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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Fafalada

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Now my original statement that lead to all this was only this: I'm unclear at how much more efficient SFS is than PRT because I haven't been able to find any comparisons.
Assuming same block-size and compression used, the I/O difference would be marginal at most. The main trade-off is some extra compute costs for visibility determination and manual handling of filtering edge-cases in shaders.

Thanks for the other info but I do find this a rather odd statement... either way I think you got my point. The level of detail possible is certainly limited by RAM, considering on the PS5 they are likely using 20 times the amount of RAM in the PS3 just to render what is on screen lol
The amount of 'possible' visible detail changes, so yes, RAM is a factor, but only up to a point. As long as you have more Ram than what can possibly be visible in a given frame (which has a hard limit set by screen resolution * unique texels per sample ), you're all set.

Below is a contrived example, but it illustrates the point better than theory:
The SFS demo shows around 300-500MB in use after their visibility determination. That's at 4k, with a number of textures per pixel (say 8? - fairly standard in PS4 gen).
Back on PS3, Rage was at 720P, with a single texture. So 32x less memory per frame in use - in this example that'd be ~10-15MB.
Proportionally % of memory used is about the same on both machines, and not a limiting factor on either.

You might be asking - what if Rage used multiple textures per-sample? Yes that would use more memory - but I/O would become a bottleneck far sooner than memory (drives in that era were in the 10-20MB/s range).

Curious how the SF partial reading of textures stacks with the on disk compression. How do you get part texture from a compressed file?
Do you need to decompress, read the small portion somewhere along the i/o chain and then send it onto ram?
No - you store your data in blocks that can be fetched separately. Eg. if the approach is to load on texture-page boundary (say, 64KB or so) your textures would be stored as series of compressed 64KB blocks.
Above isn't something that's new to this gen - block-storage has benefits that translated well all the way back to PS2 era for load-speed efficiencies etc. The idea of treating assets as 'files' and compressing them individually was never particularly optimal aside for what small size reduction it yields.
 
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Boglin

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Assuming same block-size and compression used, the I/O difference would be marginal at most. The main trade-off is some extra compute costs for visibility determination and manual handling of filtering edge-cases in shaders.


The amount of 'possible' visible detail changes, so yes, RAM is a factor, but only up to a point. As long as you have more Ram than what can possibly be visible in a given frame (which has a hard limit set by screen resolution * unique texels per sample ), you're all set.

Below is a contrived example, but it illustrates the point better than theory:
The SFS demo shows around 300-500MB in use after their visibility determination. That's at 4k, with a number of textures per pixel (say 8? - fairly standard in PS4 gen).
Back on PS3, Rage was at 720P, with a single texture. So 32x less memory per frame in use - in this example that'd be ~10-15MB.
Proportionally % of memory used is about the same on both machines, and not a limiting factor on either.

You might be asking - what if Rage used multiple textures per-sample? Yes that would use more memory - but I/O would become a bottleneck far sooner than memory (drives in that era were in the 10-20MB/s range).


No - you store your data in blocks that can be fetched separately. Eg. if the approach is to load on texture-page boundary (say, 64KB or so) your textures would be stored as series of compressed 64KB blocks.
Above isn't something that's new to this gen - block-storage has benefits that translated well all the way back to PS2 era for load-speed efficiencies etc. The idea of treating assets as 'files' and compressing them individually was never particularly optimal aside for what small size reduction it yields.
I love when you post stuff
 

Zadom

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This constant marketing for the dualsense is getting to be very annoying. I am sure that we experienced the best that the controller will ever have to offer with Astro's playroom and thats about it. They are going to date their game by making it cross-gen but I still hope it turns out good.


If he is confident enough to release all of these games right now I am sure they have a lot of other amazing games in works for the future. Also you can't underestimate the games being released by third party studios this year. Maybe MS might surprise us and release a good game also.
The marketing of the dual sense will continue until Xbox can have something similar. Besides exclusive games, it’s the biggest differentiator this gen.
 

Shmunter

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….

