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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
Lunatic_Gamer said:


đź‘€
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Hopefully it's not a bunch of doody.

9dab3f9c45d7c3be4c147f513685a8f0.gif
 
Metroiddarks

Metroiddarks

Member
Games Dean said:
I've never heard of this person. Thought they were just another rando. Can you fill me in a little on their history?
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He is not another random, he is just crazy.

He usually is a leaker of Nintendo stuff, so you got an idea of how good its sources are.


Is not like what he says will be 100% accurate but as leaker is good enough to in the personal I don't follow him because
I don't want he/she ruined me what Nintendo is going to show.

https://www.wired.com/story/nintendo-leaks-crack-down-animal-crossing-e3/

He is a true leaker.
 
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Q

quest

Not Banned from OT
Lunatic_Gamer said:


đź‘€
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I have heard that since 9-9-99 for every system launch to be disappointed by a messily couple of games sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are all guilty of shit launches. We shall see but I think this is about as real as Microsoft buying a Japanese studio. I love to see a bunch of heavy hitters at launch by Sony first parties studios but call me skeptical.
 
Games Dean

Games Dean

Member
HeisenbergFX4 said:
I know the game he described and simply can’t say anymore then that.

I will admit he told me a couple of things about games I hadn’t heard yet and since have indeed had what he said confirmed by someone I without a doubt trust.

I hope we see a couple of new games with this eventual PS5 showcase.

Late night guesses and all.
Click to expand...

Wow. That's been the single biggest OsirisBlack/pre-reveal insider related thing that's been bugging me. Thanks for the reply.

Do you think you can let us know what the games were that you heard about after they're announced?
 
Games Dean

Games Dean

Member
Metroiddarks said:
He is not another random, he is just crazy.

He usually is a leaker of Nintendo stuff, so you got an idea of how good its sources are.


Is not like what he says will be 100% accurate but as leaker is good enough to in the personal I don't follow him because
I don't want he/she ruined me what Nintendo is going to show.

https://www.wired.com/story/nintendo-leaks-crack-down-animal-crossing-e3/

He is a true leaker.
Click to expand...


Reminds me of Dusk Golem who has such a good track record with Capcom leaks that I take pretty much everything he leaks as fact (including Silent Hill for the PS5).
 
FeiRR

FeiRR

Banned
Audiophile said:
Perhaps Sony's cooling secret this time around is not having a blind person apply the thermal paste; and for the main constituent of said paste be actual thermal paste and not their current toothpaste/quick-dry cement combo.
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I appreciate the comedy in your comment but in reality those are poor Chinese workers who get a few dollars worth for their shift. My Pro also had that "toothpaste" badly applied but a very good one applied correctly afterwards didn't help much with the jet engine. We need a generally better cooling solution this time, or maybe Smartshift will do it.

Coulomb_Barrier said:
No it weren't BGs that did that you're quite wrong. BGs actually hinted that PS5 had lower tflops (but he said that PS5 had more performance at the start of the year), it was Tommy Fisher and Osiris Black that whipped people up into a frenzy with 11-13 tflops for PS5.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's because TFs aren't really useful metrics and game designers don't use them on daily basis? Here's Guerilla's GPU performance profiler.



BadBreathOfTheWild said:
At the same time, 40x faster is significant. Why did Sony feel the need to target 100x faster? Why not 50x? 80x? This is what I hope we get definite answers on soon.
Click to expand...
It might be the speed at which you need to stream assets to catch up with a typical VR FOW head turning speed at a certain resolution of PSVR2 and it's highest framerate. I think VR specs will be used as top metrics because VR is more demanding.

xacto said:
Might have been that Sony didn't EXACTLY know about Microsoft's SSD architecture and they went all out, balls to the wall? I mean, barring a mid-gen refresh in 3 to 4 years (IF it will happen this time around), what you come up with at the beginning of a new generation will be defining your sales; go half-cocked, you might regret it deeply down the line.

