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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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DJ12

Member
It is definitely not unreasonable. No one is getting wine tier performance at beer budget prices.
Pretty sure the design cost and royalty fee per unit wouldn't be considered a 'beer budget' price to AMD.

For argument's sake, 100 million for the design, a further 100
Next gen is due 2020, they must be assembling parts as we speak, millions of consoles for a world wide launch, not to mention parts getting cheaper as times goes on, now you telling me : EUV & RDNA2 that AMD just pattend for RT gonna be ready in 2020 for millions of people at a console price, ok
You gonna tell me PS4 pro gpu wasn't more advanced than anything amd had in the market before it was released?

Also that patent was filled in 2017, so thanks for proving it's more likely RDNA+/next gen is included in consoles. Didn't really pay any attention to the patent until you mentioned it. Got to fact check the alts, no easy ride for them either.
 

DJ12

Member
Pretty sure the design cost and royalty fee per unit wouldn't be considered a 'beer budget' price to AMD.

For argument's sake, 100 million for the design, a further 100
This don't make sense thought I deleted it. Lol must remember not to post from my phone when I am sat on front of a desktop lol
 
We already knew, but nice to have confirmation.
i already post it before

Paul Alcorn: With PCIe 4.0 there was a pretty big lag there before it was introduced, and PCIe 5.0 is just right around the corner. Do you guys foresee a faster uptake of PCIe 5.0 such that PCIe 4.0 will be shortlived?

Lisa Su:
Well I think it remains to be seen. Things always seem like they’re going to be faster, and things always take a little bit longer than expected.

didn't know Sony & MS business model is based on another company promess to deliver it in time .
 

ANIMAL1975

Member
Like I said both will ignore TF numbers as the plague...

I bet both won’t have Stadia TF numbers, doesn’t matter Navi flops are better, the number is lower. So marketing wise you can’t use it.

Max 10 TF. And that’s stretching it ...

What?...

We plan to do that by further improving the computational power of the console, measured in TFLOPS (Tera Floating-point Operations Per Second), and by dramatically increasing the graphics rendering speed through the employment of a customized ultra-fast, broadband SSD
 
So Gonzalo then...



这段代码是2G16002CE8JA2_32/10/10_13E9,预计将是之前Navi 10Lite GPU的迭代,鸿福彩票网,这个提升太惊人了,鸿福彩票平台,然而,同时将搭载二代Ryzen架构CPU和Navi架构GPU,3.2GHz频率。

This code is 2G16002CE8JA2_32/10/10_13E9, is expected to be the iteration of the previous Navi 10Lite GPU, Hongfu lottery network, this upgrade is too amazing, Hongfu lottery platform, however, will also be equipped with second-generation Ryzen architecture CPU and Navi architecture GPU, 3.2 GHz frequency.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://skmxn.com/xingyexinwen/49.html
 
Pretty sure the design cost and royalty fee per unit wouldn't be considered a 'beer budget' price to AMD.

For argument's sake, 100 million for the design, a further 100

You gonna tell me PS4 pro gpu wasn't more advanced than anything amd had in the market before it was released?

Also that patent was filled in 2017, so thanks for proving it's more likely RDNA+/next gen is included in consoles. Didn't really pay any attention to the patent until you mentioned it. Got to fact check the alts, no easy ride for them either.

AMD filed for a patent in 2017 which described a "hybrid" ray tracing solution that wouldn't solely rely on hardware-accelerated ray tracing.

you don't even know what HYBRID RT is, you clearly dont pay attention to my posts, AGAIN AMD is using SHADERS for RT.
 

FrostyJ93

Member
So Brad Sames recently posted a video about a Xcloud microconsole being in the works still. I can see it. Makes more sense than Lockhart. Especially if it has somecompute inside to deal with gameplay stuff like control input while xcloud handles the graphics.
 

DJ12

Member
AMD filed for a patent in 2017 which described a "hybrid" ray tracing solution that wouldn't solely rely on hardware-accelerated ray tracing.

you don't even know what HYBRID RT is, you clearly dont pay attention to my posts, AGAIN AMD is using SHADERS for RT.
Seems like you don't pay any attention to them either. You're the one that said they've only just patented it so it won't be included, not me. Unless you are referring to another patent that no one else knows about yet then you are obviously talking about the one filed in December 2017.
 
