Support NeoGAF

[Metroiddarks]

Funny how everyone now talks about RDNA 1.0 1.5 2.0 2.1 2.1 (higher is better), TFLOPs (my flops are better than yours), Ray Tracing (HARDWARE)......but no talk about games?! I mean you guys are all Mark Cerny now?

Yeah this thing always happens doesn't matter the generation, the specs are important yeah but only few people actually care and less actually understand it.

But that doesn't mean is not fun talk about that for example I am not fan of some things in PS5 compare with XSX but even with that delta between those are smaller than the last gen but doesn't mean I don't think I prefer the first party of SIE agains Xbox studios.

 

[pasterpl]

So we shouldn't listen to first party developers who like anything about the PS5, but the opinion of first party Xbox developers about Xbox features is important?

You know why, because we've seen the best looking games from PS4 this gen, and Sony has a track record of being game-focused since 1994. And we mentioned all those because those aren't interpreted, those are facts said by the LEAD architect of PS5 himself.

XSX is a great piece of hardware, what it lacks in speed compensates by brute forcing it as described by devs. Let's see how this "our most powerful console" turn out.

“best looking“ can be subjective, I mean that there are some games on xbone that are great from technical point of view ie. resolution, FPS etc. While their art style might not be very appealing to everyone, from pure tech point of view these are very impressive. I give it to Sony, their first party studios can pull off some amazing stuff and are probably the best people in the business when we are talking about the 3rd person adventure games.

re. What devs say, I would wait until some big 3rd party release their games on both platforms - I seriously doubt that there will be any major differences there, but this should be our indicator which platform is “better”, at least for 3rd party games. I will not lie, I‘ve already made my mind, I am getting xsex day one and will wait for ps5 pro.

 

[pasterpl]

everyone assumes that ps5 has worse rt because it has 36 cu 1 cor rt for cu. and if cerny has put inside the cu 2 core rt for cu it would have 72 cores rt, remember that nobody has the dimensions of the ps5 die do not do it deceive by the number of cu, for those who doubt that it is rdna2 because it does not have the vrs, and because cerny has eliminated it since it cannot use it and optimize it and it is only a waste of resources for memory and executions instead of the vrs has implemented the geometry egine which is a much more powerful and optimizable engine in programming and intersection egine in addition the internal parts of the gpu have a frequency of 33% faster than that of the alu (rasterization, cache and most likely also the rt cores)

are we sure that PS5 doesn’t have the VRS?

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

One thing that bothers me about this exaggeratedly tall 2.2 clock is that there will be a console in the future that allows the replacement of the ps5, to be backwards compatible, a new technology will have to use superior clocks and this is not always possible. It may be a indication that ps5 is the last physical PlayStation.

They will find a way, the idea that in seven years streaming could be enough to justify something like PlayStation to go in the cloud is ridiculous to me. There will be the demand for a physical box still for a lot of time, and you can't just beat the input lag and the consistency of normal gaming, especially in titles like actions and multiplayers. Also, I doubt that in a single generation the global connection will go so high that Sony (or MS) wont loose a cut of playerbase, because with streaming you are voluntarily saying "you can't play games" to some areas.
Also, is very risky to bet on a subscription model for the entirety of the industry, unless you want to make people pay for each title. Yeah, good like with that. And in general, they just make tons of money having streaming, consoles and digital/retail all togheter, not even including Plus.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

exactly. they even mentioned that in presentation. many times. people just see TF and that is it. the presentation was really good if you are not blind.

to learn to develop a game on PS5 developers will need less than a month. it is record braking short period. + they set out to eliminate bottlenecks in many areas that they can produce 10TF all the time, after that they reach limitation from almost all parts.

this again was evidence how they showed the progression from hdd to ssd. if ssd is faster 10 times, the real performance gain was just 2 times. we can see that in xbox, they has bottleneck in the Series X already, so what will happen in 1 year? they said that their SSD is faster 40 times yet, game from 2018 was loaded just 5 times faster. huge bottleneck somewhere. new games with new technologies going to give even more stress for ssd.

Yup, sounds the Xbox been built on https://buildmypc.net/ website. Great and all, but doesn't sound like in-depth. PS5 is 100x faster by the way. Games will clear out all this fog.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

are we sure that PS5 doesn’t have the VRS?

Isn't that Geometry shit something that also SeX has but with another name, coupled with VRS?
Anyway no, we aren't sure simply because there is no word about it yet.

 

[xool]

are we sure that PS5 doesn’t have the VRS?

