It's not just int the Control RT benchmatk that the XSX is besting the PS5. I do agree however that Ms customesrs probably didn't buy a console to play it in photo mode. They should expect the power advantage long touted by MS to become more regularly perceptible in next gen only multiplat games, once everyone is familiar with the tools.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
It’s minuscule and if that’s the reasoning you have to justify your purchase, then lol
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MasterCornholio
Member
That's something we a do and it depends on what we are looking at. Truth hurts and that's people's reaction to what they are seeing. I've seen almost everyone do this even myself and you.
ethomaz
Banned
In DMC V is barely 5% difference... not exactly 10-20%.
10-20% is the advantage of the 120fps mode for PS5.
I corrected him.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
kyliethicc
Member
Tell me, how does one PLAY a game in Photo Mode?
Physiognomonics
Member
It's simple, the CPU. During cutscene and photomode the CPU is usually barely being used. When the CPU is being used during gameplay others factors (like latency) are also very important. And we know Sony have done plenty of customizations (we don't know yet all the details) to reduce overall latency.
I agree, in DMC5 the XSX was often beating the PS5 by 2 to 10% in the 60fps modes, but more often in the cutscenes as it was much harder to have like for like scenes during gameplay. In gameplay the performance was often very similar. But in the 120hz mode the PS5 was actually beating XSX because the Xbox game was heavily dropping in the 60s in that mode.
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iamvin22
Industry Verified
comes down to their tools, dev support, ICE team, and the fact they don't rely on 3rd party engines. their dev support is amazing when compared to others
MasterCornholio
Member
1CCX Vs 2CCX is the only thing that I can think of. Without a die shot we really can't confirm if it's true or not.
ethomaz
Banned
Just remember even the exactly same CPU runs better on PS4 with lower clock than Xbox One.
DirectX API even after all the optimizations in DX12 is still a heavy CPU overhead API.
That is way abstraction layers works... you have a single binary that works in all types of hardware and to archive that there is a lot of conditions decisions for each hardware specific... all these “ifs” are CPU processing.... each GPU call has them and games do several hundred of GPU calls per second... all them doing these CPU specific processing to decide the best code path for that hardware.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Pretty much the backwards compatibility curse. Microsoft API does wonders for BC but at the expense of performance. Also why the GDK works with a wide variety of systems (XSX, XSS and PC).
assurdum
Banned
“Smashing” come on Bro_Hem...
They sold for months to the people ps5 couldn't keep the series X pace in multiplat, there would have been always a difference, in that sense it's surely "smashing" . Hear any sort of excuse because it didn't happened, it's surely "academic".
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assurdum
Banned
The Control RT "benchmark" is tested in a static scene. It's surely a curious stuff but Christ hearing series X could handle 60 FPS with raytracing and the developers have to deliver in this state just because they need to release the game as faster as possible, it's really embarrassing. Fine, let's take as valid the series X cans run at steady 60 FPS Control in an empty corridor when nothing happens (which is not even true). It is already stated dips to 33 FPS are commons when the action is chaotic. What's the point to lock to 60 FPS with such premises? Did they even forgot already FPS it's more problematic on Xbox console? Leadbetter should use a bit better his brain before claim such absurdity.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Control is an interesting case when it tries to do everything, but do we really need all raytracing now? If this is only software-based GI, only RT reflections are needed for full realism:
Control isn't using Geometry Engines and many other performance-efficient tools, nor expecting much from a small studio. Insomniac managed 1600-1080p with RT reflections at 60fps, many particles going around, and still with great city density. This is a muddy phase into this great generation, Death Stranding would've been shockingly realistic if made around PS5 from the ground up.
Control isn't using Geometry Engines and many other performance-efficient tools, nor expecting much from a small studio. Insomniac managed 1600-1080p with RT reflections at 60fps, many particles going around, and still with great city density. This is a muddy phase into this great generation, Death Stranding would've been shockingly realistic if made around PS5 from the ground up.
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Lysandros
Member
I am sure Alex can find a way for it, he is a magician.
Physiognomonics
Member
Yes of course that should be enough to explain most of PS5 advantages here during gameplay. We know this from PC benchmarks. There are actually others ways to reduce system latency but unfortunately without more details about their hardware we can only guess.
