mejin
Member
It is not only on this forum, but he knows nothing about Sony.
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Dabaus
Banned
Im to the point where if Microsoft buys a company then theye pretty much dead to me. Skyrim 2 or whatever is the only thing ill be salty about if its exclusive to xbox but ill live without it.
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carloseduardocd
Member
DarkMage619
$MSFT
Seems like 2nd party is a more precise way to describe who owns the development studio making a game. There is a difference between owning the IP and owning the development studio. Something like Super Lucky's Tale would be considered 1st party because it was published by MS but of course that game is on Switch and PlayStation too and I don't believe MS owns the IP. How would Minecraft and Minecraft Dungeons be classified; 1st party? 3rd? MS owns the IP and published the game yet its on multiple platforms. It can get pretty confusing if you break it down to just 'if at platform owner publishes the game its 1st party'. For Insomniac it's moot of course seeing how they are wholly owned by Sony today; anything they do specially is 1st party.Before Insomniac was bought by Sony, here's what they had to say (during Spider-Man development.)
Three Jackdaws
Banned
Just a thread of LeviathanGamer2 schooling everyones beloved fake developer Kirby0Louise and some other dude.
Three Jackdaws
Banned
Lmao literally shared it at the same time.
NeoGaf collective consciousness at work.
kyliethicc
Member
Minecraft is a 1st party game on Xbox and a 3rd party game on PlayStation and Nintendo.
Its quite simple.
1st party game means the publisher of the game also makes the hardware.
3rd party game means the publisher of the game does not.
1st party dev means the owner of the dev also makes the hardware.
3rd party dev means the owner of the dev does not.
assurdum
Banned
Lol good luck leviathan
Who is this? One of those faces that look like a couple of people
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
carloseduardocd
Member
It's something like a professional with experience in processor design talking with enthusiasts. Of course he could be wrong in some points. He is not a God. But it's hard man. He's tough.
Like 20 years now, isn't it?
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Amplification Shaders (DX12U) == Task Shaders (NVidia) == Surface Shaders (AMD)
While...
Mesh Shaders == Primitive Shaders
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assurdum
Banned
I mean, I haven't absolutely the same level of knowledge of leviathan, I'm just an enthusiast but more or less I understood the logic behind the development. I already suspected mesh shaders doesn't required magically hardware architecture engineering but still people fallen again in the MS propaganda. Jeez even VRS was on some PS4 engine, really someone here is convinced everything can be replicated just via hardware? Though there is a lot of confusion about mesh shaders in RDNA2 and what really is, but seems really absurd argue GE on ps5 can't use any mesh shaders because just "full RDNA2 does it".
It's something like a professional with experience in processor design talking with enthusiasts. Of course he could be wrong in some points. He is not a God. But it's hard man. He's tough.
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MasterCornholio
Member
When Cerny said the Geometry Engine was fully programmable I always wondered what that meant. Maybe since it's fully programmable it's possible to use it for VRS?
I understand the benefits of having dedicated hardware. Like for example the decompressor in the PS5 frees the CPU of decompression work. But just because you don't have dedicated hardware doesn't mean you can't use other things to compete a task. On PCs decompression is done via the CPU instead of a hardware decompressor for example.
carloseduardocd
Member
Yep, i'm enthusiast too. I worked 10~15 years developing software, but not for games industry. No program shaders
Games hardware and software are just hobby for me. And i appreciate when the real professionals like LeviathanGamer2 and Cherno shares some of their experience to us.
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DarkMage619
$MSFT
So Sackboy A Big Adventure is a 3rd party developed 1st party published game? And that is easier that just saying its a 2nd party game? It just seems like calling it 2nd party indicating that the IP is owned by the platform owner even if they didn't develop the game is easier. Publishing is assumed by both 1st and 2nd party titles to be by the platform owner. I never thought 2nd party was an unnecessary term especially when dealing with the specifics of who developed the title.
assurdum
Banned
But GE is a dedicated hardware for stuff as VRS and mesh shaders.I guess the ps5 GE gives the opportunity to place you before processes as vrs and mesh shaders, and define them in a better way. A very approximative explanation eh but that's why probably Cerny never used word as vrs or mesh shaders in his panels.
