rnlval
Member
EPIC has claimed RTX 2070 Super (entry-level TU104) running the same UE5 demo has "pretty good performance".
https://www.pcgamer.com/unreal-engine-5-tech-demo/
Epic Games chief technical officer Kim Libreri.
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EPIC has claimed RTX 2070 Super (entry-level TU104) running the same UE5 demo has "pretty good performance".
https://www.pcgamer.com/unreal-engine-5-tech-demo/
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
On the subject of getting our hands on Lumen in the Land of Nanite as part of the UE5 SDK at the back end of 2021, it's still likely not going to tell us much if the developers are saying it's still early technology and the target is this visual quality at 60 FPS. If they can manage that over the next 18 months or so, it won't be comparable unless it can be run on a released PS5 again somehow?
Metroiddarks
Member
Also is because they actually think is a good strategy (pc/ console warrior whatever) make everything using brute force, yes you can do it but that is not point, for which reason you will
present a technology which can be used in a console and then says also in PC well not all you know only those will more than 8GB of VRAM and depending of multiples factors even could
use 32GB of ram.
That is which doesn't make sounds logical with the business of Epic that is why they just just need more time to optimized and search an equilibrium a don't just say
"you can run it if use this huge quantity of ram but not worry you can use your slow SSD".
Is obvious the main problem is not because a PC doesn't has more GPU power is obvious it does, the things is you cannot juste make comparison of hardware under
NDA doesn't matter if you do against an already release hardware even worst if you brute force the demo will sound ridiculous some specs and will worst in the end.
Moses85
Member
Both companies don’t need marketing anymore. Epic has the Epic Store which prints money and Sony, is Sony...
Just kidding
Metroiddarks
Member
We I never saw lumen in the last release but I am sure I am wrong, you should be the only person I read which knows everything
of the Unreal tech demo without the Tech talk of the engine and even better the only one which access to lumen...
xPikYx
Member
The good and bad of human beings is that they do mistakes. This is clearly the case, what we got to understand is what they have mistaken about. If the mistake is simply a wrong logo or the guy who did that misinterpreted the nda and put that logo accidentally and obviously now once the company realized the error is trying to cover that up by denying the shit out of it.
I really believe they know about gt7 and the guy just did a big silly mistake because the post is pretty clear, those are all upcoming racing games in 2020
Metroiddarks
Member
I do it even in my language, so it's not my English ... I wish it was hahaha
Basically happens when I don't pay attention when I write
Metroiddarks
Member
That depends if one of the architect make the hardware as you suggest your also will be happy, then you would presume that part of hardware is in part due to you.
Metroiddarks
Member
I am expecting in some moment the motherboard will have some changes in order to make use this "era" of high bandwidth in general. So in 4 years again the only PC gamers
will be furious saying than the consoles stop the progress of graphics, the life cycle I think.
Flight Simulator looks gorgeous but about the Elder Scrolls if they continue with that old engine ... well will hurt
(Fallout 76)
FeiRR
Banned
Yet there are no PC games, except for Star Citizen, which look like they're impossible on console.
schaft0620
Member
What was it? Its gone.
Barakov
Gold Member
It was a tweet talking about Gran Turismo 7.
Sinthor
Gold Member
Oh my goodness. People are not listening. Tim Sweeney said the UE5 engine will run on most platforms. That's their business after all, making an engine that can work on everything from a phone to a PC. But he also said that THIS particular demo. THIS ONE, was made specifically for the PS5 and took advantage of it's strengths, particularly the super fast I/O that he said CANNOT be duplicated, even on the PC at this time. Would that particular demo run on other platforms? If one has the code and the UE5 engine on their platform, SURE. Will there be differences? YES. This is simple logic folk. I don't know why some are so threatened by the I/O and SSD speed issues that mean that particular demo at that particular quality can't be run elsewhere, at least right now (according to Tim Sweeney). Big deal! I'm sure they could have made a demo that took advantage of a PC being able to have 128GB of RAM or something else to show off whatever platform they chose. This demo had been meant to be playable on PS5 at GDC earlier this year. THAT IS ALL.
