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[SonGoku]

MS has modified xbox x GPU in such a way high frequency API calls are implemented DIRECTLY into the GPU’s command processor. It's DX12 build into a hardware level and it's not just software method like DX12 on PC.

I don't disagree with any of this, im just telling you ps4 had this low level access from day one

B3D forum has done rough maths and estimates point at Anaconda SoC being 384mm2

how many CU's is that? counting 8core zen2?

64

 

[Negotiator]

MS has modified xbox x GPU in such a way high frequency API calls are implemented DIRECTLY into the GPU’s command processor. It's DX12 build into a hardware level and it's not just software method like DX12 on PC. In my previous comment I have linked you interesting quotes from digital foundry article in regards to that.

Naming GCN's command processor "built-in DX12" is the very definition of PR Kool-Aid. I'm pretty sure that was Penello's idea.

 

[Mass Shift]

I just read Albert Panello's latest tweet in response to the PS5 dev-kits being more powerful than the current Scarlett dev-kits. And that got me thinking.

What would be the industry fallout be if Sony's new console happens to be the technically most competent of the consoles, next-gen?


[/QUOTE]

The industry isn't going flip out if Sony built a better console. If they built a better box they just built a better box. Period.

 

[TeamGhobad]

64

is that including disabled?

 

[CrustyBritches]

Our forum is mostly on the hardcore side of gaming, so I think we put a lot of emphasis on peak performance, but I'm not so sure that both MS and Sony feel that way. We could have $399 and/or $499 consoles. One build could be compact and quiet while another is big, loud, and power hungry. Could have software vs hardware RT, or non-AMD RT ip from ImgTech. Many different variables to consider.

B3D forum has done rough maths and estimates point at Anaconda SoC being 384mm2

how many CU's is that? counting 8core zen2?

I wonder if this includes hardware RT, and how much space that might consume on 7nm?

 

[pawel86ck]

Naming GCN's command processor "built-in DX12" is the very definition of PR Kool-Aid. I'm pretty sure that was Penello's idea.

It's Andrew Goossen (technical Fellow at Microsoft) who talked about that

"We essentially moved Direct3D 12," says Goossen. "We built that into the command processor of the GPU and what that means is that, for all the high frequency API invocations that the games do, they'll all natively implemented in the logic of the command processor - and what this means is that our communication from the game to the GPU is super-efficient."

 

[TeamGhobad]

I wonder if this includes hardware RT, and how much space that might consume on 7nm?

i was hoping RT wouldn't take up any SoC space...if possible.

 

[Negotiator]

It's Andrew Goossen (technical Fellow at Microsoft) who talked about that

And then they said that the OG XB1 has the exact same feature, just like every GCN GPU in the market since 2011.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I just read Albert Panello's latest tweet in response to the PS5 dev-kits being more powerful than the current Scarlett dev-kits. And that got me thinking.

What would be the industry fallout be if Sony's new console happens to be the technically most competent of the consoles, next-gen?

They're launching in a year and and a few months, if chips aren't "even close" to ready somebody is in trouble lol.

At this stage the configuration of the chip is finalized, most likely taped out or soon to be, and undergoing validation and correction cycles. What's left to futz with is largely just clock speeds. Unless they decided to not disable a CU and take the yield hit or something, but to say chips aren't close to final design is patently false.

 

[SonGoku]

is that including disabled?

Yes, 64 total, 56 enabled

I wonder if this includes hardware RT, and how much space that might consume on 7nm?

dukeballs estimates included rt hw

Ps anyone getting host cloudfare error on gaf?

 

[Evilms]

 

[SonGoku]

They're launching in a year and and a few months, if chips aren't "even close" to ready somebody is in trouble lol.

At this stage the configuration of the chip is finalized, most likely taped out or soon to be, and undergoing validation and correction cycles. What's left to futz with is largely just clock speeds.

I've always wondered why does the chip need to be set in stone so far in advanced?
Adding CUs is not some major architecture redesign

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Spoiler: Bigger shots

12 chips
4 more are on the bottom, shown in the first picture showcasing the SOC
So 24GB GDDR6 assuming 16Gbit (2GB) chips
24 GB of GDDR6 with 384 bits bus


In 2016 Microsoft showcased a render of the Xbox One X's board while the system was in development and the number of chips were able to match up with the number of chips the retail system has. Keep in mind things may be subject to change

2 different memory sizes are noticed because different codes on chips. According to some post on ERA, they are 1GB and 2GB chips. So, it's not a 24 GB in the end. But probably bandwidth will remain the same

 

[Godzilla Emu]

They're launching in a year and and a few months, if chips aren't "even close" to ready somebody is in trouble lol.