Seems like you don't pay any attention to them either. You're the one that said they've only just patented it so it won't be included, not me. Unless you are referring to another patent that no one else knows about yet then you are obviously talking about the one filed in December 2017.

you can go back and read my posts where i said that RDNA 1 RT solution is SHADERS not hardware, i never said it wont be RT.

here is the road map

https://external-preview.redd.it/_y...bp&s=e89a8e41c324b399ae9d76b745314b7d8220766c

check the SHADER solution, "GCN & RDNA" current Gen is GCN, if you want backward comp its easier with RDNA 1 thats what next gen is going for you plug ps4 cd or digital copy and play on your ps5.

Ian Cutress, AnandTech: Given that Ray Tracing has been announced in the PS5 specs, can you say if that’s a specific Sony optimization or is that inherent in RDNA?

David Wang, AMD: We started RDNA before the Sony engagement. I think RDNA is revolutionary, and it is very flexible in terms of being able to be customized for different types of workloads.

he basically saying that RDNA 1 is flexible and can handle Hybrid RT if Devs wants to, if not, the answer would have been we do support RT and it's hardware accelerated, we have RT cores people come buy our products and it's cheaper than Nvidia .
 

DJ12

Member
Next gen is due 2020, they must be assembling parts as we speak, millions of consoles for a world wide launch, not to mention parts getting cheaper as times goes on, now you telling me : EUV & RDNA2 that AMD just pattend for RT gonna be ready in 2020 for millions of people at a console price, ok
For the hard of remembering, this is what you said, I assume sarcastically.

Don't try and back track now.

The patent was filed December 2017, not "just".

Both consoles have hardware raytracing, ergo both consoles are not RDNA, but 'Next gen' RDNA

I can see the trouble this causes, as it also makes your TF prediction redundant (assuming you are an alt account for R600) as you only have RDNA to work from, who knows what IPC gains AMD will make/have made for 'Next Gen' RDNA.
 

ANIMAL1975

Member
Yes.. does it state a hard TF number? No it states an increase ..

If they can’t reach 12 TF , 2x Xbox one X, they will just state 2 times computational power .. even if it’s 8 TF Navi.

Ofcourse he doesn't give away concrete information one year and a half before release, and before full blown presentation to the media!
What he gives, in a PS5 strategy meeting, is the intention of qualifying the power of the thing by TFLOPS, (the exact opposite of what you're saying) not SSD and fast loadings, Zen2 evolution and benchmarks, like some people been supporting to defend their theory of low TF count...
We plan to do that by further improving the computational power of the console, measured in TFLOPS (Tera Floating-point Operations Per Second),
... isn't this crystal clear?!
 

R600

Banned
Paging R600

The new code announced this time is ZG16702AE8JB2_32/10/18_13F8. The newly exposed APU chip is likely to be Microsoft's next-generation Xbox chip, which may lead to 1.8GHz. AMD's new game console APU will have 8 physics. At the core, the GPU frequency in PS4Pro is only 911MHz.

I think this is misstranslation. From what I see, its just guessing for which platform this is for.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
i already post it before

Paul Alcorn: With PCIe 4.0 there was a pretty big lag there before it was introduced, and PCIe 5.0 is just right around the corner. Do you guys foresee a faster uptake of PCIe 5.0 such that PCIe 4.0 will be shortlived?

Lisa Su:
Well I think it remains to be seen. Things always seem like they’re going to be faster, and things always take a little bit longer than expected.

didn't know Sony & MS business model is based on another company promess to deliver it in time .


Not quite sure what you're getting at. PCI-e 4.0 was ratified in 2017, but it takes another silicon development cycle to build that into chipsets after that. 5.0 may be adopted faster as 4 was so delayed and some might even skip 4.0 altogether, but 5 being ratified now means it won't likely be ready for holiday 2020 for the consoles.

