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Next Nintendo platform - Volume 1: Haptic technology

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Hello!
Recent Nintendo results (especially in the home department) spawned lots of debates about what the company should do in the future, with lots of threads being created, most discussing general subjects about hardware and software.
What I want to do is a little different: I'd like to generate discussions about specific points that I feel can be very interesting to talk about. Then, this is the first of a series of discussions about these specific subjects. They are all dedicated to what I think are interesting points for the next Nintendo platform (then, the 3DS successor).

So, here's the first subject: implementing haptic technologies.

What's haptic?

This recent article talks about what this technology allows:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/...eeling-and-texture-to-touchscreens-and-beyond

Basically: the next major step for touch-screens: letting users feel with their fingers, giving them the feedback. Which means much better usability for digital keyboards, buttons and...digital pads. Especially them.

Here's more in the specific how haptic technology could be a great choice for the screen(s) of the next Nintendo portable system.

A great catch for general audience

So far, touchscreens only allowed people to interact with software, without giving them any kind of tactile feeling. But think about if you can not just view clothing articles, but also feeling their textures. Or (gaming example) feeling you are really controlling a mech in Steel Battalion, and not just touching stuff on a screen with no sensation. It's the evolution of interaction between human and machine, and certainly something that lots of people can see as magical.
Moreover, this is something that everyone can enjoy, without problems like the 3D feature of 3DS, a feature that many people see as not that useful and even damaging for their eyes.

Being the first to use it, at a good price

If next Nintendo handheld uses haptic technology, it'll be the first major device with it, and considering how next hardware price shouldn't be over 200 $, they would provide such a big evolution step for a great price. This depends on haptic screens prices in late 2016 (when I suppose it'll be launched). Mobile development will surely help in making having a portable Wii U graphics-wise possible and cheap enough, but screens are a different matter, since they'd be different.

Gaming possibilities

Think again about the Steel Battalion example mentioned above. But also touching animal furs in children titles, or feeling the parts of a specific environment in a graphic adventure...but, above all, it would allow to finally have digital analogues and buttons that give you a feedback, that make you feel you're seriously controlling the game and not just touching a screen without being sure of controlling a game as you wish.

Control customisation

You can have the physical controls, but you have problems with them because, maybe, buttons are too little for your hands, or their placement is not ideal. Digital contols + haptic screens should solve this problem: customers could customise their setup as they can. Think about a platform with both top and bottom haptic touch screen. Copying myself from another thread where I already expressed this idea (even if more extreme than what I'm doing here):

-You can put both analogues, d-pad and buttons on the top screen, when you play with the console wide open
- You can put them all on the bottom screen, if you play in a classic DS-like portable style
- You can put some of them on the top screen, other on the bottom
- You can change size and position of single bottons
- You can customize the single parts, with special skins for the background, bottons and what else (they could be unlockable through completing Nintendo's version of Achievements/Trophies)
- Becoming the best emulator system ever. Yeah: to play older games with much bigger fidelity than ever, just select that console's control scheme, and go. Think about replaying Super Smash Bros. Melee with all your favourite Nintendo Gamecube analogues and buttons (the great A!), just as an example
- Letting developers creating special control setupus just for specific games. Like, a Street Fighter game having an arcade like setup, with simulated arcade sticks and arcade buttons, in conjunction with something similar to SSFIV's touch functions. Or, a Steel Battalion game where there are many things to touch on both sides of the top screen, for a bigger immersion in the game itself

This would seriously make possible for everyone to play, if physical controls doesn't satisfy you, especially for Virtual Console titles.

Special reason: conquering the otaku market

Yep, haptic tech means also finally reaching an audience that, so far, has been more or less in Sony hands.
Think about it: haptic tech allows for feeling textures, even those of clothes. And it makes you feel superficies, then also when they're curve...do I need to go on with this explanation? :lol

These are the main reasons I think this tech would seriously help Nintendo in making their next platform attractive to lots of people, from casual customers to developers themselves. The real problem, right now, are the costs, how much could it cost using it in two-three years een-masse. If it's fiesable, they should totally implement it IMHO.

