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[SonGoku]

What if PS5 gpu is like 13TF but with 50RT (Ray tracing cores) and the Xbox 4 gpu is like 12TF but with 100RT cores. Because they both have some sort of hardware based ray tracing, i wonder how that will scale in ray traced games. I really want them to push each other so we can have best of both worlds.

I dont think RT cores are actually separate cores, each traditional core has RT bits

For the PS4, its GPU was based on mid-range Pitcarin. It was a custom chip, in that it was not exactly an off the shelf PC GPU part, but at the end of the day what it was was a custom part that very much landed between the 7870 and 7850 (which launched about 18 months before the PS4).

The Navi 5700XT and 5700 are this gens mid-range chips (launching about 18 months before the PS5).

My problem with this line of thinking is that 5700xt is way too small for a console, yourself recognized we woulnt get as high clocks on consoles
A 40cu chip (36 enabled) at 1.5ghz ; 1.6ghz and even 1.8ghz would yield 6.9tf ; 7.3tf and 8.2tf respectively.

The minimum size chip consoles will go for is 56CU enabled with the possibility of 64cu (72 total)
The strength of 7nm process is in density increase not clocks

Big Navi is going to be both expensive and draw a lot of power, 300+ watts.

The only reason amd cards are power hungry is amd pushes them beyond diminishing returns for max performance
Consoles gpus are fine tuned to hit a perf/watt sweet spot.

 

[wordslaughter]

Has there been any speculation ITT about having multiple GPUs?

Not saying I think it's going to happen but it's worth speculating about.

That's definitely the direction things are headed. AMD already uses CPU chiplets and has already created a custom dual GPU solution for Apple where 2 GPU dies are connected by Infinity Fabric.

In theory you could take 2x 5700 dies, clock em way down to maybe 1.3GHz ( maybe this is the efficiency sweet spot ) connect them with infinity fabric and boom, you've got your 12 TFLOPS.

Connecting "GPU chiplets" is definitely what AMD is working towards. If they can get there before Nvidia it will allow them to easily regain the performance crown and hold it until Nvidia develops their own chiplet based designs.

You can only make a monolithic die so big and we've pretty much reached that point. We also can't count on many more node shrinks. A multi GPU chiplet design that is invisible to developers ( nothing like SLI ) is likely the way forward.

Is something like that going to make it into next gen consoles next year? .... Just speculating...

 

[SonGoku]

Has there been any speculation ITT about having multiple GPUs?

Its more cost effective to make a 400mm2 die that can be quickly shrunk to 340mm2 on 2021 without making any of the sacrifices a chiplet based gpu would incur.

 

[wordslaughter]

OK, let's talk about die sizes.

Why do you think an 5700xt's die size is too small for a console? Isn't it ~250mm?

And sure, the PS4's die size was more like 350mm but it had to include other things than just the GPU.

The 7870 ( which the PS4 GPU was roughly based on ) was 212mm. But that's JUST the GPU.

So if they base the PS5 GPU on the 5700(xt) ... that's bigger than what they used last gen, and would result in a total size of the APU north of 350mm.

 

[SonGoku]

OK, let's talk about die sizes.

Why do you think an 5700xt's die size is too small for a console? Isn't it ~250mm?

And sure, the PS4's die size was more like 350mm but it had to include other things than just the GPU.

The 7870 ( which the PS4 GPU was roughly based on ) was 212mm. But that's JUST the GPU.

So if they base the PS5 GPU on the 5700(xt) ... that's bigger than what they used last gen, and would result in a total size of the APU north of 350mm.

The calculations were posted earlier on this thread
72CU APU = 399.1 mm2 (64 enabled)
64CU APU = 385.6 mm2 (56 enabled)

400 mm2 may seem massive at first glance but considering the possibility to quickly shrink to 340 mm2 it doesn't seem so cray

For reference
The RTX 2060 is 445mm2 $349 with Nvidia's high profits
Launch PS4 roughly 350 mm2 at $399
Launch XBONE roughly 360 mm2 at $399 (kinectless sku)

 

[wordslaughter]

OK but aren't you comparing the die sizes of JUST GPUs to the total dies sizes of the APUs in consoles?

