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Next Wave of Wii 3rd Party Games
- Thread starter BostonZelda33
- Start date
RiskyChris
Banned
Gigglepoo said:
The only thing I see Wii changing is a scaling back of the arms race. MS isn't suddenly going to have a shitty online service next-gen and they certainly won't abandon the production of games for their incredibly rich userbase.
Edit: I guess you might not want waggle-box 720. Sorry if that's the case.
PkunkFury
Member
Minotauro said:
The reasons the Wii is cheap and under powered are the same reasons we are seeing mini game collections and underdeveloped games on the platform, or perhaps you have forgetten how truly abyssimal the Gamecube's performance was last gen. Understand that most retailers didn't even want to grant Nintendo shelf space this go around. That's part of the reason for Wii Sports being bundled with the system. It allowed higher profit margins which became a bigger retailer split.
Much like no one wanted to sell another Nintendo console, no one wnated to develop for one, either. The cube had lost all outside support a good couple of years before it died. The only game of note was RE4, which, of course, was ported away. No one wanted to develop for the Wii. No one would have been willing to learn a new architecture simply to have their games rot on another third place system. It should be clear to anyone familiar with the industry as to how this resulted in ports and mini-games. When you have nothing in the works for the system, and you've already tied up all your resources in larger projects, obviously there's only one way to go. As the market equalizes and better games start emerging as leaders, these ports will fail harder and harder until they aren't worth the money. At this point, developers will either need to step up, or step out. Which they will choose is, unfortunately, still unclear and on a case by case basis.
you claim you are upset with Nintendo for not going the full hardware route, but why? They did something different, thus opening the market to options. You can still get your hardware fix from either of the other 2 companies, so what is the real issue here? Are those companies missing something the Wii has? If so, you're dissatisfaction should be split between both options, and if not, you should be happy to simply ignore the Wii's existance. It isn't aking away from what the other two are offering.
titiklabingapat
Member
What happened here? The thread exploded after such a lull.
ksamedi said:
Do you really think the size, price, and Wiiconnect24 have anything to do with the success of the Wii? The Wii is successful because people think it's really cool that you can swing your arm around and watch a character onscreen hit a tennis ball.
This is really becoming quite tiresome. There's really only so many times that I can go over the same arguments over and over and over.
RiskyChris
Banned
ksamedi said:
I'm going to have to agree with the above to posters. Engineers are paid well for a reason,
ksamedi said:
LPC is a marketing gimmick.
But the problem so far is that all your complaints are ..just ..hopes..dreams of game concepts that would be cool if the Wii was more powerful.Minotauro said:
I mean..
How do you know that developers are hampered by the lack of power?..They know about the specs..and they know how to make the best games out of it..so is not like they are getting limited..heck just look at the makers of Zack & Wicki..and how they were talking about the concept of the game being made because of the Wii, not hampered by it.
I think this article is a great read for this topic:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27076
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27076
RiskyChris
Banned
ksamedi said:
Why can't the Wii be more powerful while running, but enter a low power mode when in standby? There's no reason for the GPU to have any effect on power consumption during WC24.
RiskyChris said:
Probably because of architecture, it actually goes into a low powermode when off but because the chip already is so power efficient, the low powermode allows it to stay on for years without you noticing it.
EDIT: Wiiconnect is not the only reason, low power also means low noise, which is the ultimate goal.
RiskyChris
Banned
ksamedi said:
Listen, I'm a computer engineer to preface this:
To run WC24 in theory all you'd need is an ethernet controller powered and connected to some hardware to interpret incoming packets. That's it.
PkunkFury
Member
Minotauro said:
Then should you not also be upset with Microsoft and Sony for not introducing new, interesting control options? Particularly Sony for not bundling the Eyetoy with the system as they should well have (this pisses me off to no end). You wouldn't need to wonder what the Wii could have done with powerful hardware, if the more elite console choices were bundled with every option. It's a two way street. We have no complete options this gen because everybody left something out. Gamers who want to experience it all are stuck with owning multiple consoles. In a way, this is a good thing since it may force some of us to become more open minded.
Finally, the Wiimote may be hampered by the technology down the line, but right now it is the attitudes of developers and the quick buck nature of the market that are holding it back. Elebits, Trauma Center, and Wii Sports were all cheaply made, quickly developed launch games (heck, one was a DS port). We are seeing much more restrictions on what the Wii can do based off developer's attitudes towards a Nintendo system (and Nintendo's own mucking about with software that should have launched on their dying cube) than based on the Wii's hardware. Games like Prime 3 and Galaxy should at least give us an idea of what we can expect when the wiimote is married with the Wii's full power, but it's going to take dedication to make polished games, much like it does on any other system.
