiple types of puzzle genres! That would be pretty cool.

 

[Karkador]

Looks damsel'd to me

 

[EulaCapra]

Ugh. So many color options wasted on one-off appearances. Bring me orange Toadette!

 

[evilromero]

I'm glad this game is coming out. It gives me my 3D Mario fix, even if somewhat diluted.

 

[Aces&Eights]

This is literally the most adorable game I've ever seen. I'm a grown man and I just want to grab Toad and pinch his puffy cheeks. That underwater part where he holds his breath just kills me. It's like a game made of puppies all trying to lick your face and puppy breath everywhere.

 

[skLaFarebear]

Yeah, I know, but don't you see, if she doesn't have a heroic role she doesn't deserve a role in a game. She must be super woman or nothing.

Oh yeah, you're totally right. Nintendo should just cancel the game until this is fixed. I know I'm canceling my preorder.

 

[Dreavus]

Yeah, I know, but don't you see, if she doesn't have a heroic role she doesn't deserve a role in a game. She must be super woman or nothing.

No one said that and no one is asking for that.

 

[Sify64]

Looks damsel'd to me

Or maybe she could let go of that star...
It's not like Toadette is locked in a cage.
She would likely fall to her death, though.

 

[KingSnake]

No one said that and no one is asking for that.

What are you asking for?

 

[evilromero]

No one said that and no one is asking for that.

Just curious, but is the trope of rescuing the princess/female character now an off-limit option for Nintendo games? I agree it would have been easy enough to have Todette just meet up with Toad and join forces but I suppose Nintendo decided to go in this direction (rescue). At what point is the storyteller beholden to social responsibility versus just doing what they want?

Edit: My god those screens look amazing. I didn't realize just how much variety was in the game. It's got me much more interested than 3D World ever did.

 

[wildfire]

This controversy is so silly. If instead of Toadette we had some random male Toad (as if the gender of Toads is relevant) who had to be saved, the scene would be the same. Toadette isn't being "kidnapped" because she's a girl, it's just that the developers wanted to have you unlock the second character for some reason.

I see this thread discussion as silly because I don't see Toadette as a damsel but let's ignore that perspective. Typically female characters are used as damsels. Your argument that people wouldn't be complaining if it was male character is myopic.

Ever hear a joke overused that it becomes tiresome? The damsel trope with female characters is just like an overused joke but the difference is that it has more subtle consequences such as informing on what the roles of men and women should be.

 

[KingSnake]

Just curious, but is the trope of rescuing the princess/female character now an off-limit option for Nintendo games? I agree it would have been easy enough to just have Todette just meet up with Toad and join forces but I suppose Nintendo decided to go in this direction (rescue). At what point is the storyteller beholden to social responsibility versus just doing what they want?

A story of a puzzle-platformer game. The kind of games that are known for their very well written stories. Like I'm sure Toad will have some life-changing decision to make during the game. What if Toadette is really in danger and Toad have to save her? Then what? Everyone should boycott the game? Should Toad just not save her and instead go on a beach with the Goombas? Should Toadette refuse to be saved and die in prison for her cause?

 

[Karkador]

What are you asking for?

Nintendo to kick their annoying old habits, which is actually what a lot of people ask of Nintendo, for various reasons.

 

[Shiggy]

Looks damsel'd to me

So beautiful. Probably the first time I'm really impressed and interested in a game this generation. I wasn't too interested after the E3 unveil but it sounds and looks fun (and lovely).

 

[pinkurocket]

Of all games, I wasn't expecting Captain Toad to spark a discussion on sexism and damsels in distress.
If they made this same game with Toadette as a main character, I bet people would complain about her not being able to jump with a backpack on because she's a "weak girl" ...

 

[Sify64]

Of all games, I wasn't expecting Captain Toad to spark a discussion on sexism and damsels in distress.

.

 

[KingSnake]

Nintendo to kick their annoying old habits, which is actually what a lot of people ask of Nintendo, for various reasons.

How many games published by Nintendo in the past months have playable woman characters? How many of them are "damsel in distress" (god, I hate this sentence)? How are they standing in this area compared to other producers?

 

[Cosmozone]

Oh my, this is just cuteness overload. And the backgrounds look gorgeous, too. It'll be hard to resist getting this day one. Very hard.

 

[Karkador]

How many games published by Nintendo in the past months have playable woman characters? How many of them are "damsel in distress" (god, I hate this sentence)? How are they standing in this area compared to other producers?

I said "annoying old habits". Making some progress with the games this year doesn't really change that they're regressing with this one.

If they made this same game with Toadette as a main character, I bet people would complain about her not being able to jump with a backpack on because she's a "weak girl" ...

As far as the game has been explained, neither of them can jump because of the backpacks.

 

[blu]

Nintendo to kick their annoying old habits, which is actually what a lot of people ask of Nintendo, for various reasons.

For the record, I'm of the people who ask Nintendo stick to their old habits and bring Metroid Prime back.

 

[KingSnake]

I said "annoying old habits". Making some progress with the games this year doesn't really change that they're regressing with this one.

So this is a forbidden story line now? You can have no matter how many games with strong women but if you have one in which a woman is weak (and we don't even know how strong is Toadette and Toad is a non-hero, but let's assume the worse) it's a regress? Should be just one type of stories?

 

[Gonzo The Great]

I said "annoying old habits". Making some progress with the games this year doesn't really change that they're regressing with this one.

Toadette is a playable character. It was her choice to grab onto the star and pursue the giant bird. Why the hell are people complaining?

 

[evilromero]

For the record, I'm of the people who ask Nintendo stick to their old habits and bring Metroid Prime back.

In that case, bring Mario 64-style Mario back!

 

[DizzyCrow]

The yellow ruined the boxart.