What Lisa is effectively answering here is the question of "Aren't you worried Intel will leapfrog you with 5.0, even though you're the first out with 4.0, seeing as Intel may be skipping 4 on desktops entirely?" and Lisas answer is "They're just as bound by dev time as anyone, so that's not likely". This isn't particularly related to consoles.


Anyways, 4.0 making it in under the wire for the 9th gen consoles is great news in itself and will likely provide more than enough bandwidth than chips of this calibre will need, giving us a nice boost on things like the SSD.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
A much more well thought report on that 21st May strategy meeting, from Yahoo Finance:
Sony starts talking PS5 strategy
Some key points








And there is more stuff worth the read,... what do you guys take from this?... improve my computing power measured in Tflops if old 👴
Sony is basically telling you we will delivery higher TFLOPS than competition.

In resume we have that PR talk...

MS: CPU 4x, Cloud
Sony: TFLOPS, SDD beyond PC
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Yes.. does it state a hard TF number? No it states an increase ..

If they can’t reach 12 TF , 2x Xbox one X, they will just state 2 times computational power .. even if it’s 8 TF Navi.
It is pretty clear Sony will talk about TFLOPS numbers in their marketing strategy.
That means they are confident in two points: it will be something gamers wont't be disappointed (>10TFs) and it will bigger than competition.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

Member
Not quite sure what you're getting at. PCI-e 4.0 was ratified in 2017, but it takes another silicon development cycle to build that into chipsets after that. 5.0 may be adopted faster as 4 was so delayed and some might even skip 4.0 altogether, but 5 being ratified now means it won't likely be ready for holiday 2020 for the consoles.

What Lisa is effectively answering here is the question of "Aren't you worried Intel will leapfrog you with 5.0, even though you're the first out with 4.0, seeing as Intel may be skipping 4 on desktops entirely?" and Lisas answer is "They're just as bound by dev time as anyone, so that's not likely". This isn't particularly related to consoles.

Agreed. The same argument can be made for the what process node the upcoming consoles will be on. These consoles started design in ~2015 as Cerny stated and it was back then when they committed to whatever node to design for. i.e. 1, choose DUV or EUV 2, spend 2 years designing chip, 3, spend 2 more years testing/verifying/refining said chip.

IF either of the next consoles are on EUV like many here hope then I would contend the decision for that would have been made back in 2015. I really doubt they chose EUV back then as it would've been a huge risk but I won't complain if they somehow pull it off.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
A much more well thought report on that 21st May strategy meeting, from Yahoo Finance:
Sony starts talking PS5 strategy
Some key points








And there is more stuff worth the read,... what do you guys take from this?... improve my computing power measured in Tflops if old 👴


"and by dramatically increasing the graphics rendering speed through the employment of a customized ultra-fast, broadband SSD.”

Interesting quote. SSDs usually don't impact graphics rendering speed at all other than reducing pop-in just by being so much faster than HDDs. But to mention it specifically as an assist to the GPU...SSG idea back on the menu, GPU sees the SSD as an extended framebuffer and uses the VRAM as a cache?

GOD I want Other OS support back if this is the case lol, pro graphics with this feature are 5999, this would put that into a much more accessible price but lock it away behind a closed OS. If they did open up a bit it could be a repeat of the PS3 offering a standout compute value for certain tasks.

 
For the hard of remembering, this is what you said, I assume sarcastically.

Don't try and back track now.

The patent was filed December 2017, not "just".

Both consoles have hardware raytracing, ergo both consoles are not RDNA, but 'Next gen' RDNA

I can see the trouble this causes, as it also makes your TF prediction redundant (assuming you are an alt account for R600) as you only have RDNA to work from, who knows what IPC gains AMD will make/have made for 'Next Gen' RDNA.

the patent was for HYBRID RT, when i say "just patent" (after the HYBRID solution), as for me being an alt of R600 = you stupid

Not quite sure what you're getting at. PCI-e 4.0 was ratified in 2017, but it takes another silicon development cycle to build that into chipsets after that. 5.0 may be adopted faster as 4 was so delayed and some might even skip 4.0 altogether, but 5 being ratified now means it won't likely be ready for holiday 2020 for the consoles.