I'm 90+% sure it does - most of the features are just RDNA / RDNA2 features and both consoles have them. Sony has custom audio and custom SSD - why they mentioned them .. everything else is a give I think. (VRR / HDM2.1 / VRS whatever )

 

[liviopangt]

are we sure that PS5 doesn’t have the VRS?

for what little I was able to know from one of the sector yes because he told me that the vrs is a good instrument but at the level of geometry egine the vrs have tested it but it is not so optimizable

 

[scie]

Yup, sounds the Xbox been built on https://buildmypc.net/ website. Great and all, but doesn't sound like in-depth. PS5 is 100x faster by the way. Games will clear out all this fog.

It is because the game was loading the old fashioned way. They even stated that in some video that basically the series x was just running the code of the One X with no direct access to the ssd. This is why on PCs the load time difference between a standard SSD and a NVME drive is minimal. And therefore on old games you won´t see no to instand load times. It won´t be possible, because the old games weren´t designed to gain instant access to the SSD.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

“best looking“ can be subjective, I mean that there are some games on xbone that are great from technical point of view ie. resolution, FPS etc. While their art style might not be very appealing to everyone, from pure tech point of view these are very impressive. I give it to Sony, their first party studios can pull off some amazing stuff and are probably the best people in the business when we are talking about the 3rd person adventure games.

re. What devs say, I would wait until some big 3rd party release their games on both platforms - I seriously doubt that there will be any major differences there, but this should be our indicator which platform is “better”, at least for 3rd party games. I will not lie, I‘ve already made my mind, I am getting xsex day one and will wait for ps5 pro.

I hope you enjoy your XSX! The way I see it: XSX deals with the lack of speed by brute force, and PS5 deals with the lack of brute force with speed.

More like a speedy punch from a "lighter" boxer can match a slower punch from a "heavier" boxer to produce similar weight/impact.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It is because the game was loading the old fashioned way. They even stated that in some video that basically the series x was just running the code of the One X with no direct access to the ssd. This is why on PCs the load time difference between a standard SSD and a NVME drive is minimal. And therefore on old games you won´t see no to instand load times. It won´t be possible, because the old games weren´t designed to gain instant access to the SSD.

You well see no loading screen if it's too fast, that's a given. It'll be massively fast to the point for games with short loading screens it'll be instant. It has nothing to do on how the game designed.

 

[scie]

You well see no loading screen if it's too fast, that's a given. It'll be massively fast to the point for games with short loading screens it'll be instant. It has nothing to do on how the game designed.

I am with you on new games, but not on old games from the previous generation

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I am with you on new games, but not on old games from the previous generation

We should see as I'm not referring to forced cut-scenes.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

but it is okay to listen to Schreier and his hearsay from unnamed developers which people quote here on every other page. Please.

But they are the same that provided him all those spot on details lately?

 

[liviopangt]

remember that xbox still loads the old way - ssd, cpu ram, cpu, ram, gpu, redering, ps5 ssd, ram, cpu, gpu, redering.

 

[scie]

We should see as I'm not referring to forced cut-scenes.

You forgot the elevator rides, the weird zig zag corridors in buildings and massive armoured doors that need ages to open

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Guys I have a question. I know each new architecture improve memory bandwidth but I wonder if it can also reduce VRAM usage in games as well? Sometimes 1080ti vs 2080ti shows similar VRAM usage, but there are also scenarios when VRAM usage looks little bit different and I wonder why is that?

Again, that can be reduced by PS5 Ultra Fast SSD! Again and again, that magical SSD is the true super-hero that compensates for all.

 

[liviopangt]

ram video xbox has 10 gb ram video que 3, 5 gb slower nn will never be used by the gpu would slow down the execution of the games, ps5 probably 16gb ram are all for video memory, the os will be run in the sram of the I \ 0 custom chip

 

[pasterpl]

But they are the same that provided him all those spot on details lately?

i Don’t think that there were any specific details in shraiers messages

 

[Wandering Leopard]

ram video xbox has 10 gb ram video que 3, 5 gb slower nn will never be used by the gpu would slow down the execution of the games, ps5 probably 16gb ram are all for video memory, the os will be run in the sram of the I \ 0 custom chip

ps5 probably 16gb ram are all for video memory,

- you said probably, but this is highly highly unlikely.​

the os will be run in the sram of the I \ 0 custom chip

- this is just wrong.​

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Read my original post, summary is that Cernys said it's built into the CUs and says nothing about it being dedicated, offloaded, separate, or full parallel performance with the 36 CUs, unlike the MS architect, where the shaders aren't impacted in fact he, Cerny, says it's built into the CUs. MS is making a distinction that's it's offloaded from the CU hardware whereas Sony is saying it's built into the CU hardware.

