Support NeoGAF

[Apollo Helios]

Oh and do not confuse the joke about his games with the target, his tweet is not his game, his tweet is reprehensible and is the target but the game is the only thing about him these jokesters could find about him for intention of attacking him. He just shouldn't have left himself open for an attack in the first place, after that it is fair game, when some xbox fans compared this dev they didn't know about with Sony devs who are excited about PS5, all according to their agenda of discrediting their targeted dev tweets. Well his games are now fair game to be compared against, to make sense into his unsubstantiated claims. If die hard xbox fanatics are trying to discredit dev tweets, there is nothing defendable in this guy's tweet and they are choosing this pathetic hill to die on.

 

[BatSu]

 

[joe_zazen]

that green plastic thing looks so cheap.

 

[Apollo Helios]

That's it boys pack it in, PS5 just lost the war... /s

Fastest AND most powerful... they really are going into this head strong and it makes me wonder if indeed they are actually paying for creation and spread of FUD on forums if they are marketing against PS5 with 'fastest' messaging. Some people claimed GitHub fiasco was bought and paid for, to create FUD and make PS fans root for impossibly high TF figures only to be left feeling bad when official announcement came. The insider debacle could also make sense if MS planned that strategy and now going all in on console war themselves.

Well, PS brand is giant so I don't see them winning this generation either.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

What do you mean "my simulations". I'm not making any simulations, I'm talking about what the dev could do to explain in a video why there's an issue with the SSD/CPU communication on the PS5. I don't know IF there's an issue, I'm just saying that IF he wants to explain it, he MIGHT be thinking of trying to simulate it.

And I am telling you that he can't do that. Because he doesn't know how the hardware (even if its just the ssd's and cpus) of both consoles works in all details.

 

[joe_zazen]

That's it boys pack it in, PS5 just lost the war... /s

Fastest AND most powerful... they really are going into this head strong and it makes me wonder if indeed they are actually paying for creation and spread of FUD on forums if they are marketing against PS5 with 'fastest' messaging. Some people claimed GitHub fiasco was bought and paid for, to create FUD and make PS fans root for impossibly high TF figures only to be left feeling bad when official announcement came. The insider debacle could also make sense if MS planned that strategy and now going all in on console war themselves.

Well, PS brand is giant so I don't see them winning this generation either.

Xbox marketing. no verbs. Too Many. periods.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

This is totally reminiscent of the old Super NES vs Genesis days with the 'Blast Processing' marketing...let's let the games speak for themselves when they arrive.

 

[Evilms]

 

[Shio]

I disagree. He was only talking about CPU and SSD communication, you don't need the other parts for the simulation. We'll agree to disagree.

But the SSD is not just a normal SSD, it is a custom SSD which the custom IO is a part of. To test and compare the SSD fairly the IO chips need to be taken into consideration. Sure we could compare the Xbox 360 and the PS3 and see which is faster to draw a 3d Scene IF we remove the GPU from both (as the Cell can render graphics on its own) and in that case the PS3 would win but is that really a fair comparison as what are the changes that this is a realistic scenario?. We could compare how fast the new consoles run at absolute zero ( i am sure the clocks could go very high) but what is the point as it's not a realistic scenario. Lets compare rendering on the XBox Series X and PS5 without taking advantage of any custom SSD compression, IO or their specific GPU acceleration and see which is fastest, what's the point as it's not a realistic comparison, every dev will be taking advantage of some custom functionality in each console whether they like it or not (as most of the SSD stuff in PS5 is automatic).

 

[Tripolygon]

What a load of bollocks. Comparing a one-man company to the entirety of Sonys 1st party studios. Good job.

I'm sorry but did this guy not compare his knowledge of the PS5 architecture to that of the entirety of Sony? He made bold claims.

Not to shit on the guy but I've seen games with more complicated mechanics and better looking made in dreams by a singular person.

 

[TBiddy]

I'm sorry but did this guy not compare his knowledge of the PS5 architecture to that of the entirety of Sony? He made bold claims.