No - you store your data in blocks that can be fetched separately. Eg. if the approach is to load on texture-page boundary (say, 64KB or so) your textures would be stored as series of compressed 64KB blocks.
Above isn't something that's new to this gen - block-storage has benefits that translated well all the way back to PS2 era for load-speed efficiencies etc. The idea of treating assets as 'files' and compressing them individually was never particularly optimal aside for what small size reduction it yields.

Got ya, makes sense. Had trouble conceptualising it otherwise.
 
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Wait you think DS implementation on Astro is the best it will ever be and no other first-party studio will find new and better ways to use it to its maximum potential? Seriously dude this is a bad take, what ND or SSM can do with DS both on haptics and adaptive triggers is most likely blow our minds. Even now Returnal uses adaptive trigger for Alternative Fire and the haptics are really making it immersive; it's like a whole another controller on this game alone and it's not stopping there just a month later R&C will make use of both these features.

Are you tired of marketing cause you don't have DS and PS5 or something cause only someone still waiting on some stock could be annoyed by this...
I have a PS5 and Series X, I am just not drinking the Sony kool aid like the rest of you.

“You will feel like your actually in the grass with the dual sense” .... 😆 like serious???

Just give me real PS5 game and cut the crap... 😆

All jokes a side, the dual sense is a great controller but I just think it’s being over marketed. Like his repose to Horizon FW being a cross gen game was “ it’s alright if it’s cross gen because the dual sense will make it a next gen game” and that’s a BS statement imo.
 
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NeroDaGod

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“You will feel like your actually in the grass with the dual sense” .... 😆 like serious???
Totally possible considering that on Astro’s Play Room you could feel the variety of environments he’d be walking on including sand, metal, and wood. It might seem like a pointless thing to you but it all adds to the immersion. If you don’t like it that’s on you, but stop downplaying it’s impact on gaming it makes you look really silly.
 

Dibils2k

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Totally possible considering that on Astro’s Play Room you could feel the variety of environments he’d be walking on including sand, metal, and wood. It might seem like a pointless thing to you but it all adds to the immersion. If you don’t like it that’s on you, but stop downplaying it’s impact on gaming it makes you look really silly.
lets be honest... you dont "feel it", you just feel something different for each
 

Mr Moose

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Didn't feel like sand, but the metal and stuff did for me, the audio from the controller helps the immersion too with the little *ting ting ting*s.
Anyway in other news, Subnautica PS5 is free if you got the PS4 version a few weeks back, smaller file size, too.
3.76 v 4.21GB.
 
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lets be honest... you dont "feel it", you just feel something different for each

I think that's the point of Haptics. With traditional rumble everything would have the same feel but with different intensities. With Haptics the feel of it is alot more precise which allows to to get a lot closer. Like trying to simulate rain with rumble in comparison to doing it with Haptics. Precision is the key to Haptics.

It's the next step in vibration technology.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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About all the stupid comments lately about data streaming on PS5 being "old":

Old gens (crossgen as well) is like buying your "level" and putting it in the trunk (RAM), so you must only take tiny things from each thing you want (low quality/LOD) to avoid going to the supermarket (SSD/HDD) "loading screen/corridor/elevator" and buy new stuff to have them in the trunk "RAM".

PS5 is like having the supermarket on wheels (SSD) that you ask for anything it gets in and out of your trunk near instantly without filling it with unwanted stuff "just in case".





So to those making stupid comments, please try to force yourself to at least watch from the timestamp for only ~1min and learn something:

 
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DarkMage619

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I think that's the point of Haptics. With traditional rumble everything would have the same feel but with different intensities. With Haptics the feel of it is alot more precise which allows to to get a lot closer. Like trying to simulate rain with rumble in comparison to doing it with Haptics. Precision is the key to Haptics.

It's the next step in vibration technology.
As Moose said the speaker in the controller did more to sell the effect than just the haptics. No doubt the dual sense is a far better controller than the dual shock for sure.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I think that's the point of Haptics. With traditional rumble everything would have the same feel but with different intensities. With Haptics the feel of it is alot more precise which allows to to get a lot closer. Like trying to simulate rain with rumble in comparison to doing it with Haptics. Precision is the key to Haptics.

It's the next step in vibration technology.

It's precise because it's sound-based. You don't need to be an expert to translate audio to haptics, and yet it can't be replicated with traditional rumble:



And because the DualSense has a dedicated RealTek audio chip it has superior audio to DualShock 4 or Xbox controller/Elite through the 3.5 jack aligned with better Bluetooth.