At this stage the configuration of the chip is finalized, most likely taped out or soon to be, and undergoing validation and correction cycles. What's left to futz with is largely just clock speeds.

The start of next-gen has the scent of mirroring the beginning of the last (current) gen. Mark Cerny is the Adrian Newey of console engineering, apparently .

I was hopeful for a Microsoft win but I'm platform agnostic, so I'll be happy either way. Bring on 2020!

 

[Negotiator]

I've always wondered why does the chip need to be set in stone so far in advanced?
Adding CUs is not some major architecture redesign

We're talking about multi-billion transistor chips that will need to be tested over and over again for any possible (hardware) bugs. It's like adding a few lines of code to a million-line code project. There's always a risk of introducing new bugs.

Not sure if testing is done manually by humans (which can take a lot of time, usually months) or in an automated manner (I assume AI could help quite a bit doing mundane tasks like that)...

 

[CrustyBritches]

Yes, 64 total, 56 enabled

dukeballs estimates included rt hw

Ps anyone getting host cloudfare error on gaf?

I'll have to go back and read over the method used to get the estimates from the beginning and see if they did any for Navi 10 die shot before it's size was officially know. I think Duke is Proelite and he recently said:

Spoiler: Random B3D post:

I just want to add the Matt, the mod at Resetera who has Sony connections, said the PS5 was delayed from Fall 2019 to H1/H2 2020. Very likely in that case for Sony to be getting silicon earlier and also ship out dev kits earlier.

The GPU in PS5 is most likely Navi 10 derivative considering the Gonzalo leak. I am guessing that they'll have some sort of customized HW RT, different from RDNA 2.0 and MS's implementation since they're 6 months to 1 year ahead.

I am thinking 36 at 1.8ghz is what'll end up the in Fall 2019/ Spring 2020 PS5,.

If they have a plan B console that was engineered from the start for H2 2020, we'll probably see something similar to Anaconda.

 

[TeamGhobad]

maybe the SoC we saw was the lockhart....

 

[DanielsM]

2 years of crossgen max

64CUs!

You might be right as far as Sony 1st party titles, they said in the IR brief that PS4 is the focus for 3 more years from now. However, 3rd parties could still easily release for quite a few years after that, depending on the game.

On another note, the Albert Panello tweet. Personnally, I don't really care too much but man, they sure are worried for some reason about not having the most powerful plastic. To me power really wasn't the key problem for them over the last 10 years - they are out of touch.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I've always wondered why does the chip need to be set in stone so far in advanced?
Adding CUs is not some major architecture redesign

At a basic level use of area is one consideration where just adding CUs wouldn't be easy, they have to think about the arrangement of the die to maximize yields. Look at most APU/SoC dies for how the CPU cores, caches, MCs, and GPU cores are arranged such that the chip forms a square to maximize wafer yields. Now if you just added CUs, what would happen? There would be area around the GPU with dead silicon, a dive in yields per wafer for dead area.

Then there's testing and validation, software you can fix, hardware you only put out once, so this process finds any errata and tries to fix them before launch.


Ice Lake was taped out almost a year ago afaik, Zen 2 taped out some time in 2017, etc, silicon development has a lot of lead time. Then once you tape out, the design could fail to be fabricated by the foundry for a flaw in the actual design, or it could be fabbed but fail functionality test, so you go through more iterations ("Spins") of testing and retesting.

 

[SonGoku]

I'll have to go back and read over the method used to get the estimates from the beginning and see if they did any for Navi 10 die shot before it's size was officially know. I think Duke is Proelite and he recently said:

They did, here is my post with the links

I just want to add the Matt, the mod at Resetera who has Sony connections, said the PS5 was delayed from Fall 2019 to H1/H2 2020.

Doubtful, if PS5 was early 2020 Sony would have done a E3 media blowout

36CUs is a joke, won't even reach 7TF lol

 

[Mass Shift]

Wait a minute. Are these two individuals being seroius?