Metroiddarks
Member
Yes I am agree the problem of PC gaming is other not graphics.... is money, usually a pc gamer behave similar
then those will buy and high end smartphone, they are agree in spent $1000 USD but not in spent $5 USD in an app for buy it.
The PC gamer usually spent more money in its PC than the normal price of a console, but they are not used to buy game in release for
the complete price because 'I will buy it until Summer sale or once the price is around 20 dollar or less'.
xacto
Member
They lost their minds anyway, denial is a terrible tool to align dreams with reality.
Sinthor
Gold Member
I gotta say, the new flight simulator looks INSANE. Are the demos or videos shown so far, running on XSX? I can't recall it. Bottom line....wow. I read something about the insane amount of data being used for the visuals as well. Quite the technical feat!
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
I guess they'd be taken from PC. I've just checked now and it says Xbox One and Windows, but I'd be expecting a Series X announcement, maybe during a Series X first-party event. If it's coming to XSX that's a console sold for me.
FeiRR
Banned
It's PC but there's no problem with porting it to XSX because all that insane detail is streamed online from servers. With CPU fast enough to handle simulations, it should be perfectly doable on XSX. The thing is, it's a flying sim. You won't enjoy such a game unless you actually know how to fly a plane, which is many hours of learning. It's a small but very profitable market because spending $2-3k on hardware is still way cheaper than flying lessons and it takes away the danger of experimentation.
Star Citizen is impossible on curentGen consoles, for NexT gen will not be a problem. In 2-3 years will be an outdated game.
Metroiddarks
Member
I will buy XSX for Halo Infinite .... please dont suck again
Metroiddarks
Member
Is more for the promise of only be a PC game during kickstarter time, I think this game will suffer bad publicity if they do that.
Sinthor
Gold Member
Yeah, I know FS isn't really a "game" per se in that it has a MUCH steeper learning curve due to its very realism. Still just looks AMAZING though. That's right, I remember reading about that vast amount of data being cloud resident due to the size. I wouldn't imagine there'd be any problem getting that on the XSX. Consoles have gone more towards the PC standard at least with the CPU and GPU's. And there's definitely enough power in the XSX to run it since it seems comparable or better than mid-high to high end gaming rigs. I am curious how FS would transfer to the console controller model. You know, I wish they'd make the XSX and PS5 so you could use a keyboard and mouse again like you could with the PS3. That would let them put things like Flight Simulator on the console and really not have to worry much about making it work with the traditional controller. Plus I think it would be a nice option for us gamers. Oh well. Maybe someday!
FeiRR
Banned
If you plan to fly sims, you should buy dedicated controllers. KB+M isn't going to help you. Also it has nothing to do with hardware. You can play COD with KB+M on PS4 right now (which breaks the game for joypad users but that's stupid dev choices).
Sinthor
Gold Member
Wow, really? I thought the keyboard support went out the window with the PS3. Cool! Yeah, I guess you need the specific controllers for a flight sim like that one. Well, still should be quite the cool package for PC and XSX owners! It definitely makes a great impression from what I've seen of it!
Shmunter
Member
No danger? Pfft, forget it
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
I learned all I need to know from Stunt Island. I'm ready.
Leyasu
Banned
What, are people supposed to believe that Epic games don’t have access to the beefiest Gaming PCs money can buy?? Is he trying to say that they haven’t done their own benchmarks?? Fucking hell.
I have been on the fence with this, taking a wait and see approach.. I also don’t like calling people liars either. But he is clearly hiding something. Yes I am aware that he said that PCs need to catch up in regards to the SSD I/O etc, but he would already know ffs.