No idea, I am just shooting in the dark here. But as Microsoft went with the TF count, it's not crazy to think that Sony's team decided to put their eggs in a different basket.
Click to expand...
The whole idea of Sony paying too much attention to a competitor which has less than half of their market share is a bit weird to me. I bet their primary concern is to satisfy their shareholders and that's a hefty task knowing that this generation was over 110 million consoles and way over a billion games sold.
 
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James Sawyer Ford

James Sawyer Ford

Member
HeisenbergFX4 said:
I talked to him on several occasions at length and while what he was telling me was spot on about iterations of devkits (design wise) his number was always wrong to what I was being told.

I still to this day believe he really believed his numbers.

I do not believe he intentionally set out to basically ruin any credibility he had.

These are just my feelings though speaking with him directly.
Click to expand...

The numbers could easily have been confused if they didn't have any context to them, since we know that 10TF on GCN = 15 TF RDNA2
 
pasterpl

pasterpl

Member
FeiRR said:
I appreciate the comedy in your comment but in reality those are poor Chinese workers who get a few dollars worth for their shift. My Pro also had that "toothpaste" badly applied but a very good one applied correctly afterwards didn't help much with the jet engine. We need a generally better cooling solution this time, or maybe Smartshift will do it.


Maybe it's because TFs aren't really useful metrics and game designers don't use them on daily basis? Here's Guerilla's GPU performance profiler.




It might be the speed at which you need to stream assets to catch up with a typical VR FOW head turning speed at a certain resolution of PSVR2 and it's highest framerate. I think VR specs will be used as top metrics because VR is more demanding.


The whole idea of Sony paying too much attention to a competitor which has less than half of their market share is a bit weird to me. I bet their primary concern is to satisfy their shareholders and that's a hefty task knowing that this generation was over 110 million consoles and way over a billion games sold.
Click to expand...


re. PS4 cooling system, my PS4 pro, fortunately is not suffering from this “jet engine” syndrome but the issue is there (My standard ps4 was much louder than my pro) and I am sure that Sony tested it prior to the release and were sure that their approach at the time was sufficient and good enough for the users and if asked prior to the PS4 release would have said same thing that they are saying now. In this area I simply dont trust Sony and will wait until I (don’t) hear the ps5 working.

re. the competitor, you are probably right, I think it is reasonable to say that this is what Nintendo did, they simply created their own market niche and moved to delivering unique experiences and abandoned the power “arms race”. At least at the begging of each gen the TFlops don’t matter that much, it is all about content.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
roops67 said:
There's something import that should be understood about XBOX Series X hardware and Microsoft's ingenuity (cough cough) that may or may not have been brought up here before...

MS have documented that the XSX uses 'asymmetric' memory setup of 10GB at 560GB/s and 6GB at 336GB/s - 'faster 10GB primarily to be used with the graphics system and 6GB to be used for the other computing functions' (taken from wiki)

For those who ain't discovered, this asymmetric setup is the MOTHER of all bottlenecks cos it happens to be the backbone of the whole system! Why you may ask is it such a major problem, it has 560GB/s feeding it's 52 CU's right? Put it simply the XSX will really need 2 dedicated memory bus's to get the dual bandwidths they claim, that would be crazy 560GB/s + 336GB/s would make 896GB/s total! No, what they have is 320 bit bus at 14ghz. That 320bits used for 10GB fast access and then 192bits of the same bus to access the 6GB pool on a separate cycle of the 14ghz. If you ain't wrapped your head around that yet then think scenario CPU needs to access the 6GB and GPU accessing its 10GB at same time, this will happen on alternate cycles of the 14ghz so in effect they would be getting half the bandwidth will be 7ghz x 320bits will be 280GB/s for the GPU 10GB (fast?), an 7ghz x 192bits is 168GB/s for the CPU 6GB. Well that sounds really bad, but of course that's extreme conditions, BUT it's not great either any which way you chop up the bandwidth!!

