BXR and Double Shots were glitches, not intended though thoroughly used and abused by the game's community.
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New Halo 4 Details, Clarifications & No Beta Currently Scheduled
- Thread starter Plywood
- Start date
I was actually hoping for this to be a purely solo adventure for Chief. ie any involvement with the UNSC happens outside the main timeline. They did say we'll learn more about who MC really is... can't think of a better way of giving you intimate knowledge of the character than being in the face of an unknown threat, reflecting upon your earlier triumphs and rediscovering what you're truly capable of.
Not entirely for the better, entirely. H3 Carbine got weaker, AR got buffed in Reach, Pistol weakened. I'm a bit more content this time around, we'll see.
If Halo 2 had a grave, I'd drop off some flowers once a year.
Glitchfire
Banned
Just make it the offspring of Halo and Halo 2 with forge. It's not that hard. All I and I think I speak for a lot of other players want is a decent campaign and a multi-player system that can bring back the competitiveness of Halo 2/3. Add forge with some custom games and Halo is brought back to its glory.
I don't want a clone though, I'm open to these radical-sounding changes if they use Reach as an example of how not to fuck up.
Shake Appeal
Member
I'd be more concerned about them missing out on what the beta could teach them about networking, bugs, and exploits than design or balance. That shit ain't nothing.
They're not looking to make an offspring though, they've said they want to be respectful to the basics of the past Halos but want the trilogy to have it's own voice.
So much good stuff, it's really meaty.
- Glad that they clerified the "perks", again. I wonder what kind of things they will bring to the table, if it's not exactly like any specific existing system introduced before.
- Armor customization will not allow player advantage with power weapons. Pew, that is good news.
- Armour abilties will be back, but seeing as how well the title update for Reach was I have no (major) problems with that. Just nerf armour lock or throw it out the window.
- Existing feature sets of Halo, such as Forge and Theater (confirmed), will be back. Most folks will be happy? We shall see
- Wanna hear/see more about the ranking system and new implementation of Slayer, damn Frankie you such a tease.
- So the The Cyclops 2 is a weapon and there will be something bigger that that in the campaign? Also vehicle?!
- Assassinations return! I know it's a showoff kind of thing, but feels like it should be standard in every Halo.
- Remakes of maps ladies and gents like? OMG Guardian in Halo 4 confirmed (
).
- The Tashi ceiling should be discussed in every Frankie led bulletin.
Now, one thing that did piss me off was this:
- Glad that they clerified the "perks", again. I wonder what kind of things they will bring to the table, if it's not exactly like any specific existing system introduced before.
- Armor customization will not allow player advantage with power weapons. Pew, that is good news.
- Armour abilties will be back, but seeing as how well the title update for Reach was I have no (major) problems with that. Just nerf armour lock or throw it out the window.
- Existing feature sets of Halo, such as Forge and Theater (confirmed), will be back. Most folks will be happy? We shall see
- Wanna hear/see more about the ranking system and new implementation of Slayer, damn Frankie you such a tease.
- So the The Cyclops 2 is a weapon and there will be something bigger that that in the campaign? Also vehicle?!
- Assassinations return! I know it's a showoff kind of thing, but feels like it should be standard in every Halo.
- Remakes of maps ladies and gents like? OMG Guardian in Halo 4 confirmed (
lol
- The Tashi ceiling should be discussed in every Frankie led bulletin.
Now, one thing that did piss me off was this:
I have an irrational hate for episode 1. You cannot fix me.
That would cause me to cry tears of boiling blood.
The Faceless Master
Member
more covenant?
cool.
cool.
dilatedmuscle
Member
80% of my Reach time was probably spent in Forge.
I hope there is realtime lighting in forge, Those grey maps got really awkward looking.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Can someone go into more detail on why they don't like the idea of "perks"? I'm not asking why you don't like call of duty's perks, I don't either. Your conceptual disdain is where I'm interested. I know you don't want an "uneven" playing field, but power weapons are uneven and they are vital to halo. "both people have equal access to power weapons" you say? Well you also have equal access to these "perks" if the match-ups are done correctly, so whats the difference?
