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|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Hashi

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Another stupid driveby post that earns a 1 month reply ban

HeisenbergFX4

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Some Beach
I hope this is allowed in here...


Happy Chris Pratt GIF
 
Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
I hope this is allowed in here...


On the 27th after watching the footage we will be able to study the tech powering the game. Your post is just to let us know when we can be ready for said discussion.

I'm interested in seeing what upgrades the PS5 version has over the PS4 version. I know that fast travel will probably be crazy fast but I'm curious if they will add Ray tracing to the game. My guess is probably raytraced reflections in the robots metal and puddles.
 
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SlimySnake

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On the 27th after watching the footage we will be able to study the tech powering the game. Your post is just to let us know when we can be ready for said discussion.

I'm interested in seeing what upgrades the PS5 version has over the PS4 version. I know that fast travel will probably be crazy fast but I'm curious if they will add Ray tracing to the game. My guess is probably raytraced reflections in the robots metal and puddles.
There is already some footage here.

It's top down but looks in game.

 

Sinthor

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There is already some footage here.

It's top down but looks in game.

I agree that that shown was probably in-game already. I think we'll be pleased with what we see, regardless. I'm curious how and what the differences will be in the cross-gen versions. Going to be touchy, I would think, on making the reductions needed for say a base PS4 while making it still the same game. MAYBE as relatively simple as lower resolution (like 1080p) and no ray tracing versus 4k and ray tracing for PS5? Just very intrigued on how they'll do this. I know it's pretty much impossible, but it would be wild if what we've seen so far WAS the PS4 version. I mean, I don't recall seeing RT on the trailer they'd released already.....
 
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I agree that that shown was probably in-game already. I think we'll be pleased with what we see, regardless. I'm curious how and what the differences will be in the cross-gen versions. Going to be touchy, I would think, on making the reductions needed for say a base PS4 while making it still the same game. MAYBE as relatively simple as lower resolution (like 1080p) and no ray tracing versus 4k and ray tracing for PS5? Just very intrigued on how they'll do this. I know it's pretty much impossible, but it would be wild if what we've seen so far WAS the PS4 version. I mean, I don't recall seeing RT on the trailer they'd released already.....
Its going to be the same as Spiderman Miles Morales....

The PS5 version will probably have more resolution and performance modes, no load times, dual sense support and 3D audio support but I am not expecting much more than that.
 

PaintTinJr

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The nice thing about compressing normals is that each is quantized in its own 0-1 range, so it's orthogonal to dimensions of the space, topology etc. So this case really isn't more demanding than other use of normal-maps to date.


...


Can you clarify what you mean here? What has 5ms budget have to do with acceleration structure choice, or it being fixed/not fixed?
I'll reply to the easiest ones first, then do another reply.

The key word with the performance metric they gave for nanite (IMHO) was they said rasterized, inferring the entire process bypasses vertex and geometry shaders and just works in the fragment shader like SDF solutions seem to. So IMO the BVH cost would have also been listed if it was burdening that hardware, especially as we know that the character in the scene isn't rendered as part of the 90% scene geometry (they list in a slide) that nanite does, so the character is rendered the traditional way with polygon primitives and lit using hardware accelerated RT (BVH) to try and blend with lumen's scene lighting, so contention for BVH resources by nanite would surely be an important performance consideration IMO - if it does use BVH with the fragment shader.


As for the normal map, I think we are talking at cross purposes. I understood it to be just the storage size, not actually a normal map.

So (IMO) for nanite triangles with a UV channel , 1M nanite triangle (verts? locations?) + corresponding UV channel - whatever nanite's format is - occupies the same storage as 4Kx4Kx4bytes = 64MB.
/edit
Actually, thinking about the wording, the 1M triangles with a UV channel are artist numbers while using Studio Max , etc, not nanite. So that 1M asset using uv/bump mapping that maybe looks closer to 5M, I assume they are saying takes up a 4K normal map worth of storage when encoded to nanite's geometry - but without any more details on the format nanite encodes that data. However, given that they say they are only using normal maps(not bump maps) on the warrior (shield scratches) and the rest is geometry, it seems reasonable to assume nanite geometry encodes the lower frequency UV channel perturbing the 1M polys as nanite triangles.
edit/