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kyliethicc
Member
Sackboy: A Big Adventure is a 1st party PlayStation game. It was developed by Sumo Digital, an independent game developer.
If you wanna call the game/dev 2nd party, go ahead.
Ass of Can Whooping
Banned
1st party, 2nd party 3rd party are about ownership.
2nd party is only applicable when ownership isn't black and white, as was the case during the Nintendo/Rare days. It's a redundant term outside of those exceptions.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
No, you just call it a First Party Game. Publisher dictates, not the contracted development house.
They literally own the Sackboy IP. It really isn't that hard.
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MasterCornholio
Member
I guess what Metro proves is that VRS is possible on the PS5. What developers use to do it with I have no idea. Maybe they are using the GE or something else but it is indeed possible.
Anyways the main take behind this is that VRS is used to help save performance. Which is what VRS will do on the PS5. How much performance is saved is the real question.
assurdum
Banned
VRS was possible even on PS4...
MasterCornholio
Member
It's why I never understood people saying the PS5 isn't capable of it.
assurdum
Banned
Oh it's not that tough to understand
MasterCornholio
Member
Oh it's not that tough to understand
Some people were acting like games would use it on tbe XSX and not the PS5 but then we have the Metro developers using it on both. I'm not saying that having it function through dedicated hardware isn't important but you can still use other hardware for it. Maybe VRS will save more performance on the XSX than the PS5 but it will save performance on both.
Loxus
Member
This makes me wonder about RDNA 2.
Has anyone seen an actual die shot of a RDNA 2 GPU?
I've searched and can't find any.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Loxus
Member
That looks more like a render.I've been seeing this posted around.
I meant more like this.
This is Navi 14 btw.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Why do you keep linking me to this guy?
"Random twitter guy" being a source of info here is really tiring lol
Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
Xbox Series S RAM Not an Issue, But GPU Performance Presents Challenges for Future Titles – 4A Games
Xbox Series S RAM Not an Issue, But GPU Performance Presents Challenges for Future Titles - 4A Games
4A Games CTO Oleksandr Shyshkovtsov doesn't believe the Xbox Series S RAM is an issue, but the console's GPU performance could be challenging
wccftech.com
MasterCornholio
Member
That looks more like a render.
I meant more like this.
This is Navi 14 btw.
I don't know about that but I have seen this.
The layout does seem similar to me.
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carloseduardocd
Member
He's not random twitter guy. I know him a bit.
But there's some "Random neogaf guys" who claims some knowledge.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Can you explain what you are even trying to link to?
Is this still the "mesh shaders are just software and could be on RDNA 1" stuff?
I don't understand why I'm supposed to trust this 1,000 follower random twitter user over MS/AMD.
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Loxus
Member
Compared to RDNA 1, it does look more like RDNA 2.I don't know about that but I have seen this.
The layout does seem similar to me.
Edit: L2 Cache is next to the Command Processor like in RDNA 2.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Compared to RDNA 1, it does look more like RDNA 2.
The XSX and XSS GPUs are the only ones that look a bit odd to me. Can't really match them up with either. It appears that Microbot moved the components around for some reason.
Mr Moose
Member
Justin Timberlake, head of Xbox research and development, he owns the patent for Microsofts VRR solution.
Only one of those things is true.
DJ12
Member
From what I watched, pretty stupid to have performance mode @1080p60 when quality mode barely drops below 60 anyway.
Microsoft patented their implementation of how VRS is processed through Direct X, one of the many reasons why clowns in this thread claimed PS5 wouldn't support it. Just go back a few thousand pages for the lols.
AMD have their own patented VRS solution, I also believe Sony has their own too.
So, there's at least 2 VRS implementations available to Sony.
