XcloudTimdog
Banned
Takehome is the program Xbox uses to test products.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
- Status
FranXico
Member
That's not how MS operates though. They literally buy their way into any market they wish to control.
TBiddy
Member
Try stresstesting 3 stacked normal consoles and see what happens.
You can always eat some mushrooms and play Nintendo.
Mass Shift
Member
Well this is more or less what I expected because I KNEW people were going to start posting higher specs for PS5. And this is the ONE THING that has me wondering why?
Everytime anyone even suggests that Xbox might have the TF advantage, you have a whole new squad of posts rushing in to edge the PS5 higher.
It isn't just enough that we're talking about 12TF devices now. I mean just think about that for a moment. Both consoles would surpass 1080ti /2080 performance. There's nothing left to fight over if both consoles are going to be in that performance range.
I mean seriously, even the biggest die-hard can relax and stop being concerned about power at this point. So if MS had the higher better spec number this time, just deal with it. There's no further reason to flip out over performance. Both of these devices are looking very good.
Kusarigama
Member
Jez Corden's article on Windows Central
TeamGhobad
Banned
Why would you stack the devkits if it causes a problem?. I honestly don't think Sony would invest in a new cooling solution thats worthy of a patent just so devs can save a devkit sized space on their tables.
ZywyPL
Banned
Apparently nothing:
If well designed that is - X1X pulls air from the sides and pulls out from the back, it was also designed particularly with the dev kits in mind as far as I remember.
sonomamashine
Member
40CU's 10,2TF.
Word.
Tell em.
So you are a women then, what's up baby
Heat
Aceofspades
Banned
Dude, are you watching the same thread because PS5 was almost lowered to 8TF again, and people started spewing baseless 10.24TF number out of nowhere.
Since the original PS5 rumor in 2017. PS5 was a 14TF system, then we had Benji say 13TF, then Reiner said PS5>Scarlett and was crucified for it . Then multiple insiders said PS5 > Scarlett . Then a number of Pastebins appeared to have PS5 at the range from 12-14TF. Then we have Klee say PS5>Scar then Osiris who still insists that PS5> Scar with better RT and SSD.
Now we had Windowscentral article that states that Scar is 12TF console based on yet a 6 month old rumor from Feb.
PS5 being more powerful is easily justifiable by all above incidents, unlike 8TF that DF and other MS shills want you to believe. Hell even R R600 true colors has surfaced after months of being the "natural" guy who expects consoles to NEVER exceeds 9.5TF , yesterday its ok for MS to do 12TF but Sony is "lol"
Im not saying PS5 is more powerful or not, its still up in the air, but I want to expose some of the hypocrisy that some posters show here
TBiddy
Member
Don't take my word for it. Ask Tom Warren if you need.
The X1X has a much better cooling design than anything Sony has produced, so it makes sense.
Why are you lying? I LITERALLY wrote I do NOT BUY Anaconda 12TF number IF 7nm is used.Dude, are you watching the same thread because PS5 was almost lowered to 8TF again, and people started spewing baseless 10.24TF number out of nowhere.
Since the original PS5 rumor in 2017. PS5 was a 14TF system, then we had Benji say 13TF, then Reiner said PS5>Scarlett and was crucified for it . Then multiple insiders said PS5 > Scarlett . Then a number of Pastebins appeared to have PS5 at the range from 12-14TF. Then we have Klee say PS5>Scar then Osiris who still insists that PS5> Scar with better RT and SSD.
Now we had Windowscentral article that states that Scar is 12TF console based on yet a 6 month old rumor from Feb.
PS5 being more powerful is easily justifiable by all above incidents, unlike 8TF that DF and other MS shills want you to believe. Hell even R R600 true colors has surfaced after months of being the "natural" guy who expects consoles to NEVER exceeds 9.5TF , yesterday its ok for MS to do 12TF but Sony is "lol"
Im not saying PS5 is more powerful or not, its still up in the air, but I want to expose some of the hypocrisy that some posters show here
I literally said 10TF is ABSOLUTE top on 7nm (IMO even that is too much). If someone has gone 7P then MAYBE, MAYBE thats possible (but Im 99% sure both are 7nm standard).
PS5 being 10TF tops is based on Flute benchmark which shows 256 bit bus and 530GB/s total BW, which would make 12-13TF IMPOSSIBLE (for that BW - 600GB/s is minimum IMO).
So, my opinion on this is simple.