Not to shit on the guy but I've seen games with more complicated mechanics and better looking made in dreams by a singular person.

He wrote that he didn't understand it and that in his opinion the SSD would be bottlenecked by the CPU. It could be right, it could be wrong, but he didn't compare his knowledge to the entire Sony R&D department, no.

Comparing things made in Dreams with a game developed from scratch doesn't make much sense, btw.

 

[joe_zazen]

Twitterbox.
Most Shit. Whiniest.

 

[ResilientBanana]

That's it boys pack it in, PS5 just lost the war... /s

Fastest AND most powerful... they really are going into this head strong and it makes me wonder if indeed they are actually paying for creation and spread of FUD on forums if they are marketing against PS5 with 'fastest' messaging. Some people claimed GitHub fiasco was bought and paid for, to create FUD and make PS fans root for impossibly high TF figures only to be left feeling bad when official announcement came. The insider debacle could also make sense if MS planned that strategy and now going all in on console war themselves.

Well, PS brand is giant so I don't see them winning this generation either.

They're referring to every single part inside the Xbox, except the SSD. The SSD doesn't make the CPU/GPU fast. So technically it's true.

This is totally reminiscent of the old Super NES vs Genesis days with the 'Blast Processing' marketing...let's let the games speak for themselves when they arrive.

I think the bigger gimmick is having the fastest SSD in the least powerful system. But fanboy's gonna fanboy.

 

[Fortuneelsewhere]

What a load of bollocks. Comparing a one-man company to the entirety of Sonys 1st party studios. Good job.

I think you are a bit confused.. no one is comparing ND to this man company... this guy made a bold tweet about PS5 bottleneck in complex games and didn’t back it up..

And a guy here just made a joke about it... saying tank god complex games are not made by this dinamic voltage guy but instead SWWS..

You get all worked up by it and I find it a bit odd...

 

[thelastword]

Oh and do not confuse the joke about his games with the target, his tweet is not his game, his tweet is reprehensible and is the target but the game is the only thing about him these jokesters could find about him for intention of attacking him. He just shouldn't have left himself open for an attack in the first place, after that it is fair game, when some xbox fans compared this dev they didn't know about with Sony devs who are excited about PS5, all according to their agenda of discrediting their targeted dev tweets. Well his games are now fair game to be compared against, to make sense into his unsubstantiated claims. If die hard xbox fanatics are trying to discredit dev tweets, there is nothing defendable in this guy's tweet and they are choosing this pathetic hill to die on.

The guy is a struggling XBOX indie dev, he advises others not to make his mistakes and in hindsight he would have gone multiplatform, yet he himself has chosen to die on this hill, talking about PS5 architecture when he is ignorant to it, as he declared himself....It's just strange that XBOX fans would use a guy where people can hardly find his game, farless play, who just joined twitter on the 20th as the voice of Series X's technical prowess over PS5.....

Then we say ok, lets see what this guy has done? Maybe he will blow us away and simply has some gems lost in the shuffle an unappreciated shining cherub if you will.....Then we see Final Star, Pirates of First Star and Orphan of the Machine...….Then to compound it, he presents no videos showing the PS5's bottleneck vs Series X on the SSD as he promised...….It becomes crystal clear that the guy said some controversial and wrong things, just to get some air time, his 15 minutes of fame.....He succeeded, he was quoted many times over the internet by desperate XBOX fans, but I don't see these XBOX fans going to buy his gaming gems by droves anyway, they are just using him for his disparaging comment of PS5.....I don't see Phil Spencer, funding him either......Best he can hope for is a gamepass deal atm, yet how many people are pining for Orphan of the Machine as we speak?

I mean, who is RAD, DICE etc.....What does Dynamic Voltage have to say? or the staggering guy......Grannell….

that green plastic thing looks so cheap.

You know I thought it was an LED fan at first, only to realize it's a really cheap piece of green plastic....

