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[JMargaris]

People seem to be fundamentally missing the point of these videos. (I admit, I didn't like the earlier videos as much as the new ones for a variety of reasons)

The videos are not analysis, they are documentation.

The point of these videos is to say:

"Look at this."

"Ok, that's just one example."

"Look at this as well. It's from a critically acclaimed game that sold well!"

"Ok, that's two examples."

"Then look at this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this."

The videos are repetitive - that's the point. The video content is repetitive because the video game content repeats across so many games. These videos are weak when they make claims like that Nintendo popularized the "save the princess" trope. These videos are strong when they are just a never-ending avalanche of examples.

When they first showed off Dishonered the level they showed was a brothel. "Here's a look at our generic main hero guy sneaking into a whorehouse where he can then steam women to death" Oh - so it's like dozens of other AAA video games? That was my reaction. That kind of scenario should come off as a specific choice, instead it's a lazy convention.

If you want to show how action movies have a lot of dumb one-liners in them you make a super-cut of one liners. That's the best thing next to an exhaustive quantitative analysis. If you want to show that video games have a gender problem you make what is effectively an hours-long super-cut of women being prostitutes, getting diced up, crush to death, raped, avenged, rescued, etc.

It would be great if someone made a video series of deep analysis. That's a different series. This series is documentation. This series is meant to bury people in so many pieces of anecdotal evidence that they can't all be brushed off as purely anecdotal.

The point of these videos is for game players and developers to ask themselves "why do so many of these games have this crap in them?" And even if that crap isn't warping minds or destroying women if nothing else it's incredibly lazy.

That scene in her video of a Mafia game where they fight as a dead stripper lies on the ground? That exact same scene exists in The Getaway. It probably exists in a dozen other games. Why? Even if you don't see a sexism problem at least see an originality problem.

Edit: As far as "maybe a different video series would be better." Sure. That's always the case. If someone complains about video games you can say "but what about Ferguson? Then if they complain about Ferguson you can say "but what about Liberia?"

There are always more important problems. There are always better approaches - if you identify a better approach then take it. Otherwise this is what we've got. It's not the best. It has issues. But to me it's clearly a net positive. If video game makers watch these videos and think "god we really are a bunch of lazy fucks and it sure does look like we don't respect women much" then mission accomplished.

 

[atr0cious]

People seem to be fundamentally missing the point of these videos. (I admit, I didn't like the earlier videos as much as the new ones for a variety of reasons)

The videos are not analysis, they are documentation.

The point of these videos is to say:

"Look at this."

"Ok, that's just one example."

"Look at this as well. It's from a critically acclaimed game that sold well!"

"Ok, that's two examples."

"The look at this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this."

The videos are repetitive - that's the point. The video content is repetitive because the video game content repeats across so many games. These videos are weak when they make claims like that Nintendo popularized the "save the princess" trope. These videos are strong when they are just a never-ending avalanche of examples.

When they first showed off Dishonered the level they showed was a brothel. "Here's a look at our generic main hero guy sneaking into a whorehouse where he can then steam women to death" Oh - so it's like dozens of other AAA video games? That was my reaction. That kind of scenario should come off as a specific choice, instead it's a lazy convention.

If you want to show how action movies have a lot of dumb one-liners in them you make a super-cut of one liners. That's the best thing next to an exhaustive quantitative analysis. If you want to show that video games have a gender problem you make what is effectively an hours-long super-cut of women being prostitutes, getting diced up, crush to death, raped, avenged, rescued, etc.

It would be great if someone made a video series of deep analysis. That's a different series. This series is documentation. This series is meant to bury people in so many pieces of anecdotal evidence that they can't all be brushed off as purely anecdotal.

The point of these videos is for game players and developers to ask themselves "why do so many of these games have this crap in them?" And even if that crap isn't warping minds or destroying women if nothing else it's incredibly lazy.

That scene in her video of a Mafia game where they fight as a dead stripper lies on the ground? That exact same scene exists in The Getaway. It probably exists in a dozen other games. Why? Even if you don't see a sexism problem at least see an originality problem.

Thanks for this. And that scene is one of the first big action set pieces in the original Mass Effect.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

People seem to be fundamentally missing the point of these videos. (I admit, I didn't like the earlier videos as much as the new ones for a variety of reasons)

The videos are not analysis, they are documentation.

The point of these videos is to say:

"Look at this."

"Ok, that's just one example."

"Look at this as well. It's from a critically acclaimed game that sold well!"

"Ok, that's two examples."

"The look at this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this."

The videos are repetitive - that's the point. The video content is repetitive because the video game content repeats across so many games. These videos are weak when they make claims like that Nintendo popularized the "save the princess" trope. These videos are strong when they are just a never-ending avalanche of examples.

When they first showed off Dishonered the level they showed was a brothel. "Here's a look at our generic main hero guy sneaking into a whorehouse where he can then steam women to death" Oh - so it's like dozens of other AAA video games? That was my reaction. That kind of scenario should come off as a specific choice, instead it's a lazy convention.

If you want to show how action movies have a lot of dumb one-liners in them you make a super-cut of one liners. That's the best thing next to an exhaustive quantitative analysis. If you want to show that video games have a gender problem you make what is effectively an hours-long super-cut of women being prostitutes, getting diced up, crush to death, raped, avenged, rescued, etc.

It would be great if someone made a video series of deep analysis. That's a different series. This series is documentation. This series is meant to bury people in so many pieces of anecdotal evidence that they can't all be brushed off as purely anecdotal.

The point of these videos is for game players and developers to ask themselves "why do so many of these games have this crap in them?" And even if that crap isn't warping minds or destroying women if nothing else it's incredibly lazy.

That scene in her video of a Mafia game where they fight as a dead stripper lies on the ground? That exact same scene exists in The Getaway. It probably exists in a dozen other games. Why? Even if you don't see a sexism problem at least see an originality problem.

<3

 

[HeelPower]

. Please stop bringing them up as if they need to be scolded. Because they don't.

If a woman publicly objectifies and demeans herself and ties those traits to being a woman ,then she sets a terrible example.Especially when she is in a a position of influence.She is reinforcing the terrible preconceptions that many men might have about women and many women might have about themselves.She is literally working against respectful views of equality,self-worth and her opinion about what it means to be a woman may not represent or be in harmony with that of other women.

If that's the case then she is to be criticized and questioned just as equally as an artist who makes an objectified NPC in a game would be.That's the truth. Many women in popular culture continue to sell themselves based solely on sexual,disposable and interchangeable qualities.