PS5 IMO can be max 10TF. I personally dont think so, still think 36CUs at 2.0GHZ is the case, therefore 9.2TF and early 13TF targets where mad with Navi vs GCN TF difference in mind.
Anaconda has 320bit bus therefore could theoretically be 640GB/s, but I doubt that as well (probably 560GB/s).
Target specs for MS may have been 12TF, but I have my doubts they can exceed even 11TF, no matter the budget and price.
ResilientBanana
Member
i hope next gen consoles pull from the back and blow out the front. think of all the consoles that live in shelves.Apparently nothing:
If well designed that is - X1X pulls air from the sides and pulls out from the back, it was also designed particularly with the dev kits in mind as far as I remember.
Aceofspades
Banned
Wait a minute, what prevents Sony from using the +7nm node? Nothing..your problem is you took a rumor, treated it as a fact and stuck with it.
Specs will eventually release and we will see then.
Last edited:
I said both wont be using it. Why? Because APUs where already samples 10 months ago, and 7nm EUV was never an option on TSMC process.
It was a question if it will be Samsung 7nm EUV, but turns out Samsungs targets, especially for flagships where far too optimistic and everyone is using TSMC in the end.
Lets wait and see. I dont see them going above 10TF on regular 7nm (confirmed to be used for PS5 by AMD). I also dont see PS5 being 10TF+ because Flute benchmark specifically says - 256bit bus is used, and even with very highly clocked chips, that should barely do.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
Maybe the PS5's APU will only have ray tracing cores on the APU and then have a separate discrete GPU for the graphics? And the only reason I would entertain this idea is because of the way the cooling setup was done on the dev kits, it is weird that it has split cooling like that, so one side might be cooling the APU with RT cores and the other side is cooling the discrete GPU. Just a thought.
https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/radeon-dual-graphics
https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/radeon-dual-graphics
Last edited:
Darius87
Member
No, what you call RT cores actualy are TU's(texture units) which are inside GPU.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
I understand that, they are customized to handle ray tracing though, but what if the APU is dedicated to handling the ray tracing and the discrete GPU is for the graphics is what my main idea is. I know it is 99% not happening, but IF they decided to go that route just image how powerful the machine would be. And it would explain the crazy cooling solution they have going it.
Darius87
Member
the point i'm making is that GPU can't work without TU's if they would make seperate GPU it require to include TU's so TU's in APU wouldn't be called TU's would be called RT cores or something like that, but idea alone RT dedicated APU doesn't make sense because GPU and RT must be on same silicon.
VFXVeteran
Banned
You are 100% correct. But you gotta start somewhere.
There isn't a single paper on getting more accurate shadows, real reflections, real ambient occlusion, etc.. using the old rasterizing algorithms. Nvidia and AMD have to build up their RT computation power. It'll take years and years, but it's where they are at unfortunately.
Last edited:
44alltheway
Member
again why are people out here giving Osiris blind faith. all he says is that the truth is coming soon, whatever the hell that means...
Gamernyc78
Banned
Again, ppl have given reasons why thy take Osirises leaks more serious than others. All you have to do is look at previous posts.
ANIMAL1975
Member
Is there something hidden in this post? Why is no one trying to decipher it?
Gamernyc78
Banned
Someone already has pages ago.
44alltheway
Member
the point im trying to make is that he keeps on saying everything is gonna be out soon, and then just after saying a whole lot of nothing.
They are shit.
Btw something to think about...What do you do if you give target specs to developers and tell them to shoot for 12 or 13TF? Keep it in mind we are talking about 2018 info here...
Since devs dont know about Navi and efficiency improvements, but you know perf/TF vs GCN, do you think its good idea to tell them TF in GCN what to shoot for?
Because sure as shit 12TF makes 0 sense on 7 (and so does 11 and 13TF, especially with RT cores).
Like, that would be like adding 50% more CUs on 5700 card + RT, while keeping 1.6GHZ clocks. Roundabout 250W for GPU itself + additional ~80W for system.
Impossible, even if you improve efficiency with 2nd gen cards by 30%.
Lets wait and see, but thats way, way too much flops. I still think its 9-10TF max and there is a reason MS nor Sony are talking about TFs.
Last edited:
ANIMAL1975
Member
This is from the previous page...
44alltheway
Member
either way I don't think it really matters,
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
Hmmm, good point...maybe the APU will handle the physics portion?