 

[FranXico]

Xbox marketing. no verbs. Too Many. periods.

Get The Facts

 

[TBiddy]

Get The Facts

Needs more flute.

 

[joe_zazen]

He wrote that he didn't understand it and that in his opinion the SSD would be bottlenecked by the CPU. It could be right, it could be wrong, but he didn't compare his knowledge to the entire Sony R&D department, no.

Comparing things made in Dreams with a game developed from scratch doesn't make much sense, btw.

it is fucking throwawy tweet from someone who has near zero knowledge of the subject. The problem is appealing to him as an authority to entrench some stupid marketing narrative (fastest. bestest. dont be a loser with shit console, buy SeX) Unless you work for MS, stop being a corporate tool.

The results of the hardware decisions will be written over the next 7+ years. My prediction is most games will play and feel the same. And those that don’t wont affect anyone's life at all. Even if we get a BotW/Mario64/MW/Minecraft/Halflife/etc. because of 2more TF or faster ssd or GAMEPASS!, they still just videogames.

 

[TBiddy]

it is fucking throwawy tweet from someone who has near zero knowledge of the subject. The problem is appealing to him as an authority to entrench some stupid marketing narrative (fastest. bestest. dont be a loser with shit console, buy SeX) Unless you work for MS, stop being a corporate tool.

The results of the hardware decisions will be written over the next 7+ years. My prediction is most games will play and feel the same. And those that don’t wont affect anyone's life at all. Even if we get a BotW/Mario64/MW/Minecraft/Halflife/etc. because of 2more TF or faster ssd or GAMEPASS!, they still just videogames.

I doubt he knows much, if anything, about the structure of the PS5, but still he probably knows more than most of Sonys most ardent defenders here on Gaf. That said, I wouldn't take his word over a developer from Naughy Dog or DICE, or whatever.

I agree with your last paragraph. There won't be much difference in multiplats and 1st party games will look stellar as always.

 

[Tripolygon]

I disagree. He was only talking about CPU and SSD communication, you don't need the other parts for the simulation. We'll agree to disagree.

No you can't make that comparison. You would have to simulate the entire IO on the PS5 architecture. You would have to find an SSD as fast the on in the PS5 with 6 priority lanes and 12 channels. You'd have to simulate the coherency, decompression ASIC etc. It is a fools errand.

He wrote that he didn't understand it and that in his opinion the SSD would be bottlenecked by the CPU. It could be right, it could be wrong, but he didn't compare his knowledge to the entire Sony R&D department, no.

Comparing things made in Dreams with a game developed from scratch doesn't make much sense, btw.

He wrote that he didn't understand it. That should have been the end of the sentence. No we aren't going to play that he could right he could be wrong game. He is entirely wrong, you would have to have a really slow CPU for it to be a bottleneck. Zen 2 architecture is not a slow one, it is one of the best CPU architecture out there on the market.

What do you think dream is? You can create everything from scratch. Every model, texture, mechanic. In fact you can go to each creation and track its origin.

 

[FranXico]

that green plastic thing looks so cheap.

That's not an LED?

 

[TBiddy]

He wrote that he didn't understand it. That should have been the end of the sentence. No we aren't going to play that he could right he could be wrong game. He is entirely wrong, you would have to have a really slow CPU for it to be a bottleneck. Zen 2 architecture is not a slow one, it is one of the best CPU architecture out there on the market.

As in - he didn't understand the choice. That's how I interpret it, at least. What are you basing your claim on?

 

[SatansReverence]

I do wonder if anyone is actually dumb enough to think this is how it actually works

 

[Tripolygon]

As in - he didn't understand the choice. That's how I interpret it, at least. What are you basing your claim on?

Common sense mate?

A modern CPU has terabytes of internal bandwidth between caches. AMD infinity fabric does over 300GB/s, CPU has ~50GB/s off-chip bandwidth. The SSD is 5.5GB/s now ask yourself which is the bottleneck here? This is the reason why we have a separate pool of super fast GDDR6 RAM so the CPU and GPU won't be bottle-necked by the slower storage and that is why the CPU and GPU have internal even faster caches so they won't be bottle-necked by the slower GDDR6 RAM.