Arguments to the contrary appear nothing more than naive after that tweet imo
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Physiognomonics
Member
CU occupancy in many PS4 / XB1 games is about 40%. There is still an ample room for manoeuvre for higher CU occupancy without reaching PS5 power limit.
100% will never happen in games. Ever. It's more like getting closer to 50% or 60%.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
That's one interpretation, and a very strong and incredulous one at that. But it's also asking him to predict the future, not just of the PC hardware availability in late 2021, but of UE5 performance in late 2021, which will be when this is actually being made available to the public after hopefully reaching their 60 FPS target. This isn't a finished product or using mature technology. This is something that was made for GDC and probably programmed in such a way as to rely on PS5 IO and SDK as it currently stands.
It's too early to say because it's too early to really say, not because nobody has a clue how much data it's using and what kind of IO latency is involved.
A game development company has about as much interest in a top 99.99% PC running some shredding RAID NVMe setup as they do some data centre hardware. Neither are really relevant to making games for the PC market, where instead you design for an average PC and then give scaling options for enthusiast GPUs to allow the same fundamental game at higher resolutions or with fancier shaders.
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Leyasu
Banned
Nobody is asking him to predict the future. They basically asked him what pc configuration was needed to play the demo, and he pretended not to know.
Which is unbelievable. I don’t know how people are still trying to follow his narrative.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
This seemed to be what Cerny was getting at when pressed for what it would take for the GPU to down-clock appreciably. He suggested you could write something specific to basically flip every transistor relentlessly, but the same code would cause a PS4 to crash/overheat.
Do you have a source on that ~40% figure? I don't doubt it as Nanite seems to rely heavily on Async Compute which can bump up that occupancy. I wonder to what extent the cache scrubbers mitigating the entire cache getting invalidated keeps them occupied. Maybe only in certain situations? But presumably enough to justify the expense? Is there any way of doing some telemetry on a PC GPU to see how often their caches get invalidated?
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
You're assuming they've already made a PC build of the PS5 demo and have run it on various configurations to benchmark it and get an idea of what is or would be required in future. What if at this stage it was built on/for a PS5 dev-kit using PS5 SDK ready for GDC 2020? This is all work in progress. Nanite, Lumen and UE5 are still well over a year away from being ready for public release. It makes no sense to start quoting required specs if they're going to be changing constantly over the next few months.
You're free to have your suspicions, but to effectively call anyone that doesn't agree with you an idiot or gullible is a bit silly in my opinion.
IllegalLemon
Member
Unless Sony wants to go completely crazy and use Leviathan instead of Kraken on the Pro, if there'll even be a Pro. Only time will tell, it's way too early to tell and the PS5 hasn't even released yet.
thurnishaleygw
Member
Apollo Helios
Member
I really like to know what was this in reaction to? I hope you know lol
FeiRR
Banned
Come on, of course they've run benchmarks on PC. That's where the development of any engine starts nowadays. But it doesn't mean it's ready for PC release nor they're ready to share anything. Gaming industry is quite peculiar in that respect: can you imagine car designers sharing every detail of their technological process with drivers? There's millions of dollars in R&D you're just not going to make public because those are your valuable assets.
I expect it to be similar size to PS4 Pro or a bit bigger. Remember that SSD chips take much less space than a mechanical drive (in terms of heat, I don't know). As it has to match DS colour, it'll probably be white-black in design. I don't like that idea but not that I care much.
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thurnishaleygw
Member
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
I don't doubt it was developed on a PC, that's how it's done, but if this demo is being made for and with Sony on a specific bit of hardware, the development PCs will be using that hardware's SDK for its engine features (they mention they used PS5's primitive shaders as another example).
Having this SDK installed allows you to emulate functionality before running it native on the dev-kit, but it isn't helpful in telling you what your performance would have been if you'd developed it with PC architecture and Windows GPU drivers in mind from the beginning.
That they're not ready to start quoting requirements because the engine and technology is still in its infancy was kind of my original point, and to me is exactly what I assumed when Sweeney said it's too early to say. Like it's literally too early to be saying that.