We still live in a world where women being second rate is deeply rooted in many, many parts of the world.Its unfortunate but true.Rich ,famous and influential people shouldn't just keep reinforcing these images because they are profitable.Especially when their influence extends to many parts of the world in the form of internet, games, music and movies and advertisement.

Its not a simple question of freedom.Freedom has consequences.

 

[ishibear]

If a woman publicly objectifies and demeans herself and ties those traits to being a woman ,then she sets a terrible example.Especially when she is in a a position of influence.She is reinforcing the terrible preconceptions that many men might have about women and many women might have about themselves.She is literally working against respectful views of equality,self-worth and her opinion about what it means to be a woman may not represent or be in harmony with that of other women.

If a woman likes her body and wants to show it off, how is she any different than a man who does the same? It's ironic considering the man wouldn't be told he's reinforcing negative perceptions of men.

Her opinion of what it means to be a woman would be all her own, as it should be. Society loves to place us all into traditional roles and ideology, even if it doesn't speak to who we are as individuals.

But if this hypothetical woman says that she wants freedom to dress and behave as she pleases, she's not defeating our purpose. She's reinforcing it. She is an individual person, the majority should not be free to dictate how she lives her life and damn sure shouldn't demand she makes different choices.

If that's the case then she is to be criticized and questioned just as equally as an artist who makes an objectified NPC in a game would be.That's the truth. Many women in popular culture continue to sell themselves based solely on sexual,disposable and interchangeable qualities.

Wrong.

The characters created by an artist are objects, they have no will power and no choice except what that artist desires. If he creates a character just to parade her around and be used as a sex doll for men she isn't comfortable with or this is against her will, he deserves to be called out for his bullshit.

Most women who dress scantily clad have CHOSEN to dress that way. They are comfortable, they are confident, they are not problematic. No one told them to wear anything. They decided to, And they have that right. But created characters being reduced to sex objects even if they would never wear these outfits as its against their character? Gross and WRONG.

We still live in a world where women being second rate is deeply rooted in many, many parts of the world.Its unfortunate but true.Rich ,famous and influential people shouldn't just keep reinforcing these images because they are profitable.Especially when their influence extends to many parts of the world in the form of internet, games, music and movies and advertisement.

Its not a simple question of freedom.Freedom has consequences.

What better way to change this unfortunate circumstance than to continue fighting for our rights to be sexy (when WE want to be, not because some men want us to), to be conservative, to work in construction, to stop shaving, etc? If we stop and tell every woman to do this or that, we're defeating our own movement.

We want women to be free to dress or do whatever they please without being told they were asking for it. Or some guy feeling it's okay to cat call her for being attractive. Or to be a housewife without someone telling her she's wrong for being traditional. Or to freaking play video games and review them without being harassed and threatened for criticizing a woman's role in gaming media.

It's your choice if you choose to see one woman as more legit than the next, and I'll tell you, you're wrong for it.

Freedom has consequences... you shouldn't feel so comfortable shaming anyone for enjoying themselves, as long as they aren't hurting other people.

Who are these women who dress scantily harming? No one. The female body is not something to shame. Women shouldn't have to fear their safety if they dress a certain way. To insinuate that is cruel and a very bigoted perspective to have.

It's 2014, it's time to leave that poisonous thinking in the past and move forward.

 

[zeldablue]

If a woman likes her body and wants to show it off, how is she any different than a man who does the same? It's ironic considering the man wouldn't be told he's reinforcing negative perceptions of men.

Her opinion of what it means to be a woman would be all her own, as it should be. Society loves to place us all into traditional roles and ideology, even if it doesn't speak to who we are as individuals.

But if this hypothetical woman says that she wants freedom to dress and behave as she pleases, she's not defeating our purpose. She's reinforcing it. She is an individual person, the majority should not be free to dictate how she lives her life and damn sure shouldn't demand she makes different choices.



Wrong.

The characters created by an artist are objects, they have no will power and no choice except what that artist desires. If he creates a character just to parade her around and be used as a sex doll for men she isn't comfortable with or this is against her will, he deserves to be called out for his bullshit.

Most women who dress scantily clad have CHOSEN to dress that way. They are comfortable, they are confident, they are not problematic. No one told them to wear anything. They decided to, And they have that right. But created characters being reduced to sex objects even if they would never wear these outfits as its against their character? Gross and WRONG.



What better way to change this unfortunate circumstance than to continue fighting for our rights to be sexy (when WE want to be, not because some men want us to), to be conservative, to work in construction, to stop shaving, etc? If we stop and tell every woman to do this or that, we're defeating our own movement.

We want women to be free to dress or do whatever they please without being told they were asking for it. Or some guy feeling it's okay to cat call her for being attractive. Or to be a housewife without someone telling her she's wrong for being traditional. Or to freaking play video games and review them without being harassed and threatened for criticizing a woman's role in gaming media.

It's your choice if you choose to see one woman as more legit than the next, and I'll tell you, you're wrong for it.

Freedom has consequences... you shouldn't feel so comfortable shaming anyone for enjoying themselves, as long as they aren't hurting other people.

Who are these women who dress scantily harming? No one. The female body is not something to shame. Women shouldn't have to fear their safety if they dress a certain way. To insinuate that is cruel and a very bigoted perspective to have.

It's 2014, it's time to leave that poisonous thinking in the past and move forward.

I think he/she means that if someone says only sexy women are real women, it can cause more women to nit pick their bodies into a complete mess. Especially young impressionable girls and girls with percieved "undesirable" ethnicity and girls with obesity/acne etc. A lot of women tie their worth to that sort of thing and it's not very healthy.

Likewise if a man insinuates that doing certain things makes you a "real man" he is causing a lot of other men to go after material things to garner their sense of worth. It also makes them hyper sensitive to any percieved girly or gayness they may see within themselves and other boys/men around them.

Both men and women suffer from bad body image or self esteem for the same reasons. It's bad and I don't like seeing people chase after what looks to be artificial happiness as oppose to individualization and an appreciation for who they already naturally are.

A man or woman doesn't have to be anything, as long as they are who they wish to be. Of course our social psychology goes against that...but whatever. :9

Cat calling sucks though, and I didn't realize why it sucked until I moved to the city by myself. It's absolutely terrifying at times. :/

 

[ishibear]

I think he/she means that if someone says only sexy women are real women, it can cause more women to nit pick their bodies into a complete mess. Especially young impressionable girls and girls with percieved "undesirable" ethnicity and girls with obesity/acne etc. A lot of women tie their worth to that sort of thing and it's not very healthy.

