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[Azih]

So everyone should just be happy with what is feed to us and not complain when we dislike the way ONE company says we should be going? It doesnt work that way, people will vote with there wallets and hopefully windows sales will continue to decline until either they make a massive change in direction or come out with a breakthrough that makes Metro more than a worthless POS.

If MS insists on continuing this metro nonsense (which I suspect they do in order to push ads), they need to segregate it into Pro with no metro and plebeian with metro in win9.

The problem I have with this analysis is that assumes Windows started declining with Metro and Windows 8

That just isn't true. Take a look at:

http://www.netmarketshare.com/opera...=9&qpcustomb=0&qpsp=2008&qpnp=6&qptimeframe=Y

From July 2009 to July 2012 Windows share of the DESKTOP ONLY O/S market declined from 94% to 92%. Windows 7 was released in 2009. So the most well regarded desktop only Windows of all time which a lot of posters on GAF are adamant about using forever and ever eroded market share to a significant degree even without counting the rise of the phone and the tablet.

That is proof that the decline of Windows has almost nothing to do with O/S itself either way, but with a rapidly changing market. That Microsoft is attempting to change along with it isn't surprising in the slightest degree. No matter how much some gaffers may love Windows 7 the market has spoken on it and it is not what the future looks like. Windows 8 HAD to be different than what Windows 7 was if MS was in any way a responsible company and Windows 9 will NOT look like 7 if they are still one. That MS has retained everything that made Windows 7 great (minus a UI element from 18 years ago) and even improved it in Windows 8 (more efficient, more features) while still adjusting to this brave new world is to their credit and people too blinded by tiles to see it are doing themselves a disservice.

 

[Rageino]

They already took away skydrive and put it behind the MS account wall, took away the desktop application, anyone who now wants to use it like it was in 7 or 8 with a local account, has to do a backwards ass mapped network drive to the skydrive server, and it doesnt work all the time. The app is now only available as a metro app.

Why are you using Windows if you are so against having an MS account? That to me makes no sense.

With 8.1 Skydrive is more embedded than ever, I find it extremely useful when sharing files between my desktop and tablet.

 

[Pagusas]

Why are you using Windows if you are so against having an MS account? That to me makes no sense.

With 8.1 Skydrive is more embedded than ever, I find it extremely useful when sharing files between my desktop and tablet.

for my home PC its fine, for my studio computers its a train wreck as we were using skydrive to sync certain profiles and everyone shared a few local account driven Windows 8 machines. Now we have only a few choices, either 1 dont upgrade, 2 upgrade and drop skydrive support (already have, moved to dropbox), or 3 link everyones domain account with the MS account and lose the local accounts, which NO ONE wants to do, and noone should have to as thats is also there person account to Live and email and several other things.

And Im not against MS accounts, I'm against the handcuffs it puts on you. Suddenly you can no longer have simple custom passwords to your computer, you have to use the MS Account or change its password (what if I dont want that account on 2 of my 3 computers but still want to use skydrive to sync files? SOL) What If I want to use skydrive to sync files between my wife and I's computer under 1 account? SOL.

See the problem? They took something that was working PERFECTLY, it was doing all I could have wanted it to do, and doing it well. And now its gone.

 

[cbox]

Technology? You are just talking about the fucking UI. Fire whatever stupid fuck created this bullshit UI and the problem is solved. UI isn't technology, it is stupid trendism that alienates the existing user base to appear slick to starbuck drinking Seattle-ites.

Granted, the UI had nothing to do with why I didn't purchase Win8. If the OS had some huge actual technological improvements I would have purchased it and simply bitched about the UI. But it didn't have any large tech improvements. Just a new skin with a bunch of minor improvements that is not worth the money to me. I don't buy an OS to marvel at the UI like a god damn coffee shop blogger. I buy an OS to run my programs. MS needs to focus on efficiency and learnability rather than stupid ass UI bling.

No I'm not talking about the "fucking ui", I'm speaking towards the entire vision of 8. They're trying to unify all three sections and this is the best way for them to do so. I highly suggest you consider the options given to you ( in terms of start button replacements, etc ) before flying off the handle and making an ass of yourself. I'm not a "coffee shop blogger", but a power use who prefers 8 to any other OS. I didn't just get the thing installed and stare at the start screen like a 90yr old grandmother - I did what any other power user would do, and found out ways to make the OS environment my own. And if you can't get over the fact you can change almost every aspect, nobody is forcing you to use 8. Go back to 98SE and relive the golden age of the start menu.

I suggest you try actually using metro in conjunction with the desktop instead of just whining about.

PS, coffee shop bloggers use OSX and iphones, bud.

 

[Azih]

for my home PC its fine, for my studio computers its a train wreck as we were using skydrive to sync certain profiles and everyone shared a few local account driven Windows 8 machines. Now we have only a few choices, either 1 dont upgrade, 2 upgrade and drop skydrive support (already have, moved to dropbox), or 3 link everyones domain account with the MS account and lose the local accounts, which NO ONE wants to do, and noone should have to as thats is also there person account to Live and email and several other things.