That's why the on-board mic sounds so good as well if you don't have a headset and use it, and that's why the speaker has been drastically improved. Simply put there is no controller as advanced as DualSense from $60 DS4/Battery-less Xbox controller up to the $180 (or $300-400+) Elite controller.
 
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Rea

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As Moose said the speaker in the controller did more to sell the effect than just the haptics. No doubt the dual sense is a far better controller than the dual shock for sure.
You need to play Returnal, when doing the teleport particles shit, you can literally feels the particles inside your hands. Also when doing short teleport, you will feel like your hands are being pulled into the vortex. That's some next gen cool shits, any others controllers, out in the market as of today, can't do those shits.
 

Riky

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It's precise because it's sound-based. You don't need to be an expert to translate audio to haptics, and yet it can't be replicated with traditional rumble:



And because the DualSense has a dedicated RealTek audio chip it has superior audio to DualShock 4 or Xbox controller/Elite through the 3.5 jack aligned with better Bluetooth.



That's why the on-board mic sounds so good as well if you don't have a headset and use it, and that's why the speaker has been drastically improved. Simply put there is no controller as advanced as DualSense from $60 DS4/Battery-less Xbox controller up to the $300-400+ Elite controller.

The Elite controller is not $300-$400 🤣
 

reksveks

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Isn't this Microsoft's official page?



Certain brands have special pages that are effectively store fronts and other brands don't. Certain brands have the power to kick off all non-official sellers (Apple) and some don't. If they don't. Amazon shows the lowest price from a (or any) store selling a new product.
 
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ethomaz

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That shit cost the same as console??!
The actual price is $179 I believe... it just the first is sold out everywhere so 3rd-parties sells the few at higher price because there are some hardcore claims that the first Elite is still better than the second one.

Edit - Fixed the price... $179 and not $199.
 
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ethomaz

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Please be sarcastic or at least deliberately obtuse. Its the v1 model that some third party retailer has stuck up for a stupid amount.
That happened because demand.... people wants that first Elite over the second.
It will slowly get these 10 units sold at that price.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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That happened because demand.... people wants that first Elite over the second.
It will slowly get these 10 units sold at that price.

Hmm, Xbox and its accessories aren't released here anyway due to the low demand. That's been the case since OG Xbox. Only some small shops bring US versions and sell them here (inflating the US sales).
 
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FrankWza

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That happened because demand.... people wants that first Elite over the second.
It will slowly get these 10 units sold at that price.
That’s risky if you don’t have the warranty that it comes with buying from authorized dealer. They had to extend the manufacturer’s warranty from just a few months to a year. They also had to refund repair costs from all the issues.
 
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ethomaz

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That’s risky if you don’t have the warranty that it comes with buying from authorized dealer. They had to extend the manufacturer’s warranty from just a few months to a year. They also had to refund repair costs from all the issues.
?

These being sold by 3rd-party has warranty.
Just like PS5 being sold by 3rd-parties has warranty too.

You don’t lose the warranty just because you brought via a 3rd-party store.

You don’t need to buy at an authorized dealer to have the product warranty.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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That’s risky if you don’t have the warranty that it comes with buying from authorized dealer. They had to extend the manufacturer’s warranty from just a few months to a year. They also had to refund repair costs from all the issues.

Yeah never heard of a warranty below 1 year before except if you're talking about food!

“To ensure your satisfaction, we're extending the warranty coverage period on Elite Series 2 controllers from 90 days to 1 year from the date of purchase.” ... The extended warranty is a welcome change from the measly 90 days, but it comes after a series of complaints from owners of the new Elite controller have emerged.''


Fucking 90 days!

Incredulous Dog GIF


Official DualSense purchases made in India will have a 12 month warranty according to the manual uploaded on Sony's own site.

 

FrankWza

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?

These being sold by 3rd-party has warranty.
Just like PS5 being sold by 3rd-parties has warranty too.

You don’t lose the warranty just because you brought via a 3rd-party store.