 

[thelastword]

That's not an LED?

NO it's a green piece of plastic, I was surprised too, when Leadbetter did the breakdown/assembly...

 

[TBiddy]

Common sense mate?

A modern CPU has terabytes of internal bandwidth between caches. AMD infinity fabric does over 300GB/s, CPU has ~50GB/s off-chip bandwidth. The SSD is 5.5GB/s now ask yourself which is the bottleneck here? This is the reason why we have a seeprate pool of super fast GDDR6 RAM so the CPU and GPU won't be bottle-necked by the slower storage and that is why the CPU and GPU have internal even faster caches so they won't be bottle-necked by the slower GDDR6 RAM.

Sounds reasonable. I'll gladly admit, that I'm not much an hardware expert. I suspect the decompression processors found in both consoles will greatly reduce the load on the CPU as well.

 

[Deeper Underground]

He wrote that he didn't understand it and that in his opinion the SSD would be bottlenecked by the CPU. It could be right, it could be wrong, but he didn't compare his knowledge to the entire Sony R&D department, no.

Comparing things made in Dreams with a game developed from scratch doesn't make much sense, btw.

3 pages later and you are still defending this dev like he’s your own family. Good grief. He doesn’t need you defending his honor.

 

[joe_zazen]

NO it's a green piece of plastic, I was surprised too, when Leadbetter did the breakdown/assembly...

pro photography vs reality

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The cloud doesn't sound like dev friendly:




Games will be pushed to mediocre level if not managed smartly. Balance and timing is the key.

 

[Tripolygon]

Sounds reasonable. I'll gladly admit, that I'm not much an hardware expert. I suspect the decompression processors found in both consoles will greatly reduce the load on the CPU as well.

Yup, on PC you would have to use the CPU to decompress the data while on console they have separate hardware to do that.

 

[INC]

 

[icy121]

Is working on an Xbox exclusive

That will sell exactly two copies.

 

[pasterpl]

Do you guys think that we will have an instant play this gen? I mean, I put in a disc into the console and can play a game straight away? Do you think something like this might work with xCloud or PSNow with installation in the background?

 

[Sinthor]

Well it's a simulation. You simulate the performance of the SSD and CPU virtually, but you'll have to write some code for it. Just like you would simulate the expansion of COVID-19 in the world based on models. You don't need to have COVID-19 to be able to simulate the effect on the world, you just code it together and visualize it.


That happens on both sides unfortunately. People quote people that support their message, and say others are biased if it doesn't support it. Those people should also be ignored

Are you serious? You do realize that to write a "simulation" of something like a PS5, you'd have to be able to simulate the actual HARDWARE and ARCHITECTURE in use? You'd have to have a VERY strong understanding of that hardware, to then create a simulator for it just so you can make a video that shows how bad it sucks. That's so work intensive and just plain would be a dumb thing to do. Far easier to get an actual dev kit and then do your thing. Sheesh. I don't get how people are taking one tweet from a single, unknown dev and trying to expand what he wrote into Shakespeare or something!?

The guy is clearly talking out of his ass and trying to help the buzz and marketing of his own game. Big deal!

 

[Sinthor]

He was only talking about the CPU and SSD, and their interactions. So only focussing on that should be enough.


1. It's more to say that even way more complex issues can be simulated, so the CPU/SSD interaction is definitely possible to be simulated.
2. He was only talking about SSD/CPU interaction, not about how games would use the complete system.
3. RDNA2 is GPU, not CPU, so nothing to do with his comment about the communication of SSD/CPU
4. I'm not defending the dev, just saying how he might want to show the world what he is claiming
5. See 4.
6. Depends on what he's actually trying to show. He talked about 1 aspect specifically, so you don't need to simulate everything perfectly.
7. I agree

Wow. Must be just like in the real world with this Covid-19 thing. It's just a simple, single-strand RNA virus. Just simulate it and find the cure! Duh! What the hell are all these virologists and other scientist DOING with their time when they could just simulate the solution, right? LOL!