If you see someone else has better perk selection, then do it differently. You should feel like you're customizing your character to your play-type, just as you would choose to use a weapon based on your play-type. I simply don't understand how the concept of this alone terrifies people.
If you see someone else has better perk selection, then do it differently. You should feel like you're customizing your character to your play-type, just as you would choose to use a weapon based on your play-type. I simply don't understand how the concept of this alone terrifies people.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Power weapons are hardly uneven. They give an advantage, but one that needs to be fought for, they promote the movement and control in maps.
My preference to Halo's multiplayer is that everyone starts off the same at the beginning of a match, which this seems to hint won't be the case. Also why I don't like Reach's loadouts. Another concern I have is if they're tied to any kind of grinding, as this seems to be a thing in every shooter these days and, well, there's a reason why I don't play them.
i nerini del buio
Member
If hitscan means they have to balance it by introdocing actual recoil, I would have very much preferred travel time with no cone spread
there's always xbox connect that you could play halo 2 on
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
What if it was less like loadouts and more performance enhancing stuff? Same weapon starts, but maybe faster reload perks, faster sprinting, quicker recharge times, extra jetpack thrust, faster aiming/firing out of a sprint, higher jumps, etc. Being able to enhance these things would be awesome to me because everyone has their particular playstyle. Why would you want an even play field when you feel like your character is benefiting from choices?
To me its almost like being able to choose your joystick sensitivity, if you couldn't customize that then you wouldn't be able to cater to your strengths related to controls, be it aiming or reaction time. I see performance progression as the same thing, but to a greater degree; the options are there so choose what optimizes your play-style. I simply don't see the negative in this, if done correctly...and thats a big "if". It just adds more things that need to be balanced, but complexity is good if it is controlled. Hell, look at real life; ultimate complexity with ultimate choice therefore more possibility, which means more interesting and unique outcomes.
If console FarCry can do it a few years back, 343i in 2012 should be able to also.
And yes, realtime lighting effects would be awesome. Need more godrays!
Rickenslacker
Banned
One thing that loadouts did that got on my nerves is that it locked you into an armour ability until you died. So at the start of a match you either had something in mind or winged it. Thing was, if you suddenly felt like you wanted to change to jetpack instead of sprint mid-match, the only way to do it was dying.
Similarly, customizing your character here can lead to artificial specializations that I wouldn't care to be in Halo. In a competitive environment, I want the player's input and complete consistency in the outcome of a battle. I don't want someone beating me in a fight because they chose a quick reload or whatever hypothetical you want to insert, I want them beating me because we came into this arena the same and he just played it better. I want everyone to be the same at the start of our matches with the only modifications being what's fought for on the map.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Life isn't a competitive FPS video game. Random variables and abherations may make real life more interesting, but they don't necessarily make for a fun Halo game.
I hate the idea of customizable Spartan stats. I mean, it sounds kind of cool, but not fun or balance, which matters way more to me. If these type of stat boosts do increase, there needs to be some kind of visual indication, otherwise you have no idea what type of Spartan you're fighting from encounter to encounter. It's that type of inconsistency that makes Reach feel sloppy and frustrating.
Synth_floyd
Banned
I hope the changes don't mean the Call of Duty-ization of Halo. Things like perks and having to get to a score instead of a number of kills to win the match are features from CoD. Leave Halo as Halo and CoD can be CoD.
With the addition of non-cosmetic unlocks and all this talk of "cinematic" gameplay, that's exactly what I'm afraid of. Please prove me wrong, 343i.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Good answer. I guess at a certain point it comes down to personal taste; I think more variables may take longer to get used to, but could also keep the gameplay fresh for a much longer time. Eventually you would get used to different playstyles; for example you would enter a firefight knowing how to better deal with someone having faster reload time or a higher jump. It'd be like dealing with someone with different weapons only not as drastic and more movement based.
edit: and it could be much less harsh but also more varied than Reach. Armor lock was such a change in playstyle that it threw off the whole flow of the game, whereas I think it could be much more subtle using the system I mentioned.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
and it can't simply be a different armor type either, it has to be noticable at first glance, like an elite vs a spartan or the different classes in tf2.