You don’t need to buy at an authorized dealer.
The PS5 has a warranty no matter where because the release date is still inside of 1 year. They don’t need a proof of purchase at this time. An elite controller series 1 is old enough now that you may need a proof of purchase as you could have purchased second hand over one year ago. Usually it needs to be purchased by an authorized dealer. At least in US
 
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ethomaz

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The PS5 has a warranty no matter where because the release date is still inside of 1 year. They don’t need a proof of purchase at this time. An elite controller series 1 is old enough now that you may need a proof of purchase as you could have purchased second hand over one year ago.
I’m a bit confused.
Here in Brazil all Amazon products being sold including 3rd-parties requires the fiscal cupom and the warranty is based in the date that they generated the fiscal cupom.

Unless it is second hand like you said but so it will be listed as Used or Renewed and not New. The pic he posted is New and should allow the warranty even today.

But I’m talking about US and Brasil... he is using another store, no? I’m not sure how Amazon works in India.
 
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onesvenus

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I've speculated since the first day that Nanite is doing some kind of conversion from polygon meshes to SDF and then sampling those depending on the needed resolution.
This would fit with the "No LOD authoring" narrative (which I have to say it's always missunderstood by the usual suspects as "meshes are always rendered at their max resolution") and with it only working for static geometry.

Sebastian Aaltonen, principal engineer at Unity, has just published this Twitter thread where he describes his custom renderer doing just that.
It can render 1 million SDF instances, each one created from a 1 million sculpture (that's equivalent to 1 trillion (10^12) polygons), at 60FPS on an Intel integrated GPU. It's worth noticing that he is also able to transform the geometry, making it not really static in the strict sense.

You can read it here:
 

reksveks

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That happened because demand.... people wants that first Elite over the second.
It will slowly get these 10 units sold at that price.
I am not sure why people want the first one but yeah, it's a slow burn. Also yeah, laws about warranties just varies all over the place.
 
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Foorbits

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About all the stupid comments lately about data streaming on PS5 being "old":

Old gens (crossgen as well) is like buying your "level" and putting it in the trunk (RAM), so you must only take tiny things from each thing you want (low quality/LOD) to avoid going to the supermarket (SSD/HDD) "loading screen/corridor/elevator" and buy new stuff to have them in the trunk "RAM".

PS5 is like having the supermarket on wheels (SSD) that you ask for anything it gets in and out of your trunk near instantly without filling it with unwanted stuff "just in case".





So to those making stupid comments, please try to force yourself to at least watch from the timestamp for only ~1min and learn something:

"I'll ram my packets in you at lightning speed."

 

FrankWza

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I’m a bit confused.
Here in Brazil all Amazon products being sold including 3rd-parties requires the fiscal cupom and the warranty is based in the date that they generated the fiscal cupom.

Unless it is second hand like you said but so it will be listed as Used and not New.

The pic he posted is New and allow the warranty.
It depends on the product. If the item listed on Amazon requires the seller to have permission to sell then they’re authorized and it’s a moot point. But if the item has a release date of 2019 and you file a warranty claims today for a purchase you made say 2 months ago it’s still possible that you could be lying about when you purchased. So, you would need to show proof you purchased within the last 12 months and that you purchased new and from an authorized seller.
 

ethomaz

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I am not sure why people want the first one but yeah, it's a slow burn. Also yeah, laws about warranties just varies all over the place.
Comfort? I don’t know but I already talked with gamers that prefer the Elite 1.
I never used any so I can’t tell.

There is a guy that said to me that the Elite 2 material looks more premium but it makes it hands sweat while the rubber used in Elite 1 not.

When something is in phase out of you want that thing you pay the high price.
 
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FrankWza

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Yeah never heard of a warranty below 1 year before
Yeah I wonder what the standard controller warranty was during that time? I’m assuming it was a year since the consoles ship with one and they include a 1 year warranty and having 2 different warranty periods would be strange for items that come in the same packaging. 90 days was an odd choice. Some retailers offer return periods on electronics almost as long
 
