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Next-gen, developers should concentrate mostly on locking framerates...

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Gregory said:
However, as a rule, 30fps makes games look blurry. 60fps is twice as fluid movement and makes everything look sharper as a result.

Exactly! This is why I assumed the hard drive replays were 60fps. Is it possible that early retail runs of RSC2 still had this "glitch" in there? Was it definitely verified that all replays were 30fps no matter what? There is just too much of a clear difference for it just to be a big mistake on my part.
 

Lazy8s

The ghost of Dreamcast past
To really get the full advantage from 60 fps, a game has to be able to output full resolution at each 60 hz refresh. While a standard NTSC TV does update at each 60th of a second and thus shows a difference between games at 30 fps and at 60 fps, it's update is of only half the screen. So, a game like Gran Turismo 3 with a half-height display buffer is limited to an NTSC TV and only outputs half the image running at 60 fps, while a non-interlaced game like Rallisport Challenge 2 has an even better looking 60 fps mode.
 

Gregory

Banned
bob_arctor said:
Exactly! This is why I assumed the hard drive replays were 60fps. Is it possible that early retail runs of RSC2 still had this "glitch" in there? Was it definitely verified that all replays were 30fps no matter what? There is just too much of a clear difference for it just to be a big mistake on my part.

I haven`t heard anyone with a retail copy of RSC2 getting 60fps replays, everybody say they get 30fps also. But since your don`t I assume some of the earliest copys did in fact have this "glitch". Consider yourself lucky. :)
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Lazy8s said:
To really get the full advantage from 60 fps, a game has to be able to output full resolution at each 60 hz refresh. While a standard NTSC TV does update at each 60th of a second and thus shows a difference between games at 30 fps and at 60 fps, it's update is of only half the screen. So, a game like Gran Turismo 3 with a half-height display buffer is limited to an NTSC TV and only outputs half the image running at 60 fps, while a non-interlaced game like Rallisport Challenge 2 has an even better looking 60 fps mode.

No, you won't see any speed or gameplay differences...just image quality differences.
 

Gregory

Banned
dark10x said:
No, you won't see any speed or gameplay differences...just image quality differences.

True. Plus you need a HDTV to be able to play RSC2 in progressive scan ofcourse (to get non-interlaced 60fps).
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Gregory said:
I haven`t heard anyone with a retail copy of RSC2 getting 60fps replays, everybody say they get 30fps also. But since your don`t I assume some of the earliest copys did in fact have this "glitch". Consider yourself lucky. :)

I'll sit down tonight and test this some more. I'm also borrowing a friends copy tomorrow just to compare them--he got his the 1st week of release as well. Very bizarre though...
 

FightyF

Banned
It's lighting and overall look is just more realistic than any racer on the market.

I will not dispute your claim as far as "overall look" goes, because that's your opinion. But as far as lighting goes, PGR2 is better than GT3, both technically and artistically. But then again, PGR2 is newer and thus all of it's lighting techniques have the benefit of being more researched and realistic.

This has to be realized, because I expect PD to improve how their lighting is done in GT4.

Also, PGR2 has the benefit of higher polygon counts, which make the vertex lighting less cheap looking, as it does on in GT3. In GT3, you can see all the triangles lit up on the roof/hood of the car, while in PGR2 it looks like one solid mass and it's lighting doesn't look so cheap. To lightmaps in PGR2 apply to nearly everything in the scene. When you look at the buildings, their ledges, window-sills, anything that extrudes casts accurate shadows. My only nitpick is that the railings (added to the map for each race path) and lightposts do not cast shadows. Trees also do not benefit from this raytraced lightmap, so the artist add shadow textures to the road. Have you noticed that these lightmaps are crazy accurate? The raytracing is crazy since it takes into account that if you are between 2 buildings and none are lit by sunlight, that the shadows will be darker. This also applies to under bridges (but that's obvious). It also applies to buildings too, and the fact that it's not simply a one-tone shadow raytraced out of shape, but also out of lighting is simply mind-bogglingly awesome.

Now this all comes back to my earlier comment about the right tradeoffs. Obviously, you don't notice the lighting that much, while I (since I've modelled/programmed 3D demos) can see it clearly. If most gamers are in your position, then PD made the right tradeoffs.

I regularily play 6 player GT3 with my Comp Sci friends, and they notice how much superior PGR2 is to any other game. There are many times where our jaws collectively drop as we view the replays. Judging from this, I think Bizarre made the right tradeoff. At 30 fps, this game is a graphical achievement, a benchmark. At 60 fps, it would have looked like any other game. On the other hand, if this game didn't control at 60fps, it wouldn't have been much of a racing game. :)

Personally, I think the artists at PD have the right idea. They don't have the benefit of all the lighting and tricks the Xbox can pull off, so they rely on smart texturing. I feel that they have the ideology that "unless we can actually do pixel shadows and hold large raytraced lightmaps in memory, let's just fake it". I think it's the correct way of thinking.