Sounds like MS has additional RT cores that are most likely RDNA2 based maybe in addition to the RT AMD functionality baked into the CUs(ala PS5) too..possibly in addition.

Sony and MS describe it way different.

You don't say? So Xbox has 120CU's, right? Or let's say PS5 is RDNA1 and Navi 10 and has no RT cores. Go ahead. Mark "Freakin" Cerny been lying to us all this time.

 

[johnjohn]

One insider that doesn't get enough credit is Matt. Way back around E3 he hinted that Xbox would continue to be the best place to play third party games and he ended up being right. He also hinted that they'd be around 15%-20% apart and he was right about that too. He must have been having a good laugh all these months lol.

 

[semicool]

You don't say? So Xbox has 120CU's, right? Or let's say PS5 is RDNA1 and Navi 10 and has no RT cores. Go ahead. Mark "Freakin" Cerny been lying to us all this time.

Hyperbolic much? I cannot discuss with you strawman fallacy arguments as you such presented. Being flippant and facetious is fun for humor(although nothing you wrote was funny) but provides no tech discussion value.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Hyperbolic much? I cannot discuss with you strawman fallacy arguments as you such presented. Being flippant and facetious is fun for humor(although nothing you wrote was funny) but provides no tech discussion value.

Ok, sorry. Continue what you were doing.

 

[CuriousToe]

One insider that doesn't get enough credit is Matt. Way back around E3 he hinted that Xbox would continue to be the best place to play third party games and he ended up being right. He also hinted that they'd be around 15%-20% apart and he was right about that too. He must have been having a good laugh all these months lol.

Someone also suggested that PS5 might be neck and neck with the XSX on multiplats and he replied with a clear no.

I think it's fine to be excited about the PS5 tech (I am). But I'm seeing alot of delusional discussion about PS5 performance. At the end of the day, it will not run multiplats as well as XSX.

On the flip side I am seeing alot of effort from Xbox loyalists to downplay PS5 specs. At the end of the day, even with "variable clocks" we're looking at the smallest performance gap between Xbox/Playstation to date.

 

[zeroeffect]

Probably talked about in here...but who has the better compression/decompression capability? I'd imagine this impacts game development especially on the SSD...? Is it possible the PS5's focus is just too ambitious? I find it the more intriguing console but some of it is hard to believe. I want to see some demos.

 

[Spreewaldgurke]

 

[Andodalf]

On the flip side I am seeing alot of effort from Xbox loyalists to downplay PS5 specs. At the end of the day, even with "variable clocks" we're looking at the smallest performance gap between Xbox/Playstation to date.

I'd say the PS3/360 era was closer. They were practically twins by the time devs figured out how to make the Cell work well enough and work with split memory pools.

 

[semicool]

Ok, sorry. Continue what you were doing.

I was writing a lengthy post about how you were one of the true GitHub believers based on your post history and are now vindicated. That your speculation is beyond reproach. That was you wasn't it?

 

[pasterpl]

Xbox Series X: 5 things you need to know

The hour is almost nigh – here’s the critical info on the next-gen Xbox

www.techradar.com

 

[LordOfChaos]

Probably talked about in here...but who has the better compression/decompression capability? I'd imagine this impacts game development especially on the SSD...? Is it possible the PS5's focus is just too ambitious? I find it the more intriguing console but some of it is hard to believe. I want to see some demos.

I doubt we could say until we know more, but right now it appears Microsoft supports more formats (i.e some more applicable to GPU side compression), while Sony spent more silicon eliminating all possible bottlenecks including DMAs etc mostly using Kraken

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I was writing a lengthy post about how you were one of the true GitHub believers based on your post history and are now vindicated. That your speculation is beyond reproach. That was you wasn't it?

I was open to all speculations, not a believer in any. If someone (with all due respect, no disrespect intended) says he has a 9" tool, or a 13" in that matter, I should be open about him saying the truth or not, I won't say send me a photo of it. As this is being a speculation thread. But Xbox not saying that they have extra RT cores, or Sony not saying they're software-based, then that should be out of the window.

I myself was the exact opposite, I was more like an anti-Github, but you should always be open if no confirmation provided.

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

Bo_Hazem

I think you were totally right about the audio thing this morning.

Apparetly XSX could only have 9.6tf of raw power for video purposes after all

On paper 12 TFLOPS is an awesome number, however, when you remove 20% of that computational power for audio purposes, you are left with about 9.6 TFLOPS for everything else necessary to bring your game to life. Still and impressive resource of power allocation. Yet, for the PlayStation 5, the GPU has no audio responsibility, allowing the creators to utilize as much of the systems raw 10.28 TFLOPS of power.