I could put other reasons in the OP in the next hours, while the secod thread in the series could appear in the next days or in a week. Now, let's discuss about this possibility.
 
They should make it so that you feel every time you get hit and then eventually die in a blaze of video game glory and mayhem.
 
Haptics will be cool in the future, but I don't think it's where Nintendo need it to be yet. I'll believe it when I feel it. Price is one problem (and Nintendo absolutely cannot have a repeat of this gen where they end up selling hardware at a loss) and the other is that the tech is just not there to eliminate the need for buttons. Even if they found a cheap enough haptic touch screen tech, you can bet your bottom dollar the next Nintendo will have physical buttons.
 
Haptic feedback isn't advanced enough to create a convincing feeling of using a real analog stick. I agree with everything else though, especially how it would allow players to feel in-game textures.
 
They should make it so that you feel every time you get hit and then eventually die in a blaze of video game glory and mayhem.
PBF134-Game_System.gif
 
That sounds like something that will get boring fast outside of Otaku/dating sim games.

I rather they improve the 3D instead. They already have the technology so just make it that you can never lose the sweetspot.
 
That sounds like something that will get boring fast.

I rather they improve the 3D instead. They already have the technology so just make it that you can never lose the sweetspot.

It sounds a lot better than 3D. Convincing haptic feedback is the next big thing in touchscreen devices.
 
I really want to see how Valve does it with Steam Controller. Maybe it can be done really well, so I would be happy to see this.
 
Seriously, the handheld needs to retail for about $150. If Disney is just starting to implement this tech in their theme parks or whatever, it's going to be a while before it's withered enough for Nintendo's purposes.
 
There's already one upcoming major gaming platform that uses the technology as the primary input, so Nintendo's not going to be the trailblazer here. Should Nintendo go this route, they should pay close attention to how the Steam Machine controller turns out.

I do think that they should go this route eventually, though.
 
Seriously, the handheld needs to retail for about $150. If Disney is just starting to implement this tech in their theme parks or whatever, it's going to be a while before it's withered enough for Nintendo's purposes.
That handheld better be pretty powerful if it costs that much since Vita might be even lower by the time it releases.

$129.99 should be the upper limit.
 
Knowing Nintendo it will be cheap and plasticky and the console will still have relatively weak specs to offset costs.
 
Let's not give them ideas. A console based on a random tech that will make it expensive and abstract for people (i never really understood that haptic thing and i don't really believe it can be convincing... cause i don't see how you can emulate lots of different materials via electric things... Again i'm dumb on the matter but i guess lots of people would feel that way when hearing about it..)

The hybrid talk is overused i know but this is the kind of situation where Nintendo's strategy is basically obvious and dictated by the time. At this point the 3ds showed them that they are untouchable on the portable market (by other consoles i mean). They just need to make the next one even more the ultimate japanese and nintendo gaming console, while making sure it bites even more the home console market, and they'll be assured to be the only japanese relevant console at least.
 
How about fewer gimmicks?
Are you saying haptic is a gimmick? I don't think any of the features in their systems have been "gimmicks" since they have dictate to back up the outrage, but haptic is something I wouldn't really expect someone to speak about negatively.

I've never tried it though.
 
That handheld better be pretty powerful if it costs that much since Vita might be even lower by the time it releases.

$129.99 should be the upper limit.

I would be happy with Vita level raw power but displayed at 720p. The kind of power would be perfect for Nintendo's franchises and as third parties have shown on Vita, they are not interested spending budgets of over $10 million on handheld games anyway.

I really hope they stay away from gimmicks this time, people just want good looking Nintendo games on the go for a low price point. A great OS, UI and Virtual Console are a must aswell.

