Support NeoGAF

[Snowdonhoffen]

What was the company that had been linked to Sony before ? it think it was doing a Lumen like solution to GI.

It wasn't the LocalRay technology from Adshir?

LocalRay Interview - 'We've Partnered with One of the Leading Console Manufacturers on Raytracing'

We have had a long and interesting chat with Adshir CEO and Founder, Dr. Reuven Bakalash, on his LocalRay cross-platform raytracing software.

wccftech.com

I remember them mentioning that a big console manufacturer will be using this, but we haven't heard anything yet.

Below you'll find the full transcript, where Bakalash reveals that the technology will be used by 'one of the leading console manufacturers' and by 'a major smartphone company' with deals to be announced later this year.

 

[reksveks]

It wasn't the LocalRay technology from Adshir?

LocalRay Interview - 'We've Partnered with One of the Leading Console Manufacturers on Raytracing'

We have had a long and interesting chat with Adshir CEO and Founder, Dr. Reuven Bakalash, on his LocalRay cross-platform raytracing software.

wccftech.com

I remember them mentioning that a big console manufacturer will be using this, but we haven't heard anything yet.

That's the one.

 

[PSX]

This is impossible. Just can't be. PS5 is struggling to run RE8 in 1080p.

I know this from my trusted source. A cousin who works for Nintendo who has friend over at Capcom who works as a cleaner and who was able to interpret notes REengine programmer left at her desk.

resident evil story mission. Please tell us more I enjoy this

 

[NEbeast]

Smart shift adjusting clocks when not needed and sending more power to cpu and gpu is all good and great but my question still stands - What happens when full clocks on cpu and gpu are needed? Surly demanding games will need full clocks on on both CPU and GPU. Surly you must see that games will need this, yet the ps5 and smart shift will not allow this for sustained lengths of time. Surly this is a detriment to the system.

Because both being 100% utilized is a very rare thing? Smart-shift helps push them closer to max utilisation by sharing power.

 

[Njocky]

GPU != APU
APU has CPU and GPU on same silicon and therefore the power budget is shared.

Smartshift makes the budget shared and fixed. It's not fixed in every APU. That it's shared is not relevant to anything I said. That it's fixed makes the 2 processors interdependent. We still don't know how long the PS5 can keep both at their max frequency. Cerny says most of the time. The Smartshift website says never (to be at their max frequency at the same time they'd both need more than half of the power budget).
It's always possible that Sony has modified smartshift but like the GPU features, it's rather a mystery still.

 

[BlueHawk357]

I will try to be nice

In other words: XSX would benefit from having Smartshift as well since it could handle power spikes better instead of throttling.

I will try to be nice.

You do not know what you are talking about at all. You most definitely do not understand architecture, and technology on a deep level.

What you are saying sounds like something RGT or goerdiegimp would say. Not long until everyone can shut up with Fake BS.

Smart shift is good. Actually, it's quite amazing. Saves throttling for hardware that can't support the beat output, and/or power issues.

However, if your console can handle the thermo and power of said hardware, it won't need to worry about this, and in fact be a step backward.

I don't want to get into this too much, as I'm sure some people wouldn't be able to take it in, not many people understood the HotChips. So for that, I will reply within 8 days.

 

[Elog]

The PS5 has variable CLOCKS and not just a transferable power budget

The only reason for doing this is to lower the power cost of a given instruction - i.e. it is to modulate power consumption.

It is easier to avoid "bombing out" (as you put it) a fixed target as opposed to a moving one. That doesn't even take into account that it would take more load to bomb out either the CPU or the GPU, as they are both more powerful than in the PS5.

The answer is a no here - it is not easier or harder to bomb out a piece of silicon if it is fixed or variable in the frequency department. It depends on the power, voltage and thermal limits of the silicon which is outside of this discussion. There is no reason to believe the PS5 is worse in this department than XSX - the opposite than anything given larger PSU, more advanced cooling solution and smaller die.

If the XSX desperately needed AMD smartshift, so would AMD's most powerful graphic card the RX 6800 XT and ironically they both have fixed clocks and no smartshift. Just because the PS5 has something doesn't make it a requisite or even good. It allowed Sony to reach a goal. If that goal was to manage noise and thermals, early indications is that XSX achieves them just fine with fixed clocks. If the goal was to lower gamer's electricity bills, I'll go ahead and give the PS5 a win on that just based on the intent (still have to see in practice)

Smartshift is for APUs, The 6800XT is a GPU. 6800XT has variable clocks to maximise efficiency.

 

[xacto]

Move over geordiemp , you have been replaced. NOVICE.

Md Ray My man, lets talk technical stuff, later, much later

While Md Ray made an amazing post, so does geordiemp , but you little fish forgot how things work in real world. Take a look at this picture and have a little respect

 

[reksveks]

In other words: XSX would could benefit from having Smartshift as well since it could handle power spikes better instead of if it is throttling.

That's more accurate, right?

 

[sircaw]

While Md Ray made an amazing post, so does geordiemp , but you little fish forgot how things work in real world. Take a look at this picture and have a little respect

To me that picture looks like the fun is about to start, all i need now is a lid, and about 20 gallons of water.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Dynamic 4K meaning at 1080p unless staring at skybox.

I was wondering, how many games do we know of that run at native 4K with RT?
I can only think of Spider-Man Miles Morales. It seems like every other game (on both consoles) run at dynamic res with RT and that will probably be the standard.

 

[funking giblet]

I will try to be nice.

You do not know what you are talking about at all. You most definitely do not understand architecture, and technology on a deep level.

What you are saying sounds like something RGT or goerdiegimp would say. Not long until everyone can shut up with Fake BS.

Smart shift is good. Actually, it's quite amazing. Saves throttling for hardware that can't support the beat output, and/or power issues.

However, if your console can handle the thermo and power of said hardware, it won't need to worry about this, and in fact be a step backward.

I don't want to get into this too much, as I'm sure some people wouldn't be able to take it in, not many people understood the HotChips. So for that, I will reply within 8 days.

Oh look everybody, a moron!

 

[Tchu-Espresso]

I was wondering, how many games do we know of that run at native 4K with RT?
I can only think of Spider-Man Miles Morales. It seems like every other game (on both consoles) run at dynamic res with RT and that will probably be the standard.

At 30fps there are already quite a few upcoming games on the PS5.

Ratchet and GT7 for starters

 

[HAL-01]

Seems like being "nice" isn't that hard if people would try.

It’s hard being “nice” when you see a lengthy breakdown of the relationship between clocks, loads and power, and your reaction is to act condescending, confrontational, and bring up a long list of poorly researched “counterarguments”.

I admire Elog’s patience when it comes to trying to teach people who clearly don’t have much interest in learning beyond argument fodder

 

[MasterCornholio]

...and when did this happen exactly?

Right here.

recap you angry, angry little man...

Either that or your making a reference to Warwick Davis.

 

[HAL-01]

I will try to be nice.

You do not know what you are talking about at all. You most definitely do not understand architecture, and technology on a deep level.

What you are saying sounds like something RGT or goerdiegimp would say. Not long until everyone can shut up with Fake BS.

Smart shift is good. Actually, it's quite amazing. Saves throttling for hardware that can't support the beat output, and/or power issues.

However, if your console can handle the thermo and power of said hardware, it won't need to worry about this, and in fact be a step backward.

I don't want to get into this too much, as I'm sure some people wouldn't be able to take it in, not many people understood the HotChips. So for that, I will reply within 8 days.

Hey it’s the guy that tried to prove this place is full of Sony fanboys by pointing out that the forum does, in fact, talk about the ps5 when there’s news about it

 

[sircaw]

Remember guys and girls,

If you have not made a donation or just want to leave some kind words, this thread is still open. i will only keep bumping it for a few more times.

Thanks all

Alysa, Aeneagames needs your help.

For those of you that don't know, our very own Garfield @AeneaGames who frequents the gaming forums is, unfortunately, a very sick lady. The little lady is suffering from incurable cancer and could really do with our help. I asked @EviLore lore for his permission to make this post and he...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Ramz87]

At 30fps there are already quite a few upcoming games on the PS5.

Ratchet and GT7 for starters

I’m sure GT7 is 4K/60 with RT?

 

[PSX]

 

[PropellerEar]

Smartshift makes the budget shared and fixed. It's not fixed in every APU. That it's shared is not relevant to anything I said. That it's fixed makes the 2 processors interdependent. We still don't know how long the PS5 can keep both at their max frequency. Cerny says most of the time. The Smartshift website says never (to be at their max frequency at the same time they'd both need more than half of the power budget).
It's always possible that Sony has modified smartshift but like the GPU features, it's rather a mystery still.

Think of smartshift on APU as kind of a ultrafast control single handle bathroom faucet.
There is a cap how much you can increase the flow of water(power), but you can vary the amount of hot(GPU) and cold(CPU) you need in terms of what you need for your hands at the given moment(frame).

Discrete CPU and GPU have separated budgets so it will work more like a two handle bathroom faucet.

We don't have enough info on if /when and how much the frequencies are needed to be varied from the top frequency... but according to Cerny's talk the need seems to be minimal.

 

[Tchu-Espresso]

I’m sure GT7 is 4K/60 with RT?

Oops that’s right.

 

[Dodkrake]

Seems like being "nice" isn't that hard if people would try.
Thanks for the breakdown although not much of what you said if any is new to me. I have pre-orderd a PS%, so I obviously paid a lot of attention to the official communication on what's inside the machine.

• The PS5 has variable CLOCKS and not just a transferable power budget
• What drives the clock fluctuation (whether it's workload or thermals) is less important than the fact that the available processing power at any given time is unpredictable to developers. Your assessment of fixed vs variable occults that fact, but Cerny acknowledges and adresses this in his post GDC interview to Eurogamer. No need to revisit this. Fixed clock profiles in PS5 dev kits are the result of this realisation ("it's useful for optimisation"): https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive
• A legitimate question that was asked by someone else and ridiculed is what happens if a component is not running at its maximum clock capacity (because it doesn't have the power to) at a time when it needs to in order to cope with the task at hand
• We don't necessarily need your answer to that because we have Cerny's. To paraphrase him, that would be an extreme a very rare edge case scenario that the PS5 would handle more gracefully than any other console (by dropping rates or graphic quality instead of going into emergency shutdown).
• It is easier to avoid "bombing out" (as you put it) a fixed target as opposed to a moving one. That doesn't even take into account that it would take more load to bomb out either the CPU or the GPU, as they are both more powerful than in the PS5.
• If the XSX desperately needed AMD smartshift, so would AMD's most powerful graphic card the RX 6800 XT and ironically they both have fixed clocks and no smartshift. Just because the PS5 has something doesn't make it a requisite or even good. It allowed Sony to reach a goal. If that goal was to manage noise and thermals, early indications is that XSX achieves them just fine with fixed clocks. If the goal was to lower gamer's electricity bills, I'll go ahead and give the PS5 a win on that just based on the intent (still have to see in practice)

I will also try to be nice:

• So does every single CPU and GPU on the market. Your power budget is fixed, so if you go above that same power budget, you need to downclock. This is nothing groundbreaking. Workload 1 may required 3GHz to be completed in 33ms, workload 2 may only require 1.5GHz. Now thing your clocks adjusting every single millisecond.
• Your cerny quote is plainly wrong and out of context:

He first says:

Power plays a role when optimising. If you optimise and keep the power the same you see all of the benefit of the optimisation. If you optimise and increase the power then you're giving a bit of the performance back. What's most interesting here is optimisation for power consumption, if you can modify your code so that it has the same absolute performance but reduced power then that is a win.

he then says

Regarding locked profiles, we support those on our dev kits, it can be helpful not to have variable clocks when optimising. Released PS5 games always get boosted frequencies so that they can take advantage of the additional power

and finally adds

Developers don't need to optimise in any way; if necessary, the frequency will adjust to whatever actions the CPU and GPU are performing

This should all read: If you optimize for your power envelope, it doesn't matter what the frequencies are. Of course variable clocks are not ideal on dev kits, because those are designed to develop and optimize the game: You'll want to set a specific profile (always 1.8GHz, for example) to know how your code will behave. This is not to say variable clocks are a pain to optimize for, because you don't need to account clocks, you need to account the power envelope and stay within it.

• On the bombing out, incorrect and over simplified. Your APU will either shut down because of thermal throttling or power consumption over budget. On a fixed clock strategy, this is true, on a variable clock strategy, this is also true. The difference, though, is that on a variable clock strategy, you can downclock to stay within your power and heat budgets. That's all.
• Apples to oranges comparison. Smartshift is a tech for APUs, not for single CPU or GPU units. MS didn't go with smartshift because they went more conservative with their APU design, likely to cut costs and support their server blade for XCloud. Different design philosophies, different outcomes.

 

[LiquidRex]

LiquidRex no hard feelings! I’m just having a little fun

I know.

 

[yewles1]

To me that picture looks like the fun is about to start, all i need now is a lid, and about 20 gallons of water.

* insert racist Asian joke *

 

[SSfox]

Wow. I never knew they made these covers in arabic.

Some european versions of games i own have Arabic languages (and Europe languages of course), like GOW and MHW.

 

[3liteDragon]

 

[sircaw]

* insert racist Asian joke *

What are you trying to say you lilliputian.

 

[yewles1]

I was wondering, how many games do we know of that run at native 4K with RT?
I can only think of Spider-Man Miles Morales. It seems like every other game (on both consoles) run at dynamic res with RT and that will probably be the standard.

GT7, R&C, Quantum Error...

 

[HAL-01]

GT7, R&C, Quantum Error...

You can, or cannot, add Demon’s Souls to that list

 

[yewles1]

What are you trying to say you lilliputian.

... you have a height fetish, don't you.

 

[geordiemp]

I will try to be nice.

You do not know what you are talking about at all. You most definitely do not understand architecture, and technology on a deep level.

What you are saying sounds like something RGT or goerdiegimp would say. Not long until everyone can shut up with Fake BS.

Smart shift is good. Actually, it's quite amazing. Saves throttling for hardware that can't support the beat output, and/or power issues.

However, if your console can handle the thermo and power of said hardware, it won't need to worry about this, and in fact be a step backward.

I don't want to get into this too much, as I'm sure some people wouldn't be able to take it in, not many people understood the HotChips. So for that, I will reply within 8 days.

Name calling is something children and people with low IQ do. Embarrasing.

And if you want to discuss computer hardware please read up on it first.

 

[PSX]

All that seems pretty meaningless, when we see the same performance in multiplats for XSX and PS5. For now. Just two different approaches by Sony and Xbox.

The PS5 seems to have an advantage in throughput and loading, but obviously not more. Even though, first party titles will look better on PS5 again, because of the really strong and talented studios under Sony.

But too argue that either console has any huge advantage or disadvantage in comparison, seems very unreasonable.

All in all, the base performance of both console could have been better. The inequality between nextgen and pc will be immense in the coming years.

You know what meaningless? Not having a first party exclusive games for 2 years.

Microsoft says Xbox Series X won’t have exclusive first-party games at launch

The console will be backwards compatible and support Xbox Play Anywhere

www.theverge.com

 

[sircaw]

Name calling is something children and people with low IQ do. Embarrasing.

 

[LokusAbriss]

You know what meaningless? Not having a first party exclusive games for 2 years.

Microsoft says Xbox Series X won’t have exclusive first-party games at launch

The console will be backwards compatible and support Xbox Play Anywhere

www.theverge.com

True. That sucks and is disapointing. They had all their hope in Halo Infinite and it all shattered. Big mistake on the Xbox side.

On another note, why is Sony so reluctant with showing gameplay of multiplatform games?

 

[Riky]

You know what meaningless? Not having a first party exclusive games for 2 years.

Microsoft says Xbox Series X won’t have exclusive first-party games at launch

The console will be backwards compatible and support Xbox Play Anywhere

www.theverge.com

Gears Tactics is a first party console exclusive on day one.

 

[SNPlayen]

Well, SmartShift is about shifting power back and fourth to the CPU and GPU as needed. It's more or less power delivery to the component that needs that extra power. In essence, it's set up to minimize allocated power that's not being utilized on either side...where there is demand of course......
Listen to this...




I guess the RE team are optimization gods.....They went from 1080p struggling to maintain 30fps with no RT to 4k 60fps with RT........It seems Sony placed an extra GPU on all PS5 dev kits these last few weeks...Now the PS5 can finally deliver RE8 in 4k.....

It’s almost like games don’t get optimised at the start to mid of development or something.

 

[Felessan]

On another note, why is Sony so reluctant with showing gameplay of multiplatform games?

We saw gameplay of Godfall (multiplatform) and CoD (multiplatform) among others.
General embargo still in place, this means that only dosed information is shown, and there Sony follows its own priorities and what has the greatest impact.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

We saw gameplay of Godfall (multiplatform) and CoD (multiplatform) among others.
General embargo still in place, this means that only dosed information is shown, and there Sony follows its own priorities and what has the greatest impact.

Also NBA 2K21 and DMC V.

 

[sircaw]

Seems like a slow day so far, some music to make things chirp along nicely.

Love the girl on the left, Cough.

 

[Thirty7ven]

On another note, why is Sony so reluctant with showing gameplay of multiplatform games?

???? What is this?

First, it's not Sony that decides to show games that aren't theirs. It's up to the publishers. Secondly, NBA2k, COD Cold War, Godfall etc

 

[mejin]

Gears Tactics is a first party console exclusive on day one.

not exactly day one...

 

[DrDamn]

On another note, why is Sony so reluctant with showing gameplay of multiplatform games?

PS5 footage of multiplatform titles is so good even MS is showing it ...



Seriously. Marketing deals are at play so we don't have PS5 footage of Dirt 5, WatchDogs or AssCreed yet, but you also don't have XSX footage of CoD, NBA2K21 etc.

 

[onesvenus]

Sorry all, I've been away kind of

So don't know if this has been commented on.

The developer mentions, Infinity Cache allowing to max out the visuals while maintaining hight frames... Funnily enough Godfall on the PS5 looks freaking awesome and maintains constant frames, with only 448Gb/s bandwidth

What's more probably is that PS5 version is not using the same quality preset. We'll see comparison when both versions are out

 

[Redlight]

Right here.

Either that or your making a reference to Warwick Davis.

Well, I didn't know you had video.

FWIW the 'little' in 'angry little man' wasn't a reference to physical stature.

 

[xacto]

Seems like a slow day so far, some music to make things chirp along nicely.

Love the girl on the left, Cough.

Since it's a rainy Tuesday here, question for you; what's with you and girl bands? Were you also into Spice Girls years back?

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Edit: Added reddit link

 

[djjinx2]

Starfield and TES:VI day one on gamepass!

 

[xacto]

The Creation Engine is a 3D video game engine created by Bethesda Game Studios based on the Gamebryo engine. The Creation Engine has been used to create role-playing video games such as The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Fallout 4, and Fallout 76.

This Creation engine has been "overhauled?!" Well, excuse me, but I thought we were done with this crap. But maybe not. It just depends how much of a lie Todd Howard is telling when he says it's overhauled.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic, but we all remember that engine, back from 2011.

 

[El Sueño]

Damn. Can´t wait for more news on the PS5.

 

[AeneaGames]

no, they could easily implement it. But they won’t. Why should they? They already have the most powerful console. And they want to make it as easy for the developer as possible.
And having sustained and predicable clocks makes it easier for devs than variable clocks.

It does huh? Of course you would know as a dev with both dev kits!

Care to elaborate what you, as a dev, need to do extra for the PS5 due to the variable clocks? Cerny lied again I suppose that it would all be automatic, darn that Cerny guy!

Ah, wait, I understand already, while on xbox it's really easy to implement RT it's not so easy on the PS5! That explains why it needs to be patched in later!
Hmm, or was that about the XSX? Bah, what do I know, I'm not a dev like you!