 

[SonGoku]

OK but aren't you comparing the die sizes of JUST GPUs to the total dies sizes of the APUs in consoles?

72CU APU = 399.1 mm2 (64 enabled)
64CU APU = 385.6 mm2 (56 enabled)

Its for the whole APU not just GPU.

 

[wordslaughter]

You're making a LOT of assumptions.

You're assuming 7nm+ EUV and that consoles will be based on big navi.

You're then constructing something that could theoretically fit within 400mm but then not being all too concerned with cost, power or heat. And then making a lot of comparisons to Nvidia GPUs, but only when favorable.

You are definitely constructing a house of cards.

I agree that what you speculate about is possible but then you take things to the limit of what's possible and you do it with every aspect of your design and combine them altogether.

Big Navi will be out next year, will draw 300+ watts and cost north of $500 ( maybe north of $700 ) but you're expecting that chip to be integrated into APU form and sold inside PS5s for less than $500 only a few months later.

You ask a a lot IMO.

 

[SonGoku]

You're assuming 7nm+ EUV and that consoles will be based on big navi.

No no, Im using the base non euv 7nm spec to come up with 400 mm2 and then shrunk to 340 mm2 as soon as 6nm yields are console ready

If 7nm EUV was available at launch a 72CU APU would come under 330mm2

You're then constructing something that could theoretically fit within 400mm but then not being all too concerned with cost, power or heat. And then making a lot of comparisons to Nvidia GPUs, but only when favorable.

Cost would be a factor short term but it will be quickly brought down with 6nm on 2021
Heat and power? The idea of a big chip clocked lower is to hit those targets sweet spots for a console

72CUs is my max estimate btw my baseline is 64CU (56 enabled)

Big Navi will be out next year, will draw 300+ watts and cost north of $500 ( maybe north of $700 ) but you're expecting that chip to be integrated into APU form and sold inside PS5s for less than $500 only a few months later.

Big Navi will be pushing high clocks hitting diminishing returns consoles will be undervolted for lower clocks, discrete pricing is irrelevant with AMD just matching nvidia

 

[wordslaughter]

Well I hope you're right. The more powerful the better.

Don't understand why smartphones can cost so much but consoles have to be less than $500, especially considering Gens tend to last 7-8 years.

If I bought a $500 smart phone and then used it for 8 years I would be considered a cheapskate.

 

[SonGoku]

Smartphones take huge profit margins dont they?
Im curious why cant just they make the casing more apropiate to accomodate proper cooling?
Two or Three fans and a big heatsink would be enough to silently cool a 300W console.

Woulnt even need to be that much bigger.

 

[Farrell55]

OK, let's talk about die sizes.

Why do you think an 5700xt's die size is too small for a console? Isn't it ~250mm?

And sure, the PS4's die size was more like 350mm but it had to include other things than just the GPU.

The 7870 ( which the PS4 GPU was roughly based on ) was 212mm. But that's JUST the GPU.

So if they base the PS5 GPU on the 5700(xt) ... that's bigger than what they used last gen, and would result in a total size of the APU north of 350mm.

Lockhart will be 350-360 mm2 on tsmc 7nm+ Euv

Ps5 310-330 mm2 on standard 7nm

Anaconda chipset solution
400 mm2 die gpu+i/o on tsmc 7nm+ euv and cpu die 100 mm2 on standard 7nm (12core 36threads, 3way smt)

 

[SonGoku]

Lockhart will be 350-360 mm2 on tsmc 7nm+ Euv

Ps5 310-330 mm2 on standard 7nm

Anaconda chipset solution
400 mm2 die gpu+i/o on tsmc 7nm+ euv and cpu die 100 mm2 on standard 7nm (12core 36threads, 3way smt)

Yeah i think PS5 going with a 36CU chip (7tf) with ssd secret sauce to make up for it
Im also hearing rumors Sony will sell the PlayStation division to Apple

 

[bitbydeath]

Lockhart will be 350-360 mm2 on tsmc 7nm+ Euv

Lockhart is rumoured to be cancelled.