Radical_3d
Member
I’d love that the UE5 demo could run on a SX. Just imagine the room for improvement in assets streaming in the PS5.
HAL-01
Member
I could see them going for a throwback ps2 kind of design, but this time going for the full monolith look. Perhaps an xsx on a diet
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
This is what has me stumped at the moment. I'm playing Devil's Advocate versus people just asserting things based on gut feelings or wishful thinking because that's what being bored in a speculation and analysis thread is for, but in reality I have no fucking clue what was required to run the Lumen demo as far as IO goes. Contrary to what people might think, I wouldn't be that surprised to learn that it only took half of what PS5 IO was offering, or even less.
But what does seem crazy to me is that a multi-year conversation between Sony and Epic, between Cerny and Sweeney, resulted in Sony creating a 5.5GB/s SSD with completely custom flash controller to drive it, putting bets on the PC market having an expansion drive of the right size and cooling ability ready sometime in early 2021, and having a main chip relatively dominated by fixed function accelerator silicon for IO, and even having that IO pipeline extend as far as the GPU caches themselves, at the expense of just bunging in more CUs for an easy bit of marketing win, and all of this effort after all of this research is far in excess of what is currently or ever needed to enable what it is Cerny was saying it would.
I personally think you'd need to be naive to think Sony have got it that wrong.
If the Lumen demo ran precisely the same (from an IO standpoint) on XSX, then what on earth are Sony anticipating? And what on earth are Cerny and Sweeney talking about? They aren't idiots.
Leyasu
Banned
What you say could be right, and you are right to say that I am being silly....
But, isn’t most of the dev environment on a pc? The question was if the demo would work on a pc and what config is needed. I really have a hard time believing that they don’t have a reasonable idea of what would be needed to run it.
I know it is a long way from release, but that wasn’t the question. No need to be evasive.
Radical_3d
Member
And it’ll make more sense to make a demo for all platforms than for only one.
Engine will run pretty well, whatever that means. Not the demo.
Leyasu
Banned
No one is saying that anybody are idiots. No is saying that they have got it wrong either.
People are saying wait for the games. Wait and see what what is what and what is not. Seeing as Microsoft decided to put a decent SSD in their console could mean that epic had also have spoken to them about its importance for their new engine. Especially as Microsoft’s studios use unreal more than Sony’s.
Who knows? I get the feeling that you are not far from the path when you said that it could turn out that the demo didn’t even use everything that the ps5 had to offer
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
Again it comes back to what is meant by "it". "It" the in work game engine with the Nanite and Lumen technology that will have been in development years before they got a PS5 dev-kit? Or "it" the playable GDC demo made with Sony using a PS5 dev-kit?
You're right that both will absolutely be programmed on a PC, but if Sony's playable GDC demo was a project entirely designed for PS5, then the PCs set up for developing that game would be using a software development kit, or UE5 engine extensions to specifically target its hardware and talk through its APIs. They'll be using Sony APIs for programming the primitive shaders. They'll be using Sony APIs for using accessing the storage. All developed and tested and functionally emulated on a PC, but profiled and bench-marked on the dev-kit itself.
Kind of like when making an Android or iOS app. You use Android/iOS APIs while programming it on your PC, even running it at a slower speed in an emulator before pushing it to the real hardware and profiling it.
If you've made Sony a playable demo in your generic engine using your new technology and using Sony's APIs for accessing storage and GPU features, not to mention Sony's own graphics API as they don't use DirectX or likely anything PC related for rendering, that doesn't mean you'll know how well it would then work on various configurations of PC without basically making Sony's playable GDC demo with those APIs ripped out and the game programmed for PC architecture using standard libraries and PC drivers.