Sounds like one person doesn't want to accept responsibility for his contribution to the toxicity, and the other wants to just act like console fandom doesn't engage in their own postulations over hardware specs.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

You might be right as far as Sony 1st party titles, they said in the IR brief that PS4 is the focus for 3 more years from now. However, 3rd parties could still easily release for quite a few years after that, depending on the game.

On another note, the Albert Panello tweet. Personnally, I don't really care too much but man, they sure are worried for some reason about not having the most powerful plastic. To me power really wasn't the key problem for them over the last 10 years - they are out of touch.

Funny thing is Penello isn't anymore at Microsoft, yet he immediatelly jumped in for defending the Xbox after Reiner's tweets

 

[DanielsM]

Funny thing is Penello isn't anymore at Microsoft, yet he immediatelly jumped in for defending the Xbox after Reiner's tweets

Oh wow, I didn't know he left. Some bizarre stuff.

I think Microsoft continues to miss the point. They already have the most powerful console (whatever that means) on the market, there are many factors which they are not addressing and most probably won't address. Them focusing in on "power" is actually part of the problem, I actually think the Xbox One X is a decent piece of plastic.

If they want to gain me as a customer the sooner they talk about good games and when they are coming to my platform/device of choice is much more important, imo.

 

[CrustyBritches]

They did, here is my post with the links

Doubtful, if PS5 was early 2020 Sony would have done a E3 media blowout

36CUs is a joke, won't even reach 7TF lol

I mean if he did a die size estimate for Navi 10 XT before it's official specs were know.

Just wanted to share his post from this morning, since it's the same guy.

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

You might be right as far as Sony 1st party titles, they said in the IR brief that PS4 is the focus for 3 more years from now. However, 3rd parties could still easily release for quite a few years after that, depending on the game.

On another note, the Albert Panello tweet. Personnally, I don't really care too much but man, they sure are worried for some reason about not having the most powerful plastic. To me power really wasn't the key problem for them over the last 10 years - they are out of touch.

Despite being a company founded on software, MS still haven't seemed to realise that gaming is a content driven business not a spec arms race.

Although the recent studio acquisitions point to times changing for the better.

But is that because:

• long term MS wants to exit hardware and needs better content to have a credible platform neutral service based offering
• due to the sales under performance of the xbox hardware this generation, third party developers would be less likely to commit to xbox exclusives

Choose your poison.

 

[Thedtrain]

Kind of seems like he has new info that reiterated what he said before. Otherwise he’d been keen to calm the nuts

 

[pawel86ck]

And then they said that the OG XB1 has the exact same feature, just like every GCN GPU in the market since 2011.

Not like every GCN GPU on the market, xbox GPU has 2x command processors. Vega GPU's on PC, and PS4 GPU have only one command processor.

Personally I dont care what they did precisely in order to increase performance, but there are indeed games that push 2x more pixels on Xbox X compared to PS4P. People say it's because of higher memory bandwidth on xbox x, but I'm sure MS customizations also made a difference. On PC if GPU is too slow you can increase memory bandwitdth but performance will not change.

 

[demigod]

Despite being a company founded on software, MS still haven't seemed to realise that gaming is a content driven business not a spec arms race.

Although the recent studio acquisitions point to times changing for the better.

But is that because:

• long term MS wants to exit hardware and needs better content to have a credible platform neutral service based offering
• due to the sales under performance of the xbox hardware this generation, third party developers would be less likely to commit to xbox exclusives

Choose your poison.

They saw how much mobile has been making so they're shifting away from traditional gaming to games as a service.

Kind of seems like he has new info that reiterated what he said before. Otherwise he’d been keen to calm the nuts

Good point.

 

[SonGoku]

2 different memory sizes are noticed because different codes on chips. According to some post on ERA, they are 1GB and 2GB chips.

Interesting indeed but i doubt that Frankenstein config will make it to the final design

However, 3rd parties could still easily release for quite a few years after that

Yearly fifa, madden, cod, fortnite sure

I mean if he did a die size estimate for Navi 10 XT before it's official specs were know.

It was post

Just wanted to share his post from this morning, since it's the same guy.

He's just speculating on the possibility of Sony releasing a small chip that was meant to be ready this year
Which doesn't make any sense imo
A 36CU rat will be eaten alive by the 56CU ANACONDA

PS: Anybody else getting this error?

 

[Evilms]

 

[CrustyBritches]

He's just speculating on the possibility of Sony releasing a small chip that was meant to be ready this year
Which doesn't make any sense imo

Spoiler: Random B3D posts:

He said 370mm² -390mm² estimate with "minimum 48CU" now that I'm going back through.