What Lisa is effectively answering here is the question of "Aren't you worried Intel will leapfrog you with 5.0, even though you're the first out with 4.0, seeing as Intel may be skipping 4 on desktops entirely?" and Lisas answer is "They're just as bound by dev time as anyone, so that's not likely". This isn't particularly related to consoles.


Anyways, 4.0 making it in under the wire for the 9th gen consoles is great news in itself and will likely provide more than enough bandwidth than chips of this calibre will need, giving us a nice boost on things like the SSD.

i'm refering at people expecting EUV for next gen 2020.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
"and by dramatically increasing the graphics rendering speed through the employment of a customized ultra-fast, broadband SSD.”

Interesting quote. SSDs usually don't impact graphics rendering speed at all other than reducing pop-in just by being so much faster than HDDs. But to mention it specifically as an assist to the GPU...SSG idea back on the menu, GPU sees the SSD as an extended framebuffer and uses the VRAM as a cache?

GOD I want Other OS support back if this is the case lol, pro graphics with this feature are 5999, this would put that into a much more accessible price but lock it away behind a closed OS. If they did open up a bit it could be a repeat of the PS3 offering a standout compute value for certain tasks.


I think it is a direct reference to the ultra fast streaming of the Spider-Man demo? He's misspeaking I think?
 

ethomaz

Banned
"and by dramatically increasing the graphics rendering speed through the employment of a customized ultra-fast, broadband SSD.”

Interesting quote. SSDs usually don't impact graphics rendering speed at all other than reducing pop-in just by being so much faster than HDDs. But to mention it specifically as an assist to the GPU...SSG idea back on the menu, GPU sees the SSD as an extended framebuffer and uses the VRAM as a cache?

GOD I want Other OS support back if this is the case lol, pro graphics with this feature are 5999, this would put that into a much more accessible price but lock it away behind a closed OS. If they did open up a bit it could be a repeat of the PS3 offering a standout compute value for certain tasks.

Games on PC are not developed to take advantage from SSDs because if you do that on PC you will left 99% of the system out.
You rendering speed will increase if you can get some data differently from the SSD as fast as possible.

That will be different with PS5 and perhaps Scarlett... we just need to know how different the SSD implementation are in these consoles.
 
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ethomaz

Banned

That is not true anymore... PC APIs today is more close to consoles APIs so the delta is not 2x anymore... it is way lower than that.

If I had to guess then I believe consoles API can give you a boost in performance between 20-30% over PC APIs and that is with first-party exclusives taking advantage of the console API.
Multiplatforms games will perform close enough in similar PC hardware.
 
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DJ12

Member
the patent was for HYBRID RT, when i say "just patent" (after the HYBRID solution), as for me being an alt of R600 = you stupid
Yes hardware and software, patented in 2017, therefore easily the solution deployed in both consoles.

At this point I'm not even sure you know what you are arguing for.

For Clarity, I am saying Hybrid (hardware/software based) RT, is 'next gen' RDNA and will be in both consoles.

Seeing as you have contradicted yourself (this is where the link with R600 entered my mind to be honest), please clarify you position.

No chance for 'next gen' RDNA for either console, or is it just that it points to EUV that's bothering you as we know both consoles have hardware based RT so it's obviously not the link to next gen, as that is what the roadmap clearly states. RNDA shader based, 'next gen' RDNA hardware assisted 'selected lighting'.
 

ANIMAL1975

Member
"and by dramatically increasing the graphics rendering speed through the employment of a customized ultra-fast, broadband SSD.”

Interesting quote. SSDs usually don't impact graphics rendering speed at all other than reducing pop-in just by being so much faster than HDDs. But to mention it specifically as an assist to the GPU...SSG idea back on the menu, GPU sees the SSD as an extended framebuffer and uses the VRAM as a cache?

GOD I want Other OS support back if this is the case lol, pro graphics with this feature are 5999, this would put that into a much more accessible price but lock it away behind a closed OS. If they did open up a bit it could be a repeat of the PS3 offering a standout compute value for certain tasks.

I think it is a direct reference to the ultra fast streaming of the Spider-Man demo? He's misspeaking I think?