To elaborate they have 5 x 64bit memory controllers accessing 16GB. Well 16 into 5 doesn't go evenly so how the fook did they make that fit. The GDDR6 memory are 32 bit wide, so they have physical 6 x 2GB and 4 x 1GB chips, 10 chips in total. Memory is written striped across ram chips, doubt MS would have done it differently otherwise it would be a lot slower. Now would assume... Fast 10GB access would be 320bits connected 4 x 1GB + 6 x lower half of the 2GB chips, slow 6GB would be 192bits (out of the 320bits) switching to the 6 x top half of the 2GB chips

Some may argue the cpu would not need to access the ram as much cos its cache will keep it busy for a relatively while. But guess what, Microsoft have reduced the L3 cache substantially on their Zen2 (probably to make room for their precious CU's and/or cost saving), so it will be taking even more trips out to ram than usual. And then take into consideration all the other access that will be going on by the IO sound dma's and such. All this reducing the bandwidth ratio when the full 320bits will able to grab data making it even rarer for the gpu to keep all CU's firing

I had discovered the above info from Duoae at :
Analyse This: The Next Gen Consoles (Part 9) [UPDATED]
He's done a great job in breaking this down! I would guess it has been posted here before somewhere

Not sure how the heck XSX is able to lever any benefits of HSA (heterogeneous system architecture) as the XSX memory pool of the gpu and cpu are segregated. One of the main benefits of using APU architecture is HSA but Microsoft have missed the point of it. Maybe its gpu cpu can access some same memory but the way they're going about it seems to defeat the purpose of hsa

Microsoft touting they've made the 'World's Most Powerful Console' being super efficient and they've eliminated every bottle-neck is an extreme LIE. The XSX is not designed by talented engineers, otherwise they would have not made such stupid decisions and compromises in the architecture. But by incompetent engineers made to order by Phil Spencer to meet their PR narrative they have a 12TF console that is twice as powerful as their last generation, that was their goal no matter what sacrifices they made to get it! It's got 52 CU's do the maths you get 12TF. But it won't deliver as its being discovered right now by developers working on it... if they ain't got anything good to say about it then don't say anything at all!

Any of you wanna call this fud, fine it will be your loss when you buy your XSX and discover it underperform at everything, not because of early releases but its entire life cycle. Don't get angry at me, get angry at Microsoft for selling you a lie
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See, what makes it FUD and reportable console warrior food, going toe to toe with the “SFS buys 3x bandwidth improvements over PS5, gap is closed”, “SSD is too fast for PS5’s GPU”, “SSD speed hits diminishing returns over 2.4 GB/s”, etc... pals, is how you are taking an article or video (which frankly I have yet to visit the link to) and using it to essentially change the following statement

“They engineers designed a system to hit a strategic design goal and had to make compromises along the way which may result in some efficiency drop-offs” (true for every system ever, disappointment only to those that think infinite R&D money for console designs is a thing)

into

“The XSX is not designed by talented engineers, otherwise they would have not made such stupid decisions and compromises in the architecture. But by incompetent engineers”

It is likely that there are compromises in the design, it is likely they hit very high frequencies (ECC implemented in a console system memory is a first, definitely is for GDDR6) to achieve the current bandwidth solution, and also likely that they over-provisioned peak bandwidth available in light of contention with the CPU which would mean compared to PS5 that bandwidth available grew even more than the gap in TFLOPS did (same thing goes for using different parts of some modules to serve data to the GPU optimised high speed path and the slower one)... this is different from the system being designed by stupid engineers.
 
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xacto

xacto

Member
dan_of_orion said:
Truth is, a lot of us did. It's hard to say but the next-gen tech really exposed a lot of our ignorance on gaming architecture and systems, a lot us Sony fans fell for the teraflop power narrative a long time ago thinking it was the only metric for performance, it's why so much of us were adamant on jumping on the 13 TF train (hype train memories lol). I remember so many people on this thread went into a meltdown because the PS5's tf was lower than the Series X. it was so bad I actually took a break from this thread for a few weeks until things cooled down.

Luckily we've had so many respected developers, tech analysts, trusted insiders and journalists come out and tell us that the PS5 is actually a more than capable console and more importantly that it would be a game changer in how games are designed. I remember one game designer even reacting to the UE5 trailer and saying that this sort of capabilities will actually change the workflow of game studios since they won't be wasting time on creating LOD's, maps and solving sufficient data stream problems, all of which are mostly caused by slow hard disk drives. It's actually going to cause small shifts in the gaming industry.