Likewise if a man insinuates that doing certain things makes you a "real man" he is causing a lot of other men to go after material things to garner their sense of worth. It also makes them hyper sensitive to any percieved girly or gayness they may see within themselves and other boys/men around them.

Both men and women suffer from bad body image or self esteem for the same reasons. It's bad and I don't like seeing people chase after what looks to be artificial happiness as oppose to individualization and an appreciation for who they already naturally are.

A man or woman doesn't have to be anything, as long as they are who they wish to be. Of course our social psychology goes against that...but whatever. :9

Cat calling sucks though, and I didn't realize why it sucked until I moved to the city by myself. It's absolutely terrifying at times. :/

Well in that case, the male or female in question who is stating their definition of what a real woman or real man is should know better because they're doing nothing but reinforcing societal control instead of encouraging people to define themselves the way they want.

That's pretty much what we're battling against right now. Feminism is a movement that frees men and women from by the book definitions of what makes a real man or woman. But if these men or women want to be traditional, they have that right too because that's what speaks to them, it's who they are.

As long as they aren't waving their word around as if it's law, they're free to do as they please.

Yeah, cat calling is the worst. It's very humiliating. I don't ever feel flattered, I always feel dehumanized...

 

[PseudoKirby]

She has a point with that No More Heros one. and the god of war one... wtf..


but MOST of the scenes used are either historically accurate or equal treatment between men and women.


I just dont understand how when something involves a woman in a game it needs deep theology and analysis about why or what it is, but if its the same situation but with a man, no thought is spent on it whatsoever.

 

[The Technomancer]

She has a point with that No More Heros one. and the god of war one... wtf..


but MOST of the scenes used are either historically accurate or equal treatment between men and women.

The problem with "historically accurate" is that there aren't any games that are 100% historically accurate (okay maybe some indie thing on PC), so we absolutely can be critical of where developers choose to be accurate or not. For example, historical accuracy gets tossed aside all the time in favor of enabling the players power fantasy in some way.

I just dont understand how when something involves a woman in a game it needs deep theology and analysis about why or what it is, but if its the same situation but with a man, no thought is spent on it whatsoever.

If you want to make an argument that men also face similar issues in games, go for it. You're just going to have a much harder time constructing a persuasive case that men are consistently marginalized in games the same way. Men get to be lots of things, from cannon fodder to background objects to complex characters. Women far less so

 

[unbias]

stuff

Ya, what she says, honestly, isnt really offensive at all, even if you disagree with her outlook. Regardless of her talking points, she is highlighting terrible narrative in plots that only undermine the narrative at the expense of women(because terrorizing women is so shocking and lazy and easy to use to cover up the fact that your narrative is horrible, apparently).

What she shows and what MrBtongue shows, is a pretty systemic issue in development, I think.

 

[PseudoKirby]

I am not sure how something being fantasy for how a game is played overwrites how the environment is portrayed. the "power fantasy" is overall how any action game is set. if it were realistic it wouldn't be an action game. because thats what everyone wants to do, is stuff they couldnt in real life.

I feel like I am just saying obvious things, I hate my ineffective communication, Its frustrating because I cant convey what I mean to say, for fear of it being taken wrong and offending or being banned.

If you want to make an argument that men also face similar issues in games, go for it. You're just going to have a much harder time constructing a persuasive case that men are consistently marginalized in games the same way. Men get to be lots of things, from cannon fodder to background objects to complex characters. Women far less so

I can wholeheartedly agree that we need more complex characters that are females, ones that arent overly sexualized.

 

[blankempathy]

She has a point with that No More Heros one. and the god of war one... wtf..


but MOST of the scenes used are either historically accurate or equal treatment between men and women.


I just dont understand how when something involves a woman in a game it needs deep theology and analysis about why or what it is, but if its the same situation but with a man, no thought is spent on it whatsoever.

Meh the god of war one doesn't work to me because Kratos treated her rather nicely all things considered. If it were man he would of killed him and jammed him into the switch himself. My problem with all characters genders being represented accurately is this. Sometimes I and most other people like stuff thats other the top. Sometimes I just want to turn off my mind and watch movies like Dredd or play video games where I know that these portrayel of characters are merely there to fit a narrative and not to be taken seriously. Should there be better representation of men and women in media? Yes but I'm not going to make a big deal about no more heroes 2. Is it tasteless and degrading to women? Yes but the entire game is full of insulting over the top stereo types. Its a turn off your brain and just play kind of game and have fun.

 

[The Technomancer]

I am not sure how something being fantasy for how a game is played overwrites how the environment is portrayed. the "power fantasy" is overall how any action game is set. if it were realistic it wouldn't be an action game. because thats what everyone wants to do, is stuff they couldnt in real life.

I feel like I am just saying obvious things, I hate my ineffective communication, Its frustrating because I cant convey what I mean to say, for fear of it being taken wrong and offending or being banned.
.

All I'm saying is that you admitted it yourself: the historical "depictions" in these games are already fantastical. Developers are already making decisions about what to be accurate about and what not to be. And since they are making those decisions, since they don't have to depict women in shitty ways because they're trying to make a historical game, then we can be critical of those choices that they make. Okay its not just the power fantasy, these historical games even in setting are compromised pretty far from how things actually were.

These depictions don't exist because of a need for historical accuracy, they exist because the developers want to add "historical flavor", and thats exactly her point: that these women being abused are just background decoration, part of the scenery.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

People seem to be fundamentally missing the point of these videos. (I admit, I didn't like the earlier videos as much as the new ones for a variety of reasons)

The videos are not analysis, they are documentation.

The point of these videos is to say:

"Look at this."

"Ok, that's just one example."

"Look at this as well. It's from a critically acclaimed game that sold well!"

"Ok, that's two examples."

"Then look at this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And this."

The videos are repetitive - that's the point. The video content is repetitive because the video game content repeats across so many games. These videos are weak when they make claims like that Nintendo popularized the "save the princess" trope. These videos are strong when they are just a never-ending avalanche of examples.

When they first showed off Dishonered the level they showed was a brothel. "Here's a look at our generic main hero guy sneaking into a whorehouse where he can then steam women to death" Oh - so it's like dozens of other AAA video games? That was my reaction. That kind of scenario should come off as a specific choice, instead it's a lazy convention.