 

[Farrell55]

If 7nm EUV is available at launch for consoles (pretty big if) 14TF would be EZ. Otherwise 12TF MAX
64CU @1710Mhz = 14TF (72CU total)
72CU @1520 = 14TF (80CU total) TLZ based dream

80CUs on 7nm EUV would come under 330mm2

7nm u

Yeah i think PS5 going with a 36CU chip (7tf) with ssd secret sauce to make up for it
Im also hearing rumors Sony will sell the PlayStation division to Apple

Yeah A 36cu gpu with a clockspeed of 1.2-1.3ghz is i descent Upgrade to the ps4pro

 

[TLZ]

Ju gais are cresee. *Trying to imitate a Spanish accent

 

[SonGoku]

Yeah A 36cu gpu with a clockspeed of 1.2-1.3ghz is i descent Upgrade to the ps4pro

Agree 100%
5.9TF with navi new arch efficiency would be a BEAST upgrade as a base spec to code to the metal
Im guessing 8gb gddr5 + 4gb ddr4 (for os)
6 core Zen2 clocked at 1.8Ghz

 

[Farrell55]

Agree 100!
5.9TF with navi new arch efficiency would be a BEAST upgrade as a base spec to code to the metal
Im guessing 8gbggd5 + 4gb ddr4 (for os)
Zen2 clocked at 1.8Ghz

Dont forget navis ipc improvements
Lets round up 6x1.25= 7.5tf
Gddr5 will Not happen! Im sure 12gb gddr6 on a 384bit bus in the case of sony and zen2 between 2.4 and 2.8ghz, 1.8ghz makes no sense

 

[SonGoku]

Dont forget navis ipc improvements
Lets round up 6x1.25= 7.5tf

BEAST

Gddr5 will Not happen! Im sure 12gb gddr6 on a 384bit bus in the case of sony and zen2 between 2.4 and 2.8ghz, 1.8ghz makes no sense

Hear me out
Inside sources (My uncle works for Sony dont tell pls ) tell me Sony got a huge discount deal for binned gddr5 chips and 256bit bus is the perfect balance for a 6tf gpu and 1.8gz cpu
They are aiming at a $299 price reveal megaton like the psx (playstation 25th anniversary)

They are also aiming at making PS5 the size of 3 DVD cases, so everything has to be in perfect balance.

Detailed Spec sheet

Spoiler

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[Lacix]

Wtf. Is this a parody thread now?

 

[Aceofspades]

I'm starting to see a pattern now, similar to pre launch of last gen

The situation: (Rumors hinting at Sony machine is more powerful than Microsoft's)

2013:

• Xbox has "move engins" ,
• Esram+DDR3 Ram total bandwidth is fast !
• "We created DirectX"
• Xbox has secret dGpu in the powerbank
• "Black crush is BEST"
• Xbox One is more BALANCED!
• Its all about OS (funny because Xbox was lagging and crawling to do simplest tasks )
• DAT ecosystem ...

2019:

• Xbox has Zen3
• RDNA? Fuck that Xbox uses next next gen RDNA2
• AMD had more giggling with MS!
• You can swap GPUs for more power !

Rest of the excuses are coming as more specs are unveiled.

 

[Aceofspades]

Wtf. Is this a parody thread now?

No..its just some xbox fans cannot accept that PS5 is more powerful than Scarlet, same happened in 2013 we are getting used to it every gen.

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

Developers / Journalists / Twitter / Rumour mill / Phil Spencer* says that Scarlett dev kits are under performing the PS5 dev kits.

If we assume this is true... for now. Where there's smoke etc.

What do we think are the reason(s) for this noticeable under performance?

*delete as appropriate

 

[FranXico]

No..its just some xbox fans cannot accept that PS5 is more powerful than Scarlet, same happened in 2013 we are getting used to it every gen.

And none of that is even confirmed! I can see Xbox having an edge, but the fanatics want nothing less than it to be incredibly powerful and blow PS5 out of the water. Their pride is on the line!

 

[bhunachicken]

If this is to be believed:

https://segmentnext.com/2019/06/15/...project-scarlett-but-is-this-really-the-case/

"So essentially, the real difference between Sony’s PlayStation 5 and Microsoft’s Project Scarlett is that the PS5 is said to have 8 cores."