If you are saying that the inaccuracy accommodated by lossy normal maps - textured on primitives of uncompressed verts - is the same inaccuracy primitive verts could handle, and them still accurately generate shadow maps and undergo shadow sampler comparison lookups to generate soft shadows like the grave yard scene, then you are probably going to need to provide me a link to an example where that's being achieved. AFAIK verts for scene geometry don't like lower precision, and especial biased lossy compression that 3Dc effectively produces. For normals - rather than verts - it is easy enough as they aren't critical - eg scratches on a warrior's shield - and can be renormalized to counter correct because they are a unit length, anyway.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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DriveClub, HZD make use of volumetric clouds. Nothing revolutionary imho.
Hellblade looks better imo. Much more forming and dissipating going on, and the lighting looks very realistic. Horizon looks more gamey, but maybe that's due to artstyle
 
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IntentionalPun

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i think we are really about to see what the ps5 can do in its first year.

no knocks on ratchet but Guerrilla are some Dev Wizards
It's a much more satisfying aesthetic for me personally too.

The technical aspects will be interesting to see what they accomplish of course.
 
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Hellblade looks better imo. Much more forming and dissipating going on, and the lighting looks very realistic. Horizon looks more gamey, but maybe that's due to artstyle

It doesn't look realistic. Lighting needs some work. Even a small thunder flashes in clouds can illuminate the area. In this gif it doesn't to that at all.
 
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PaintTinJr

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....

That's just fitting numbers to a predetermined conclusion. We don't have the internal data to reasonably deduce this.
Epic's quote would suggest 20M polys = 320MB, but even that is an assumption. Likewise whether 768MB is a pool allocation (which means it's not 100% full all of the time and could fall any number of ways in what data sits there) or an average usage (meaning it can go up and down) is equally undetermined. Or the fact this probably means all data, including textures which would still fit inside 700MB budget if half of it was used to those 20M polys and they had about 8 texel/poly density.
But this (both yours and my numbers) is just throwing darts blindfolded - we don't have even close to enough information to speculate with a sense of accuracy on it.
Completely agree about us throwing darts blindfolded, they've shown enough to sell us all on the product, but still managed to talk in an elusive manner that tells us something and nothing all at the same time.
When reading that slide, I was assuming geometry pool explicitly meant geometry, not textures, and if compressed down to 768MB by the GPU, meant the geometry pool is always larger than that when uncompressed(eg 1280MB = 20x64), but I equally concede we can't know until they lift the lid full on nanite implementation/numbers.

I mean most of implementations out there have editable vs. runtime representation setup differently, so it's not all or nothing type of thing necessarily. You yourself state below: Basically if that's the case - runtime is static (like shown in the demo), and live-editing might potentially exist where you compute changes as they are made, so no-persistent costs. Editing itself never comes for free either-way, but things like Dreams show it's doable at reasonable cost (and that's backed by SDFs too, since you like that concept ;)).
Three pages back, this video was posted.

I've timestamped it at the beginning of a small part that suggests it is all dynamic.

Taking into account the quantity of geometry in the megascans being moved in the video, the resulting octree changes that would be involve in real-time, if it is octrees as you think, and then consider the performance hit to generate lighting so dynamically in the editor as they do. I get that you could use a space partitioning hierarchy structure for SDF and that would help enormously to leverage the benefits of SDFs without crippling performance for geometry that's coverage didn't warrant the compute involved, but I just still think the numbers involved for octree editing are way beyond what dreams could do if patched to scale for Ps5 hardware.

I don't know if you considered what I wrote from my quoted response to onesvenus the other day, but I'm still pretty sure they've had to take the same type of Fourier transform signal analysis approach used for Jpeg/mp3 etc for importing geometry into UE5. If they can represent the geometry as a signal of parts, then the geometry coverage and compute for rendering the nanite geometry could be directly linked - as all their videos infer - and because of the means of unions or intersections with multiple SDFs, they don't need a hierarchical structures rebuilt or editted to efficiently scale, rotate or transform SDFs and keep the computation almost constant per pixel.
 
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Àfter playing Death Stranding on PS4 I'm fucking stoked to see what the latest revision of Decima can do, especially combined with PS5....

Shit's gonna melt faces and send certain camps into a state of insensate delerium.
I was actually a big fan of Metal Gear Solid 5, I've always had a hunch I'd enjoy Death Stranding but I haven't gotten around to it, maybe I'll wait a few more months for a possible PS5 update (maybe like a frame rate unlock?)