"The GPU in PS5 is most likely Navi 10 derivative considering the Gonzalo leak." - What I believe, DF too

"I am guessing that they'll have some sort of customized HW RT, different from RDNA 2.0 and MS's implementation" - What I believe, as well, or implemented as compute shader

"I am thinking" and "If they have a plan B console" are still just best guesses. The chip size applies to Xbox, he believes the GPU in PS5 is Gonzalo, and if they had plan A and plan B in place, we'll "probably see something similar to Anaconda."

A 36CU rat will be eaten alive by the 56CU ANACONDA

No way, man. $399 PS5 would skin $499 Anaconda alive. Normal gamers don't care about the shit we do.

PS: Anybody else getting this error?

Nope. I have weird quoting glitches, but that's probably just me.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Oh wow, I didn't know he left. Some bizarre stuff.

I think Microsoft continues to miss the point. They already have the most powerful console (whatever that means) on the market, there are many factors which they are not addressing and most probably won't address. Them focusing in on "power" is actually part of the problem, I actually think the Xbox One X is a decent piece of plastic.

If they want to gain me as a customer the sooner they talk about good games and when they are coming to my platform/device of choice is much more important, imo.

He left MS last year in April. Now he is at Amazon.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/albertpenello

Interesting indeed but i doubt that Frankenstein config will make it to the final design

From 16 to 20 GB i think it is a safe bet

 

[SonGoku]

No way, man. $399 PS5 would skin $499 Anaconda alive. Normal gamers don't care about the shit we do.

8TF vs 11TF is a huge difference lol

PS5 36CU comments are all based on gonzolo though its too much of a stretch. PS5 matching SNEK config is the most practical given the time tables imo. Mind posting the link for context?

EDIIT:
CrustyBritches thanks for the gold

 

[Romulus]

I'm really curious what devs will do with the new PS5 and PSVR, especially with the current headset that is confirmed to work with PS5 but limited to 1080p. That'll be interesting considering the current PSVR is 120fps capable but most games run at 60fps(required) 90fps, or some rare cases are 120fps. Could be the first time ever that console players get very high framerates often and use the supersampling technique like below for better clarity.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Mind posting the link for context?

48-60CU estimate before adjustment...
This is the link I quoted from B3D...
Another concerning the memory and render...
Adjusted measurements = 365mm² - 380mm²

I find Proelite and Anex posts from B3D to pretty good in general. A lot of good guys over there.

 

[SonGoku]

48-60CU estimate before adjustment...
This is the link I quoted from B3D...
Another concerning the memory and render...
Adjusted measurements = 365mm - 380mm

I find Proelite and Anex posts from B3D to pretty good in general. A lot of good guys over there.

Thanks if SNEK is 380 mm2 64CU is a given ( his latest estimate is 384 mm2 )
Very puzzled about the memory config, render error perhaps

Agree about Proelite, Anex annoys me though

 

[Mattyp]

Kind of seems like he has new info that reiterated what he said before. Otherwise he’d been keen to calm the nuts

Nah he just didn't expect Greenburg to make comments that dev kits weren't even out the door yet after he made his click bait comments. If he has some solid information post some solid information, half these hacks along with Matt don't know shit out side of some widely vague guesses anyone could make. You ain't going to get sued for posting information, you didn't break an NDA. Stop attention seeking and starting fires, wish all this shit would just fuck off until we get to next e3 to be honest.

 

[quest]

Thanks if SNEK is 380 mm2 64CU is a given ( his latest estimate is 384 mm2 )
Very puzzled about the memory config, render error perhaps

Agree about Proelite, Anex annoys me though

I hope your both right. If the weaker device is 64 cu that is damn nice. If it is true I don't see how Sony could get 30% more performance. Clockspeed won't be much different I cant see Sony having 15-18 more CUs. That be a 80 cu monster.

 

[SonGoku]

I hope your both right. If the weaker device is 64 cu that is damn nice. If it is true I don't see how Sony could get 30% more performance. Clockspeed won't be much different I cant see Sony having 15-18 more CUs. That be a 80 cu monster.

72CU chip 400mm2 monster APU is the max imo without 7nm EUV

 

[archy121]

No way, man. $399 PS5 would skin $499 Anaconda alive. -

Normal gamers don't care about the shit we do.

