• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gamerguy84

Member
Do workgroup processors perform anything different in RSNA 2?

since they are just 2 CU grouped together I wondered if they did anything different or do they work the same way?
 

LordOfChaos

Member
I dint quite understand your math.
XB1 was 1.3, then 1.4 tflops vs Sony's 1.84 tflops. 40%
XB1X is 6 flops vs PS4s 4.2 tflops. 40%
XSX 12.1 tflops vs. 10.2 tflops. 18%?

Is that right? Seems off.

How does a .4 tflop difference result in a 900p to 1080p disparity but a 1.9 tflop difference will hardly be noticeable?

Pus we still don't know what each machine is packing still. How can you make claims like this when there are still unknowns for each console?

I'm confused, you worked out the percentages yourself, what would seem off about them? That's how relative differences work.

Think about this, the differnce between a Geforce 8300 (48Gflops) and an 8800GTX (345.6 GFLOPS) is ~300Gflops.
The difference between a 2080 (10Tflops) and a 2080TI (13) is 3000Gflops.

Would you say the first two are closer tiers of products? No, because time moves on and metrics change, and the percentage difference between them rather than the absolute value is what matters, it should be obvious to anyone that despite the absolute numbers, the 2080 and 2080TI are closer than the 8300 and 8800.
 
Last edited:

Radical_3d

Member
Man these two systems will be so neck and neck that it'll come down to certain scenarios with both having their respective advantages. Everyone should be pretty darn happy. I'd never thought we'd get consoles like this. As someone that owns every system it's raining bitches. 😍😍😍
Yeah. I’m particularly happy since I expected Sony to give me a 9TF machine with a SATA SSD.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
It has to be at the very least...has to be.

They'd be insane to launch $1 higher than the PS5.

They really should, their cheap Xbox One X and Xbox One S bundles and deals didn't help out much. From MS and Sony official amazon pages:

PS4 Slim with no games: $320

148343.jpg


PS4 Pro with no games: $349

148344.jpg


Xbox One SAD with 3 games preinstalled: $218

148345.jpg


Xbox One S with games:
Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order bundle: $280
The Division 2 bundle: $289
5x sequels of Gears: $285

148346.jpg


Xbox One X with games:
Star Wards Jedi: Fallen Order bundle: $330
5x sequels of Gears + special controller and console skin: $450

148347.jpg


It's still can't compete. Why would it compete on next gen then?
 
Last edited:

DaGwaphics

Member
As stated by AMD here in the video, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do true 3D audio using ONLY CPU, and that's for ONLY 32 sources, not hundreds or 5,000:

Who would have thought that AMD believes their solution is the best, I'm shocked. Steam Audio claims to have no issues with "100s or even 1,000s of objects" on a single CPU core.
 
Last edited:

B_Boss

Member
I basically use a 7.1 system built from Bowers & Wilkins speakers. Is what I use for entertainment stuff, like TV, console... Then, when I go for headphones( I don't use headset, don't need the mic), I actually have that 1099$ Marantz Amp :messenger_tears_of_joy: with either Sennheiser HD 660 S or AKG K-872 (I love both, and they have different character, so I tend to switch between them depending on the source).

It's expensive stuff, but it's so worth it.

I’m sure you’re very well aware but at least if you wanted to, you could purchase a detachable mic 🍻. I have a beloved pair of audio-technica cans and the mod mic. Perfection.
I still think sony will undercut them by 50$

I do wonder if this is somewhat necessarily true given how more powerful the Series X is (in its notable ways) over the PS5...if it almost must be more expensive, etc.
 

MistBreeze

Member
I appreciate all the talks about technical specification for both consoles but I think people think about other practical things when buying a console
games u can play only in that console ( exclusives ) sell consoles

I like how sony and Nintendo thinks about consoles they make new experience ui, exclusive games from the beginning utilizing the power of new console
what microsoft makes offering all games in series x down to xbone will hinder the series x for 2 years ( adding Lockhart to the equation is a recipe for disaster ) while in ps5 u will play with next gen only ps5 games from the begenning

and there game pass subscription model with pay once play all filling the service with mostly small AA games not my cup of tea

add the ecosystem in the equation friends community will factor in buyer decision

and people will not dump there games catalogue they bought in ps4 easily
 
Last edited:

icy121

Member
Paging Bo_Hazem Bo_Hazem , thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best , SonGoku SonGoku

When Cerny talked about audio, he mentioned the SPUs in the PS3 were a "beast" at audio rendering and that "simple, pipeline algorithms could really take advantage of asynchronous DMA."