But back to HFW, so the game was originally targeted for PS4 but then shifted development for the PS5 at some point in time, my guess is that the GG developers have had their hands on the PS5 longer than other studios which may mean they could push HFW on the PS5 more than other cross-gen titles we've seen so far such as Miles Morales (which I know is also a first party but the size and scope of HFW is significantly bigger). Although I'm not expecting them to leverage more advanced features such as the Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders, or implementing an asset streaming pipeline designed for the SSD.

A few things that stood out to me in the new trailer were the detail and density of the foliage and the behaviour of the ocean and waves clashing. Another is the high polygon count on Aloy and her machine horse thingy, the resolution of the textures also looks significantly higher, I'm referring specifically to the shot where we first see Aloy as she's riding across the coast which in my opinion looks eye melting.
 
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Nubulax

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I was actually a big fan of Metal Gear Solid 5, I've always had a hunch I'd enjoy Death Stranding but I haven't gotten around to it, maybe I'll wait a few more months for a possible PS5 update (maybe like a frame rate unlock?)

But back to HFW, so the game was originally targeted for PS4 but then shifted development for the PS5 at some point in time, my guess is that the GG developers have had their hands on the PS5 longer than other studios which may mean they could push HFW on the PS5 more than other cross-gen titles we've seen so far such as Miles Morales (which I know is also a first party but the size and scope of HFW is significantly bigger). Although I'm not expecting them to leverage more advanced features such as the Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders, or implementing an asset streaming pipeline designed for the SSD.

A few things that stood out to me in the new trailer were the detail and density of the foliage and the behaviour ocean and waves clashing. Another is the high polygon count on Aloy and her machine horse thingy, the resolution of the textures also looks significantly higher, I'm referring specifically to the shot where we first see Aloy as she's riding across the coast which in my opinion looks eye melting.

Its hard to tell how the development went to see what they end up with. HZD came out Feb 2017 and DLC Nov 2017 so its already been 4 years since the original released. Spiderman didnt even come out until Sep 2018 and Insomniac did MM and a remaster of Spiderman and have Ratchet and Clank to release soon as well so that probably balances out the size and scope of HFW with those games and Insomniac since more was going on.

I have to imagine they had alot of story and changes they wanted to put in this second one ready to go and planned out within that first year after the original release and then the last 3 years just working on building it. Most likely it was developed as end of life PS4 game but knowing it would be cross gen and just waiting on the PS5 dev kit and specs. I cant imagine when they first started building it they knew what the PS5 was going to end up being spec wise but who knows maybe Sony gave them a rough target and they built ground up for those specs and are porting backward to PS4
 

Thief1987

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Did anyone post this?

We already discussed some game's size comparisons, but this looks like most complete list of games that has native currentgen version.

Edit Also not fully complete, sadly. Village and Outriders not present here, maybe something else that i don't remember
 
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Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
Did anyone post this?

We already discussed some game's size comparisons, but this looks like most complete list of games that has native currentgen version.

Edit Also not fully complete, sadly. Village and Outriders not present here, maybe something else that i don't remember

The size of the SSD doesn't seem so bad after seeing all that. Also these smaller sizes would mean more can be stored on the internal and external drives.
 

SlimySnake

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A few things that stood out to me in the new trailer were the detail and density of the foliage and the behaviour of the ocean and waves clashing. Another is the high polygon count on Aloy and her machine horse thingy, the resolution of the textures also looks significantly higher, I'm referring specifically to the shot where we first see Aloy as she's riding across the coast which in my opinion looks eye melting.
their waves tech stood out to me as well. I havent seen it in any game this gen so i just assumed it was next gen.



The water in the first Horizon looked pretty bad, but this is way better than anything we have seen this gen.
 

vivftp

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Stoked to see what Horizon FW can do on the PS5. While all this wonderful gaming goodness is going on I'm still very curious what Sony's plans are for PS Now and how they plan to handle newer games coming to the platform. PS5s in server racks seems unlikely as they have enough trouble meeting demand for the console itself. Virtual machines could work since they'd be using alternative hardware.

Anyone have any guesses on how they'll likely be handling it? If they really are going to put PS5 hardware into the datacenters then it may be a couple years before the service supports PS5 games for streaming at least.
 

kyliethicc

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Shoutout to Bo_Hazem Bo_Hazem for his thread write up on this SSD tech comparison.


Look at how the PS5's 825 GB SSD can actually hold more games than the XBSX's 1 TB SSD.

Same games on both, but almost 180 GB larger file size on Xbox. PS5 therefore has 43 GB more free space left.

