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New LCD Compatible Lightgun (Kickstarter)

Kazza

Member
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It's only been a day, but the kickstarter has already received almost double its initial goal of £25k. It's Windows and Linux (experimental) only, for now at least. The price is £80 for the basic version, and £130 with recoil.

Currently the only way to play Lightgun games is either to keep a giant CRT television hanging around or use a Wii remote style technology with additional hardware placed around the television (such as a Wii sensor bar). Unfortunately that still doesn't provide line of sight shooting unless you calibrate. However every time you move to a different position or angle you need to re-calibrate. These problems are why we don't see Lightgun games anymore on the major consoles.

This is why I developed the Sinden Lightgun. It interacts directly with the television and doesn't require additional hardware around the television or any calibration. It is always accurate even if you change your position.





So how does it work??? It uses smart image recognition with some clever maths and clever software. The Sinden Lightgun contains a high quality and high speed camera which captures the television screen output and calculates where the user is pointing. A thin rectangular border is added to the display content which is used as a reference point. The software processes the captured image and calculates the required mouse movement in under 5ms.


I loved my SMS light phaser, Menacer and Virtua Copguns as a kid, so this is tempting, but £80 is a little too high to be an impulse purchase, so I'm going to sit on the decision for a couple of weeks. The last time I played light gun games was on the Wii (which has a great selection). Unfortunately, the aim always seemed a little off, so this one sounds a lot better.
 
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Shifty

Member
Interesting methodology. Sounds like it'll be more accurate than wiimote-style sensor bar tech by virtue of operating in screen-space.
 

Ellis

Member
Curious to hear if this will work on projectors too. Could be difficult to setup.

Check out his Youtube channel for demonstration videos he has made, and the one in the OP as it shows him playing on a projector.

Everything regarding the lightgun should be incredibly easy to setup for the end user. The only issue I see some people having is configuring emulators getting some older PC games to run on modern operating systems. Once you familiarise yourself with all that (if you haven't already) then you will be golden.
 
Check out his Youtube channel for demonstration videos he has made, and the one in the OP as it shows him playing on a projector.

Everything regarding the lightgun should be incredibly easy to setup for the end user. The only issue I see some people having is configuring emulators getting some older PC games to run on modern operating systems. Once you familiarise yourself with all that (if you haven't already) then you will be golden.

Thank you, I'll certainly check everything out!

The idea of playing something like House of the Dead 2 on my 120" is always in the back of my head. I did it with the collection on the Wii, but it was rather cumbersome.
 

Nymphae

Banned
Shit I specifically avoided all light gun games when I was rebuilding my retro collection for PC, I assumed those could not be played with actual light guns.

That looks cool too, reminds me of the PS1 Time Crisis gun.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
I use aimtrack guns on my main emulator system. They are working good enough for me once I got the calibration down.
 

DrNeroCF

Member
Been wondering why no one's done this yet. Technically you could with the joy con's IR camera, if you put a piece of reflective tape on each corner of the TV.
 

Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
There are already alternatives available, but this seems to be perfect for a MAME cabinet. Interested.
 
Do people not know how to use old guns for newere tv's?

You know that plastic sheet people take off their TVs when they buy them? If it's transparent and you can see through it clearly leave it on, it helps with gun detection.

That's been a thing since flat tvs came out years ago.
 

Kazza

Member
Just a reminder that there are 12 hours left to support this kickstarter and grab yourself a gun. It looks like it could end up breaking £250k, so I think it's fair to say that it has been a successful fundraising (the target was only £20k). Despite being interested in the concept, I still can't quite bring myself to pull the trigger and back it. I think I'll wait out this first gen in the hope that there will be an even better 2nd gen.
 

Kazza

Member
Would this be compatible with my PS1/PS2?

Apparently so. This is the latest kickstarter update:

Playstation 1 and 2 original console Sinden Lightgun support
Posted by Sinden Technology (Creator)