This is where the issue of the Wii costing 50 dollars more and being a bit more powerful falls apart. People aren't using the Wii to it's fullest capacity now. What makes anyone think they would sink the time or money to make their games even better in the event the Wii were a little souped up? Nintendo themselves never pushed the Gamecube as much as the few 3rd parties that helped them along...
Well, i think this whole revolution thing is just marketing, and 5 years from now no one will even remember..Amir0x said:
Of course it would be better if they do the whole revolution thing again, but if they opt to go the easy route, i'm pretty sure they are in a good place to win next gen, and stay with their high profits (that's all that matters), even with nothing new. But only if Microsoft and Sony don't come with the next big thing..
Whatever guys. This thread is dumb. Amir0x wants more pixels for his Wii, Nintendo fans say ridiculous undefensible things to try to justify it because deep down they're really graphics whores, and everyone is super worried about the state of the gaming industry, except some of them think it's getting better and some worse.
But it doesn't which renders this argument useless.ksamedi said:
rakka said:
The plan is to keep it in the living room for broader audiance. Nintendos is even bragging these days about how much percent of the Wiis are placed in living rooms, its 75 percent or something. Thats where all the action is, the mom, the dad, the kids, all potential software buyers. dad buys Metroid, mom buys Wiifit, the kids love Mario, see the plan? They could release 4 titles on the same day and theoretically they could all be million sellers in one month if there plan works out in the long run.
The only reason I started having this discussion is because of that comment about "PS2 not being enough now." Because in a way, it implied I was being hypocritical merely because I had one standard last generation, and now I have a new standard.
My main point was only to illustrate that standards change, and they HAVE changed on both sides of the fence, and it's not some shocking thing when people have new expectations!
By the way I don't think this thread is dumb at all, I think a lot of people have made a lot of compelling points and it has been interesting.
Except that one dude!
My main point was only to illustrate that standards change, and they HAVE changed on both sides of the fence, and it's not some shocking thing when people have new expectations!
By the way I don't think this thread is dumb at all, I think a lot of people have made a lot of compelling points and it has been interesting.
Except that one dude!
PkunkFury
Member
RiskyChris said:
to be fair, I think this was an issue considered for the japanese market where power consumption seems to be a big deal. But anyone touting it over graphics and stuff on this board is reaching. After all, we are wasting power arguing about games on a computer...
I would love to have an HD Wii. Whenever I play 360 the graphics are so nice and crisp, especially in menus and text. A number of Wii games I've played, I've already thought to myself how it would have been better if it was in HD (e.g. In Red Steel, they have enemies snipe you who are only a pixel large in the distance. They're impossible to pull from the background, but HD may have given them form...). The internet browser would also be ace at high resolutions. However, I can certainly see why Nintendo put graphics low on their list, and I don't doubt that their next console will take full advantage of HD sets, once adoption rates and price of technology merit its inclusion.
Ok, this is as good a place as any for this: Ubisoft keeps getting raves for "exploiting the potential of the Wii" and "getting a 1 year head start on EA" etc etc. See this article:
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a47dX1r0s2yY
"It wasn't until May 2006, when attendees at the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles waited four hours to try the Wii, that competitors realized their miscalculation. By then, Ubisoft had a year's head start developing games that use the machine's motion-sensitive hand-held control. "
HOW DOES ONE SHODDY RUSH JOB (Red Steel) ONE DECENT MINIGAME COLLECTION (Rabbids) AND A DOZEN DEPLORABLE PORTS ADD UP TO A 1 YEARS HEAD START. IT DOESN'T. IT ADDS UP TO COMPLETE AND UTTER CRAP. ITS THE MOST WASTED 1 YEAR HEAD START IN HISTORY.
Ok rant over, carry on with the graphics discussion. Just had to get that off my chest.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a47dX1r0s2yY
"It wasn't until May 2006, when attendees at the Electronic Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles waited four hours to try the Wii, that competitors realized their miscalculation. By then, Ubisoft had a year's head start developing games that use the machine's motion-sensitive hand-held control. "
HOW DOES ONE SHODDY RUSH JOB (Red Steel) ONE DECENT MINIGAME COLLECTION (Rabbids) AND A DOZEN DEPLORABLE PORTS ADD UP TO A 1 YEARS HEAD START. IT DOESN'T. IT ADDS UP TO COMPLETE AND UTTER CRAP. ITS THE MOST WASTED 1 YEAR HEAD START IN HISTORY.