Anything that creates an assymetrical fighting condition, and isn't available to all players at all times, or isn't directly tied to the level (such as powerups/power weapons), is a problem. By all players at all times, I mean that there is no requirement to enter a match with it preselected, like perks in cod, or require you to die to change it, like loadouts in reach.
think about it like this.
In halo 3, a player could take fire from the front and side, and if that player knows that his target will die with the next action (be that a headshot, melee, or the timing of a thrown grenade), said player could then premeditate on how to deal with his flanking enemy.
If that target is then given any form of "condition" which changes that fundemental aspect of player control, it "breaks" the comepetitive nature of the game. (even if it's very minor, such as enough shield to handle one extra shot, or the ability to carry any extra ammo).
In reach, this can be seen with the inability to accurately determine a players movement (sprint/jetpack), if that player has extra defensive capabilities (armorlock) and by the random nature of recoil on weapons(though the fact that "bloom" is to a degree controlable helps limit that aspect).
In the gametypes where all players are given the same ability, this "broken" condition is lessened in that there is an inherent knowledge that an opposing player can use said ability at any time.
If abilities are placed on a map, that "broken" condition changes from an uncontrolable circumstance, to one of player strategy, ie how does one control and benefit from said ability to create map control(as seen with equipment/powerups/poweweapons in previous halo games). This set up allows for players to use skill to snowball, which is both a desired and undesired consequence respectively. The most skilled can control the map best, those that control the map best, get the powerweapons most, those with powerweapons get more kills and get more map control. That said the issue becomes one of level and layout design. It can also be directly influenced by the community (mlg maps in halo 3) or removed all together.
so perks prettymuch turn the playing field from one of "I won because I have most skill, lined up the best shot, controlled the weapons/level the best" to "i won because my perks are better, or best for the situation". It turns the battlefield from a consistent skill based system to something that feels luck based and uncontrolable.
Miggytronz
Member
Kids would love it.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
No offense to those who used these, but I never want to play a game again that has button "glitches." In my mind these are no better than people using super jumps and sniping you from outside of a map.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
I understand the rest, but this is what I don't understand. Just because a power weapon/item is on the map doesn't make it any more balanced. Once a team gets a power weapon such as the rocket launcher, its immediately unfair. So up to the point of getting the weapon, yes, its strategic and whatnot, but once picked up the field of play is no longer fair.
Additionally, the strategy behind getting to a power weapon at the beginning of a game most often has to do with starting location...one team may start closer to the sword so they get the sword first; complete luck which also leads to uneven play. A power weapon such as the rocket launcher makes things so uneven, I don't know how that can be supported so strongly, yet a subtle system where a balanced selection that is made by everyone before the game starts is so outwardly hated.
Synth_floyd
Banned
That's what I'm afraid. Bungie passed on the torch to 343i which is controlled by MS and they will want to milk everything they can out of the series with yearly releases and whatever multiplayer features will sell the most copies.
We'll see what happens but I'm thinking that the last true Halo will be Halo: Reach.
Rickenslacker
Banned
The team getting an advantage in obtaining the power weapon isn't unfair, the entire battle and setup before acquiring it made way for that. The team that gets outplayed in that skirmish loses an element of power on the map and has to make up for that. The idea is that it's earning the advantage rather than being an inherent part of your character.
As for your second point, that comes down to map design. In symmetrical maps you bypass that entirely, teams start out equidistant from power weapons. There's no luck to it. In asymmetrical maps, one team may end up starting closer to a power weapon, the other team might have another, but that's really a case by case thing.
Have some faith in 343, they love the series and want what's best for the fans, and I believe Frankie when he says not to worry. I doubt that they will continue the annual releases, there were special circumstances over the last 3-4 years with the transition and all. I expect Halo 5 will have another 3 year cycle, especially since the next generation allows MS to make another franchise to fill the release gap along with Gears.
darkpaladinmfc
Member
I take it you're not a fan of strafejumping or wavedashing either?
les papillons sexuels
Banned
Because one system is an issue with level design, where as the other is an issue of gameplay design. Level design is easy to fix, gamedesign isn't. When I'm thinking of the most competitive maps in halo, it's most often the symmetrical ones, the pit, midship, etc. So that concern is already negated by that fact.