I know very little about audio - other than if it sounds good or not - and was wondering what about the SPU's in the PS3 made it a beast at rendering audio as opposed to the PS4? Is it just as Cerny says, "simple, pipeline algorithms?" Additionally, Cerny mentioned that they modified an AMD CU to work more like an SPU, given the custom nature behind this, do you think developers will make take advantage of this? Also, are there any examples that come to mind? I know Cerny brought up rain droplets in his presentation, are there any others that stand out? Maybe wind?



Also, what is this thing?

aeaNrEY.png
 

Redlight

Member
This user has been removed from thread. Condescending troll bait has been noted. Wether right or wrong, your intent is not that of civil discourse.
I think it's worth popping into this thread from time to time to remind everyone that the published specs of the two machines show, clearly, that the Series X is a more powerful system than the PS5 and is therefore likely to be the best performed machine for third-party games.

Given the above, I note that some people have completely lost interest in the Teraflops metric, even though it's the best method we have of measuring relative capability, and now judge hardware solely on SSD speeds and audio 'magic'. :)

The human mind is an amazing thing.

Sorry to interrupt the festival of delusion, please resume normal programming...
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Paging Bo_Hazem Bo_Hazem , thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best , SonGoku SonGoku

When Cerny talked about audio, he mentioned the SPUs in the PS3 were a "beast" at audio rendering and that "simple, pipeline algorithms could really take advantage of asynchronous DMA."

I know very little about audio - other than if it sounds good or not - and was wondering what about the SPU's in the PS3 made it a beast at rendering audio as opposed to the PS4? Is it just as Cerny says, "simple, pipeline algorithms?" Additionally, Cerny mentioned that they modified an AMD CU to work more like an SPU, given the custom nature behind this, do you think developers will make take advantage of this? Also, are there any examples that come to mind? I know Cerny brought up rain droplets in his presentation, are there any others that stand out? Maybe wind?



Also, what is this thing?

aeaNrEY.png


The PS3 SPU concept was a promising project that could've shaped the future of gaming and PC in general, that I can tell. I've watch the Road to PS4 by Mark Cerny and you can see how complicated it was. I personally don't understand it well. That device/room is where you measure your individual HRTF to tailor audio specifically for you:


There are many examples on youtube of so-called 8D audio or 3D audio that I would give you example of. Feeling every droplet is probably much more amazing than this intriguing video/soundtrack




There is a very great one that's 11 years old of the virtual barbershop:




It's very old but still very impressive. DICE is utilizing it now as the first 3rd party devs to use it for a starter, all first party games should. All other 3rd party don't want to be left out of the party, so expect the likes of Activision, Ubisoft, etc to do the same. It can as well handle other work to assist the GPU/CPU as well as mentioned by Mark Cerny. Think of it as a turbocharger, with the I/O being another one, makes it twin-turbocharged :messenger_sunglasses: It's GPU-based, so it will deliver true 3D Audio, not half-baked solution like the Amazon, Stadia competitors.
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I think it's worth popping into this thread from time to time to remind everyone that the published specs of the two machines show, clearly, that the Series X is a more powerful system than the PS5 and is therefore likely to be the best performed machine for third-party games.

Given the above, I note that some people have completely lost interest in the Teraflops metric, even though it's the best method we have of measuring relative capability, and now judge hardware solely on SSD speeds and audio 'magic'. :)

The human mind is an amazing thing.

Sorry to interrupt the festival of delusion, please resume normal programming...

tenor.gif
 
I think it's worth popping into this thread from time to time to remind everyone that the published specs of the two machines show, clearly, that the Series X is a more powerful system than the PS5 and is therefore likely to be the best performed machine for third-party games.

Given the above, I note that some people have completely lost interest in the Teraflops metric, even though it's the best method we have of measuring relative capability, and now judge hardware solely on SSD speeds and audio 'magic'. :)

The human mind is an amazing thing.

Sorry to interrupt the festival of delusion, please resume normal programming...

I think benchmarks are the best method for discerning real-world capabilities, not theoretical peaks, if that wasn't the case we wouldn't have them. Series X should have higher-res output and frames on multiplat games, while PS5 will have the edge with LOD/texture streaming. Just my guess at this stage.
 

SonGoku

Member
Paging Bo_Hazem Bo_Hazem , thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best , SonGoku SonGoku

When Cerny talked about audio, he mentioned the SPUs in the PS3 were a "beast" at audio rendering and that "simple, pipeline algorithms could really take advantage of asynchronous DMA."

I know very little about audio - other than if it sounds good or not - and was wondering what about the SPU's in the PS3 made it a beast at rendering audio as opposed to the PS4? Is it just as Cerny says, "simple, pipeline algorithms?" Additionally, Cerny mentioned that they modified an AMD CU to work more like an SPU, given the custom nature behind this, do you think developers will make take advantage of this? Also, are there any examples that come to mind? I know Cerny brought up rain droplets in his presentation, are there any others that stand out? Maybe wind?