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Bear with me I'll look for it. It was either Matt Hargett or the other Matt and backed up by MLiD heard from devs about 6 months ago, it was in a talk in regards to how 'balanced' the PS5 is opposed to the XSX (this always gets debated every gen lol). If anyone else here can find a link that would be appreciated
As far as I can remember the gist of it was the bandwidth to the APU was sufficient to feed both CPU an GPU without hitting contentions, due to the efficient design of the caches ie CPU unified L3 and GPU cache scrubbers etc they minimise going to main memory cos it's very expensive on clock cycles
Remember that CPU (and DMA's) uses a fraction of the bandwidth of the GPU needs. Rough example the GPU can run efficiently with 400GB/s and the rest of the system has just over 40GB/s, keep that balance without hiccups then won't tripup over each other. The Tempest engine can be the wild card though
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Well, considering it’s the “weaker machine” also pUnChInG aBoVe iTs wEiGhT, that’s pretty damned smashing for the wascally wabbit.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Suddenly they forgot that PS5 beats XSX in Graphics and Performance modes, actual gameplay, but then photo mode is still the benchmark! They need to please their "sponsors".
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
If you can’t win in a straight up gameplay environment where it actually counts, formulate a controlled test to support your narrative.
It’s what dictators do, after all.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yup, and while doing that people with actual "eyes" noticed the lower RT implementation and graphics settings on XSX vs PS5 from the very video they posted.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Well, considering it’s the “weaker machine” also pUnChInG aBoVe iTs wEiGhT, that’s pretty damned smashing for the wascally wabbit.
Talking about smashing.
A lot of people were wrecked with the underpowered PS5 theories.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I ain’t seen shit!Yup, and while doing that people with actual "eyes" notices the lower RT implementation and graphics settings in XSX vs PS5 from the very video they posted.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yeah the character models overall are below average in Control. Overall, I think it's a wonderful studio if Sony or Microsoft decide to acquire. Control is a wonderful game, short but wonderful. Beaten the game yesterday and starting DLC's as it seems, I give it a solid 9/10.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I ain’t seen shit!
Yeah Alex when asked about it he literally said people are imagining things. lol
MistBreeze
Member
digital foundry is like trying hard to prove xbox series x is stronger than ps5
why they feel the urge to prove that ??
are they suspecting the opposite ?? and trying to convince people otherwise by using these wired tests??
we already know xbox series x is the stronger machine by paper specs
but the real question is ... is it the better machine??
why they feel the urge to prove that ??
are they suspecting the opposite ?? and trying to convince people otherwise by using these wired tests??
we already know xbox series x is the stronger machine by paper specs
but the real question is ... is it the better machine??
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
The hubris on this dude.Yeah Alex when asked about it he literally said people are imagining things. lol
Superayate
Member
I'm clearly not a GPU expert so I can just agree for the RT part. I know that's in reality, XsX can't reach most the time his raw advantage and we will obtain similar results on PS5. I think that's the same thing we have for the compute part. For GPU cache part, I totally agree with you, I think that the PS5 has a good advantage at this level.
For the memory aspect, I disagree about the XsX split memory. I'll try to fastly explain why (I said that when I will have more time, I will share past experiences I had with many memory configuration, splitted one between them). In reality, you need to not watch the bandwidth has separated, and consider that you have 560 GB/s "max" bandwidth for the whole memory subsystem. The thing is simply that you have in your pool (for the six 2GB chip) half adresses only dedicated to fast pool (+ the four 1 GB chip, to be used by the most demanding component, the GPU for example) and the other half for the slow pool (for the other components that request less bandwidth and "smaller" datas). It's totally conceptual.
We can take the example where the fast pool is dedicated to the GPU and slow pool for the other components. When the CPU access to the memory banks, it will allocate/use the channels exactly in the same way that is the case on PS5. The difference is that on PS5, 8 channels can burst the data whereas on Series X, it will be limited to 6. On Series X, when the GPU needs to access a "big" data, it can use all the channels to burst data from the fast pool in one transaction (at 560GB/s), and then if the CPU for example need to read a data, it can use max 6 channels to burst data from the slow pool immediately afterwards (at 336GB/s). On PS5 these two steps are done with the same 448GB/s bandwidth. In the two cases, the more the CPU access to the ram, the more it reduces the bandwidth allocated for the GPU, but it will also reduce the OVERALL bandwidth on Series X. That's the only difference between the PS5 and the XsX (in addition to the dedicated pools 10GB + 6BG). But we know that the GPU is clearly the only part that can really use/saturate the memory bandwidth. So the overall bandwidth on Series X won't be too much reduced (I have really simplified my explanation).