I feel Nintendo have one of the most valuable things in gaming in the form of their VC, if they insist on not putting at least NES games on iOS then the World needs another way to play them on the go.

For both their next home and handheld consoles I think Nintendo needs to think extremely simply, no gimmicks, just get the basics right and once they increase their market share they can add on other things with future consoles.
 
How about fewer gimmicks?

So much this... and they need to expand the genres in which they release games (i am talking first party developed here) ,because the market has drastically changed (for the worse IMHO) and people are no longer as enamoured with their franchises as they once were.
 
The hybrid talk is overused i know but this is the kind of situation where Nintendo's strategy is basically obvious and dictated by the time. At this point the 3ds showed them that they are untouchable on the portable market (by other consoles i mean). They just need to make the next one even more the ultimate japanese and nintendo gaming console, while making sure it bites even more the home console market, and they'll be assured to be the only japanese relevant console at least.

The hybrid talk is silly imo. Why would they cut off their potentially massive home business ?. Yes the WiiU is a momentous failure but there there is always the chance they can develop a new console which takes at least a third of the hardware market. I hate to think how much money they made from the Wii as they were making money on every box sold even at launch and because of the user base third parties were handing money over like it was going out of fashion for software licenses and people want to totally eliminate this potential revenue stream ?...

This Haptic idea is cool but as others have said it will be very expensive even in 2016 to put on a handheld which they will want to get out for at least $149 in a market increasingly shrinking because of mobile platforms.

In terms of home hardware I think they have two options -

1. A very basic, low powered set top box like device which plays Netfllix / Miiverse / other media apps and also has a Virtual Console with every single major Nintendo game from the NES to Wii. Retails for $149 using a sub based service for software and arrives Nov 2016.

*2. Match / slightly improve Sony's PS4 hardware specs for $199 around Winter 2016. Comes with an improved pro controller as standard, the console also supports Wii Motion +. Money hat all third parties for the latest ports of AAA franchises, paying for the ports if need be just to have them on their system. By doing this they can go for the hardcore while also still having their Wii Sports / Play / Fit franchises on the system and their core Nintendo titles like Smash and Zelda (the original vision of WiiU at E3 2011).

*Option 2 will only happen when Iwata leaves, he is obsessed by this outdated mantra handed down to him by Yamauchi "Don't copy the competition". You can copy their good points and put the Nintendo twist on it...

Continuing to rely on gimmicks which are extremely risky is a terrible future business plan for Nintendo imo. Esp when the future gimmicks like VR and Haptic feedback are so expensive. If WiiU has proved anything it's that they should never again release a Nintendo home console for anything over $249.
 
Someone must have picked up on my post about haptic feed back in the other threads talking about new Nintendo platforms, and that's a ok with me. Good over view OP, Haptic feedback easily could be what Nintendo is working on for next gen sensory input.
 
So you basically want Nintendo to rip off Valve's Steam controller?

I think Apple will beat Nintendo to the punch with haptic technology in portable devices. I'd love an ipad with haptic feedback.
 
The hybrid talk is silly imo. Why would they cut off their potentially massive home business ?. Yes the WiiU is a momentous failure but there there is always the chance they can develop a new console which takes at least a third of the hardware market. I hate to think how much money they made from the Wii as they were making money on every box sold even at launch and because of the user base third parties were handing money over like it was going out of fashion for software licenses and people want to totally eliminate this potential revenue stream ?...

Exactly. The hybrid idea has always been a rather short-sighted concept that does nothing to address Nintendo's long-term problems (not to mention, why on earth would be they put all of their eggs in a basket that's under heavy fire? Nintendo simply doesn't have what it takes to compete fully in the mobile market alongside the likes of Apple and Google, and coming out with some hybrid technology that would require more power in a handheld, and likely raise the cost to suit, would put them exactly in that space where they can't compete).

The answer to Nintendo's problems is diversification. They woefully need to expand their product offerings, not shrink and become more niche than they already are...and that means staying in the home console business.