Then it sounds like the PS5 will basically just have more stable frame rates at the end of the day. There will likely be Digital Foundry articles down the line showcasing how the PS5 maintains a steady 60fps during some sequences in games where Xbox Scarlet drops down to the low / mid 50s. And that'll probably be it..!

Or, in the case of dynamic resolutions shifts, Scarlet will be downshifting more often.

Otherwise, not something a lot of gamers will notice.

 

[FranXico]

If this is to be believed:

https://segmentnext.com/2019/06/15/...project-scarlett-but-is-this-really-the-case/

"So essentially, the real difference between Sony’s PlayStation 5 and Microsoft’s Project Scarlett is that the PS5 is said to have 8 cores."

Then it sounds like the PS5 will basically just have more stable frame rates at the end of the day. There will likely be Digital Foundry articles down the line showcasing how the PS5 maintains a steady 60fps during some sequences in games where Xbox Scarlet drops down to the low / mid 50s. And that'll probably be it..!

Or, in the case of dynamic resolutions shifts, Scarlet will be downshifting more often.

Otherwise, not something a lot of gamers will notice.

That would be similar to the X1 situation early gen. The difference was not that big anyway.

 

[TeamGhobad]

Its more cost effective to make a 400mm2 die that can be quickly shrunk to 340mm2 on 2021 without making any of the sacrifices a chiplet based gpu would incur.

i think this is what sony has done which is why their console is stronger. and MS went with "normal" 350mm2 without any foresight.

 

[ethomaz]

Its more cost effective to make a 400mm2 die that can be quickly shrunk to 340mm2 on 2021 without making any of the sacrifices a chiplet based gpu would incur.

Is chiplet based GPU really possible today? Are there any example?

You guys talking a lot about chiplet increased my curiosity.

To be fair chiplet design is a short term workaround to the real solution that AMD still need to find to continue the silicon shrink (the famous Moore law).

 

[demigod]

Wtf. Is this a parody thread now?

When they go low, you go low.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'm starting to see a pattern now, similar to pre launch of last gen

The situation: (Rumors hinting at Sony machine is more powerful than Microsoft's)

2013:

• Xbox has "move engins" ,
• Esram+DDR3 Ram total bandwidth is fast !
• "We created DirectX"
• Xbox has secret dGpu in the powerbank
• "Black crush is BEST"
• Xbox One is more BALANCED!
• Its all about OS (funny because Xbox was lagging and crawling to do simplest tasks )
• DAT ecosystem ...

2019:

• Xbox has Zen3
• RDNA? Fuck that Xbox uses next next gen RDNA2
• AMD had more giggling with MS!
• You can swap GPUs for more power !
• 
  

Rest of the excuses are coming as more specs are unveiled.

Considering how Xbox One / S vs PS4 has aged, DF was noticing that the gap between multi platform titles has widened between Xbox One S and PS4 (the S model has a CPU and GPU clock rate boost over the OG Xbox One)... all the “more balanced”, secret dGPU, DX12 upgrade talk, etc... feels a bit weird... the solution to the OG Xbox One was buying a new model (the S), and the solution to that update was to buy another model (the X)...

 

[Evilms]

More Rumors Surface Claiming PS5 Is "Definitively More Powerful" Than Xbox Scarlett

Earlier this week, a rumor surfaced claiming that the PlayStation 5 is more powerful than the Xbox [...]

comicbook.com

PS5 'Definitively More Powerful' Than Xbox Project Scarlett, According to Dev Kit Users

Following off the back of a rumor during E3 2019 week, a new source claims to have heard that the PS5 is 'definitively more powerful' than Xbox Project Scarlett.

gamerant.com

 

[jonnyp]

Has there been any speculation ITT about having multiple GPUs?

Not saying I think it's going to happen but it's worth speculating about.

That's definitely the direction things are headed. AMD already uses CPU chiplets and has already created a custom dual GPU solution for Apple where 2 GPU dies are connected by Infinity Fabric.

In theory you could take 2x 5700 dies, clock em way down to maybe 1.3GHz ( maybe this is the efficiency sweet spot ) connect them with infinity fabric and boom, you've got your 12 TFLOPS.