I can add that two flaws are directly possible with this memory configuration (non uniform). A software/game can be bottlenecked by the 6 GB slow pool, in this case that's simply that the ressources are not distributed as it need to be between the two pools. That's the main problem we can encounter with this configuration, where the devs will have extra-work to mitigate that and where we need good tools (yes I know, a forbidden word
). The second problem could simply appear when the datas quantity that require high bandwidth (>> 336GB/s) will exceed 10GB. In this case, I think that "technology" as sampler feedback streaming could help to reduce the quantity of datas stored in the memory (if I'm not wrong).For me, as I said the splitted memory is clearly not a really big problem. But I can be wrong and we will see.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Many a dev and even Cerny himself tried to tell them.Talking about smashing.
A lot of people were wrecked with the underpowered PS5 theories.
“Reign in your delusions of grandeur.”
assurdum
Banned
I suspect you look to the bandwidth usage just to the contention side but you don't consider how could affect the processing speed in the whole hardware. I'm not an expert but I use the simple logic. Bandwidth is unified physically, so if you splitted virtually an unified bus, the GPU has to wait the CPU uses and viceversa if they have to work separately. An unified environment can't use two separate speeds at the same time and can't have a minimal impact such approach. There will be surely a conflict when CPU and GPU are involved in the bandwidth in the same instant. I'm quite convinced AC Valhalla, Control and Hitman 3 FPS issues are caused by it.I'm clearly not a GPU expert so I can just agree for the RT part. I know that's in reality, XsX can't reach most the time his raw advantage and we will obtain similar results on PS5. I think that's the same thing we have for the compute part. For GPU cache part, I totally agree with you, I think that the PS5 has a good advantage at this level.
For the memory aspect, I disagree about the XsX split memory. I'll try to fastly explain why (I said that when I will have more time, I will share past experiences I had with many memory configuration, splitted one between them). In reality, you need to not watch the bandwidth has separated, and consider that you have 560 GB/s "max" bandwidth for the whole memory subsystem. The thing is simply that you have in your pool (for the six 2GB chip) half adresses only dedicated to fast pool (+ the four 1 GB chip, to be used by the most demanding component, the GPU for example) and the other half for the slow pool (for the other components that request less bandwidth and "smaller" datas). It's totally conceptual.
We can take the example where the fast pool is dedicated to the GPU and slow pool for the other components. When the CPU access to the memory banks, it will allocate/use the channels exactly in the same way that is the case on PS5. The difference is that on PS5, 8 channels can burst the data whereas on Series X, it will be limited to 6. On Series X, when the GPU needs to access a "big" data, it can use all the channels to burst data from the fast pool in one transaction (at 560GB/s), and then if the CPU for example need to read a data, it can use max 6 channels to burst data from the slow pool immediately afterwards (at 336GB/s). On PS5 these two steps are done with the same 448GB/s bandwidth. In the two cases, the more the CPU access to the ram, the more it reduces the bandwidth allocated for the GPU, but it will also reduce the OVERALL bandwidth on Series X. That's the only difference between the PS5 and the XsX (in addition to the dedicated pools 10GB + 6BG). But we know that the GPU is clearly the only part that can really use/saturate the memory bandwidth. So the overall bandwidth on Series X won't be too much reduced.
I can add that two flaws are directly possible with this memory configuration (non uniform). A software/game can be bottlenecked by the 6 GB slow pool, in this case that's simply that the ressources are not distributed as it need to be between the two pools. That's the main problem we can encounter with this configuration, where the devs will have extra-work to mitigate that and where we need good tools (yes I know, a forbidden word
For me, as I said the splitted memory is not a really big problem. But I can be wrong and we will see.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Control is 2019 game, tho. It's best for time being, at least in my opinion. But it's not really next-gen in a sense of what APIs are available with release of the new GPUs/DX Ultimate, etc. For that we need to wait a little : )Control is an interesting case when it tries to do everything, but do we really need all raytracing now? If this is only software-based GI, only RT reflections are needed for full realism:
Control isn't using Geometry Engines and many other performance-efficient tools, nor expecting much from a small studio. Insomniac managed 1600-1080p with RT reflections, many particles going around, and still with great city density. This is a muddy phase into this great generation, Death Stranding would've been shockingly realistic if made around PS5 from the ground up.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Not best, I still think Death Stranding is the best looking game. Overall Control is like 8-9 out of 10 in terms of graphics. GOW Ragnarok gonna blow everything in terms of graphics and gameplay, can't for that GOTY game.