Also, what is this thing?

aeaNrEY.png

These quotes from eurogamer interview should provide some insight as to what makes SPUs great at audio compared to GPU & CPU
In general, the scale of the task in dealing with game audio is already extraordinary - not least because audio is processed at 48000Hz with 256 samples, meaning there are 187.5 audio 'ticks' per second - meaning new audio needs to be delivered every 5.3ms. Bear that in mind when considering the weight of the data Sony's processor works through per tick.
"GPUs process hundreds or even thousands of wavefronts; the Tempest engine supports two," explains Mark Cerny. "One wavefront is for the 3D audio and other system functionality, and one is for the game.
GPU is based on the principle of parallelism - the idea of running many tasks (or waves) simultaneously. The Tempest engine is much more serial-like in nature, meaning that there's no need for attached memory caches. "When using the Tempest engine, we DMA in the data, we process it, and we DMA it back out again; this is exactly what happens on the SPUs on PlayStation 3," Cerny adds. "It's a very different model from what the GPU does; the GPU has caches, which are wonderful in some ways but also can result in stalling when it is waiting for the cache line to get filled. GPUs also have stalls for other reasons, there are many stages in a GPU pipeline and each stage needs to supply the next. As a result, with the GPU if you're getting 40 per cent VALU utilisation, you're doing pretty damn well. By contrast, with the Tempest engine and its asynchronous DMA model, the target is to achieve 100 percent VALU utilisation in key pieces of code."

That thing is used to make a HRTF which in layman terms its a 3D Audio profile so that its more effective
 
Last edited:

Foxbat

Banned
I think it's worth popping into this thread from time to time to remind everyone that the published specs of the two machines show, clearly, that the Series X is a more powerful system than the PS5 and is therefore likely to be the best performed machine for third-party games.

Given the above, I note that some people have completely lost interest in the Teraflops metric, even though it's the best method we have of measuring relative capability, and now judge hardware solely on SSD speeds and audio 'magic'. :)

The human mind is an amazing thing.

Sorry to interrupt the festival of delusion, please resume normal programming...

Man, ain't that the truth.

While I'm sure the PS5 will be a fine console with fine games, the more I hear and see about it... The less interested I am in it. When the biggest new feature is its SSD, but falls flat everywhere else compared to the competition, then it makes it easy to decide which console to go with as my main. I'll pick up a PS5 sometime later in the gen to play some of its exclusives, but I like to let those pile up for a couple of years first.
 

James Sawyer Ford

Gold Member
I think benchmarks are the best method for discerning real-world capabilities, not theoretical peaks, if that wasn't the case we wouldn't have them. Series X should have higher-res output and frames on multiplat games, while PS5 will have the edge with LOD/texture streaming. Just my guess at this stage.

what will you notice more?

120% better textures or 15% resolution?
 

kareemna

Member
re audio, SPUs were great at being absolute number crunchers, offloading the RSX, etc. Cell and blu-ray + HDD saved the PS3 tbh. Crazy Ken. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

It is actually the opposite, as the RSX was later developed for the console. Ken was going to fully rely on CELL to render graphics (!). They later approached Nvidia for a quick solution, they were not done developing Tesla architecture back then so they went with G70 architecture based around Geforce 7800. Its main issue was a unified shader pipeline as this was implemented on Tesla.

Regarding audio it is really simple, Cerny was just drawing similarities between a CU and an SPE on the CELL. As the latter was able to process high resolution lossless audio on the fly, the tempest is based on a CU and is able to do the same if not beyond what an SPE is capable of doing regarding audio processing.
 
Last edited:

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think it's worth popping into this thread from time to time to remind everyone that the published specs of the two machines show, clearly, that the Series X is a more powerful system
People know it, it is annoying as it seems you are either still trying to gloat or are upset people are not all renouncing their PS5 planned purchases, people get it’s got a higher FLOPS rating and they are very close still (within about 15% of each other realistically), and they are still excited for their own reasons.

The two consoles are relatively close in performance and have their pros and cons: PS fans are excited about their unique HW features as the Sony’s first party teams are known to push the HW and many of those devs have had a core group of engineers if not a full team on next generation games for a while.
 