 

[Neiteio]

I already love this Wingo character.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

The yellow ruined the boxart.

It doesn't ruin it but the old box was better.

 

[Phil S.]

I think it's admirable that folks are tired of the "damsel in distress" plots of games, but I also think that folks need to pick their battles. For an innocent game like Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker that isn't trying to make a political/social commentary, when one starts using games like this for debates about gender equality and such, it lessens the impact for other examples. If every game is going to get picked on (maybe a poor choice of words, so I apologize ahead of time just in case), the arguments start to become noise and easy to be ignored.

Anyway, I looked at the newer box art (I think it was posted). I don't like the yellow background at all and I prefer the blue sky of the older one.

 

[pinkurocket]

As far as the game has been explained, neither of them can jump because of the backpacks.

Well this is considering Cpt. Toad wouldn't be part of the gameplay, but just Toadette. Like how some criticized Super Princess Peach for relying too much on emotions and being stereotypically girly and therefore sexist. :I

 

[Karkador]

So this a forbidden story line now? You can have no matter how many games with strong women but if you have one in which a woman is weak (and we don't even know how strong is Toadette and Toad is a non-hero, but let's assume the worse) it's a regress? Should be just one type of stories?

It has nothing to do with "forbidden storylines". People are just tired of Nintendo (and other game devs) doing the same old formula with their characters.

Personally, I'm still going to play this game, and I still think it looks great. But the "Toadette gets whisked away" angle seems completely stale and unnecessary. It's not a wholesale condemnation of the game. It's a point of irritation, as it will be if I have to play most of the game just to unlock this character (like if I wanted to play Luigi in Mario Galaxy).

I think it's admirable that folks are tired of the "damsel in distress" plots of games, but I also think that folks need to pick their battles. For an innocent game like Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker that isn't trying to make a political/social commentary, when one starts using games like this for debates about gender equality and such, it lessens the impact for other examples.

I would wager that no one is claiming Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker to be standing on a soapbox, making hurtful and wrong commentary about society. Yes, the game is just a cute puzzle platformer type of thing. Some people saw the wording of the press release, and the way the trailer sets up the premise of not-being-able-to-play-as-Toadette-right-away, as dumb and Nintendo being regressive.

The arguments only really gain heat when people come in to say "no, you can't make that criticism", "you're blowing up over nothing". That's where the noise really comes from, IMO, because it really adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[zhorkat]

Toadette is a playable character. It was her choice to grab onto the star and pursue the giant bird. Why the hell are people complaining?

Im going to guess that it involves Toadette being a fictional character that can't actually make choices for herself.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

So this is a forbidden story line now? You can have no matter how many games with strong women but if you have one in which a woman is weak (and we don't even know how strong is Toadette and Toad is a non-hero, but let's assume the worse) it's a regress? Should be just one type of stories?

In an ideal world, men and women would be equally victimized, menaced, abused and kidnapped to motivate the protagonists. It clearly favors one gender over the other.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Nintendo, for the love of all things good, make a Mario RPG or Earthbound game that looks like this

 

[Tuck]

The yellow ruined the boxart.

Please tell me thats not the boxart.

That looks terrible. The game is so beautiful, thats the best they could do?

EDIT: original box art so much better.

 

[Dreavus]

What are you asking for?

I've already posted my opinion. I wouldn't mind them trying something different in terms of story instead of locking into the same old checklist. This is regardless of the scope of the game's story or whether it's a puzzle platformer or what have you. I don't think it's wrong to expect more than to bog standard "female is in trouble".

I'm trying to figure out your angle here. Why all the sarcastic posts?

Just curious, but is the trope of rescuing the princess/female character now an off-limit option for Nintendo games? I agree it would have been easy enough to have Todette just meet up with Toad and join forces but I suppose Nintendo decided to go in this direction (rescue). At what point is the storyteller beholden to social responsibility versus just doing what they want?

Edit: My god those screens look amazing. I didn't realize just how much variety was in the game. It's got me much more interested than 3D World ever did.

It would certainly be more interesting to me if they veered away from that, yes. As for the second point I don't know, but my guess is it's less about them "doing what they want" and more about them defaulting to an "easy" or "standard" story, which I think could very easily be more interesting than that.

It has nothing to do with "forbidden storylines". People are just tired of Nintendo (and other game devs) doing the same old formula with their characters.

Personally, I'm still going to play this game, and I still think it looks great. But the "Toadette gets whisked away" angle seems completely stale and unnecessary. It's not a wholesale condemnation of the game. It's a point of irritation, as it will be if I have to play most of the game just to unlock this character (like if I wanted to play Luigi in Mario Galaxy).

Yes, I agree. This isn't going to prevent me from playing the game, but I think it's not wrong to expect more/better from Nintendo. And why shouldn't we, really?

 

[jnWake]

I see this thread discussion as silly because I don't see Toadette as a damsel but let's ignore that perspective. Typically female characters are used as damsels. Your argument that people wouldn't be complaining if it was male character is myopic.

I'd like you to read my post again. I never said people wouldn't complain in a male character was "kidnapped" (even though they wouldn't).

I said that I don't see this as "sexist" because the female part of Toadette doesn't play a role in the game. Toadette could me male, female or whatever and the scene would be identical.

 

[Kathian]

Nintendo, for the love of all things good, make a Mario RPG or Earthbound game that looks like this

Lord.

 

[espher]

New IPs are nice, but risky. I always welcome those though. But, switching roles where it makes sense is far better than nothing. Link in particular is a recurring being with distinctly different lives. There is no fundamental reason to always portray Link as a white male. It wouldn't be a "gender swap" because there is no set gender. Each life can be a new opportunity for a whole new body.

So this is more "make a proper (non-spinoff style) Legend of Zelda game starring a female protagonist instead of Link", then? I don't object to that.