If you want to show how action movies have a lot of dumb one-liners in them you make a super-cut of one liners. That's the best thing next to an exhaustive quantitative analysis. If you want to show that video games have a gender problem you make what is effectively an hours-long super-cut of women being prostitutes, getting diced up, crush to death, raped, avenged, rescued, etc.

It would be great if someone made a video series of deep analysis. That's a different series. This series is documentation. This series is meant to bury people in so many pieces of anecdotal evidence that they can't all be brushed off as purely anecdotal.

The point of these videos is for game players and developers to ask themselves "why do so many of these games have this crap in them?" And even if that crap isn't warping minds or destroying women if nothing else it's incredibly lazy.

That scene in her video of a Mafia game where they fight as a dead stripper lies on the ground? That exact same scene exists in The Getaway. It probably exists in a dozen other games. Why? Even if you don't see a sexism problem at least see an originality problem.

Edit: As far as "maybe a different video series would be better." Sure. That's always the case. If someone complains about video games you can say "but what about Ferguson? Then if they complain about Ferguson you can say "but what about Liberia?"

There are always more important problems. There are always better approaches - if you identify a better approach then take it. Otherwise this is what we've got. It's not the best. It has issues. But to me it's clearly a net positive. If video game makers watch these videos and think "god we really are a bunch of lazy fucks and it sure does look like we don't respect women much" then mission accomplished.

Once we get this series up and running, we'll show you how it should be done, bud. ;-)

EDIT: And trust me when I say that we're going to push forward an unprecedented level of game critique. I spent the better part of tonight mapping it out. We're going to do something that'll send shockwaves through the industry...at least, I hope so. Lol

 

[PseudoKirby]

All I'm saying is that you admitted it yourself: the historical "depictions" in these games are already fantastical. Developers are already making decisions about what to be accurate about and what not to be. And since they are making those decisions, since they don't have to depict women in shitty ways because they're trying to make a historical game, then we can be critical of those choices that they make. Okay its not just the power fantasy, these historical games even in setting are compromised pretty far from how things actually were.

These depictions don't exist because of a need for historical accuracy, they exist because the developers want to add "historical flavor", and thats exactly her point: that these women being abused are just background decoration, part of the scenery.

Can you please give me another example of something thats in the setting or characters that is not historically accurate?
nothing that has to do with gameplay mechanics

 

[unbias]

These depictions don't exist because of a need for historical accuracy, they exist because the developers want to add "historical flavor", and thats exactly her point: that these women being abused are just background decoration, part of the scenery.

I dont agree. I think they just want to be edgy, because edgy is what you do. Women being abused is "edgy" and gives you a clear good vs bad, and I think they hope to stir in you what the actual narrative couldn't. I think saying they are doing it for historical accuracy is giving them far to much credit, they aren't doing it for historical accurac. They are doing it because it is a cheap way to draw out a feeling from "edginess". Since male gamers are the majority of the audience, a lot of the time, writing to pissing off the dude is better then admitting your narrative is shit and improving it.

 

[JMargaris]

She has a point with that No More Heros one. and the god of war one... wtf..

Having played NMH2 I don't find that scene objectionable at all. I read it as a deliberate play on Bond Films and similar things, for example this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJa1BCz9Tuc

(By the way, Bond films are fucking gross!)

But that's the point of using so many examples. I don't find the NMH2 scene objectionable taken in isolation, there's a context to me in which it makes sense. But then you see a million other examples of the same thing, and even if they all have some justifiable context on some level (It's parody! It's purposely a trope! It's historically accurate!) there's no context in which the sum total makes sense. When there are so many examples it looks a little fishy.

All I'm saying is that you admitted it yourself: the historical "depictions" in these games are already fantastical.

I think what happens here is someone is writing a book on the mob in the 70s. They do some research and find out that some key decisions were made at a strip joint, then put that in their book. Then someone makes a movie about the mob and includes a similar scene. Then, in the 80s, someone makes a cop drama, and they include a similar scene, because they saw that movie. This new movie isn't about the mob but hey, it features two men meeting over drinks, so why not make it similar to that scene? Now people going to a strip club to make important decisions has become a thing. And if you set a scene in a strip club you get to show strippers, which male viewers like.

At this point when you include a scene in a strip club you aren't doing it to be historically accurate or authentic to real life, you're doing it to be accurate to a fantastical depiction of life. You're conforming to the established portrayal, which is now entirely divorced from whatever authentic origin it may have had.

In short it's "this is a thing that happens in products like mine so it will happen in mine as well."

It's possible to write an entire novel or movie based only on that sort of logic. "Well in movies like these there's a love interest, and she fights with the male main character, but at a pivotal moment she slaps him, they stare at each other, then they kiss."

 

[HeelPower]

If a woman likes her body and wants to show it off, how is she any different than a man who does the same? It's ironic considering the man wouldn't be told he's reinforcing negative perceptions of men.

There is a deep misunderstanding here.

I amnot saying people should be commanded to wear certain clothes or act in a certain way. I amnot trying to normalize or force a certain dress code or way of life here.

I am discussing people(be it men or women)who continue to promote and emphasize the sexual objectification of women that's so deeply entrenched in the human mind.

Your view about freedom is simply not realistic.You can't assume that everyone's minds are free of preconceptions about women and men.Especially when you consider that men AND women have long had 9and still do have)certain profiles in their heads about what it means to be a man or a woman.

Your view doesn't even take into account the millions of women around the world who are simply aren't on equal grounds with men.

The most noble aim is to ensure that equality truly exists among men and women.Equality in the work place,the street, the home,financial independence and equality, ethical equality etc..

I specifically talked in my previous post about people of power and influence in society who care about little else than selling the female body and mind and degrading it to nothing than more than sexuality i.e objectification.

I am against that because it feeds on what ALREADY EXISTS in the male and female mind about the femaleness :that women are to be assessed primarily on basis of beauty and sexual ability.

I wish for a world to exists where women are viewed purely on basis of meritocracy and equality the same way these values are more accepted when it comes to evaluating men.

Its wrong for both men and women to objectify women.The same way its wrong for a black person to reinforce concepts of classical racism against black people.Implicit racism against people of colour and implicit sexism against women STILL exist to this day.You can't assume that they've been purged completely from the human mind.Biases against women strongly exist to this day.Both implicitly and explicitly depending on where you live.

Also this post has some ideas I was trying to convey

I think he/she means that if someone says only sexy women are real women, it can cause more women to nit pick their bodies into a complete mess. Especially young impressionable girls and girls with percieved "undesirable" ethnicity and girls with obesity/acne etc. A lot of women tie their worth to that sort of thing and it's not very healthy.