As for haptic feedback, I'm not impressed. It's interesting technology to be sure, but I really don't think it'll elicit the visceral response that the Wii did with motion technology. It's not about just being first to market with something...it's about being first to market with something that can truly capture people's imaginations. I don't see haptic feedback eliciting more than an "Oh! Wow...that's kinda cool, I s'pose" from people. And Nintendo is absolutely not in the position to spend the money, and jack up the cost of the hardware, for something that's just "ok."
 
SNES was Nintendo's last not gimmicky console, IMO. They weren't trying to reinvent anything, they just made it better than the NES. I wish Nintendo would stop fucking with controllers, make a more powerful Wii and release it with the Wii Classic Controller(Wii U Pro is shit) and call it Super Wii or even Super Nintendo 2. Just save money on all that R&D for a couple years and pump out some fucking awesome games before all the good designers die off or retire.

Btw, I don't think haptic technology is as good as the OP thinks it is.
 
I think they should give VR another shot. It will be all the craze in a couple years.
I've played with some haptic feedback touchscreens as well. Pretty impressive stuff but I'm pretty sure I would still prefer actual physical buttons, triggers and sticks.
 
SNES was Nintendo's last not gimmicky console, IMO. They weren't trying to reinvent anything, they just made it better than the NES. I wish Nintendo would stop fucking with controllers, make a more powerful Wii and release it with the Wii Classic Controller(Wii U Pro is shit) and call it Super Wii or even Super Nintendo 2. Just save money on all that R&D for a couple years and pump out some fucking awesome games before all the good designers die off or retire.

Btw, I don't think haptic technology is as good as the OP thinks it is.

WIIU is a more powerful console than the WIi, probably one of the biggest tech leaps ever in a single gen jump. They just made the mistake of including a very expensive controller in the box. WiiU with a Wii motion+ instead of the tablet controller, called Wii2 for $249 would have been a much, much more successful console than WiiU.

Also the Pro controller is shit ? :O. It's one of the best controllers ever made imo and pushes the 360/PS4 controller very close, the battery life is also epic esp compared to the PS4's controller battery.
 
In terms of home hardware I think they have two options -

1. A very basic, low powered set top box like device which plays Netfllix / Miiverse / other media apps and also has a Virtual Console with every single major Nintendo game from the NES to Wii. Retails for $149 using a sub based service for software and arrives Nov 2016.

*2. Match / slightly improve Sony's PS4 hardware specs for $199 around Winter 2016. Comes with an improved pro controller as standard, the console also supports Wii Motion +. Money hat all third parties for the latest ports of AAA franchises, paying for the ports if need be just to have them on their system. By doing this they can go for the hardcore while also still having their Wii Sports / Play / Fit franchises on the system and their core Nintendo titles like Smash and Zelda (the original vision of WiiU at E3 2011).

I really don't see the point of either option. 1 is the definition of being stuck in the past, and there's no guarantee that the mainstream would be willing to buy this Nintendo set-top box just to replay old games. 2 is too little too late, and would be almost certainly be met with a tepid response just like the Wii U. There are three avenues worth pursuing with their next console, IMO.

1. Build up goodwill towards the Nintendo brand by investing in new IPs, reviving dormant ones, venturing outside the comfort zone of well-established series (also known as the Link Between Worlds treatment) and rolling out a unified account system. Riding that positive momentum, release a Wii U successor that leapfrogs the PSBone into the next generation with an 8 to 12 month headstart. Moneyhat third parties for next-gen ports of their biggest IPs if necessary.

2. Try to find the next Wii Remote, whatever that may be. Incredibly risky and could drive the company even further into a corner if it backfires.

3. Or a combination of 1 and 2.
 
I don't see why they take a gen and stop trying to innovate with their controller and just innovate with software. Create a bunch of new IPs to push really hard and create their next big franchises. They have the talent. Otherwise we'll end up like this gen where it seems more like they made their USPs to sell the system without too many ideas behind it.
 