EDIT: I would just like to add, regardless of what spec sheets say, the developor praise for the PS5 is enough for me, I fell in love with Playstation first party games and if the creators of those games are highly praising the PS5 than who am I to complain. I'm sold on it already.
Click to expand...

It could probably be because we, console players, came from a world dominated by PC gaming, where brute power is the only metric, this is all we knew, after generations and generations of weak hardware.

And we went on with it, not being totally aware, after the GDC, that some things had to give, this is a new world, where PC hardware, at least in some aspects needs to catch up with consoles this time around.

Just as you mention, the spec sheet of the PS5 is good enough for me, and even if it was 9TF or 12-13TF, I would have still bought it. I had PS3 before the PS4, and I loved the worlds and the stories Sony presented to me in their first party games, and the simplicity of being able to play a game just by dropping the disc in the player; no more "damn, I need to upgrade my drivers" or "I need more RAM" and "I need to upgrade my graphics card, but hey I also need a new motherboard, and also a new PSU" and so on and so forth.

I was a PC player, but having to travel extensively at some point in my life, I needed to get me something to be able to use "on the go", not being able to lug around a bulky PC case. It wasn't easy for me to take the plunge and switch from one world to another, not because I was a "master race" type of guy - my PC was being able to play games at medium settings, nothing fancy, but because using a controller instead of mouse and keyboard was a defining moment for me as a gamer.

Why did I choose Sony? Because I was in love with Sony as an electronics brand (TV's, smartphones and so on) not because I made an "informed choice". I could have gone Xbox; but I assure you, I wouldn't have lost my minds today over Sony's better implementation of the SSD in their system over the Xbox.

So here I am today, hanging on with my favorite brand, which also happens to have some amazing hardware and games as well. Waiting, like most of you, to see some next-gen goodies, while reminiscing of the good old days, hoping that people will understand one day that it really, REALLY doesn't matter what brand you pick, as long as you have fun with it.

Sorry for the long post, some of it has nothing to do with this thread. If a moderator will edit it, or warn me, well here I am.
 
xacto

xacto

Member
FeiRR said:
The whole idea of Sony paying too much attention to a competitor which has less than half of their market share is a bit weird to me. I bet their primary concern is to satisfy their shareholders and that's a hefty task knowing that this generation was over 110 million consoles and way over a billion games sold.
Click to expand...

You're right with the point that you have shareholders and they must be kept happy (AKA with full pockets), but I don't think any company worth their salt will ever ignore a competitor, no matter how small a market share they have.

Especially that in this market, Microsoft IS their direct competitor, any way you look at it. I don't think, for one second, that shareholder meeting ignores Xbox just because they have less than half the market.

At least the company I work for (Swiss pharma) we NEVER ignore competitors, even if they're small; if they're small enough, they will be swallowed. If not, you keep two eyes open when you sleep.
 
Coulomb_Barrier

Coulomb_Barrier

Member
I invest a lot in my PC but even with my all-SSD system (NVMe as boot and standard SATA as main storage), playing games can take too long and is sluggish.

Example is Total War games. Loading up Steam still takes too fucking long (several seconds), then clicking to play the game launches the TW launcher, which is another 4-5 seconds then the real kicker is the game loading, about 20 secs for main menu. And then another 10-15 secs to load your save!

Same with RDR2, that game takes an age to go from desktop to in-game even with an SSD.

There is HUGE room for improvement with just streamlining and simply vastly quickening this experience. If PS5 really is a few secs to jump into games it'll be night and day difference to my PC.
 
Gediminas

Gediminas

Banned
ethomaz said:
You will use 7GB/s SSDs on PS5 after launch and it will probably improve performance over the default SSD that come with PS5.

Sony choice for 12 lanes is due to use cheaper NAND modules to reach 5.5GB/s.

All the key custom hardware IO Sony did is inside the APU with the I/O controller, cache, co-IO controllers and de decompression units.

BTW all new 7GB/s M.2 SSD to be released this year (that will be compatible with PS5) uses NVMe protocol version 1.4.