Likewise if a man insinuates that doing certain things makes you a "real man" he is causing a lot of other men to go after material things to garner their sense of worth. It also makes them hyper sensitive to any percieved girly or gayness they may see within themselves and other boys/men around them.

Both men and women suffer from bad body image or self esteem for the same reasons. It's bad and I don't like seeing people chase after what looks to be artificial happiness as oppose to individualization and an appreciation for who they already naturally are.

A man or woman doesn't have to be anything, as long as they are who they wish to be. Of course our social psychology goes against that...but whatever. :9

Cat calling sucks though, and I didn't realize why it sucked until I moved to the city by myself. It's absolutely terrifying at times. :/

I made my point as clear as possible.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Having played NMH2 I don't find that scene objectionable at all. I read it as a deliberate play on Bond Films and similar things, for example this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJa1BCz9Tuc

(By the way, Bond films are fucking gross!)

But that's the point of using so many examples. I don't find the NMH2 scene objectionable taken in isolation, there's a context to me in which it makes sense. But then you see a million other examples of the same thing, and even if they all have some justifiable context on some level (It's parody! It's purposely a trope! It's historically accurate!) there's no context in which the sum total makes sense. When there are so many examples it looks a little fishy.

I'm still sort of ambivalent about Sarkeesian's project. There are some things that I find flagrantly objectionable (the God of War trophy). There's a lot of stuff I think isn't that bad, or isn't bad at all. I understand the argument that a critical mass of sort of bad stuff is a problem, but there's a critical mass of sort of bad stuff basically across popular culture, and it seems somewhat strange to focus fire on games in this way. But then again, I care about games more than I care about the rest of popular culture, so I'm happy this is a discussion that's happening for that reason.

Overall I find her methodology to be pretty lacking, though. Simply demonstrating that negative depictions of women are common in games doesn't really do anything for me, though I'll acknowledge it's helpful for some people. I'd like to see a more rigorous analysis of individual depictions or individual games.

 

[unbias]

I'm still sort of ambivalent about Sarkeesian's project. There are some things that I find flagrantly objectionable (the God of War trophy). There's a lot of stuff I think isn't that bad, or isn't bad at all. I understand the argument that a critical mass of sort of bad stuff is a problem, but there's a critical mass of sort of bad stuff basically across popular culture, and it seems somewhat strange to focus fire on games in this way. But then again, I care about games more than I care about the rest of popular culture, so I'm happy this is a discussion that's happening for that reason.

Overall I find her methodology to be pretty lacking, though. Simply demonstrating that negative depictions of women are common in games doesn't really do anything for me, though I'll acknowledge it's helpful for some people. I'd like to see a more rigorous analysis of individual depictions or individual games.

But did the stuff she show, regardless of context, make the game better for the stuff being in it? Regardless of her assertions, I think she does a good job at showing reality based game narrative is pretty bad. I'd say if you dislike her assertions, but agree that the violence has gotten absurd to the point of making narrative worse, that you can use her agenda to spread your own. Would seem both agenda's could win, better narrative.

 

[John Rabbit]

Having played NMH2 I don't find that scene objectionable at all. I read it as a deliberate play on Bond Films and similar things, for example this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJa1BCz9Tuc

(By the way, Bond films are fucking gross!)

But that's the point of using so many examples. I don't find the NMH2 scene objectionable taken in isolation, there's a context to me in which it makes sense. But then you see a million other examples of the same thing, and even if they all have some justifiable context on some level (It's parody! It's purposely a trope! It's historically accurate!) there's no context in which the sum total makes sense. When there are so many examples it looks a little fishy.

context is not a cure-all excuse though. it's likely a majority of gamers who played NMH2 don't have the knowledge of Bond/espionage films or if they do, did not make the connection. without that context, it's a scene in which a woman is violently murdered at the hands of two men (albeit to the point of cartoonish excess). whether or not the scene has context, or if the intention of the scene is to marginalize and objectify women, the end result is still the visual.

that's the point of serving up so many examples. context or no, it's a massive pile of [woman is marginalized/objectified and then violated, beaten, raped, murdered, et al] over and over again. i feel like it's Sarkeesian's suppostion that despite intent/context, merely viewing these images has a detrimental effect on attitudes toward's women. it creates a limited space in which women can be viewed.

in the same sense that if you didn't know what a chair was, you could infer what to do with it by seeing how other people interacted with it. after enough time or exposure to visual stimuli eventually you would come to see a chair as having almost no other possible use or purpose than for what everyone else around you uses them for. similarly, by literally equating women with 'decoration' in the video titles, Sarkeesian seems to make the same point.

 

[blankempathy]

context is not a cure-all excuse though. it's likely a majority of gamers who played NMH2 don't have the knowledge of Bond/espionage films or if they do, did not make the connection. without that context, it's a scene in which a woman is violently murdered at the hands of two men (albeit to the point of cartoonish excess). whether or not the scene has context, or if the intention of the scene is to marginalize and objectify women, the end result is still the visual.

that's the point of serving up so many examples. context or no, it's a massive pile of [woman is marginalized/objectified and then violated, beaten, raped, murdered, et al] over and over again. i feel like it's Sarkeesian's suppostion that despite intent/context, merely viewing these images has a detrimental effect on attitudes toward's women. it creates a limited space in which women can be viewed.

in the same sense that if you didn't know what a chair was, you could infer what to do with it by seeing how other people interacted with it. after enough time or exposure to visual stimuli eventually you would come to see a chair as having almost no other possible use or purpose than for what everyone else around you uses them for. similarly, by literally equating women with 'decoration' in the video titles, Sarkeesian seems to make the same point.

So video games are going to make me treat women poorly then? Considering these are all adult rated games anyone with a functioning brain isn't going to use video games as guide to function in society. I guess devs need to use their games to educate people because apparently parents lack the ability. Hell I dont think I even need to be told by my parents to not treat women like dirt.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

But did the stuff she show, regardless of context, make the game better for the stuff being in it?

I think the Dragon Age city elf origin was a worthwhile part of the game, and I'm glad they tried to handle such a delicate subject (even if it was obviously beyond their capabilities as writers at times). The Bioshock scene also seemed worthwhile. The random prostitute knifings in Red Dead I didn't even notice, so I don't know that they made the game better or worse.

I don't know, I guess I'm not in the habit of asking if individual scenes in a game (or a movie or a TV show etc) really needed to be there except where they are having a very clearly detrimental effect. Like, do all the naked women in Game of Thrones really need to be in the show? No, obviously not. But I don't think that's enough for me to say that I'd actively prefer they weren't there.