WIIU is a more powerful console than the WIi, probably one of the biggest tech leaps ever in a single gen jump. They just made the mistake of including a very expensive controller in the box. WiiU with a Wii motion+ instead of the tablet controller, called Wii2 for $249 would have been a much, much more successful console than WiiU.

Also the Pro controller is shit ? :O. It's one of the best controllers ever made imo and pushes the 360/PS4 controller very close, the battery life is also epic esp compared to the PS4's controller battery.

Sorry I meant a more powerful Wii U. Maybe the Pro controller will grow on me over time, I've only had a few hours with it, but I hate the buttons being below the right thumb stick. I've heard others complain about the same thing, so I figured a lot of people think the Classic > Pro.
 
I really don't see the point of either option. 1 is the definition of being stuck in the past, and there's no guarantee that the mainstream would be willing to buy this Nintendo set-top box just to replay old games. 2 is too little too late, and would be almost certainly be met with a tepid response just like the Wii U. There are three avenues worth pursuing with their next console, IMO.

1. Build up goodwill towards the Nintendo brand by investing in new IPs, reviving dormant ones, venturing outside the comfort zone of well-established series (also known as the Link Between Worlds treatment) and rolling out a unified account system. Riding that positive momentum, release a Wii U successor that leapfrogs the PSBone into the next generation with an 8 to 12 month headstart. Moneyhat third parties for next-gen ports of their biggest IPs if necessary.

2. Try to find the next Wii Remote, whatever that may be. Incredibly risky and could drive the company even further into a corner if it backfires.

3. Or a combination of 1 and 2.

Good points, whatever they do is risky but I really can't see them leapfrogging PS4 and Xbone tech in 2016 tbh, it would require a massive case / PSU / thermal envelope (which brings with it the change of overheating) and of course there is the price issue. IMO a Nintendo console should never cost more than $249 even with full third party support. Judging by what they are pulling off with a 176GFLOP GPU on WiiU, I'm not sure Nintendo would ever want or need a console more powerful than PS4, esp as the dev costs just continue to rise with more powerful hardware.

Their refusal to use IP's like Starfox, F Zero, Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, Mother / Earthbound, and Pokemon on home console is rage educing. Mario, MK, Smash and Zelda games are good but how long until people tire of them if we are looking at the long term future of the company.

I also think they should set up an American based studio just for sports games to fill the gaps left by EA. Call it 'Nintendo' Golf, Tennis, Soccer, Football, Baseball ect and use all the characters like in Smash. Fun sports games with World renowned characters and decent online mp would be a killer app in itself for their consoles imo and a huge hit with families.

I don't see why they take a gen and stop trying to innovate with their controller and just innovate with software. Create a bunch of new IPs to push really hard and create their next big franchises. They have the talent. Otherwise we'll end up like this gen where it seems more like they made their USPs to sell the system without too many ideas behind it.

Totally agree, they have to realise that innovating controllers just for the sake of it is a bad idea and the vast majority of console gamers are happy with dual analogue stick controllers anyway. With the current pro controller they have a very solid base to build on (improved analogue triggers are a must though).
 
What I want for next iteration of the DS line are these features.

I want it to be a modified slate design like the 2DS but slightly longer/wider.
Two circle pads
L/R ZL/ZR buttons
I want the top L and R buttons to be like the ones on the Game Cube.
The system would use slightly wider cards. That's the medium that handhelds should use.
I want them to use the same size screen as the normal 2DS, but just double the resolution. 1600x480/640x480. This way, older titles would still look the same and newer titles would be much sharper. I know everyone wants 1080p on a handheld, but the screen size would be wasting it for the most part and this keeps costs down while still making it better.
It would just be a single capacitive touch screen with a resistive touch barrier over the bottom. The resistive turns off when it's not playing 3DS/DS games. When playing games made for it, the system lets you choose between capacitive on the bottom or resistive on the bottom. The top "screen" would always be capacitive. I already find myself instinctively touching the top screen on the 2DS even though it doesn't do anything.
Just double or triple the processing power on the unit and get some good games out there for it. Keep backwards compatibility and we're golden.