Hi All
A massive thank you to everyone that has joined the project so far. It has been a super exciting 3 weeks. As I keep on saying this is only the start with lots of exciting things to come. As an example of this I've just manage to complete a cheap hardware mod that interfaces the Sinden Lightgun directly with original Playstation 1 and Playstation 2 consoles.
I know this was high up on the wish list for lots of people including myself:
The plan is to turn this into a single easy mod so you can just attach it to a Raspberry Pi, connect it up and play but either way the instructions and software will be available from Day 1 of the Kickstarter units being delivered. The mod as demonstrated can be made for as cheap as £10 and just needs a Raspberry Pi, no soldering required. I’ve literally only just got this working so I think there is room for optimization too.
Long term hopefully I can make a self contained Lightgun unit that works too. I’m hoping to demonstrate in the near future this mod working with the original Xbox and further down the line I’m confident it will work with PS2 Guncon2 and PS3 Guncon3. Further systems are targeted for the future.
Thank you to everyone that has posted on social media and spread the word. I've loved hearing your suggestions and answering your questions. I've received some great ideas to take to the next phase. When I get the Sinden Lightgun forum up and running after the Kickstarter we will have a place to collate all these great ideas and see what we can make happen. Please continue to spread the word where you can if you think people will be interested.
Best regards
Andy





Hopefully other consoles will follow (Saturn, Dreamcast etc)
 

Alternative

Neo Member
I just learned about this today. Glad I had the time to make a pledge for the dual wielding recoil tier :D

I hope that we will be able to use the 3D tracking feature to finally be able to crouch in order to reload in Time Crisis!
 

Kazza

Member
I just learned about this today. Glad I had the time to make a pledge for the dual wielding recoil tier :D

I hope that we will be able to use the 3D tracking feature to finally be able to crouch in order to reload in Time Crisis!

Cool. Let us know how the light gun is once it arrives. The guy seems to know what he is doing, so hopefully it will be a quality product.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Why don't you guys just get gal gun on the Switch and use this?
Hell any game that has gyro aiming can be played with this.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Do people not know how to use old guns for newere tv's?

You know that plastic sheet people take off their TVs when they buy them? If it's transparent and you can see through it clearly leave it on, it helps with gun detection.

That's been a thing since flat tvs came out years ago.
Video or it didn't happen, lol, arcade enthusiasts in the know spend money to develop/buy far from perfect lightgun emulation hardware like AimTrak (and non enthusiasts fall for similar but shoddy DYI level stuff that work like shit) when they could get a film strip (or not get it as it merely "helps", not "enables").

Same for companies that attempted to release console lightgun games for modern displays with that same Wii-style setup (like GunCon 3) when they could just apparently bundle a same old lightgun with a modern port and it'd work, lol.

Also there were flat screen CRT TVs, see Trinitron, this isn't about the screen curvature, it's about pretty much everything else.

Why don't you guys just get gal gun on the Switch and use this?
Hell any game that has gyro aiming can be played with this.
What are you even talking about, that's awful and irrelevant, how are gyro controls comparable to a lightgun and lightgun games? You don't twist a lightgun around to change the camera angle or cursor position like it's some kind of shoddy gun shaped air mouse, you aim at elements on screen with pinpoint accuracy.

The only not-lightgun thing that came relatively close is a Wii with a decent gun shell and more importantly steady frame rate with the proper in-game calibration options (so, not House of the Dead: Overkill with its sub par performance and off calibration, not Dead Space: Extraction, not the Resident Evil Chronicles games, not the amazing but not-a-lightgun-shooter Sin & Punishment 2 or whatever else people raved about claiming it brought back the lightgun back then, while playing with crosshair enabled and not even caring their shots went nowhere near where they were physically aiming - pretty much only a handful of SEGA Wii ports did this right, namely HOTD 2 & 3, Gunblade N.Y. & L.A. Machineguns even though these work with crosshair enabled even in the arcade, and Ghost Squad despite the 30fps lock) but that still had limitations (if you moved even an inch while playing the aim would then be off, guaranteed, and it's impossible not to move even as you aim from side to side, so yeah). Challenges like some Point Blank levels would be impossible given the tech deficiencies even if they had been ported but it's a shame we didn't get more SEGA games at least like a Virtua Cop bundle, Confidential Mission and others. Current and often expensive lightgun solutions for PC and other emulation hardware work in a similar manner and with similar limitations. In theory with more infrared light points of reference you could get more accuracy even if you moved around but I've not seen anything like this for home use, only later high end arcade cabinets used such a system and it'd be awkward to have to set up that many.

I was really hoping we'd get some VR lightgun game action via emulation (there are some lightgun style games for VR like Drop Dead, Crisis VRigade and, yes, the Gal Gun games, showing the potential as the VR controllers - not PSVR - are more than accurate enough to work as lightguns, but most are just meh wave shooters without the tight gameplay and feel of actual lightgun games) but it seems all efforts are abandoned and/or way too complicated for end users and/or still limited in ways like New Retro Arcade: Neon. I'm hoping for EmuVR to eventually turn out good and get lightgun support (editing this months later, it does now!).

Anyway, this Sinden lightgun looks like a very good solution making the points of reference software based and on-screen which means more accuracy regardless of your positioning and that you just need the gun past that point and no infrared light emitters.

Hopefully it will be good and not too expensive and maybe spark more lightgun features development for emulators and what not.

It looks like the creator is now also working with Polymega to offer a lightgun for that system. It looks pretty slick honestly but I don't want a software emulation box like that, I'd rather just use my PC and buy the controllers and/or software needed. If they released this as a PC emulation suite that's easy to use, just run the software, choose a system/game and you're off, with USB versions of the hardware, I'd probably buy a few kits (but would prefer to see an all purpose method that works as a front end for any emulator so you can play arcade games too).


It's mentioned they're aiming for a price of around $99 so I guess that's a good indication for Sinden products down the line too, similar to its own Kickstarter tiers.

1.jpg
 
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sunnysideup

Banned
Its adding another filter/layer on top of the signal from the console?

To me this sounds like there is going to be some bad upscaling, wrong aspect ratios and input lag?
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
No clue, Polymega which are licensing this guy's work for their own system's lightgun have said they aim for around $99.

On the Sinden kickstarter the lowest tier netting you one of them was 80 pounds so around the same as Polymega aim for I guess.

That's still half what dodgy not-1:1-accurate lightguns people have been buying from the likes of AimTrak for use with emulators etc. cost.

Edit: AimTrak prices have dropped since and are roughly the same or a little more for the recoil versions. But they're still Wii/GunCon3-like with a sensor bar and the same calibration issues and having to stay put as much as possible when using them to maintain some semblance of accuracy.
 
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Kazza

Member



From a comment the maker made under the video, it seems that the gun will support variable recoil to match different gun types:

It does support rapid (machine gun style) fire. It does a reduced recoil strength so it can keep up, the challenge is trying to get the rapid fire to sync perfectly with the game. Lots of experimenting to do with the recoil :) there is of course some compromise in performance but the benefits of not needing to wire up a power supply is a massive win for convenience
 

Kazza

Member
The creator has now launched an Indiegogo campaign, in addition to the previous kickstarter one. It seems like just a convenient way to do some pre-orders (first batch due in September). I missed the kickstarter and am quite tempted. The version with recoil looks good, but is quite a bit more expensive.


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I have launched my project on Indiegogo Indemand and this is the main promotional video. Please support my project if you can: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/th... The production has progressed really well and I'm now comfortable to take more orders. A few of the components have quite long lead times so I want to get the next batch underway. These new orders are planned to follow the Kickstarter orders and be delivered in September. The Sinden Lightgun is the world's only true LCD television compatible Lightgun in that it works directly off of the television light and doesn't require any other hardware such as sensor bars. It does not require calibration and remains perfectly accurate even if you change position or angle.
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
First kickstarter backer guns are getting sent out soon.
Hi Everyone

Very quick update to keep you in the loop. I've got a collection scheduled next Friday (4th September) to pick up the first 100 Kickstarter backer's lightguns to dispatch.

I currently have 60 single player lightguns and 60 double packs at my house to label up so that is 180 lightguns in total. The factory have now completed all of the Kickstarter non-recoil lightguns. The next priority is going to be getting the Kickstarter recoil ones done after that and can then start shipping Indiegogo orders after that.

This is an image of around 500 at the factory:
lri6tgvc1hqhpuxlwidg.jpg

The packaging is very simple to avoid attracting attention through customs and also through the delivery chain. The strategy might evolve to be different for different countries.

Some good news with people interested in experimenting with connections to original console Playstations. I "believe" I have got past the blockers of getting the Guncon2 PS2 USB support to work (thanks to some help). This is a big positive because you don't need any fiddly wiring to connect the mod components to a USB port compared to connecting to an original PS1 port. I've only partially tested it so far on Time Crisis 2 but hey if there is one game to know probably works...that is a good one!

Best regards

Andy
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Dude is now accepting a new batch of orders for units that will be delivered in June (edit: nope, all gone, it's for July now). Also, this review has convinced me it doesn't have enough real issues to have an excuse to not buy it. Just waiting for the right time to do that now...


Polymega also have their version up for preorder and it seems to cost about the same as the recoil-less version here, even though it doesn't have the pump action (and has a stick in place of the d-pad which tbh doesn't seem necessary or better than a d-pad for the functions it performed).
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
There's also this DYI system that uses 4 IR points to calibrate the aiming with supposedly equal accuracy after correct configuration. I'm not good with stuff like that so have no idea what to make of it. This guy pimps a store that sells pre-made kits using it but it's $250 for a modded guncon...