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azertydu91

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It depends on the product. If the item listed on Amazon requires the seller to have permission to sell then they’re authorized and it’s a moot point. But if the item has a release date of 2019 and you file a warranty claims today for a purchase you made say 2 months ago it’s still possible that you could be lying about when you purchased. So, you would need to show proof you purchased within the last 12 months and that you purchased new and from an authorized seller.
And even sometimes authorized sellers are a bit finicky.It's not about warranty but when I bought my current phone there was an awesome offer since sony offered you a Wh 1000 Xm2 headphone (which was like 350/380€ at the time) but it had to be bought from official sellers.
So that's what I did but bad surprise I had to send the pic of the serial number(or the transaction number I don't remember) to sony ...But on the website the transaction was said to be from another seller not authorised...I was devastated because I bought it for that reason anyway I had to modify the picture (even worse with paint that's all I had).Anyway I figured how the code worked and modified it to work.
Then it got accepted ,that's the story of how I bought a 500€ phone and had to trick a bit a code to get a 380€ headphone.

So I suspect that this authorised seller had bought the phone new from an other country and sold it back for a profit.
But I don't complain I had the phone for a 100€ cheaper and enjoyed the promotion even thought I shoudn't have since the seller was not honest.
 

thewire

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You need to play Returnal, when doing the teleport particles shit, you can literally feels the particles inside your hands. Also when doing short teleport, you will feel like your hands are being pulled into the vortex. That's some next gen cool shits, any others controllers, out in the market as of today, can't do those shits.
After anyone plays Astro playroom & returnal and STILL tries to downplay the dualsense, you know they have an agenda, it’s the next generation of vibration and needs to be the standard going forward. Can’t wait too see how it is in ps VR 2.0.
 

Riky

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Comfort? I don’t know but I already talked with gamers that prefer the Elite 1.
I never used any so I can’t tell.

There is a guy that said to me that the Elite 2 material looks more premium but it makes it hands sweat while the rubber used in Elite 1 not.

When something is in phase out of you want that thing you pay the high price.
I have both, the V2 is superior in almost every way, especially the stick tightening which is really cool.
Just looked at it again and read this:



So $450+$121 shipping wasn't enough, now I also need one-time-use AA Duracells!

The V2 has an internal battery.
 

FrankWza

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After anyone plays Astro playroom & returnal and STILL tries to downplay the dualsense, you know they have an agenda, it’s the next generation of vibration and needs to be the standard going forward. Can’t wait too see how it is in ps VR 2.0.
Each weapon reacts differently in Returnal as well. They both, dualsense and Returnal, go in the same category of needing to have been experienced to understand the praise. Those that have played and used them get it. Same thing with Returnal and Tempest.
 

Dibils2k

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Each weapon reacts differently in Returnal as well. They both, dualsense and Returnal, go in the same category of needing to have been experienced to understand the praise. Those that have played and used them get it. Same thing with Returnal and Tempest.
i feel it gets way too overhyped... genuinely did not notice any difference using weapons

Rain has been the most obvious "feel" and i would say it is done very well, everything else did not impact me at all

i like it more than rumble as it atleast has different levels and positions it can vibrate but it is nowhere near as "game changing" as people try to make out
 

Zathalus

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You need to play Returnal, when doing the teleport particles shit, you can literally feels the particles inside your hands. Also when doing short teleport, you will feel like your hands are being pulled into the vortex. That's some next gen cool shits, any others controllers, out in the market as of today, can't do those shits.
Bit hyperbolic there don't you think? I'm impressed with the haptics as well, and it is way better than the rumble that came before, but 'feeling my hands are being pulled into the vortex'? Nah. The rain I totally get though, as well as the footsteps in Control.
 

Bo_Hazem

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This would fit with the "No LOD authoring" narrative (which I have to say it's always missunderstood by the usual suspects as "meshes are always rendered at their max resolution") and with it only working for static geometry.

Nah, those misunderstandings are only on your brain, we all know that it's only one asset and the closer you get the more polygons you get out of that one which is more precise in a frame basis. You're not even close at rendering the original asset but you probably get that full 1:1 when you're like sticking your face too close to the asset.

All people understood it from day one but some suspects are creating dump narratives like "Ponies said UE5 won't work on Xbox/It's PS5 exclusive" when no one on planet Earth entertained those laughable ideas. Seems more like Golem's attempt to "balance" FUD on each camp, making imaginary FUD narratives that no one said to make it like "you know, all fanboys are bad".
 
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