Last edited:

FeiRR

Banned
Bro I remember playing Medal of Honor and damn tht audio was sooooo good. Dice are wizards with audio in their fps military games so I cant wait!!
I remember playing Bad Company 2 based almost entirely on audio (squad deathmatch on hardcore). It was amazing. I want that audio tech back. It's much better in BFV than it was in BF3/4 but still nowhere close. I really hope dedicated sound hw in both consoles is going to create a new standard for audio in games.
That is the best (worst?) part of it all; either Cell was just that efficient (if so, why not just use a Cell-based GPU like they intended for PS3?), or AMD fucked up in making RDNA2 efficient in any real means (if so, why use AMD in the first place?). It's a baseless speculation that's already been debunked by people on the hardware team essentially.
Cell was very efficient if you knew how to make it work. The problem is, almost every programmer in gamedev back then when PS3 was released had a single-thread workflow scheme. My friend ported his engine from PC to PS3 and got 2-3 FPS. It took him two months (and help from others) and almost a mental breakdown to make it work on 6 SPUs. He explained how the very concept of making things work was different, from the moment you were planning your code. Nowadays more and more people know how to utilise parallel workflows. This is exactly why Cerny always stresses the cooperation with devs. They really don't want the PS3 situation to happen again. That's why they released the Road video: to inform devs locked in self-isolation around the world about their new concepts. The fanboy pandering in just a by-product and will have no impact on Sony's strategy once they show us what PS5 is capable of.

As do the majority of tech devices that handle 3D audio. GPU audio is feature offered by most GPUs (to simplify audio pass-through), but not a requirement.
Most consumer devices have fake 3D audio. This means, after the data is rendered by the engine, a dedicated chip creates a 3D audio scene from that data. What we're hoping for next gen is real 3D audio, with waves cast around the scene. It's great that both consoles will be capable of it because PCs have regressed greatly in that domain.

I think it's worth popping into this thread from time to time to remind everyone that the published specs of the two machines show, clearly, that the Series X is a more powerful system than the PS5 and is therefore likely to be the best performed machine for third-party games.
I thought I had an adblock switched on for all *.microsoft.com domains...
 

nosseman

Member
What does that mean? Do you understand it though?

PS5: We have 3D Audio (Hardware-GPU-based, hundreds calculated)
XSX: We have 3D Audio (software, half-baked)
PS5: We can stream directly from SSD.
XSX: We can stream directly from SSD (Well, 11sec loading screen)

This is the same kind of speculations that put RDNA1 and "NO HARDWARE RAYTRACING IN PS5" based on the github leak.

PS5 has dedicated audio hardware and can stream from SSD very fast.

Xbox Series X has dedicated audio hardware and can stream from SSD very fast.
 

FranXico

Member
Yeah - that is the problem. People ran wild with the speculations and then when many speculations fell flat on its face people assumed the github leak was false but in reality it was the speculations that was wrong.
I've repeatedly stated that the GitHub leak consisted of tests data for which we had no context. Some people used the incompleteness of the info present there and filled in the gaps for their own agenda.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
People know it, it is annoying as it seems you are either still trying to gloat or are upset people are not all renouncing their PS5 planned purchases, people get it’s got a higher FLOPS rating and they are very close still (witching 15% of each other realistically), and they are still excited for their own reasons.

The two consoles are relatively close in performance and have their pros and cons: PS fans are excited about their unique HW features as the Sony’s first party teams are known to push the HW and many of them have had a code group of engineers if not a full team on next generation games for a while.

He knows better than a Microsoft exec Bill Stillwell:

'I personally think we're going to have a better console. I'm not worried about the power narrative.'


Like others know better about massive, unplanned AAA games than Matt Booty, head of Xbox Studios.
 
Last edited:

pasterpl

Member
What does that mean? Do you understand it though?


PS5: We have 3D Audio (Hardware-GPU-based, hundreds calculated)
XSX: We have 3D Audio (software, half-baked)
PS5: We can stream directly from SSD.
XSX: We can stream directly from SSD (Well, 11sec loading screen)

It is getting sad with you! Seariously.

PS5: We have 3D Audio (Hardware-GPU-based, hundreds calculated) - Based on what Cerny said they are still working on making this work. So Sony's solution is still "half-baked".

XSX: We have 3D Audio (software, half-baked) - Wrong. You are knowingly spreading lies. Question why XSX 3D audio is "half-baked"

Developers will be able to easily leverage Project Acoustics with Xbox Series X through the addition of a new custom audio hardware block.
Galante: “It’s extremely exciting. We’re going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.”


PS5: We can stream directly from SSD.
XSX: We can stream directly from SSD (Well, 11sec loading screen) - WTF? What 11 Seconds? Are you referring to State Of Decay loading? That demo has nothing to do with streaming.

You deserve this to be your avatar, you are spreading FUD and lies, I just dont understand why? Troll?

hqdefault.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom