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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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kyliethicc

Member
Maybe we will actually get a PS5 Pro at $500 (disc) and $400 (digital), while the PS5 Slim will be digital only at $300. Maybe Sony will just cut enough stuff non-essential stuff and do something similar to what Nintendo did with the Switch Lite.. same specs for devs, just lacking a few things but sold for $100 less. I doubt Sony will ever do what Xbox did with Series S.

But I bet if there is a PS5 Pro, it will just be a minor spec bump with 1.65 TB SSD and some quality of life improvements. I just can't see it being a similarly proportional jump from PS5 as the PS4 Pro was from PS4.
 
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Especially Digital Foundry who still to this day are SHOCKED and BAFFLED (their words) by the PS5 outperforming the Xbox Series X.

They wouldn't be if they gave Mark the chance to explain everything to them. Really didn't like how they tried to twist some of what Mark was saying into a negative because they didn't fully understand how the PS5 functions. I do enjoy what Digital Foundry does but they should have acted more professional with the systems architect.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights

And this is why trying to use BC as a metric for console performance is iffy. He gives it high praise while inferring its basic BC.

Its locked at 1800p. We know good n well the PS5 can do 4K, dynamic 4K. And this is mostly just going from 30 to 60. Not much other enhancements.


Maybe its their Streaming Only Xbox Gamepass Stick. Hence the name XS because of its small form factor. :messenger_face_screaming:

I hope so. I want a discless version.


A discless version of a streaming stick?
 

Loxus

Member
They wouldn't be if they gave Mark the chance to explain everything to them. Really didn't like how they tried to twist some of what Mark was saying into a negative because they didn't fully understand how the PS5 functions. I do enjoy what Digital Foundry does but they should have acted more professional with the systems architect.
Digital Foundry are great, but they don't understand change.
Instead of throwing more power at the problem, Mark Cerny actually did something important and reinvent the wheel by removing the gaming related bottle necks.

In fact, the PS5 in the whole is change for the better of gaming.
We still yet too see anything running on XBSX that looks as good as God of War, hell even TLOU 1 still amazes me.
Even PC is lacking to amaze lately.

I think Mark is right to focus on the storage in the PS5.
If the PS5 is anything like the PS3 and PS4, the future will be amazing for us.
And I like what UE5 is doing with the PS5.
 

arvfab

Banned
It's not true. That specific test was flawed (the guy didn't reapply the correct thermal paste or it was incorrectly done). It was redone by others: GDDR6 temps are fine.

Do you maybe have any link to these tests? I would like to rub them in some people's faces, who keep spreading that bulls**t.
 

kyliethicc

Member
IKEA have console boxes for shoppers

Vihp1Z1.jpg
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Digital Foundry are great, but they don't understand change.
Instead of throwing more power at the problem, Mark Cerny actually did something important and reinvent the wheel by removing the gaming related bottle necks.

I think Mark is right to focus on the storage in the PS5.
If the PS5 is anything like the PS3 and PS4, the future will be amazing for us.
And I like what UE5 is doing with the PS5.

It was odd that most didn't understand why "The Road to the PS5" talk was so important. I expected DF to speak to that more, months ago. But they didn't.
 
As much as i’d love to know about the ins and outs of the hardware too, none of this has any real, meaningful relevance to the average everyday consumer. So we shouldn’t hold our breath.

These are details that get disclosed under NDA to developers working on the hardware, i.e. the people the info is most relevant to. The inner workings of the GE for example is irrelevant to 99.9% of the regular gaming consumer base, so there’s really no benefit to Sony in trying to share those details. There’s also the question of the medium by which such info could be shared. Even supposed tech press like DF aren’t rendering engineers and wouldn’t fully grasp the nuance and full implications of such hardware features and innovations. So it’s unsurprising Jim Ryan made Sony take the approach they did after the Road to PS5 talk.
The RGT leak makes sense but i dont trust the guy's sources. It's something I can come up with.

I think Cerny just got sick of Richard's constant skepticism and said fuck it these people are hopeless. It's clear now that he wasnt doing damage control about variable clocks or going fast and narrow over wide and slow. If I was Mark Cerny, I would be giving everyone a cold shoulder after that as well. Especially Digital Foundry who still to this day are SHOCKED and BAFFLED (their words) by the PS5 outperforming the Xbox Series X. Umm maybe they should've trusted the Engineer who told them this stuff 8 months ago instead of some PR from Liar of the Year Phil Spencer?

Good points, it's true that Digital Foundry have been acting a little weird since the next-gen reveal kicked off back in late 2019, I noticed a few times they how they were sucking Microsoft's dick a few times (apologies for the vulgar language, no other way of saying it), yet they treated every little thing from Sony with skepticism and doubt, especially their analysis of the Road to PS5 talk. I don't mind that but they didn't show the same attitude towards Series X. Then we had the issue of the variable frequencies and that Mark Cerny interview, Richard really just showed his display of ignorance. I think DF were annoyed Sony didn't give them VIP treatment like Microsoft did, which was a good decision on Sony's part in retrospect.

That being said, Digital Foundry are not the only mediums in which Mark Cerny can communicate more PS5 information, there are several magazines/websites out there which appeal to 'the enthusiasts', such as GameSutra, MCV, Wired and even the Verge, all of which Cerny did interviews with revealing the deep inner workings of the PS4 and Pro and there was a lot of information in them which had not been revealed previously. I understand Cerny's frustration with DF/Eurogamer, but it's not a reach to say he does have the desire to share a more in-depth look into the PS5, a project which you can already imagine he put a lot of work into. Even in recent days and months, we learnt that the Epic Games worked closely with Mark Cerny, we learnt that PS5's architecture was heavily influenced by Epic games and Unreal Engine, through a collaboration and the vision to try and see where graphics is headed in the next 10 years. It would be nice to see this through Cerny's perspective.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
XS is a confusing name. tbh
VERY confusing. People are more prone to accept and remember 'SX' rather than 'XS.' It just doesn't work as well. Then again...I'm done trying to figure out what Microsoft is doing. I think they are simply too big to be focused and nimble perhaps. I mean, that happens to HUGE companies which Microsoft is. I work for another HUGE company so I know that kind of environment well.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Good points, it's true that Digital Foundry have been acting a little weird since the next-gen reveal kicked off back in late 2019, I noticed a few times they how they were sucking Microsoft's dick a few times (apologies for the vulgar language, no other way of saying it), yet they treated every little thing from Sony with skepticism and doubt, especially their analysis of the Road to PS5 talk. I don't mind that but they didn't show the same attitude towards Series X. Then we had the issue of the variable frequencies and that Mark Cerny interview, Richard really just showed his display of ignorance. I think DF were annoyed Sony didn't give them VIP treatment like Microsoft did, which was a good decision on Sony's part in retrospect.

That being said, Digital Foundry are not the only mediums in which Mark Cerny can communicate more PS5 information, there are several magazines/websites out there which appeal to 'the enthusiasts', such as GameSutra, MCV, Wired and even the Verge, all of which Cerny did interviews with revealing the deep inner workings of the PS4 and Pro and there was a lot of information in them which had not been revealed previously. I understand Cerny's frustration with DF/Eurogamer, but it's not a reach to say he does have the desire to share a more in-depth look into the PS5, a project which you can already imagine he put a lot of work into. Even in recent days and months, we learnt that the Epic Games worked closely with Mark Cerny, we learnt that PS5's architecture was heavily influenced by Epic games and Unreal Engine, through a collaboration and the vision to try and see where graphics is headed in the next 10 years. It would be nice to see this through Cerny's perspective.

I think we'll get that in due time.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
On my side, I have also the game, and I don't have any issue with this tunnel, I have the same results than what is seen on PS5 in NX video, that's why for me it was a problem with HDR capture, so I'm surprise with your answer :messenger_grinning_sweat: I will take a screenshot when possible to share it if you want.
Yes that's interesting. I've only a basic Sony 4k tv so I don't use HDR. I'll have to try mine with HDR but it should be like that without HDR.
 

sinnergy

Member
I think it's too early to say MS got played, but yes it seems they did fuck up. After all that talk about being the most powerful console, they had to deliver and they failed. It's broken promises at best, and misleading marketing at worst. The trust has been broken though looking at how the xbox fans have reacted, it seems the fanbase wont care that they were lied to. they called the series s a 1440p console, and yet watchdogs is running at 900p on it. not a peep from xbox fans. i saw MrFunSocks complain about sony fans and is now leaving gaf because of us, but at least I criticize Sony when I see that they have lied to me. That's the difference between MS and Sony fans.

To me, the biggest fuck up happened way before launch when they started talking about how they will not have games for the next 2-3 years. Specs dont matter, games do. This is by far THE worst launch line up period, ever, period. And there is literally no end in sight. They wont have any AAA games until 2022 or 2023. They better fucking make Halo next gen and completely revamp the graphics or they are going to get destroyed by the PS5 exclusives coming out next year. Horizon is cross gen and it looks a gen ahead of Halo already. whats going to happen if god of war turns out to be next gen only?

I remember people here and on era downplaying the lack of new innovations in the controller and in the UI. Anyone criticizing MS for them was labelled a Sony fanboy, but to me it was clear that this was a very lazy console. It was almost like they put the minimal amount of effort into launching their console. Maybe the series s took up the R&D resources for the controller and UI, or maybe Phil just didnt give a shit, but it's clear that they simple phoned it in. No games, same controller, same UI, amazing specs that dont offer amazing performance despite being more expensive... people call cyberpunk a rushed game, but this is a rushed console. Now they are talking about releasing a controller with dual sense features, fixing the tools to offer better performance, like wtf.

I can understand being outengineered and tbh, what cerny did with the i/o was going above and beyond, and we cant expect everyone to come up with innovations like that in this industry. this happens once every few decades. What I dont care for is the dishonest way they went about highlighting their tflops advantage knowing that the extra tflops were not translating into better performance.
You start with it’s to early to say , yet post a wall of text why they failed 🤨
 

sinnergy

Member
They wouldn't be if they gave Mark the chance to explain everything to them. Really didn't like how they tried to twist some of what Mark was saying into a negative because they didn't fully understand how the PS5 functions. I do enjoy what Digital Foundry does but they should have acted more professional with the systems architect.
Sony wasn’t very open to press, if the had a open dialogue it would have had a different outcome .
 

Tmack

Member
But I bet if there is a PS5 Pro, it will just be a minor spec bump with 1.65 TB SSD and some quality of life improvements. I just can't see it being a similarly proportional jump from PS5 as the PS4 Pro was from PS4.

Why not? Judging by the quality of early gen games we are entering a very, very long gen.

I bet the PS5 Pro will com even later than the ps4 pro, which will leave margin for great hardware improvement.
 

icerock

Member
Sony wasn’t very open to press, if the had a open dialogue it would have had a different outcome .

I disagree, Sony became reluctant after reception to the Cerny keynote. The first official article on anything next-gen came from them in form of a Wired piece in Early 2019, followed by another in Late 2019. MS revealed it a little bit later.

And, they were reluctant for good reason, the amount of FUD and BS which sprung from that keynote. It's difficult to put a lid on that until you can show the results in form of software. As someone, who was active on the forum after the keynote, it was a mess. Front page was full of concern articles about "missing features" from dubious sources which were taken up as facts and used in warring.

DF do brilliant work but their bread and butter is fueling console wars. Just ask yourself, what was the point in Richard benchmarking RDNA 1.0 GPUs at ultra-high clocks, when we know, they were bottle-necked by power/bandwidth or both? Straight after, he got answers from horses mouth on variable frequency and how that will translate into performance on a newer architecture? Skepticism is justified, if you tow the line for both brands. In instance of DF, it's been anything but. And, I would extend that to large parts of Western media in general. There's been lot of skepticism and doom/gloom preceding PS5 launch based on nothing which could be dubbed as concrete. So, it'd be unfair to pin the blame on Sony for not being very open, they held back and let the results in form of games/hardware feature set/BC speak for themselves.
 
Good points, it's true that Digital Foundry have been acting a little weird since the next-gen reveal kicked off back in late 2019, I noticed a few times they how they were sucking Microsoft's dick a few times (apologies for the vulgar language, no other way of saying it), yet they treated every little thing from Sony with skepticism and doubt, especially their analysis of the Road to PS5 talk. I don't mind that but they didn't show the same attitude towards Series X. Then we had the issue of the variable frequencies and that Mark Cerny interview, Richard really just showed his display of ignorance. I think DF were annoyed Sony didn't give them VIP treatment like Microsoft did, which was a good decision on Sony's part in retrospect.

That being said, Digital Foundry are not the only mediums in which Mark Cerny can communicate more PS5 information, there are several magazines/websites out there which appeal to 'the enthusiasts', such as GameSutra, MCV, Wired and even the Verge, all of which Cerny did interviews with revealing the deep inner workings of the PS4 and Pro and there was a lot of information in them which had not been revealed previously. I understand Cerny's frustration with DF/Eurogamer, but it's not a reach to say he does have the desire to share a more in-depth look into the PS5, a project which you can already imagine he put a lot of work into. Even in recent days and months, we learnt that the Epic Games worked closely with Mark Cerny, we learnt that PS5's architecture was heavily influenced by Epic games and Unreal Engine, through a collaboration and the vision to try and see where graphics is headed in the next 10 years. It would be nice to see this through Cerny's perspective.
I agree and I think it’s an issue of timing.

There’s no benefit to Sony to go into more detail on the inner workings of their hardware and the design choices thereof. It makes more sense to let the games launch that validate those design choices, proving them superior to some if the choices made by the competition. We’ve already started to see that in inital console game face-offs. But as games like R&C launch showing just what the core hardware features like the SSD/IO can do, it makes for a much more convincing and compelling argument as to why Cerny designed the PS5 the way he did.

Plus, (I would hope) it would engender far less disingenuous hot takes from the broader gaming media. As it becomes much harder to construct shitty arguments about stuff like “tools” in the face of an overwhelming body of evidence to the contrary.
 
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DrDamn

Member




At timestamp above (just under 5 mins).

"my guess would be full boost is given to the GPU whilst CPU frequencies drop back just a touch"

How does Richard Leadbetter not understand this yet? It's a power profile not a frequency profile. Comments like this perpetuate the mis-understanding. Given the CPU load will be based on PS4 CPU load then power requirements for the CPU would be low and both CPU and GPU could run at full clocks.
 

Loxus

Member


At timestamp above (just under 5 mins).

"my guess would be full boost is given to the GPU whilst CPU frequencies drop back just a touch"

How does Richard Leadbetter not understand this yet? It's a power profile not a frequency profile. Comments like this perpetuate the mis-understanding. Given the CPU load will be based on PS4 CPU load then power requirements for the CPU would be low and both CPU and GPU could run at full clocks.

I starting to think Richard isn't as technical as he makes it out to be.
In his interview with Mark, he was told how it works.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive • Eurogamer.net

7rIAX8b.png

But he just acts dumb and refuse to believe how powerful the PS5 is.
 
I starting to think Richard isn't as technical as he makes it out to be.
In his interview with Mark, he was told how it works.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive • Eurogamer.net

7rIAX8b.png

But he just acts dumb and refuse to believe how powerful the PS5 is.

I think he's struggling to see that it's work load based. And even when the GPU has a lot of work to do (main point behind thd design) the CPU can spare some unused power so it can tackle that work load.
 

Mahavastu

Member


At timestamp above (just under 5 mins).

"my guess would be full boost is given to the GPU whilst CPU frequencies drop back just a touch"

How does Richard Leadbetter not understand this yet? It's a power profile not a frequency profile. Comments like this perpetuate the mis-understanding. Given the CPU load will be based on PS4 CPU load then power requirements for the CPU would be low and both CPU and GPU could run at full clocks.

He does not even say WHY he think the PS5 throttles down the CPU, he just says they probably do it.
But as you say, the CPU at full load executes the work intended for the PS4 much faster and has time to idle around, such there is no real need to throttle it down. As long there are no incompatibilities because of the performance there is no reason not to run the CPU at full speed.
 
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roops67

Member


At timestamp above (just under 5 mins).

"my guess would be full boost is given to the GPU whilst CPU frequencies drop back just a touch"

How does Richard Leadbetter not understand this yet? It's a power profile not a frequency profile. Comments like this perpetuate the mis-understanding. Given the CPU load will be based on PS4 CPU load then power requirements for the CPU would be low and both CPU and GPU could run at full clocks.

So true. He's got it back to front, he's put the cart before the horse. Using the word 'boost' is wrong, the CPU and GPU are set at 3.5ghz and 2.23ghz, there is no boost over that. It 'slightly' drops frequency of one only when the power demand is over the wattage and TDP budget, when CPU or GPU is getting pushed hard and the other has power to spare like a see-saw. The PS5 does also balance 'tune' the GPU frequencies on an instance to instance basis to mitigate 'race to idle' conditions, returning power back to the overall budget

These concepts Richard and the others have trouble comprehending/grasping, they're still in the world of stated overall 'theoretical' TeraFlops equals more power, the situation with the XSX hasn't taught them anything
 
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FranXico

Member
I starting to think Richard isn't as technical as he makes it out to be.
In his interview with Mark, he was told how it works.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive • Eurogamer.net

7rIAX8b.png

But he just acts dumb and refuse to believe how powerful the PS5 is.
It's a feedback control system, but the monitored parameter is not frequency, or even power. There is a power budget ceiling shared between the CPU and GPU, but the monitored parameter is workload, which I speculate is probably estimated based on executed instructions over a period of time. The control is done on frequency, but nothing is scaling linearly. I have a hard time taking any supposed expert claiming such oversimplifications seriously.

The "give and take" scenario requires a game that heavily stresses both the CPU and GPU simultaneously. GoT, which is designed to run on a PS4, is not stressing either.

There are countless other examples of Richard not understanding technical things that are not as simple as "bigger number = good".
 
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v_iHuGi

Banned
It's a feedback control system, but the monitored parameter is not frequency, or even power. There is a power budget ceiling shared between the CPU and GPU, but the monitored parameter is workload, which I speculate is probably estimated based on executed instructions over a period of time. The control is done on frequency, but nothing is scaling linearly. I have a hard time taking any supposed expert claiming such oversimplifications seriously.

The "give and take" scenario requires a game that heavily stresses both the CPU and GPU simultaneously. GoT, which is designed to run on a PS4, is not stressing either.

There are countless other examples of Richard not understanding technical things that are not as simple as "bigger number = good".

GPU and CPU can run at max freq 95% of the time, when it drops it is usually on a single frame.

Ps5 was designed to run these clocks but what Cerny talked about was THAT IF NEEDED, CLOCKS can be adjusted DOWN.

According to Richard Ghost of Tsushima is only using 2.1ghz of the CPU NOT 3.5ghz.
 

ethomaz

Banned
GPU and CPU can run at max freq 95% of the time, when it drops it is usually on a single frame.

Ps5 was designed to run these clocks but what Cerny talked about was THAT IF NEEDED, CLOCKS can be adjusted DOWN.

According to Richard Ghost of Tsushima is only using 2.1ghz of the CPU NOT 3.5ghz.
If true it is because it is BC using PS4 Pro clocks.
PS4 Pro CPU runs at 2.13Ghz.

That has nothing to do with PS5 smart frequency.
 
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It's a feedback control system, but the monitored parameter is not frequency, or even power. There is a power budget ceiling shared between the CPU and GPU, but the monitored parameter is workload, which I speculate is probably estimated based on executed instructions over a period of time. The control is done on frequency, but nothing is scaling linearly. I have a hard time taking any supposed expert claiming such oversimplifications seriously.

The "give and take" scenario requires a game that heavily stresses both the CPU and GPU simultaneously. GoT, which is designed to run on a PS4, is not stressing either.

There are countless other examples of Richard not understanding technical things that are not as simple as "bigger number = good".

It’s not a feedback control system, in that there’s no monitored parameter; in that there doesn’t need to be. GPU workload isn’t measured because it’s entirely deterministic, i.e. determined by the software compiled into machine code.

The PS5 GPU will likely include control logic in software at the driver level that contains power consumption info for all instructions executed on the GPU, that is also probably biased on the basis of hardware occupancy. Therefore, issuing a FMA instruction, for example, across say 30 of the 36 active CUs will consume a given (known) amount of electrical power. Therefore, if the system being aware of the power profile of all executed instructions across all hardware threads currently in flight, that same system will be able to deterministically adjust clocks to keep within the target power consumption threshold.

That’s how I understood what Cerny explained in his talk.


BC doesn't use PS5 full power.
AC in BC is probably using original Pro clocks too.

Sony doesn't have a mid place like Series X (Gen9aware)... or you are a BC game (the three BC modes doesn't allow access to full PS5 power) or you are a full PS5 game.

This is true, but only for unpatched PS4 games where as far as the application is concerned, it thinks it’s running on a PS4.

If you patch a game to be aware it’s running on a PS5, it will have access to PS5’s full hardware resources.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I starting to think Richard isn't as technical as he makes it out to be.
In his interview with Mark, he was told how it works.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive • Eurogamer.net

7rIAX8b.png

But he just acts dumb and refuse to believe how powerful the PS5 is.
yep. its so ridiculous. Maybe he knows something we dont, but right now it makes no sense to keep repeating this nonsense. Especially in the case of Ghost Of Tsushima which isnt taxing the CPU at all.

What's more curious to me is the minimum framerate on both consoles in the photo mode. It's a great test. The Pro goes all the way down to 20 while the PS5 dips to 40. I wish he had explored that a bit more because that would give us a true indication of just how much power is available to games in BC mode.
 
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