Regardless of her assertions, I think she does a good job at showing reality based game narrative is pretty bad. I'd say if you dislike her assertions, but agree that the violence has gotten absurd to the point of making narrative worse, that you can use her agenda to spread your own. Would seem both agenda's could win, better narrative.

I'm not sure what my agenda is, honestly. I'd like games to have better writing across the board, I guess, and this is a small part of that. But if all the negative tropes about women suddenly went away the overall quality of writing (and voice acting) in games would still be frankly terrible. That's something that you'd need to replace most of the writers at most of the major studios to fix - you can teach them not to overuse dead prostitutes, you can't teach them to not write poorly.

 

[John Rabbit]

So video games are going to make me treat women poorly then? Considering these are all adult rated games anyone with a functioning brain isn't going to use video games as guide to function in society. I guess devs need to use their games to educate people because apparently parents lack the ability. Hell I dont think I even need to be told by my parents to not treat women like dirt.

are you under the impression that only legal adults play adult rated games? Sarkeesian's videos (or me) are not out to suggest that videogames are capable of drastically modifying an adult's behavior so as to be like brainwashing.

but in the hands of a pubescent boy?
or a young girl?

they don't know what "gender roles" are yet (jesus, most adults don't either). they (hopefully) don't know what sexual predators are, or what constitutes rape. and if they do? look at the horrendous examples they have in real-life, let alone TV, movies, music and videogames.

videogames are NOT the sole cause of society's ills, or misogyny, or racism. but do they, by and large, do a completely abhorrent job of reinforcing positive attitudes about women? absolutely. is the goal of Sarkeesian's project to point this out? i think we can safely say yes.

 

[zeldablue]

Can you please give me another example of something thats in the setting or characters that is not historically accurate?
nothing that has to do with gameplay mechanics

I had this conversation earlier...

It was about how Kratos should be actively presuing and having sex with young boys and men ages 12 to 16 because pederasty was a big part of Grecian societal culture and religion.

Why doesn't Kratos have sex with sexy young boys instead of topless women? Is it because we don't actually care about accuracy?

Yes.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I had this conversation earlier.

About how Kratos should be actively presuing and saving sex with young boys and men ages 12 to 16 because pederasty was a big part of Grecian societal culture and religion.

Why doesn't Kratos have sex with young boys instead of topless women? Is it because we don't actually care about accuracy?

Yes.

OK, but let's be frank: God of War doesn't give a shit about historical accuracy. It's not that kind of game. What about a game like Red Dead?

 

[zeldablue]

OK, but let's be frank: God of War doesn't give a shit about historical accuracy. It's not that kind of game. What about a game like Red Dead?

Have you seen True Grit? It's a really great film.

If you live in a tough society, there's a good chance the women and girls would be super tough too.

Edit: http://www.discoveryuk.com/web/the-true-story/about/true-grit/

For more clarification... The Wild West gave room for non conforming women to funnel in before feminism was a thing. So there were girls and women who ran around without giving much thought into their role of being women.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

I'm still sort of ambivalent about Sarkeesian's project. There are some things that I find flagrantly objectionable (the God of War trophy). There's a lot of stuff I think isn't that bad, or isn't bad at all. I understand the argument that a critical mass of sort of bad stuff is a problem, but there's a critical mass of sort of bad stuff basically across popular culture, and it seems somewhat strange to focus fire on games in this way. But then again, I care about games more than I care about the rest of popular culture, so I'm happy this is a discussion that's happening for that reason.

Overall I find her methodology to be pretty lacking, though. Simply demonstrating that negative depictions of women are common in games doesn't really do anything for me, though I'll acknowledge it's helpful for some people. I'd like to see a more rigorous analysis of individual depictions or individual games.

You seem to have a lot of opinions and know-how about how to undertake methodology better. I hope you will get involved with the GAF-based video series (the one referred to by the blue jihad on this page). I'd like to see this "more rigorous analysis of individual depictions or individual games" and I'd like to see how it would be able to address the issue of women's representation in video games better.

 

[unbias]

I think the Dragon Age city elf origin was a worthwhile part of the game, and I'm glad they tried to handle such a delicate subject (even if it was obviously beyond their capabilities as writers at times). The Bioshock scene also seemed worthwhile. The random prostitute knifings in Red Dead I didn't even notice, so I don't know that they made the game better or worse.

I don't know, I guess I'm not in the habit of asking if individual scenes in a game (or a movie or a TV show etc) really needed to be there except where they are having a very clearly detrimental effect. Like, do all the naked women in Game of Thrones really need to be in the show? No, obviously not. But I don't think that's enough for me to say that I'd actively prefer they weren't there.



I'm not sure what my agenda is, honestly. I'd like games to have better writing across the board, I guess, and this is a small part of that. But if all the negative tropes about women suddenly went away the overall quality of writing (and voice acting) in games would still be frankly terrible. That's something that you'd need to replace most of the writers at most of the major studios to fix - you can teach them not to overuse dead prostitutes, you can't teach them to not write poorly.

I guess I dont agree with the outcome of her video's doing enough to get of what you are talking about, all together out of games, so I see no need to worry. I think at best, her video's will make people pay more attention to the context of the stuff in games. I think by hammering them, for the most part giving us C tier movie production in narrative, they will be able to handle sex, like in game of thrones(where women still love it).

I just think there is too much demand for shock for it to go away completely, but I think their narrative is bad enough that it can be improved. And yes, I agree, you can only get better with experimentation, Dragon Age and Bioshock are good examples, but I think they are more of an exception. At the same time though, remember, we are talking about a very small fraction of games, compared to the whole of the game industry.

 

[blankempathy]

are you under the impression that only legal adults play adult rated games? Sarkeesian's videos (or me) are not out to suggest that videogames are capable of drastically modifying an adult's behavior so as to be like brainwashing.

but in the hands of a pubescent boy?
or a young girl?

they don't know what "gender roles" are yet (jesus, most adults don't either). they (hopefully) don't know what sexual predators are, or what constitutes rape. and if they do? look at the horrendous examples they have in real-life, let alone TV, movies, music and videogames.

videogames are NOT the sole cause of society's ills, or misogyny, or racism. but do they, by and large, do a completely abhorrent job of reinforcing positive attitudes about women? absolutely. is the goal of Sarkeesian's project to point this out? i think we can safely say yes.