If I've made a 3D game for iOS using a desktop computer and Apples Metal graphics API, I'd have no idea how well it could run natively on a PC unless I rewrote large parts of it for PC, swapped out Metal for DirectX, OpenGL or Vulkan or something etc. Even though I can run it functionally perfectly fine in the editor or through the emulator on the desktop I'm using to develop it.
But this was a demo made for/with Sony for PS5 on a PS5 dev-kit. Sony wouldn't even let Epic make the flying scene playable in case people were able to fly out of the world and break the game, or see that they hadn't bothered to make art assets for the views to the side. Why would something this specific and made for a specific event also have been written for PC? I'm not saying it wasn't, but I'm not as convinced that it's clear they would have. I'm sure 18 months from now when the engine and the new technology is more mature and optimised they'll bundle this demo with it, and have made a PC build of it. But this far away from release, for something made for a Sony GDC event? I just don't think you can absolutely say they would have.
Who knows, maybe it didn't even tickle PS5's IO, or wouldn't even have stressed XSX's IO either. I'm not really that bothered either way if I'm honest. But if that is the case, what the hell is Sony planning for with the IO they have provided? Is it miscalculated and completely overkill? Even for this specific PS5 demo that Sony had creative control over?
I'm not asking that as some kind of challenge at you by the way, I'm genuinely interested in what the suggestion that Lumen is no big deal from an IO perspective actually means if true.
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Barakov
Gold Member
Can't remember off hand. I googled searched it and the gif was uploaded in 2016. So it was probably from an avoid the puddle stream from that time.
3liteDragon
Member
Don’t know how the colouring will be implemented but it’ll probably look like the devkit with V-shaped vents but much slimmer.
BadBreathOfTheWild
Banned
I also don't doubt Sony and Epic had a joint marketing deal to make this demonstration for PS5, it's the natural conclusion to the conversations they've had. that lead to PS5 and UE5 ending up where they have.
But that doesn't then just mean it's nothing but a marketing stunt and any old NVMe equipped system could run it in its current state at the same level of detail. If Sony were smart they'd have asked Epic to make something that really makes use of their specific IO, no matter how excessive and pointless it is to use that much bandwidth, purely to demonstrate what can be done.
In other words it can be both: it being marketing and it being genuinely a (pointlessly excessive?) test of PS5 IO aren't mutually exclusive, and it would make less sense for such a marketing deal to result in Epic making something that doesn't play to PS5's strengths and could run on pretty mid-range IO. That would be doing Sony a disservice.
My point is a lot of the "facts" being banded around to dismiss all this as smoke and mirrors actually raise more questions than they answer, and end up implying things that then actually end up making less sense than before when you think about it for more than a moment.
Did Sony massively drop the ball and overspend despite the collaboration? There's not a trivial difference in storage speed between PS5 and XSX.
Did Epic under deliver on Sony's PS5 demo, and is being coy about answering performance related questions exactly because they didn't do it justice?
These are interesting questions to me.
But that doesn't then just mean it's nothing but a marketing stunt and any old NVMe equipped system could run it in its current state at the same level of detail. If Sony were smart they'd have asked Epic to make something that really makes use of their specific IO, no matter how excessive and pointless it is to use that much bandwidth, purely to demonstrate what can be done.
In other words it can be both: it being marketing and it being genuinely a (pointlessly excessive?) test of PS5 IO aren't mutually exclusive, and it would make less sense for such a marketing deal to result in Epic making something that doesn't play to PS5's strengths and could run on pretty mid-range IO. That would be doing Sony a disservice.
My point is a lot of the "facts" being banded around to dismiss all this as smoke and mirrors actually raise more questions than they answer, and end up implying things that then actually end up making less sense than before when you think about it for more than a moment.
Did Sony massively drop the ball and overspend despite the collaboration? There's not a trivial difference in storage speed between PS5 and XSX.
Did Epic under deliver on Sony's PS5 demo, and is being coy about answering performance related questions exactly because they didn't do it justice?
These are interesting questions to me.
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