Seriously, people. Just......wow.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

that green plastic thing looks so cheap.

That's a petty, low blow.

 

[Sinthor]

I do wonder if anyone is actually dumb enough to think this is how it actually works

Short answer- yes, yes, they are dumb enough. I mean, we have people who believe you can just simply "simulate" a piece of complex hardware in your spare time and run real world relevant testing on it to explain to super nerd why their preferred hunk of plastic and silicon is crap. So why not this?

 

[PaintTinJr]

On nvidia cards its the opposite.

Wider and slower gives higher performance in RT (and across the board) with 2080 Ti as the lowest clocked 20xx series card.

RTX 2080 TI FE:
Base Clock 1350 MHz
Boost Clock 1545 MHz

Shading Units 4352
TMUs 272
ROPs 88
SM Count 68

RTX 2080 FE:
Base Clock 1515 MHz
Boost Clock 1710 MHz

Shading Units 2944
TMUs 184
ROPs 64
SM Count 46

Rumored next gen render configuration:

Xbox Series X:
Shading Units 3328
TMUs 208
ROPs 80
Compute Units 52

PS5:
Shading Units 2304
TMUs 144
ROPs 64
Compute Units 36

That is interesting to know, but not surprising to me given that we aren’t talking about Full RT games (on RTX) built from the ground up for RT, are we? I'm presuming you are talking more about faux-RT like DF analysed a few months back, where final image assembly is a deferred pass, yes? In faux-RT division of critical performance workloads like zbuffering (forward render of 1st intersection) is rasterized and so would still work for a wider CU count. If that isn’t the case, then I pressume they are taking a high redundancy in vram usage to split the work – which neither the ps5 or XsX have the excess to waste. Target resolution also matters, so a gain at 4K might not be present with a more complex RT workload at 1080p.

The 20xx series is a halfway house for rasterization and RT so it will be interesting to see what nvidia do on the 30xx or 40xx series. But it isn’t beyond the realms of possibility that AMD have differing solutions for RT, or Sony’s solution – informed by RT on +3GHz SPUs By IBM and Sony using lots of RT for Sony Pictures over multiple decades – is different to AMD/Nvidia/Xbox sX solution.

 

[INC]

Wish I'd held off for the 3000 series, my 2080 super gonna be redundant really quick

 

[Dory16]

That's it boys pack it in, PS5 just lost the war... /s

Fastest AND most powerful... they really are going into this head strong and it makes me wonder if indeed they are actually paying for creation and spread of FUD on forums if they are marketing against PS5 with 'fastest' messaging. Some people claimed GitHub fiasco was bought and paid for, to create FUD and make PS fans root for impossibly high TF figures only to be left feeling bad when official announcement came. The insider debacle could also make sense if MS planned that strategy and now going all in on console war themselves.

Well, PS brand is giant so I don't see them winning this generation either.

I think you're going too easy for Microsoft. They probably paid for the COVID-19 as well, so people could stay at home to read the FUD on forums that they've also paid for.

 

[Nickolaidas]

I do wonder if anyone is actually dumb enough to think this is how it actually works

... IT ISN'T?!?!

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Wow. Must be just like in the real world with this Covid-19 thing. It's just a simple, single-strand RNA virus. Just simulate it and find the cure! Duh! What the hell are all these virologists and other scientist DOING with their time when they could just simulate the solution, right? LOL!

Seriously, people. Just......wow.