Thats why I said is it up to the devs to educate people now? Because parents have failed their role so now we must keep all "bad stuff" like women being treated badly while leaving in the violence and murder of men that routinely happens in most AAA games? Censorship for all because hey you parents can't do your jobs.

 

[JMargaris]

I had this conversation earlier...

It was about how Kratos should be actively presuing and having sex with young boys and men ages 12 to 16 because pederasty was a big part of Grecian societal culture and religion.

Why doesn't Kratos have sex with sexy young boys instead of topless women? Is it because we don't actually care about accuracy?

In God of War 1 Kratos uses Pandora's Box as a Mario mushroom to grow big.

The series is not accurate to history or myths at all. David Jaffe even said as much:

So we did a lot of research, but then after we did the research, the game itself isn’t a history lesson—it’s really us taking the greatest hits of Greek mythology and telling our own story using those, because really the main goal is to make it entertaining, and the secondary goal is to deal with that subject matter. So if you’re going into the game looking for an accurate portrayal of the Greek myths, you’ll probably be a little disappointed. But if you’re into the subject matter and you want a really good, entertaining time, it’s probably up your alley.

Sorry folks, but there's no way you can invoke the accuracy excuse when the author himself rejects it.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

are you under the impression that only legal adults play adult rated games? Sarkeesian's videos (or me) are not out to suggest that videogames are capable of drastically modifying an adult's behavior so as to be like brainwashing.

but in the hands of a pubescent boy?
or a young girl?

they don't know what "gender roles" are yet (jesus, most adults don't either). they (hopefully) don't know what sexual predators are, or what constitutes rape. and if they do? look at the horrendous examples they have in real-life, let alone TV, movies, music and videogames.

videogames are NOT the sole cause of society's ills, or misogyny, or racism. but do they, by and large, do a completely abhorrent job of reinforcing positive attitudes about women? absolutely. is the goal of Sarkeesian's project to point this out? i think we can safely say yes.

I feel this isn't a legitimate reason. That is a responsibility for parents or appropriate, not game developers, of which are adults creating and designing games rated for an adult audience. There perhaps is a seperate issue with the ESRB not being well known enough to parents and such for them to understand what they are giving/allowing their kids to play.

 

[unbias]

are you under the impression that only legal adults play adult rated games? Sarkeesian's videos (or me) are not out to suggest that videogames are capable of drastically modifying an adult's behavior so as to be like brainwashing.

but in the hands of a pubescent boy?
or a young girl?

they don't know what "gender roles" are yet (jesus, most adults don't either). they (hopefully) don't know what sexual predators are, or what constitutes rape. and if they do? look at the horrendous examples they have in real-life, let alone TV, movies, music and videogames.

videogames are NOT the sole cause of society's ills, or misogyny, or racism. but do they, by and large, do a completely abhorrent job of reinforcing positive attitudes about women? absolutely. is the goal of Sarkeesian's project to point this out? i think we can safely say yes.

I think blaming games by and large, for a small % of shit narrative is not fair to all the good games out there or at least ones that dont give off bad sterotypes about women. And it also, I think, distracts from the games that actually do, do this.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Have you seen True Grit? It's a really great film.

If you live in a tough society, there's a good chance the women and girls would be super tough too.

Edit: http://www.discoveryuk.com/web/the-true-story/about/true-grit/

For more clarification... The Wild West gave room for non conforming women to funnel in before feminism was a thing. So there were girls and women who ran around without giving much thought into their role of being women.

But Red Dead has tough female characters. Look at Bonnie MacFarlane.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Have you seen True Grit? It's a really great film.

If you live in a tough society, there's a good chance the women and girls would be super tough too.

Edit: http://www.discoveryuk.com/web/the-true-story/about/true-grit/

For more clarification... The Wild West gave room for non conforming women to funnel in before feminism was a thing. So there were girls and women who ran around without giving much thought into their role of being women.

But RDR has these tough female characters as well?

Edit: beaten

 

[zeldablue]

But Red Dead has tough female characters. Look at Bonnie MacFarlane.

Maybe they need to balance out the Bonnies with the helpless victim characters? What's the ratio in terms of gameplay?

Or even leave them out for something more interesting?

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

You seem to have a lot of opinions and know-how about how to undertake methodology better. I hope you will get involved with the GAF-based video series (the one referred to by the blue jihad on this page). I'd like to see this "more rigorous analysis of individual depictions or individual games" and I'd like to see how it would be able to address the issue of women's representation in video games better.

I mean, yes and no. I'm a historian, not a critical theorist. I know shitty critical theory when I see it, I'd like to think, but when it comes to actually doing it right I'm not really qualified. But I'll be participating in Neogaf's Game Criticism Done Right project to the best of my ability.

Maybe they need to balance out the Bonnies with the helpless victim characters? What's the ratio in terms of gameplay?

Or even leave them out for something more interesting?

I mean in terms of facetime Bonnie is by far the female character who shows up the most. I think this is part of my problem with Sarkeesian's methodology: to me it matters if a given game on the whole is doing an OK job or not, so I view it as misleading when she talks about a super minor mechanic like random prostitute knifings and then totally ignores a strong female character in the narrative. To her it only seems to matter that the industry as a whole is doing a bad job, so it's irrelevant to bring up examples of what the games she talks about are doing right.

 

[John Rabbit]

I feel this isn't a legitimate reason. That is a responsibility for parents or appropriate, not game developers, of which are adults creating and designing games rated for an adult audience. There perhaps is a seperate issue with the ESRB not being well known enough to parents and such for them to understand what they are giving/allowing their kids to play.

at some point the cycle is broken. if the result of someone viewing Anita's videos today means they go on to have little boys who grow up to view women as equals and little girls who aren't pressured to conform to one of a minute number of stereotypes, then i think the endeavor is worth it.

it's an important problem that's worth documenting regardless of her or anyone's reasoning.

I think blaming games by and large, for a small % of shit narrative is not fair to all the good games out there or at least ones that dont give off bad sterotypes about women. And it also, I think, distracts from the games that actually do, do this.

it's a good thing Anita Sarkeesian isn't blaming games as a medium. much like she doesn't blame the entirety film as a medium in her film critiques.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Maybe they need to balance out the Bonnies with the helpless victim characters? What's the ratio in terms of gameplay?

Or even leave them out for something more interesting?

The "Bonnies" are mostly seen in story cutscenes and a couple of missions. However they are probably in the top 5 of the most important characters within the game. Helpless victim characters spring up randomly around the game world. They usually involve a single man or woman getting harrased by bandits, player shoots bandits, side quest over. In terms of actual prosititute savings, I honestly couldn't tell you. All in all, the helpless victims are probably seen more often, to the point where I would often skip them to get to main story missions.