Source:

Game-insider.com

Funny times ahead

 

[semicool]

I was open for all speculations, not a believer in any. If someone (with all due respect, no disrespect intended) says he has a 9" tool, or a 13" in that matter, I should be open about him saying the truth or not, I won't say send me a photo of it. As this is being a speculation thread. But Xbox not saying that they have extra RT cores, or Sony not saying they're software-based, then that should be out of the window.

I myself was the exact opposite, I was more like an anti-Github, but you should always be open if no confirmation provided.

Andrew Goossen. "For the Series X, this work is offloaded onto dedicated hardware and the shader can continue to run in parallel with full performance." Doesn't sound like the intersection calculation is built into the shaders for XSX like pS5 which Cerny said it's built into the shaders(maybe it's both separate and built in for MS which is where the 25TF number comes from ?) which is why the ps5 shaders are bigger than PS4 s so....if so...does that indicate a different setup? Perhaps. Microsoft would just be doing what Nvidia does with their separate RT cores where it does sound like Sony is. Also if built into the shader for Sony does that mean that the shader is occupied for Ray Tracing? Which is different from what Gossen is saying for XSX. Someone should ask Sony that particular detail on their RT setup. Again just speculation. But the potential for that speculation is there based on what both architects have said so far.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Bo_Hazem

I think you were totally right about the audio thing this morning.

Apparetly XSX could only have 9.6tf of raw power for video purposes after all



Source:

Game-insider.com

Wait. Wait.
Are we REALLY sure about this? Because this would be a total 180 and put PS5 on top, kind of strange that Cerny didn't stright up explained that very easily so everyone could catch it.

 

[Mindtaker]

So the Sony-cultists from this forum say that Dictator is MS biased because they don't like the reality, nice...

 

[nikolino840]

If ps5 Is faster bigger better mean high price right?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Bo_Hazem

I think you were totally right about the audio thing this morning.

Apparetly XSX could only have 9.6tf of raw power for video porpose after all



Source:

Game-insider.com

Come to think about it, it's 100% true. That Xbox chip is more of a processing tool to offload CPU, but not necessarily freeing the GPU from its homework.

Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip. “It's extremely exciting,” senior sound designer Daniele Galante said of the new console. “We're going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won't have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.”

It would be a nightmare to squeeze more of that short 10GB ram, so they went for that one.

The Tempest on the other hand is referred to as "ENGINE" and it's based on a GPU unit used back with the PS3 with modern modifications.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

If ps5 Is faster bigger better mean high price right?

Can't be more than 599 but in my opinion even SeX will stretch it a lot with 599. Right now PS5 doesn't seem to be appreciated hardware wise and if it continue like this it will need to have a lower price than SeX I think.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Andrew Goossen. "For the Series X, this work is offloaded onto dedicated hardware and the shader can continue to run in parallel with full performance." Doesn't sound like the intersection calculation is built into the shaders for XSX like pS5 which Cerny said it's built into the shaders(maybe it's both separate and built in for MS which is where the 25TF number comes from ?) which is why the ps5 shaders are bigger than PS4 s so....if so...does that indicate a different setup? Perhaps. Microsoft would just be doing what Nvidia does with their separate RT cores where it does sound like Sony is. Also if built into the shader for Sony does that mean that the shader is occupied for Ray Tracing? Which is different from what Gossen is saying for XSX. Someone should ask Sony that particular detail on their RT setup. Again just speculation. But the potential for that speculation is there based on what both architects have said so far.

It can be to avoid heat? Sony must be doing some wacky cooling system here, and with XSX lack of strong cooling other than one fan placed above they couldn't gamble a lot. Some reports suggested heat problems with XSX that forced them to down clock to 11.6, hence the number that OsirisBlack referring to. Or it can be bollocks as well, but let's not forget that it's packing 52 CU and that might provide much more heat with all of them running at max speeds all the time. Also let's not mention the 3.8Ghz without saying 8 core and 8 threads, otherwise it's 3.6Ghz with 6 cores and 16 threads.

How can that external cores work? Probably weaker per core, hence the elegant RT solution in PS5. Only assumptions anyway.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Bo_Hazem

I think you were totally right about the audio thing this morning.

Apparetly XSX could only have 9.6tf of raw power for video purposes after all



Source:

Game-insider.com

If XSX doesn't has a chip audio for this that will true but is not, XSX has a chip audio also, the same peoply of Ninja theory says they don't need to use resource from other parts now.

Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip, Ninja Theory engineers reveal

Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip, Ninja Theory engineers reveal Hardware acceleration could enable 3D audio Xbox Series X will have its own dedicated audio chip, which will improve the quality of sound in next-gen games, first-party engineers have told VGC. Hardware...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Mindtaker]

Both have 3D Audio chips

 

[thelastword]

Just saying because I have read from you several comments downplaying the PS5 & Sony, as it all were a fucking mess because it has 1.8tf less... It sounds a bit acted up.

True developers (no fake insiders saying the PS5 had 52CUs) are saying that the PS5 can do things that we cant even start to understand.

Anyway, man. I guess you will have your reasons to post the way you do but I would wait to see what the PS5 really can do before concluding that it is a piece of shit.

Maybe this can cheer you up

Exact moment when Mark Cerny talk about the 22GB/s using kraken compresion

Not just that, but the decompression you get with Kraken would take the equivalent of 9 Zen 2 processors......That is just bonkers.....

and still people think DF isn't biased?

Funny thing is,

he thinks NX Gamer is a rookie

DF's penchant for Microsoft is becoming more and more visible

You guys should have seen how Dictator, Durante and other DF staff use to gang-up on NXgamer trying to embarrass him at every turn on old GAF..........I was one of those who started posting his videos early on, I thought he did great work and his attention to detail was way above the rest....I think that his analysis on the UC4 trailer did him in very early with those guys "how dare you praise a Sony game so much" and of course when he showed many things in his faceoff the others didn't and showed opposed framerate views in his videos, the mobbers came at him with lots of angst and vitriol...…It's crazy that he always stayed civil through it all though...Kudos to that...

Yet I think early in Resetera's forum life, one of his videos was at loggerheads with that of DF's and they came at him fierce, Durante was a mod over there at the time and he went in hard and encouraged others to do the same, he never locked the thread when the attacks became more toxic as he was the primary gunner...It was then I think NXgamer decided to quit and thankfully many fans rallied and he came back 1 year or so later...…Man this comparison business is really serious business......Yet, I always appreciate a level head in those things and he gave so much new and valuable insight/info into every single analysis and interjected a bit of humor in there as well, which suggests a very informed and well rounded individual.....

Of course that crowd of Dictator, Durante etc....we don't really see eye to eye and had many disagreements on OLD GAF, nothing has changed though they argue with those who don't agree with their assessments or who have different views, they immediately get to personal insults and grandstanding...….

In any case, we would like to remain on the positives.....I wish NXgamer the best, and I hope he maintains his composure......Yet moreso, I hope he is preparing some awesome videos for us next gen.....I think it will be the most exciting gen of the last few decades...…...Hardware is finally heavily customized and great again...

 

[Dane]

"It takes a strong man to deny what's right in front of him, and if the truth is undenieable, you create your own"

 

[Bo_Hazem]

If ps5 Is faster bigger better mean high price right?

It depends on weight and dimension of the boxing, for now XSX will have unusual box and that could result into added costs to shipping and space needed for each container.

PS5 form factor is unknown anyway, but it's heavily customized so can see both being similarly priced. If the rumored BOM are correct then PS5 is $450 and XSX is around $470-520. PS5 can push that $50 and make it $400 if needed.

 

[ethomaz]

Wait. Wait.
Are we REALLY sure about this? Because this would be a total 180 and put PS5 on top, kind of strange that Cerny didn't stright up explained that very easily so everyone could catch it.

Why should Cerny talk about Xbox?

BTW the “news“ is fake imo.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Quality.

I don't know, that 12 sounds like a flaccid one

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Why should Cerny talk about Xbox?

BTW the “news“ is fake imo.

It should't, he can talk about it indirectly.
I believe it's too stupid to be true honestly, but if true it would be a massive SeX vulnerability and Cerny could have just thrown a graph to compare how much TFs audio take from, let's say, a 12 TF system and how this make it inferior to their 10 TF system. Marketing, ya know.

 

[ethomaz]

Look at this thread.

Project Acoustics XSX Audio Video

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/cognitive-services/acoustics/what-is-acoustics

www.neogaf.com

The guys didn’t realize it is a software coded that can be used even Xbox One probably processed by CPU or GPU.

I don’t want to cut their happiness.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

One insider that doesn't get enough credit is Matt. Way back around E3 he hinted that Xbox would continue to be the best place to play third party games and he ended up being right. He also hinted that they'd be around 15%-20% apart and he was right about that too. He must have been having a good laugh all these months lol.

he never said Xbox would be the best place to play games

he theorized that it would have a TF advantage

But is that reason enough to definitively say it’ll be the best place to play games? I don’t think so