A fact most gaming enthusiasts don’t understand.

 

[quest]

72CU chip 400mm2 monster APU is the max imo without 7nm EUV

That is about 20% performance if they can match clocks. Care to speculate the other possibly 10% of the 30% more powerful rumor if scarlet is 64cu? Also any speculation on the AMD RT cores or hardware.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Thanks if SNEK is 380 mm2 64CU is a given ( his latest estimate is 384 mm2 )
Very puzzled about the memory config, render error perhaps

He's going down the 16GB HBM2 rabbit hole with PS5, you going too?

P.S.- I always say the honey is in the mem config, but I don't know something about using HBM seems to go against the market trend. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It would be pretty cool if next-gen systems were super tricked out and 1st-party could really hone in on the strengths for each system. Cookie cutter $499 systems within 10-15% of each other would be boring for hardware nerds.

P.S.- I want 2 Lockharts, damn it! 2 $500 consoles is gonna kill me at launch. Then another $500 console a year later. Bleh.

 

[SonGoku]

He's going down the 16GB HBM2 rabbit hole with PS5, you going too?

Who Anex?
Fuck no, hbm2 doesn't make any sense

P.S.- I want 2 Lockharts, damn it! 2 $500 consoles is gonna kill me at launch. Then another $500 console a year later. Bleh.

If your 36CU dream comes true you'll get a $299 PS5

Care to speculate the other possibly 10% of the 30% more powerful rumor if scarlet is 64cu?

Very unlikely unless sony goes 36CU lol In which case its going to be a 40 to 50% gap

 

[CrustyBritches]

Who Anex?
Fuck no, hbm2 doesn't make any sense

The Duke, baby! Hahahaha.

If your 36CU dream comes true you'll get a $299 PS5

Damn, that would be awesome actually.

 

[Tripolygon]

Not like every GCN GPU on the market, xbox GPU has 2x command processors. Vega GPU's on PC, and PS4 GPU have only one command processor.

Personally I dont care what they did precisely in order to increase performance, but there are indeed games that push 2x more pixels on Xbox X compared to PS4P. People say it's because of higher memory bandwidth on xbox x, but I'm sure MS customizations also made a difference. On PC if GPU is too slow you can increase memory bandwitdth but performance will not change.

That is wrong, PS4 has 2 GCP.

 

[SonGoku]

The Duke, baby! Hahahaha.

PS5:
8 core Zen 2
16GB HBM2 + 8GB DDR4
11.5 Navi teraflops
1TB SSD

16GB HBM2 @1TB/s + 8GB DDR4 would be something
But i just don't see it, plain 24GB GDDR6 on a 384bit bus + sufficient cooling would be cheaper

 

[Mass Shift]

Nah he just didn't expect Greenburg to make comments that dev kits weren't even out the door yet after he made his click bait comments. If he has some solid information post some solid information, half these hacks along with Matt don't know shit out side of some widely vague guesses anyone could make. You ain't going to get sued for posting information, you didn't break an NDA. Stop attention seeking and starting fires, wish all this shit would just fuck off until we get to next e3 to be honest.

And

Precisely

I think If the devs had specs for both consoles they would have leaked them by now. And the leaks wouldn't be all over the place, there'd be some consistency to them. And they'd be easier to corroborate.

If anything we've learned from generations past is that earliest hardware rumors tend to be the most accurate. The ones that come later almost always seem to be gamers most desperate wish lists. That's why it feels like its April's Fool every few hours.

 

[Lone Wolf]

That quote states it was announced from individual discussions held by both Sony and Microsoft.

Did you quote the wrong person?

No.

 

[CrustyBritches]

16GB HBM2 @1TB/s + 8GB DDR4 would be something
But i just don't see it, plain 24GB GDDR6 on a 384bit bus + sufficient cooling would be cheaper

I'm guessing 16GB GDDR6 +4GB DDR4 for PS5. Don't know what's going on with that Xbox render and mixed chips...18-20GB??? Weird. In the PC space Nvidia is using GDDR6 for 1660 ti up I believe, and AMD is going with GDDR6 on Navi 10. Anaconda is GDDR6. Seems like the economy of scale long term would trend towards GDDR6.

 

[SonGoku]

I'm guessing 16GB GDDR6 +4GB DDR4 for PS5.

Im team 24gddr6 for the 384bit bus