Remember that old patent about the use of on-board fast storage? There were references to that http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0097897.html
Gofreak on Reeee made a thread on it.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Remember that old patent about the use of on-board fast storage? There were references to that http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0097897.html
Gofreak on Reeee made a thread on it.

That patent could well be related and does tie in with this quote from Mark Cerny in the Wired article:

Mark Cerny said:
The raw read speed is important, Cerny says, but so are the details of the I/O [input-output] mechanisms and the software stack that we put on top of them.

The patent that Gofreak's thread talks about is the more detailed version of the I/O and software stack Mark mentions?
 
Yes hardware and software, patented in 2017, therefore easily the solution deployed in both consoles.

At this point I'm not even sure you know what you are arguing for.

For Clarity, I am saying Hybrid (hardware/software based) RT, is 'next gen' RDNA and will be in both consoles.

Seeing as you have contradicted yourself (this is where the link with R600 entered my mind to be honest), please clarify you position.

No chance for 'next gen' RDNA for either console, or is it just that it points to EUV that's bothering you as we know both consoles have hardware based RT so it's obviously not the link to next gen, as that is what the roadmap clearly states. RNDA shader based, 'next gen' RDNA hardware assisted 'selected lighting'.

Flawed logic as usual, RDNA 1 dosen't have built in RT cores, AMD doesn't want to go the exact same route as Nvidia, which included dedicated ray tracing cores and would rather use a mix of dedicated and non-dedicated hardware to give devs more flexibility.

next gen console wont have RDNA+, logically next gen leads to RDNA 1 - GCN for an easier Backward comp

ray tracing being adressed at 39:20



not going to answer that r600 and EUV, all i'm saying is consoles cost around 400 -500$ and due 2020 don't expect too much.
 

ANIMAL1975

Member
That patent could well be related and does tie in with this quote from Mark Cerny in the Wired article:



The patent that Gofreak's thread talks about is the more detailed version of the I/O and software stack Mark mentions?
That's what i'm thinking too! But don't ask me why, my knowledge of this and all the other tech stuff we been talking about in next gen threads, comes all from reading you guys 😊
 

R600

Banned

First benchmarks.

- Actually very good performance (bar Wolfenstein in Vulkan), right between 2070 and 2070FE.

- TDP for system similar to 590 which means ~10TF is ballpark for consoles. Still expect ~9TF (duo to 2x more RAM and RT), but better then expected.

- 22K for Navi XT and 20K for Navi 5700 in FS, which would put Gonzalo somewhere between the two (considering slower CPU).

- 9.7TF Navi is 1.16x faster then Vega in TS and 20% faster on avg in games (Vega is 12.6TF GPU).

It all fits ~13TF dev kits being Vega cards, as Navi was not available in January and XT is 20% faster then Vega64.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Like I said both will ignore TF numbers as the plague...

I bet both won’t have Stadia TF numbers, doesn’t matter Navi flops are better, the number is lower. So marketing wise you can’t use it.

Max 10 TF. And that’s stretching it ...

You’re not getting any flops in Stadia cause that shit is not sitting in your house.
 
Like I said both will ignore TF numbers as the plague...

I bet both won’t have Stadia TF numbers, doesn’t matter Navi flops are better, the number is lower. So marketing wise you can’t use it.

Max 10 TF. And that’s stretching it ...
Why would they ignore tflops when the sony ceo litererally mentioned it in his strategy. You dont talk tflops unless your system is offering something much bigger than what your currently offering?. Ps4 has 1.8,pro has 4. Your gonna need something in the double digits. 11tflops rdna would be fucking amazing.
 

R600

Banned
Why would they ignore tflops when the sony ceo litererally mentioned it in his strategy. You dont talk tflops unless your system is offering something much bigger than what your currently offering?. Ps4 has 1.8,pro has 4. Your gonna need something in the double digits. 11tflops rdna would be fucking amazing.
So we have TDP for Navi XT. Full system is slightly below 590, above 470. Perf per watt is great, perf per TFLOP not that much (but that doesnt matter anyway).

To cut story short, Navi XT (with more CUs and lower clocks) is absolute max they can go. Zen2 + 8GB of GDDR6 will take a bit more then CPU + memory part did in Pro and X, therefore since GPU itself is higher as well, excepting 11TF is too much IMO.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
TDP (system) :



Adding for perspective:
xboxone-ps4-powerconsumption-02.jpg



So we'll clearly have a ways to go to get this down, but I'm hoping thermal dissipation is beefy this gen, gameplay power draw doesn't really move the meter enough to matter so long as idle is good.

Granted this is system level with a CPU clocking higher than the PS5s will, probably higher chipset power, etc etc. But Radeon 7850 was a 130W TDP card, which was the closest to the PS4.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
R R600

Nice job with the screencap looks like they pulled the article. That's probably ~220W average gaming consumption for the 5700 XT and ~175W for the 5700 Pro. We'll have to wait for TPU and Guru3d for nuanced measurements for average and peak, but that's essentially their listed TBP. Tuned and power capped 5700 Pro with +8GB GDDR6(16W) and downclocked Zen 2 8c/16t CPU(30-40W) and everything else would still be over 200W, while PS4 Pro was ~155W and X1X ~175W total. :pie_thinking:
 
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DJ12

Member
Flawed logic as usual, RDNA 1 dosen't have built in RT cores, AMD doesn't want to go the exact same route as Nvidia, which included dedicated ray tracing cores and would rather use a mix of dedicated and non-dedicated hardware to give devs more flexibility.

next gen console wont have RDNA+, logically next gen leads to RDNA 1 - GCN for an easier Backward comp

not going to answer that r600 and EUV, all i'm saying is consoles cost around 400 -500$ and due 2020 don't expect too much.
Pure conjecture on your part. Deal with the evidence for once.

Xbox and PS5 both have hardware raytracing, which isn't just shaders as RDNA 1.

No one said anything about AMD hardware being equal to nVidia's RT cores, I'm sure there are many ways to skin the preverbial Raytracing cat.

Also backward compatibility with GCN means didlly squat for the xbox as long as MS stick with direct x, I'm also sure a few Sony patents mean they don't particulally care either.

Literally all MS and Sony have to do is pay for these chips to be made now, design is all done or being finalised now. All in all, based on 100 million in sales your unrealisitic, for a console, $600~700 PC 8 core CPU and Navi GPU combo, cost $100 at most, per chip.

I am not saying Xbox and PS5 will be tflop monsters, they probably won't be clocked high enough for that kind of performance, but they will certainly not be RDNA 1 and your reasons for believe it will just don't add up.

To break it down simply:

RDNA1 = No hardware assisted raytracing
RDNA+ = Hardware assisted raytracing

Xbox and PS5 = Hardware assisted raytracing.

Even if it is not RDNA+, it certainly isn't RDNA 1.

It's unlikely AMD designed 3 different hardware assisted raytracing projects, 1 for MS, one for Sony and one for themselves. It's likely that they are IDENTICAL solutions to the same problem.

Surely you can see the point here? or are you that blinkered in your belief that you are right you cannot accept what I am suggesting is probable.

You could well be right, I accept that, I am just pointing out to you evidence and more dot connecting that is more compeling than your arguments, that indicate you are in fact barking up the wrong tree.

You say don't expect much, but I'm affraid I do, AMD has form for giving console makers first dibs on technology, so expect something that is likely to be released in the summer next year in the PC space to be the minimum tech level in the consoles.
 

vpance

Member
R R600

Nice job with the screencap looks like they pulled the article. That's probably ~220W average gaming consumption for the 5700 XT and ~175W for the 5700 Pro. We'll have to wait for TPU and Guru3d for nuanced measurements for average and peak, but that's essentially their listed TBP. Tuned and power capped 5700 Pro with +8GB GDDR6(16W) and downclocked Zen 2 8c/16t CPU(30-40W) and everything else would still be over 200W, while PS4 Pro was ~155W and X1X ~175W total. :pie_thinking:

EUV will drop power use by 20%. That should keep them just under 200W with a GPU close to 5700XT.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
EUV will drop power use by 20%. That should keep them just under 200W with a GPU close to 5700XT.
That would be ideal. Above all, these consoles ought to be compact, quiet, and power efficient. Xbox One X is a good example of what to shoot for with noise levels and power draw for a compact system.
 
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