Lol, why are you reading stuff that I didn't say. I said the spread of the virus, not finding the solution

 

[Sinthor]

Lol, why are you reading stuff that I didn't say. I said the spread of the virus, not finding the solution

Umm..... same thing. If it was so easy to do, what I said about the virus and modeling it and the solution would be just the same as being able to simply "simulate" a whole PS5 with all of it's system (Or the new Xbox for that matter) and doing comparative analysis. The point being, to simulate something, you have to thoroughly understand it. THOROUGHLY. Make more sense now? In other words, it's a prohibitive process. There's no way this dev, without even access to the hardware, can simulate ANYTHING related to the PS5. No. Way.

Things just don't work like that. This is the really-real world. Would be FAR simpler and less time intensive as well for someone to just GET a PS5 dev kit. Then they can talk all the shit and post all the videos about it that they want. Assuming they don't break an NDA, that is.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Umm..... same thing. If it was so easy to do, what I said about the virus and modeling it and the solution would be just the same as being able to simply "simulate" a whole PS5 with all of it's system (Or the new Xbox for that matter) and doing comparative analysis. The point being, to simulate something, you have to thoroughly understand it. THOROUGHLY. Make more sense now? In other words, it's a prohibitive process. There's no way this dev, without even access to the hardware, can simulate ANYTHING related to the PS5. No. Way.

Things just don't work like that. This is the really-real world. Would be FAR simpler and less time intensive as well for someone to just GET a PS5 dev kit. Then they can talk all the shit and post all the videos about it that they want. Assuming they don't break an NDA, that is.

Lol, dude, calm down Do you want to read my first post on this again? I don't really care. I just said that he might be interested in simulating it. And he was talking about 1 specific thing so I don't think you would need to understand the whole system, but like I said I don't care. That's for that dev to decide.

You don't need the devkit to proof that there's a mismatch between CPU and SSD speeds. Maybe he does it by simulation? We'll see. He might not show anything, but we shouldn't care too much about random devs defending or attacking other systems on twitter. Just wait for the games.

 

[Sinthor]

Lol, dude, calm down Do you want to read my first post on this again? I don't really care. I just said that he might be interested in simulating it. And he was talking about 1 specific thing so I don't think you would need to understand the whole system, but like I said I don't care. That's for that dev to decide.

No, you're blithely talking about simulations as if 'all you have to do is simulate X' in your attempt to try and explain away why this guy MIGHT be correct at all. But I'm not upset, just trying to educate people (not even necessarily you) on what it takes to simulate hardware or other real world things (like a virus). Because a LOT of people (you'd be surprised how many) seem to think it's like on Star Trek where you can pretty much just speak to a computer and tell it to simulate some exploding supernova or something and it will give you the answers!

This guy is clearly making cockamamie claims he can't back up and has no knowledge of. And again, he can't simulate ANYTHING without fully understanding the hardware, not even 'just an SSD.' And he's already admitted he doesn't understand the hardware at all.

Hasta!

 

[prinz_valium]

I wonder what the Series X pro model is going to be called.

X Series XXX?

There won't be any Pro Model for the Series X
That console is already super powerful and can't be made much stronger within 3 years.
This console cycle there is no midgen refresh for Microsoft.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

I think the bigger gimmick is having the fastest SSD in the least powerful system. But fanboy's gonna fanboy.

Geez, settle down, I am not attacking your precious Microsoft...if anything you are the one coming across as a fanboy. There is a lot more to games than just TF performance and there is a lot more to games that SSD I/O performance, both systems have their ups and downs and for someone to attack one side or the other at this point is pretty idiotic...each system will be able to do something slightly better than the other, but I want to see what each performance boost brings to this next generation, thus letting the games speak for themselves, on both sides.

 

[ethomaz]

Was this guy not supposed to provide a video proving the PS5 CPU being the bottleneck or something?

Where is the video? He also just joined in March 2020. Is working on an Xbox exclusive and promotes his company on his twitter page.
Does he even have a PS5 devkit?

Genuine question.

He doesn’t have PS5 devkit... he just lied.

 

[jackets with pockets]

r/ps5 continues to impress.

 

[Nickolaidas]

r/ps5 continues to impress.

I'm PROUD for joining that subreddit!