FrankWza
Member
I thought he was the dk from Tokyo drift of America
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DarkMage619
$MSFT
I also noted that publishing alone does not dictate ownership of the IP. My only point is 2nd party seems more precise than simply everything that a platform owner publishes is 1st party which isn't true.
DaGwaphics
Member
AMD has a few patents regarding their technique as does nVidia for touring. Maybe you could start researching there.
Both nVidia and AMD list only their latest GPUs (dating back to turing for nVidia) as being compatible, so, seems like there would be some kind of HW change.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Ok?
The post I was responding to said they had the term trademarked. Nobody has the term trademarked, it's a generic term used by all the tech companies with an implementation (software, hardware.)
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Lysandros
Member
Thanks, i'll try..AMD has a few patents regarding their technique as does nVidia for touring. Maybe you could start researching there.
Both nVidia and AMD list only their latest GPUs (dating back to turing for nVidia) as being compatible, so, seems like there would be some kind of HW change.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
When I was searching the other day, all I could really find was the MS Hot Chips slide that said VRS added a "tiny area cost" for a big perf boost:
I would assume that's implying a small unit of some sort on the die.
Other than that, AMD describes it as VRS supported "in hardware" here:
Next-Generation Gaming with AMD RDNA 2 and DirectX 12 Ultimate
Earlier this year we told you that in partnership with Microsoft we will provide full support for DirectX 12 Ultimate in the AMD RDNA 2 gaming architecture. Now with AMD Radeon RX 6000 Series graphics cards powered by AMD RDNA 2, our support for Microsoft’s latest gaming API enables features...
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
This is true as well, usually when it's already 3rd party more often than not. Sekiro as a recent example.
carloseduardocd
Member
I didn't saw your sources showing the specific Mesh Shaders hardware modifications. Can you show to us?
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Microsoft calls it out a "Mesh Shading Geometry Engine" on their GPU block diagram:
So this is an advancement of the GE from RDNA 1 most likely.
The assumption is Sony's custom GE is doing something similar.. but it's not AMD's Mesh Shader hardware implementation.
And nVidia uses a combo of what they Task Shader Unit and Mesh Shader Unit:
Introduction to Turing Mesh Shaders | NVIDIA Technical Blog
Turing introduces a new programmable geometric shading pipeline, mesh shaders,, enabling threads to cooperatively generate compact meshes on the chip.
developer.nvidia.com
But either way.. you never answered any of my questions the other day. You really think AMD of all companies is going to develop a software solution for something that nVidia does in hardware, and then hide it behind RNDA 2, locking out RDNA 1 cards?
Sounds like the least AMD thing ever.
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carloseduardocd
Member
Possible, but not confirmed. You're just supposing from your "random thoughts".
AMD is developing their super resolution for RDNA 2. Where are the Tensor Cores? There's no accelerated hardware, only shaders. Why you assume they're made hardware modifications for Mesh Shaders? More random thoughts coming for you.
So, you called LeviathanGamer2 random maybe because you don't have technical knowledge to argue with his tweets. It's your chance to shine.
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Lysandros
Member
Thanks for this, looks to be a small hardware component indeed. Maybe this could be located on XSX die and compared to PS5's to see if Sony's machine truly lacks it. But it must be a difficult task i guess, especially if it's too tiny or if we don't have an idea about the area where it is implemented.When I was searching the other day, all I could really find was the MS Hot Chips slide that said VRS added a "tiny area cost" for a big perf boost:
I would assume that's implying a small unit of some sort on the die.
Other than that, AMD describes it as VRS supported "in hardware" here:
Next-Generation Gaming with AMD RDNA 2 and DirectX 12 Ultimate
Earlier this year we told you that in partnership with Microsoft we will provide full support for DirectX 12 Ultimate in the AMD RDNA 2 gaming architecture. Now with AMD Radeon RX 6000 Series graphics cards powered by AMD RDNA 2, our support for Microsoft’s latest gaming API enables features...community.amd.com
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