Click to expand...
Cerny in road to PS5 said that you need at least 7,5GB/s to reach standart PS5 SSD. and how he said it, body language tells me that number could be even higher. we'll see.
 
geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
FeiRR said:
Here's Guerilla's GPU performance profiler.

Click to expand...


That profiler is another good explanation of power profiles, Sonys solution is not technically JUST smart shift, that technology is changing power every 2 ms, 2 ms is fast enough you can change 8 times in a frame and there is plenty of scope.

The clever bit is choosing a lower frequency when knowing which sets of commands generate heat, so I imagine it dropping 2 % or down to 10 TF (if we just consider the GPU) when corner / edge case sets of instructions come in and it can do this for an 1/8 th of a frame. During those set of worst case instructions, lower heat is generated so its changing power profiles on prediction rather than reactive to thermal heat (although the instrctions would of finished by 2 ms anyway).

And the rest of the frame it happily chugs along at full speed and thats not contemplating CPU + GPU together.

So in summary Ps5 may drop a small amount when it sees those commands which generate a power spike (like AVX on CPU + whatever taxes GPU as a power spike) for 20 % of the frame.

For normal work profiles nobody will notice it or measure it. Also this is not boost or thermal throttling, that is after the heat is generated and thermal throttling its not 2 ms granularity.

Its very clever concept and will add performance efficiency which is the Ps5 concept it seems, and posters concerning about is it a 10.28 TF machine just have no concept how things work in the real world its funny.
 
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ToadMan

ToadMan

Member
ethomaz said:
You will use 7GB/s SSDs on PS5 after launch and it will probably improve performance over the default SSD that come with PS5.

Sony choice for 12 lanes is due to use cheaper NAND modules to reach 5.5GB/s.

All the key custom hardware IO Sony did is inside the APU with the I/O controller, cache, co-IO controllers and de decompression units.

BTW all new 7GB/s M.2 SSD to be released this year (that will be compatible with PS5) uses NVMe protocol version 1.4.

Click to expand...

According to Cerny they've been testing the fastest SSDs and they cannot maintain their claimed performance figures - that led him to say wait for Sony to confirm which SSDs will be able to maintain adequate throughput - thodse 7GB/s drives may keep up with the inbuilt PS5 throughput but no more than that.

Maybe a couple of years they'll be there.
 
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D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
David Ricardo said:
A lot of us expected PS5 at 12-13 teraflops. When it was revealed at 10.28 tf not sustained it was a letdown. You contributed to it.
Nobody cares about GCN conversions. We wanted to know RDNA teraflops.

My guess is you didn't actually know the teraflops number.
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I think he knew the teraflops number but the issue was mostly that he applied those GCN conversions only for 1 system. If he would've said that the same calculation can be applied to XSX the story would be different. But now he hinted that PS5 is at 12-13TF (using GCN conversions but not telling this), would have people believe the PS5 GPU is on par or even better than the XSX, while now we know this isn't the case, which caused a letdown.
 
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T-Cake

T-Cake

Member
Gediminas said:
Cerny in road to PS5 said that you need at least 7,5GB/s to reach standart PS5 SSD. and how he said it, body language tells me that number could be even higher. we'll see.
Click to expand...

I don't think it can be higher, I'm sure Mark said 7GB would be near to saturating the PCI Express link. From a quick google, PCI Express 4.0 has 2GB/sec per lane, so 2*4=8 tops.
 
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geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
T-Cake said:
I don't think it can be higher, I'm sure Mark said 7GB would be near to saturating the PCI Express link. From a quick google, PCI Express 4.0 has 2GB/sec per lane, so 2*4=8 tops.
Click to expand...

Agree 8 is probably max transfer then decompression, think Cerny is being vague as they need to find if a faster raw speed makes up for missing the 6 priorities.
 
T

Three Jackdaws

Unconfirmed Member
geordiemp said:
Agree 8 is probably max transfer then decompression, think Cerny is being vague as they need to find if a faster raw speed makes up for missing the 6 priorities.
Click to expand...
If that be the case, it’s likely we’ll see a higher storage model maybe a year or two down the line because of demand
 
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