I'm gonna stick with waiting for the right time to buy a Sinden as it has a decent gun shell and is not DYI. GUN4IR seems to be for folks with their own arcade cabinets who would prefer to have no border/mess around setting up LED trackers etc., or pay way too much for others to do it for them.
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Not compatible with oled?

Angry Sam Neill GIF by HUNT FOR THE WILDERPEOPLE
It's compatible with anything, even projectors.

I’m waiting out for this to work with OG hardware with zero hardware mods. I have tons of games to play.
Don't see how that could be possible. Just rip your games and emulate them on PC/Xbox/whatever, less wear and tear on the dics that will eventually rot anyway. Or get a CRT for use with your old lightguns if you're that hung up on authenticity.
 
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It's compatible with anything, even projectors.


Don't see how that could be possible. Just rip your games and emulate them on PC/Xbox/whatever, less wear and tear on the dics that will eventually rot anyway. Or get a CRT if you're that hung up on authenticity.

We’ll see. The guy is working on it. I have a crt to play my games on, but I’d like to play them on a bigger screen. I don’t emulate games, so that won’t work for me.
 

Putonahappyface

Gold Member
It's compatible with anything, even projectors.


Don't see how that could be possible. Just rip your games and emulate them on PC/Xbox/whatever, less wear and tear on the dics that will eventually rot anyway. Or get a CRT for use with your old lightguns if you're that hung up on authenticity.
I love light gun games. I don't understand why they died out.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Finally resigned to the fact there's never going to be a non DYI cheap yet good lightgun since Sinden is so costly (seriously, how was a Wii remote only 39.99 in 2006 but now because they've added a handgun grip, shifted the controls around and maybe made the camera better to track a screen border instead of IR lights - though the remote's had good specs like 200 Hz - it has to cost like 3x or 4x with rumble? I get economy of scale but they didn't know Wii was going to be so successful before pricing it with a profit margin that was probably already generous to Nintendo itself for accessories like extra controllers), or much effort for VR lightgun games outside EmuVR (and rare games like Pistol Whip or Dead Second), so I dug out my Wii remotes and Dolphinbar and set it up with Dolphin to at least enjoy the shooters that don't rely on accuracy and have on-screen crosshair even in the arcades. I'm getting a Wii Zapper soon so that should make them a bit more fun too. Stuff like L.A. Machineguns and such, but I'll probably also play the games meant to be real lightgun games like Ghost Squad and The House of the Dead 2 & 3 in the same way in this and other emulators if I can get Wiimotes working, with crosshair on and the zapper for SMG hip firing instead of my old pistol-like Sega Handcannon shell or trying to actually aim since the Wii remotes aren't nearly accurate enough for that (outside using your missed or on target shot effects as a crosshair guide). I guess I'll also replay some more Wii games like SMGalaxy, MPTrilogy and the Prince of Persia game. I've been using Dolphin anyway but only for GameCube and Classic Controller Wii games using my DS4 while the Wii remotes went to forgotten storage mode.


Since I did that I also bothered - via a friend who patreons it - to finally check out TeknoParrot for once but I have to say it leaves a lot to be desired compared to other emulators still. The interface is very mame-like (but far simpler to be honest, I didn't have major issues) and each game has to be manually added and configured and stuff, plus there's no easy access to simple options like alternating between windowed and fullscreen or even maximizing the window (for some games you can kinda do that but for others it borks the rendering, some have a "fullscreen windowed" option that doesn't actually work since it changes your resolution to the game's anyway, etc.). I only tried 3 games so far, all lightgun games. Operation G.H.O.S.T. (one of the Ghost Squad sequels), House of the Dead 4 and SEGA Golden Gun. The last doesn't seem very high quality, just your average arcade novelty, like a Sega made knock off of their best. They work alright all things considered but yeah, it'll hopefully get better. It does natively support the Dolphinbar and Wii remotes so you don't need external software crap with it though. I'll check out some non shooter games at some point but I generally prefer older arcade games than it's meant for anyway so I probably won't be using it at home. We don't have a TeknoParrot thread, weird. I guess emulation is okay here but with relatively modern arcade games without home ports nobody can easily claim they own the original?
 
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flying_sq

Member
Man, if I could grab a Delta Point Pro, or mess around with my Eotech on this. I wonder if the picatinny rail is accurate.
 
I really gotta get around to getting one of these. I've played through some old light gun games with a mouse and it's just not the same. Better than a gamepad, but still not as good as a light gun.
 
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