I am basically just torn on the split cooling on the dev kits, what else would need that much cooling on the other side of the mainboard?! I mean the RAM you want to be to be as close to the APU as possible so that wouldn't be on the other side like that, so my spidey sense is saying that thing has a discrete GPU in it. I know I am probably waaaay overthinking the whole situation and no one will know for sure until 2020, unless someone rips open a dev kit and posts it online!
My thinking is, back in 2018 (since we know they sent target specs then) Sony didnt know exaclty how Navi will pan out. They shot for 13TF of GCN performance and let devs know where to aim. That number is what you get with 9-10TF GPU (even more).
I dont see how its possible to have 12-13TF with RT even with design improvements + EUV node. It seems impossible.
My problem with Sony is also Prospero, Ariel, Gonzalo and Flute.
Flute confirmed BW was ~530GB/s on 256bit bus. Thats not enough for 13TF, not even close. So thats first problem, because Flute matches codename with Ariel, and both match with codename confirmed for PS5 - Prospero.
I just dont see it. When they are announced and have TF range 9-10TF they will have a go at insiders, but insiders might have gotten target specs, but these go more then 2 years back from release and Navi was non existant for another year back then.
Darius87
Member
yes it will handle everything APU is CPU+GPU on same silicon there won't be any more hardware for computing in these consoles.Hmmm, good point...maybe the APU will handle the physics portion?
you overthinking the V shape for dev kit it's just for more efficient airflow it doesn't have split cooling that's probably because GPU is around 2Ghz which makes lot of heat.
Gamernyc78
Banned
We know your narrative and your paradigm view. They may be shit for you! But I was around for those leaks and alot of them were on point, nuff said.
Gamernyc78
Banned
He gave some details so idk what more can we expect. It's vague for a reason.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
I know the APU is a CPU+GPU, I was just saying that maybe the APU's GPU portion is dedicated to physics while still having a separate discrete GPU for graphics, which doing that would allow for the higher TFLOP performance everyone is talking about. If it really only has an APU and no discrete GPU then why on earth did they setup the cooling solution like that, I couldn't image they did it just for fun to make the Roman Numeral V, it's a dev kit, functionality should always come before design in that situation. I just can't image Sony (and Microsoft) coming in at pretty much processing parity with Stadia, I really thing they are going to out do what Google has done, so my fingers will be crossed for ~12 TFLOP performance until the final specs are released!
Darius87
Member
there's 0% that it will have any seperate HW there's no need and no point it would just increase price and TDP and complexity, V shape as i said for airflow and design, stadia is already beaten by next-gen consoles RDNA is better then GCN at same tflops and they don't even give that processing power of 10.7 Tflops to users just corporate lies and bs.
Last edited:
A new architecture is needed, probably tile based.
You need to somehow create that data locality, any global illumination solution suffers too much from latency.
Imtjnotu
Member
Q
This was the response to him saying the rumors are ps5 is only 10tf. Not to show it was stronger than Xbox. It was just in contrast
XcloudTimdog
Banned
Dude, are you watching the same thread because PS5 was almost lowered to 8TF again, and people started spewing baseless 10.24TF number out of nowhere.
Since the original PS5 rumor in 2017. PS5 was a 14TF system, then we had Benji say 13TF, then Reiner said PS5>Scarlett and was crucified for it . Then multiple insiders said PS5 > Scarlett . Then a number of Pastebins appeared to have PS5 at the range from 12-14TF. Then we have Klee say PS5>Scar then Osiris who still insists that PS5> Scar with better RT and SSD.
Now we had Windowscentral article that states that Scar is 12TF console based on yet a 6 month old rumor from Feb.
PS5 being more powerful is easily justifiable by all above incidents, unlike 8TF that DF and other MS shills want you to believe. Hell even R R600 true colors has surfaced after months of being the "natural" guy who expects consoles to NEVER exceeds 9.5TF , yesterday its ok for MS to do 12TF but Sony is "lol"
Im not saying PS5 is more powerful or not, its still up in the air, but I want to expose some of the hypocrisy that some posters show here
Jez article was not based on a rumor in Feb. He has actually sources within Xbox, not some Dianna blueshit .
64 CUs @ 1.5Ghz is just over 12 Tflops. Pretty sure that you could get that clock speed with very low volts and draw sub 200W for the GPU.
5700 Xt has 448GB/s of bandwidth. Use the same GDDR6 chips on a 384bit bus and you are at 672GB/s of bandwidth.
On 7nm that would be around 50% larger than the Navi 10 die so 375mm. + Zen is about 450mm. Probably a touch large but with 7nm defects being really low there might be enough chips per wafer to make it work.