Ok rant over, carry on with the graphics discussion. Just had to get that off my chest.
RiskyChris
Banned
ksamedi said:
So basically you don't know how the stuff works on a hardware level.
ElFly said:
Costs of the HARDWARE associated with it will have dropped. While the initial start-up cost associated with adapting to new technology will always be more dramatic, and thus development costs will always be slightly less at the end of a gen than at the start, dev costs don't drop dramatically like hardware because asset creation is still an extremely expensive proposition. When you have to create assets for HD resolution, it likewise costs much more.
This is not going to change when Nintendo suddenly decides to jump into the modern age. PS2 gen high profile games still cost an average of 10mil to develop, and high profile PS360 era games will always cost an average of $25~30mil (adjusting for inflation, naturally). Unless there is a magic technology that makes asset creation much cheaper!
RiskyChris said:
Yeah i know, but its really not worthwhile to argue because your Wii is probably hot at the moment, which means there is processing done. We could discuss hardware on a more private level, PM me if you want to share your knowledge.
EDIT: you simply forget about handwritten code for Wiiconnect, there is code that is not embedded in hardware but runs through the CPU, think about friendcodes.
Amir0x, I really am curious about something. If HD assets and so on cost so much how come there are so many budget PC games, which have been running in crazy resolutions for years?Amir0x said:
Oh and asset creation can be made cheaper, especially with premade libraries full of common objects and/or procedural scripts for creating things like trees, rocks and grass (and other stuff but let's not go there).
RiskyChris
Banned
ksamedi said:
You do know that you can embed code into all kinds of chips that don't require a 700 MHz processor to run?
Sharp said:
Oh yes, obviously cheaper comes when you...
a.) Re-use engines
b.) Re-use assets
c.) Re-use associated scripts/libraries
This is what I was discussing about the start-up price of a generation always being higher, for these reasons. However unless you're suggesting that Wii2 will be nothing but re-using leftover PS360 material, developing a high profile game from the ground up to utilize Wii2's strengths will still cost a likewise supremely expensive price if it's the same power level of 360/PS3.
Amir0x said:
Which makes me wonder, what are MS and Sony going to do? Again, the huge leap in tech?
If so, games will of course become even more expensive to make. e.g $50 mil
And at the same time, the core gaming market isn't growing fast enough to support that...
Will be very interesting.
RiskyChris said:
Yeah but thats not flexible, and i dont know the reasons why they did it like they did but its true, for reference i can point you too the Iwata interviews where he explains the design fases of the Wii, i got my info from there, not because im a Wii guru. And the chips goes into a low powermode, so those 700mhz is not used, its much less then that but i dont know the exact numbers.
TheKingsCrown
Banned
i think its more like stay here for 1 generationAmir0x said:
RiskyChris
Banned
ksamedi said:
Wii probably didn't use a dedicated chip (which with the proper hardware can be updated on the fly) because they have an efficient CPU.
PkunkFury
Member
Amir0x said:
that's not true. By the time next-gen starts, tools for game engines and procedural generation of assets will have improved and adapted to the demands set by this generation's technology. They will still likely cost more than developing the average PS2 era SD game, but costs won't be nearly as expensive as they were at the beginning of this gen. This is why the companies with the bigger hardware are so adamant about stuff like 10 year plans. It's also the reason for Microsoft's XNA initiative tying console development to PC development, so that devs will be ready when their console branch sees a boost. The longer the development system and targets exist, the farther development costs for can drop drop. It's also why Nintendo stuck with a GC derivative chip for the Wii, since the system and output targets remain similar, devs can use their old tools on the new system.
When any company like Nintendo jumps in at the level Microsoft and Sony are currently operating at, developers will benefit from some (not all) of the tools created for the competing consoles. This is especially true for HD assets, which are developed using modeling and art packages that are console agnostic. Plug-ins and techniques developed to ease asset creation will be immediately accessible to any future HD projects. The first company to make another leap in technology will always be at a disadvantage for dev costs, since they are putting a strain on their developers to trail blaze new techniques and tools that will validate the new hardware. This period of research and experimentation is the reason dev costs balloon, and it's the reason we see doom and gloom articles about dev costs rising at the start of every new gen.