Connecting "GPU chiplets" is definitely what AMD is working towards. If they can get there before Nvidia it will allow them to easily regain the performance crown and hold it until Nvidia develops their own chiplet based designs.

You can only make a monolithic die so big and we've pretty much reached that point. We also can't count on many more node shrinks. A multi GPU chiplet design that is invisible to developers ( nothing like SLI ) is likely the way forward.

Is something like that going to make it into next gen consoles next year? .... Just speculating...

No, it's not going to happen and not worth speculating about.

 

[KlickKlack]

Summary of all rumors in layman's terms:

PS5 = cool
Xbox 2 = breathtaking

 

[KlickKlack]

More Rumors Surface Claiming PS5 Is "Definitively More Powerful" Than Xbox Scarlett

Earlier this week, a rumor surfaced claiming that the PlayStation 5 is more powerful than the Xbox [...]

comicbook.com

what if xbox has 10TF but plus spezial Hardware RT engines build in
and PS5 "only" standard Navi 12TF?

on paper Ps5 has more TF but when developers make game with big use of Raytracing Xbox 2 will destroy Ps5

 

[demigod]

Summary of all rumors in layman's terms:

PS5 = 8TF
Xbox 2 = 24TF

Fixed for you.

 

[Farrell55]

what if xbox has 10TF but plus spezial Hardware RT engines build in
and PS5 "only" standard Navi 12TF?

on paper Ps5 has more TF but when developers make game with big use of Raytracing Xbox 2 will destroy Ps5

Its highly likely that NextBox has more Raw power, better RT cababilitys, and Advaced Technology rdna1>>>>>>rdna2 (ps5 will be one generation behind from a technology standpoint)

 

[Geki-D]

what if xbox has 10TF but plus spezial Hardware RT engines build in
and PS5 "only" standard Navi 12TF?

on paper Ps5 has more TF but when developers make game with big use of Raytracing Xbox 2 will destroy Ps5

What if Xbox 2 is more powerful, but PS5 comes out months before at a lower price and destroys Xbox 2 just like practically every other gen where the first out, cheapest system has a massive advantage regardless of power?

 

[Farrell55]

What if Xbox 2 is more powerful, but PS5 comes out months before at a lower price and destroys Xbox 2 just like practically every other gen where the first out, cheapest system has a massive advantage regardless of power?

Because of that MS will Launch Lockhart for a even lower prove point than ps5 and superior hardware! Sony will be caught off guard

 

[Geki-D]

Because of that MS will Launch Lockhart for a even lower prove point than ps5 and superior hardware! Sony will be caught off guard

So MS announce at E3 a console, a release window... And you expect them to say "Sike! We've got another, weaker console out even sooner!"? Why would anyone actually buy that when they've already announced a more powerful one later down the line? You know that literally just rumours of the Pro & X slowed down console sales to a crawl, right? Also more power generally means more time needed, it's the trade-off. Expecting MS to rush out a system before the PS5 which is also more powerful than the PS5 it totally fantasist.

I guess it would be funny just to see another Sega Saturn situation, though.

 

[Farrell55]

I'm starting to see a pattern now, similar to pre launch of last gen

The situation: (Rumors hinting at Sony machine is more powerful than Microsoft's)

2013:

• Xbox has "move engins" ,
• Esram+DDR3 Ram total bandwidth is fast !
• "We created DirectX"
• Xbox has secret dGpu in the powerbank
• "Black crush is BEST"
• Xbox One is more BALANCED!
• Its all about OS (funny because Xbox was lagging and crawling to do simplest tasks )
• DAT ecosystem ...

2019:

• Xbox has Zen3
• RDNA? Fuck that Xbox uses next next gen RDNA2
• AMD had more giggling with MS!
• You can swap GPUs for more power !

Rest of the excuses are coming as more specs are unveiled.

Are you serious

What let you believe ps5 will be more powerfull?

Phil promised they will set the benchmark again, and when ms Not deliver can you Imagine the shitstorm...

Spencer will deliver at any cost!