Also possible it is on 7nm euv so sub 400mm. Another possibility is slightly fewer CUs but higher clocks. Depends where the voltage/ clock sweet spot is on each node.
Bottom line is it seem doable if the price point is 449 or 499. Not so much at 399.
DemonCleaner
Member
Mass Shift
Member
Dude, are you watching the same thread because PS5 was almost lowered to 8TF again, and people started spewing baseless 10.24TF number out of nowhere.
Since the original PS5 rumor in 2017. PS5 was a 14TF system, then we had Benji say 13TF, then Reiner said PS5>Scarlett and was crucified for it . Then multiple insiders said PS5 > Scarlett . Then a number of Pastebins appeared to have PS5 at the range from 12-14TF. Then we have Klee say PS5>Scar then Osiris who still insists that PS5> Scar with better RT and SSD.
Now we had Windowscentral article that states that Scar is 12TF console based on yet a 6 month old rumor from Feb.
PS5 being more powerful is easily justifiable by all above incidents, unlike 8TF that DF and other MS shills want you to believe. Hell even R R600 true colors has surfaced after months of being the "natural" guy who expects consoles to NEVER exceeds 9.5TF , yesterday its ok for MS to do 12TF but Sony is "lol"
Im not saying PS5 is more powerful or not, its still up in the air, but I want to expose some of the hypocrisy that some posters show here
Well don't throw me in the same pot. Lol
All I'm saying is that if Scarlett and PS5 are in the 12TF range then everyone can relax on performance.
As you say, the power argument swirls in hypocrisy. Brand loyalists who for some reason not only want their platform of choice to be more powerful, but also want to see a MAJOR player fail at everything to the point where their platform dies. As if something like that would help the console industry. And why does another platform have to fail for anyone to feel good about what they like to game on?
Here's another thing that bugs me. I see people ripping MS apart over Lockhart but are also hoping for Sony to price the PS5 in the $399 range. BUT they all want a 12+ TF device. So even if Sony gives them the power they crave (and it looks they will) , they still want Sony to eat anywhere $100-$200 in losses! And these are the LOYALISTS!!
So why jump on MS for recognizing that not everyone is willing to pay above $400 for these game consoles? For understanding that inside the console demographic exists a group of cheapskates who want cutting edge performance at bargain bin prices. I'm sorry, but if we're in the 12TF lane then no one is getting anything below $500. If that's a problem, there's another lane with Lockhart in it that they can jump on. Or just stay on their Pros and X Ones another year or so until the prices fall.
And what happened to all of the"I don't care about 4K and I'll be happy with high IQ and 1080p/60fps" preachers in here?
Personal rant completed. lol
Mass Shift
Member
Yeah, I got that now. Ridiculous btw. Anyone honestly believing Sony would allow that kind of gap.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
Due to the fact both systems are supposed to have near perfect BC I am hoping they actually price their new systems higher this time $500-600 range, I want both systems to go toe to toe and be extremely powerful compared to PS4/XB1. If you don't want to pay that price, then they need to do like you said and just hang on to your current console until prices drop. I think the fact that pretty much all current gen titles should work on the next gen consoles is going to help too, you will have a great number of games to play the second the new systems come out which both will hopefully implement the PS4 Pro/XB1 X 'upgrades' onto the next gen systems, so for me I will be able to play some of my current titles at 4K with HDR, etc. I picture that most people that own a decent 4K TV can also afford a slightly higher price console and I want both systems to push the envelope on performance this gen!
sonomamashine
Member
He's making some look like fools, the truth is coming ... no sh!t we all know truth is coming as time pass, what the f@@@k are your contributions, you ain't adding sh!t we don't already speculate on, but yeah truth is coming soon.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Why are people giving any "leaks" "blind faith"? ... confirmation bias is a major factor. Especially the past few days.
Last edited:
ResilientBanana
Member
Some of the people leaking have credibility. OsirisBlack on the other hand was about 80% wrong regarding the PS4Pro leaks, I'm not sure why people consider him to have credibility. A couple guesses were right, but not unlike the rumors that were spreading around that time frame.
Last edited:
Gamernyc78
Banned
Of course you'll say tht lol it'll kill u if the PS5 is more powerful. We've all connected the dots. Ppl want to pick and choose who thy believe in, not based on the messenger and history but based on what plastic box their in love with
❤❤❤❤
Last edited:
- Status