 

[unbias]

it's a good thing Anita Sarkeesian isn't blaming games as a medium. much like she doesn't blame the entirety film as a medium in her film critiques.

No, she did not. I agree.

videogames are NOT the sole cause of society's ills, or misogyny, or racism. but do they, by and large, do a completely abhorrent job of reinforcing positive attitudes about women? absolutely. is the goal of Sarkeesian's project to point this out? i think we can safely say yes.

 

[zeldablue]

I mean, yes and no. I'm a historian, not a critical theorist. I know shitty critical theory when I see it, I'd like to think, but when it comes to actually doing it right I'm not really qualified. But I'll be participating in Neogaf's Game Criticism Done Right project to the best of my ability.



I mean in terms of facetime Bonnie is by far the female character who shows up the most. I think this is part of my problem with Sarkeesian's methodology: to me it matters if a given game on the whole is doing an OK job or not, so I view it as misleading when she talks about a super minor mechanic like random prostitute knifings and then totally ignores a strong female character in the narrative. To her it only seems to matter that the industry as a whole is doing a bad job, so it's irrelevant to bring up examples of what the games she talks about are doing right.

I mean, if you've ever been told to do heavy critique on someone's work, whether it's art, design or whatever...you talk about the things that could be done better, as oppose to what is already done right. Does that make sense?

If your work has awesome coloration, composition but the hand is a bit wonky, most of my criticism would be about the wonky hand...

I also don't think you'd see many scantily clad characters in a random western setting. I'd be unacceptable to walk around like that.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I mean, if you've ever been told to do heavy critique on someone's work, whether it's art, design or whatever...you talk about the things that could be done better, as oppose to what is already done right. Does that make sense?

If your work has awesome coloration, composition but the hand is a bit wonky, most of my criticism would be about the wonky hand...

I also don't think you'd see many scantily clad characters in a random western setting. I'd be unacceptable to walk around like that.

I don't know, that's certainly not my style when grading student papers, you know? And I'm glad it's not my advisor's style when going over my work. To me it's just as important to tell someone what they're doing right as it is to tell them what they're doing wrong.

 

[zeldablue]

I don't know, that's certainly not my style when grading student papers, you know? And I'm glad it's not my advisor's style when going over my work. To me it's just as important to tell someone what they're doing right as it is to tell them what they're doing wrong.

I went to an art school that was brutal with critique. If your work was REALLY good that meant that you would get the harshest critique. If your work sucked, no one would even say anything.

The harshness was a way of showing assurance. They were being that critical because they saw the amazing potential of how good it could be, if a few small minor things were fixed. There was no sugar coating and no room for emotions or egos getting hurt.

Even watching Yahtzees review of TLoU makes sense too. He judges the game with a higher level of criticism because he clearly sees the game is trying hard to be really good.
He judges it accordingly without much praise.

Just my perspective as a designer.

 

[PseudoKirby]

I had this conversation earlier...

It was about how Kratos should be actively presuing and having sex with young boys and men ages 12 to 16 because pederasty was a big part of Grecian societal culture and religion.

Why doesn't Kratos have sex with sexy young boys instead of topless women? Is it because we don't actually care about accuracy?

Yes.

Yea, go ahead and tear God Of War apart, I havnt liked anything that game has done.

 

[unbias]

I went to an art school that was brutal with critique. If your work was REALLY good that meant that you would get the harshest critique.

The harshness was a way of showing assurance. They were being that critical because they say the amazing potential of how good it could be, if a few small minor things were fixed.

Just my perspective as a designer.

Ha, ha, I have to agree, my professors were brutal, but I went into financing... Although mine were not doing it as a way of showing assurance, I'm kinda jealous.

 

[zeldablue]

Ha, ha, I have to agree, my professors were brutal, but I went into financing... Although mine were not doing it as a way of showing assurance, I'm kinda jealous.

I get butthurt when my writing is criticized. ;__;

But I'm totally happy to get my design or art work blasted with criticism. Like the Saints Row guy said, it's important to be self reflective and take criticism well.

Unfortunately that is not an easy gift to have, when many works are usually so close to our hearts. (Especially for passionate gamers) Being super defensive shows an unwillingness to improve and seek more perspective though. It's a hard toss up.

 

[unbias]

I get butthurt when my writing is criticized. ;__;

But I'm totally happy to get my design or art work blasted with criticism. Like the Saints Row guy said, it's important to be self reflective and take criticism well.

Unfortunately that is not an easy gift to have, when many works are usually so close to our hearts. (Especially for passionate gamers) Being super defensive shows an unwillingness to improve and seek more perspective though. It's a hard toss up.

True, but good luck figuring out who is the defensive and who is simply the critical.

I had a lot of heated arguments with a couple professors of mine, and they lost their shit, anytime I had a point they couldn't argue back(immediately), without trying to do the tried and true overwhelm you with telling you every book that tells you you're wrong, then just saying "it's in there".

 

[Gorger]

I mean in terms of facetime Bonnie is by far the female character who shows up the most. I think this is part of my problem with Sarkeesian's methodology: to me it matters if a given game on the whole is doing an OK job or not, so I view it as misleading when she talks about a super minor mechanic like random prostitute knifings and then totally ignores a strong female character in the narrative. To her it only seems to matter that the industry as a whole is doing a bad job, so it's irrelevant to bring up examples of what the games she talks about are doing right.

I agree here, actually I could probably list a ton of more games than her where females are portrayed positively instead.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I agree here, actually I could probably list a ton of more games than her where females are portrayed positively instead.

Please list all games where women are portrayed positively and then all games where men are portrayed positively.

 

[Brakke]

I never really played Red Dead, just watched my roommate play it a bunch. Were there ladies in the canon fodder / goon posses? I know you fight Mexican Army goons for a while, so those wouldn't be women, but what about just generic member-of-gang? That was super weak in The Last of Us that all the goons were dudes.
on some level (It's parody! It's purposely a trope! It's historically accurate!) there's no context in which the sum total makes sense. When there are so many examples it looks a little fishy.

Thats why I said is it up to the devs to educate people now? Because parents have failed their role so now we must keep all "bad stuff" like women being treated badly while leaving in the violence and murder of men that routinely happens in most AAA games? Censorship for all because hey you parents can't do your jobs.

I mean, games are educating people right now. Anything put out in mass media educates at least one person. Probably a bunch.