 

[Farrell55]

So MS announce at E3 a console, a release window... And you expect them to say "Sike! We've got another, weaker console out even sooner!"? Why would anyone actually buy that when they've already announced a more powerful one later down the line? You know that literally just rumours of the Pro & X slowed down console sales to a crawl, right? Also more power generally means more time needed, it's the trade-off. Expecting MS to rush out a system before the PS5 which is also more powerful than the PS5 it totally fantasist.

I guess it would be funny just to see another Sega Saturn situation, though.

you are right i dont say they Launch before ps5 btw i think Lockhart and Scarlett will Launch at the same Time! But my Point is that ms has with Lockhart an system with even lower price Point than ps5 at the same Time with more powerfull and Advanced hardware

 

[DForce]

Are you serious

What let you believe ps5 will be more powerfull?

Phil promised they will set the benchmark again, and when ms Not deliver can you Imagine the shitstorm...

Spencer will deliver at any cost!

deep into architecting the next Xbox consoles, where we will once again deliver on our commitment to deliver the benchmark of console gaming.

Benchmark in console gaming. If this is the quote you're referring to, then it says benchmark in console gaming, and it doesn't necessarily mean power.

 

[Geki-D]

ms has with Lockhart an system with even lower prove Point than ps5 at the same Time with more powerfull and Advanced hardware

So MS will have not one but TWO systems out more powerful than the PS5, one of which despite being more powerful will also be cheaper no matter what.
...I mean, what can I say, this says it all:

Spencer will deliver at any cost!

I can't argue with religious dogma...

 

[wordslaughter]

Is chiplet based GPU really possible today? Are there any example?

You guys talking a lot about chiplet increased my curiosity.

To be fair chiplet design is a short term workaround to the real solution that AMD still need to find to continue the silicon shrink (the famous Moore law).

There is a proto-example found in the new ultra expensive Mac Pro.

Announcing the new AMD Radeon Pro Vega II Duo

As part of new Mac Pro that is, 32 GB HBM2, 14 TFLOPs (& Vega II Duo with x2 of everything on the same board. AMD today announced the Radeon Pro Vega II and Pro Vega II Duo graphics cards, for th...

www.guru3d.com

I'm not sure of all the details but it does seem to be foreshadowing the suture IMO. It's basically 2 GPU dies connected by infinity fabric.

The holy grail would be if they could get multiple GPU dies connected in a way that is invisible to the developer and simply appears as one GPU to the application or game.

I'm not sure how close the Radeon Pro Vega II Duo is to that goal.

AMD is already doing exactly that with CPUs and look how well that's going. How much more complicated it is to achieve the same with GPUs... I'm not sure. But if AMD can achieve it before Nvidia, it would rock the industry. If I had investing money I would go hard in AMD stocks.

 

[llien]

PS5 "only" standard Navi 12TF?

5700XT that allegedly beats 2070 is 9.something Tflops.

 

[Thedtrain]

you are right i dont say they Launch before ps5 btw i think Lockhart and Scarlett will Launch at the same Time! But my Point is that ms has with Lockhart an system with even lower price Point than ps5 at the same Time with more powerfull and Advanced hardware

Misterx?

That you?

 

[Farrell55]

All the rumors of ps5 being 14+tf... sony fans will get very dissapointment

How will sony managed to cool that, its absolutely not possible, a 100 maybe 120w soc is the best we can expect in the case of sony

I expect sony will sell the ps5 at launch for a low margin profit where ms sell both of their systems at loss!

 

[nowhat]

I expect sony will sell the ps5 at launch for a low margin profit where ms sell both of their systems at loss!

...and you're basing this absolutely on conjecture, nothing more. It's par for course for this thread I guess.

 

[Aceofspades]

All the rumors of ps5 being 14+tf... sony fans will get very dissapointment

How will sony managed to cool that, its absolutely not possible, a 100 maybe 120w soc is the best we can expect in the case of sony

I expect sony will sell the ps5 at launch for a low margin profit where ms sell both of their systems at loss!

I fear for your poor soul if PS5 ends up more powerful

 

[Farrell55]

I fear for your poor soul if PS5 ends up more powerful

Thats not gonna happen!

Btw Can we expect from Scarletts second gen Rdna2 another 1.25% ipc improvement? What do you think guys?