Superayate
Member
You will encounter exactly the same problem on PS5 than you have on XsX. When you say "the GPU has to wait the CPU load and viceversa if they have to work separately", that's the case with unified memory. The fact that the memory pool is splitted does not change that. Also, there is not separate "speed", the access to each memory bank is done using the same 2*16 bits channel running at the same datarate. The issue you are speaking about will exactly be the same on PS5 and XsX, and the memory controller will manage that exactly in the same way. Simply that on XsX, due to slower bandwidth for the CPU, it will reduce the overall bandwidth.
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assurdum
Banned
Absolutely no, on ps5 you can't have such problems. That's data contention what you are talking about, not processing (coherent/uniformed) data speed. Why you don't see the difference between the 2 arguments?
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sircaw
Banned
Damn i really need new glasses, not only are so many effects missing, i thought that was an upsidedown stuffed chicken in a pot, in the top pictures on her right.Yeah Alex when asked about it he literally said people are imagining things. lol
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Well then, maybe you should apply to MS engineering since you know oh so much about hardware design.
Also, smashing? Really?
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
I really like that art style and stuff, so that might be big contributor, I like brutalism I guess. Probably commie PTSD
It is strange that they are so determined to find the superiority of XSX in any way they can, but they haven't spent anytime investigating how PS5 is performing equal or even better in many cases, that to me is the real 'story' of this generation so far. Alex has this need to prove that GPU size heirarchy is all that matters despite all the other evidence we've seen. He has no answer as to why those other games performed better on PS5 and hasn't bothered to find one, other than some vague thing about 'tools'. Instead he keeps trying to find increasingly more 'pure' benchmarks to prove that one GPU is bigger than the other, all the while ignoring the actual useful performance and any other nuances related to that.
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LiquidRex
Member
https://www.solidstatelogic.com/products/t25
Is there a link with this technology and the Tempest Engine in the PS5.
Is there a link with this technology and the Tempest Engine in the PS5.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Yeah Alex when asked about it he literally said people are imagining things. lol
assurdum
Banned
? Yeah raytracing doesn't works for overlay write. But isn't it exactly an issue.
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Great Hair
Banned
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Ok, some of his comments cracked me up.
“Fanboys don’t even work this hard for the dub.”
Facts.
FrankWza
Member
It’s deeper than that. It’s just really hard for them not to have the most powerful console by a long shot. It’s not enough for it to be on paper and theoretical. So this “benchmark “ , even though it’s technically still on paper and still theoretical, is “proof”Ok, some of his comments cracked me up.
“Fanboys don’t even work this hard for the dub.”
Facts.
I don’t think anyone really doubted the advantage. The systems being this close is an absolutely crushing outcome.
DonkeyKong
Member
No surprise , we actually seem to like Xbox here in the UK , i suspect the S/X will do well here
onesvenus
Member
The Xbox guy at hot chips said that's the biggest missconception regarding DX. When compiling to Xbox, all that abstraction layer is removed so all those "ifs" as you say, shouldn't be there.
Superayate
Member
To be honest, I don't see your point.
in you first message, you wrote: "the GPU has to wait the CPU uses and viceversa if they have to work separately". I simply said that's exactly the same on PS5 and XsX, because of interleaved datas. CPU, GPU or other parts of the system are managed in a queue with priority orders to access to the memory.
"An unified environment can't use two separate speeds at the same time and can't have a minimal impact such approach. There will be surely a conflict when CPU and GPU are involved in the bandwidth in the same instant". Same, I don't see your point here, why separate speed ?? why would there be a conflict because of data read with different bandwidth?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yep, and your last sentence is what it ultimately comes down to. Embarrassing the lengths they are going with this. All while playing victims in the great console war they help fuel.
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