Also powerweapons arn't infinite in use, and they're not passive stats. Players still need to know how to use a rocket launcher to get a kill, where as a perk like the martyrdom perk, will eventually get players kills regardless. That said, if a person gets a powerweapon they deserve that advantage because they, either as a team, won that weapon during a contested firefight, or used a better strategy, or they're dying so often that they got spawned next to one.
Finally, powerweapons can be easily balanced out. I can see a person who has a powerweapon, and I can act accordingly, someone has a sword, get a shotgun, someone has rockets, snipe them. Perk systems aren't appearent, I wont know how many shots it takes to kill someone if there's a perk that changes sheilds. I wont be able to determine a players jump arch is there's a perk that changes jump height, I wont know if I should go in for a melee if there's a perk that changes melee damage.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Yup. It's this type of dynamic gameplay that makes competitive Halo fun for me.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Fair enough, but I think this limits gameplay in the sense that if everyone knows what they're doing, its an immediate rush to the power weapons, and the initial skirmish to win them over may determine the final outcome of the game. If an objective-type game is what you want when you're playing slayer, then I suppose that works, but I still think just because its all "on the playing field" doesn't make it even, or more importantly, fun.
I play team slayer, I want to find a dude and kill him in a skilled firefight, not by getting to the power weapons first and holding that area so I can keep getting power weapons. The strategy in team slayer should be killing the other team under the same conditions, right? Not getting to a weapon first so I can kill them really easily. Personally I think power weapons are one of Halo's greatest weaknesses. Well, at least sword and rocket launcher and to a lesser degree sniper.
Edit: papillons, yes, power weapons are limited in use and they usually have counters, which is why I don't think its game breaking. And I agree with what you've said, I guess I just think its possible for these gameplay design changes to work (even without seeing what abilities someone may have). I guess I just don't see distributing stats to your preference as unbalanced, as long as everyone gets the same choices.
Something Wicked
Member
Ugh, so there assigning each kill some arbitrary number of points in order to make calculating the kill differential on the fly a bit more difficult, so that the kiddies won't realize how bad they're losing in matches. This and the perks are really making me nervous that we could end up with something even worse than Reach.
Halo is a FPS trying to simulate sci-fi, future war- it's not some fighting game. I didn't realize soldiers tap their guns in different places in a certain order to make their guns shoot faster...
If you want button combos, go play Street Fighter.
Rickenslacker
Banned
There's nothing really limiting about it, map control is the fundamental of arena based FPS design. There's also teamplay and communication to consider, since a power weapon is an advantage, but not a case of "get power weapon, win game". Halo has always been predicated on the notion of having a Jack of all trades precision weapon that works and leaves you capable in all scenarios, but will get beaten in a power weapon's specialized range.
That said, I think at least even if you want to add modifying character traits into the mix, you can see why this isn't preferable to players like me and isn't directly comparable to something that's readily available on the map.
I think anyone who values Halo's level playing field is nervous about it, particularly in light of how little information we have. I'm very concerned myself, but not drawing any conclusions until we actually know the details.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
and I dont see why a perk system is neccessary for a player to create a preference. If you like close quaters combat, then pick the weapon that's most suitible for you to thrive in that situation, then use the map/level to play to those strengths. I'll never complain about someone who's camping because i view it as a viable strategy. Same goes for a good sniper, or someone whose mastered the midrange weapons.
And sure, it's not impossible to balance out a perk system, the problem from a gameplay perspective is that the more variables you put into a game, the harder it is to balance, the less reliable your core gameplay mechanics become, and the random the experience becomes. For me, a game is all about reliable systems, the more random the experience, the less fun it becomes, the more fustrating it becomes.
I know they were glitches, but it made melee combat much more exciting and they weren't really cheap glitches either. You could learn to get better with them and it did help make you a better player.
Me too man, me too.
I doubt they'd do anything stupid with them. I'm not expecting air strikes to come down or anything like that. I'm staying optimistic.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
The BR is a three-shot burst weapon. It is hitscan
DeathIsTheEnd
Member
Though I was more hesitant at first about the idea of 'perks', as long as players are matched up well with either a visible or hidden 'skill' system I won't really be worried at all.