Pretty cool compression tech on PS5. Could be a bigger factor over the years.

edit - updated info pic

 
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Sinthor

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This looks really nice. Good to see more info drops and progress on this game. Doesn't look revolutionary or anything to me...not that it has too- it looks really nice. But I'm playing thru Horizon Zero Dawn again right now and clouds look like this, even with sunrise/sunset, etc. Again, not taking away from this game- it looks great- just saying it doesn't appear to be GROUNDBREAKING. It doesn't have to either. Bottom line I guess, it's good to see more from this game. I think I just fear how people will react when the game itself isn't what that first trailer showed.
 

Sinthor

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their waves tech stood out to me as well. I havent seen it in any game this gen so i just assumed it was next gen.



The water in the first Horizon looked pretty bad, but this is way better than anything we have seen this gen.
I forgot about that! I wonder if we were seeing a mix of last gen/current gen footage with that trailer? Because I remember seeing the very opening part with waves crashing on rocks and shore and it wasn't impressive to me. Looked pretty generic. THEN you get to seeing the water and ocean in this and other shots and it was....stunningly different and better. A "little" thing like this water looking as it does can be easily overlooked, but it is a BIG DEAL. This looks incredible. Combined with the fog effects and lighting...definitely looks "next gen!"
 

Sinthor

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PS5 and XSX users install only this games?
Obviously not. This is simply a comparison using some of the most popular games that are on both platforms. What exactly is your point? You think the comparison is invalid somehow because it doesn't accurately depict EXACTLY what EACH PS5 and XSX owner in the world has installed on their systems or something?

 

Bernd Lauert

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Shoutout to Bo_Hazem Bo_Hazem for his thread write up on this SSD tech comparison.


Look at how the PS5's 825 GB SSD can actually hold more games than the XBSX's 1 TB SSD.

Same 12 games on both, but almost 180 GB larger file size on Xbox. PS5 therefore has 43 GB more free space left.

Pretty cool compression tech on PS5. Could be a bigger factor over the years.

Nice list. I wonder if devs will just keep lazily porting the Windows version of the game to Xbox, or if they'll start using data compression too at some point. The burden of having a unified GDK :messenger_beaming:
 

Hashi

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Sony Group want to invest 18 bilion USD (in 3 years) on strategic investments, including a push to expand subscribers to its gaming and entertainment services.
Number of consumers directly connected to its services is 160 million.
 

IntentionalPun

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Sony Group want to invest 18 bilion USD (in 3 years) on strategic investments, including a push to expand subscribers to its gaming and entertainment services.
Number of consumers directly connected to its services is 160 million.

Hoping they either stick with traditional console devs or have a strong PC release strategy if they are going to buy up a lot of devs.
 
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Garani

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I was actually a big fan of Metal Gear Solid 5, I've always had a hunch I'd enjoy Death Stranding but I haven't gotten around to it, maybe I'll wait a few more months for a possible PS5 update (maybe like a frame rate unlock?)

But back to HFW, so the game was originally targeted for PS4 but then shifted development for the PS5 at some point in time, my guess is that the GG developers have had their hands on the PS5 longer than other studios which may mean they could push HFW on the PS5 more than other cross-gen titles we've seen so far such as Miles Morales (which I know is also a first party but the size and scope of HFW is significantly bigger). Although I'm not expecting them to leverage more advanced features such as the Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders, or implementing an asset streaming pipeline designed for the SSD.

A few things that stood out to me in the new trailer were the detail and density of the foliage and the behaviour of the ocean and waves clashing. Another is the high polygon count on Aloy and her machine horse thingy, the resolution of the textures also looks significantly higher, I'm referring specifically to the shot where we first see Aloy as she's riding across the coast which in my opinion looks eye melting.
Actually, Death Stranding doesn't need more than 30FPS. It's that kind of game that doesn't really relay too much on combat and is more focused on traveling and building. Once that you know how to move, what to look for, you'll be avoiding all combat.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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Actually, Death Stranding doesn't need more than 30FPS. It's that kind of game that doesn't really relay too much on combat and is more focused on traveling and building. Once that you know how to move, what to look for, you'll be avoiding all combat.
No no no no no. No. Just no. 30 fps needs to die.
 

Jen_yakzua

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Sony Group want to invest 18 bilion USD (in 3 years) on strategic investments, including a push to expand subscribers to its gaming and entertainment services.
Number of consumers directly connected to its services is 160 million.
They honestly need to spend more than that
 
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