I know some people will complain about the lack of a hinge. Eh. I have mini cracks on my 3DS XL hinge and while my DS, DSL, DSi, and DSi XL never developed cracks, I know too many people who had units that did. 2DS slate style is better, really.

But that's what I want for a handheld. Also, remote play style features on it would be sweet. Yes.

Edit: As for Haptic Feedback? Naw.. that's not cheap enough yet. Flat speakers are though. Put the speakers behind the screen. three speakers. One behind the top part of the screen and two behind the bottom part of it. The top speaker would be more like a sub woofer. In some games, you could make it just vibrate slightly at a low frequency to give off the feel of vibration.
 
I would be happy with Vita level raw power but displayed at 720p. The kind of power would be perfect for Nintendo's franchises and as third parties have shown on Vita, they are not interested spending budgets of over $10 million on handheld games anyway.

I really hope they stay away from gimmicks this time, people just want good looking Nintendo games on the go for a low price point. A great OS, UI and Virtual Console are a must aswell.

I feel Nintendo have one of the most valuable things in gaming in the form of their VC, if they insist on not putting at least NES games on iOS then the World needs another way to play them on the go.

For both their next home and handheld consoles I think Nintendo needs to think extremely simply, no gimmicks, just get the basics right and once they increase their market share they can add on other things with future consoles.

Great post. I agree wholeheartedly.
 
Not entirely accurate. Accelerometers and gyros were fairly new tech at the time. So were 3D screens, as well as 60 fps very low latency wireless video and huge amounts of embedded DRAM.

Indeed.
Actually, during last gens, they've always introduced something that wasn't available to the general public in that way.

DS - the first major gaming device to use touch screen as input method
Wii - the first major gaming device to implement accelerometers, gyroscopes and, then, movement controllers, redefining the interaction between the user and the game
3DS - first major gaming device to use stereoscopic 3D without the need of glasses (actually, one of the first devices overall doing that)

As you can see, what DS and Wii did redefined how the user could play a game, interact with it, representing major steps for the industry.

3DS, instead, "limited" itself to just a visual feature, not as significant as touch / movement sensors for gaming, and also something not everyone can enjoy / some people are actually scared of. This lack of new steps in interaction made 3DS a device that sells good / great, but 99% thanks to the games. Which is great, but games alone (especially without Touch-Generationesque games), in the current portable environment, don't make you sell like Ds (which was a though target to begin with), but it could also sell less tha Wii. However, it's still a feature not used in this way before, and that made people (and major developers) excited back then, and can still attract some people.

...And wonder what Nintendo platform introduced something that was already so common to not result not even as innovative as 3D? That's right, the Wii U: it represents just an extension of the DS thinking to the home market, when there's already 3DS using the touch interface like DS ddid,without even talking about smartphones and tablets. Yes, off-screen play is great, but it's not an interface evolution, or something as attractive as no-glasses-3D for the generl customer.

Haptic tech, instead, represent something far more similar to the DS and Wii days: a next step in the interaction with games, a huge one. It's true that Steam controller uses it as well, but Nintendo would be one of the first with haptic touch screens.

As already said, it needs to be seen if implementing it will be possible for a massive scale production. Mobile tech is advancing as fast as light, so much that in late 2016 a gaming-focused handheld device can perfectly output Wii U kind of graphics (less polygons, better textures / shaders) and be cheap enough, but haptic tech? That's the main question. If it's possible to use it AND to stay under the 200$ consumer price limit, then they should totally embrace it.

It's obvious there should be games using it right from launch, but that's another matter, common to any console in the world. :D
 
I still really wish that the Motionplus tech was integrated into the Wiimote right from the start. Maybe we would've had less mindless waggling.
 
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