We should be comparing games like SEGA GT, and PGR2, because in a lot of ways, SEGA GT represents what PGR2 could have been at 60 fps. Most GT3 fans I know are not impressed with SEGA GT. Yes, it's at 60 fps, but it only has a few good things going for it graphically, and the artists didn't do a great job of capturing a realistic look (while techically, the models are great, effects like the blurring and specular highlighting are fantastic), overall it doesn't do much more than GT3, and as always, the texturework in GT3 is better. GT3 fakes detailed lighting with it's texturework, while SEGA GT purely relied on realtime lighting. Throw in pixel lighting casted from objects that can be applied to itself, and SEGA GT will look a whole lot more realistic...but the framerate is gonna take a hit, no doubt about it. So when Bizarre went the route they did, I felt that they made the right choice, otherwise their game could have looked so much like SEGA GT, but with great backgrounds.
 

GigaDrive

Banned
No, you won't see any speed or gameplay differences...just image quality differences.

nonsense.


try telling that to the millions of Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Gran Turismo, PC FPS, etc. players all over the world.

framerate makes a huge, huge gameplay difference. try playing a 15fps game and a 30fps game. huge difference. it's almost the same difference between 30fps and 60fps.
 

Lazy8s

The ghost of Dreamcast past
dark10x was just arguing that 60 half-way updated frames of an NTSC TV wasn't any different in speed or gameplay than 60 fully-updated frames of a non-interlaced display. No one had actually claimed that they were different in that regard, however.

Gregory:
Plus you need a HDTV to be able to play RSC2 in progressive scan ofcourse (to get non-interlaced 60fps).
... or your common, everyday computer monitor.
 

RiZ III

Member
A lot of N64 games(ex: Goldeneye) had shitty frame rates but you know what? The game still kicked ass.
dry.gif


Gameplay & design >>>>> everything.
 

Fusebox

Banned
You kids are too spoiled, especially you Gunsmoke - a lot of us here grew up playing Atari 2600, Vic 20, VZ200 and Commodore 64. Fuck your framerates, you should bow down every morning and pray thanks that you have more than 16 colours, stereo sound and a sub-5 minute loadtime. Dont try and project your anal frame-rate issues onto people who used to wait 20 minutes for a 4-colour wireframe 3D game to load from tape, we care not about your piddly frames, we care about gameplay.

Fucking whinger.
 
RiZ III said:
A lot of N64 games(ex: Goldeneye) had shitty frame rates but you know what? The game still kicked ass.
dry.gif


Gameplay & design >>>>> everything.

Well one thing with that is alot of people weren't exposed to 60fps framerates during last gen. Just go play something like Timesplitters which is 60fps, and then go and play GE, the difference is framerate is very apparent. I'm not saying GE is unplayable or anything, but the framerate problems toward the gameplay becomes much more apparent when you've played alot of games that run at a faster and smoother framerate.
 

GigaDrive

Banned
yeah that's an exellent point. most people who primarily gamed on Nintendo64 or even Playstation, were used to seeing 20 to 30fps games. although there were plenty of 60fps games on Playstation, most N64 games ran at 20-25 fps and often less. so 30fps games this generation, probably look very good to most N64 gamers.

arcades spoiled me I guess with mostly 60fps games.
 

Pachinko

Member
wow, I haven't seen a framerate whore thread since atleast a week before old gafs demise.

All I care about is consistency in framerate and that it be atleast 24 FPS, anything slower looks almost nausiating , 30 is a nice framerate but I swear most games I see running at 30 FPS nowadays still manage to have slowdown to 15-24 FPS scattered throughout. It looks bad.


3D fighters and racing titles are about the only titles these days which I think require a faster framerate. First person shooter titles not so much , they only need consistency , same with RPGS and even most sports titles.
 
I find that first person shooters are much, much, better at 60 than 30. However, I think that using a controller negates some of that discrepancy. Man, play it on the PC with a mouse and that 30 fps is suicide.
 
60 frames per second:

Looks better to me.

Saves RAM due to models necessarily being less complex.

Saves modeler time for same reason.



Anyone saying "Gameplay is king, not frames per second!" Well... duh. I never saw anyone claim differently. That doesn't change the fact that 60 fps > 30 fps, 1080p > 480p > 480i, DVD > CD, and so on.
 
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