And Im not against MS accounts, I'm against the handcuffs it puts on you. Suddenly you can no longer have simple custom passwords to your computer, you have to use the MS Account or change its password (what if I dont want that account on 2 of my 3 computers but still want to use skydrive to sync files? SOL) What If I want to use skydrive to sync files between my wife and I's computer under 1 account? SOL.

See the problem? They took something that was working PERFECTLY, it was doing all I could have wanted it to do, and doing it well. And now its gone.

You can't configure skydrive to connect to a different account under 8.1?

 

[Pagusas]

You can't configure skydrive to connect to a different account under 8.1?

Nope, its all linked to the account you log in with if you use an MS account, and you cant use skydrive with a local account anymore.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

GAF is pretty good at detecting flaws.

GAF is pretty fucking awful at detecting potential.

And Wtf is the potential here. Apple already does this. The difference between Apple and Microsoft is Apple has been doing this from the get, Microsoft hasn't and it's demanding something from customers that we never used Windows for in the first place. I avoided apples closed gardens to be on Windows, now I got to do the same for them.. Hells no.

 

[NotMyRealName]

Well, I guess you guys will always have linux

 

[Ghost]

And Wtf is the potential here. Apple already does this. The difference between Apple and Microsoft is Apple has been doing this from the get, Microsoft hasn't and it's demanding something from customers that we never used Windows for in the first place. I avoided apples closed gardens to be on Windows, now I got to do the same for them.. Hells no.

Neither OSX or Windows 8 are walled gardens, just their app stores are. You don't have to use either of them.

 

[noah111]

I genuinely feel sorry for people who still use Windows. I'm glad I got out when I did, had to go back to it a few days ago. I've never felt the urge to pull my hair out sweep over me so quickly.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Neither OSX or Windows 8 are walled gardens, just their app stores are. You don't have to use either of them.

If you want access to things that can take full advantage of all the features provided by the os, then yes you do have to use the app store since they have locked certain programs that can only use them behind it.

I genuinely feel sorry for people who still use Windows. I'm glad I got out when I did, had to go back to it a few days ago. I've never felt the urge to pull my hair out sweep over me so quickly.

Macs make me pull my hair out. If I see that spinning rainbow ball one more time in my life...

 

[lastflowers]

I genuinely feel sorry for people who still use Windows. I'm glad I got out when I did, had to go back to it a few days ago. I've never felt the urge to pull my hair out sweep over me so quickly.

I pull my hair out consistently when I use my MacBook air and iPad mini, and hated when I had to go into Linux clusters back in college. So I guess it works both ways

 

[NH Apache]

I genuinely feel sorry for people who still use Windows. I'm glad I got out when I did, had to go back to it a few days ago. I've never felt the urge to pull my hair out sweep over me so quickly.

I find 7 to be the best OS I've ever used, ignoring the fact that all the programs I use for work solely function on that operating system.

Really interested in Threshold.

 

[Hari Seldon]

The problem I have with this analysis is that assumes Windows started declining with Metro and Windows 8

That just isn't true. Take a look at:

http://www.netmarketshare.com/opera...=9&qpcustomb=0&qpsp=2008&qpnp=6&qptimeframe=Y

From July 2009 to July 2012 Windows share of the DESKTOP ONLY O/S market declined from 94% to 92%. Windows 7 was released in 2009. So the most well regarded desktop only Windows of all time which a lot of posters on GAF are adamant about using forever and ever eroded market share to a significant degree even without counting the rise of the phone and the tablet.

That is proof that the decline of Windows has almost nothing to do with O/S itself either way, but with a rapidly changing market. That Microsoft is attempting to change along with it isn't surprising in the slightest degree. No matter how much some gaffers may love Windows 7 the market has spoken on it and it is not what the future looks like. Windows 8 HAD to be different than what Windows 7 was if MS was in any way a responsible company and Windows 9 will NOT look like 7 if they are still one. That MS has retained everything that made Windows 7 great (minus a UI element from 18 years ago) and even improved it in Windows 8 (more efficient, more features) while still adjusting to this brave new world is to their credit and people too blinded by tiles to see it are doing themselves a disservice.

They lost a small amount of market share to OSX. OSX is not a cell phone OS. The newer versions have a "metro like" interface that is entirely optional and is more of a novelty way to display your applications folder. I have never once been forced to use that interface on my mac. I'd suggest the reason why Windows lost market share to OSX was because of the OSX switch to Intel, which has increased the amount of compatible programs that run on OSX.

 

[noah111]

I find 7 to be the best OS I've ever used, ignoring the fact that all the programs I use for work solely function on that operating system.

Really interested in Threshold.

I was forced to use 8. 7 is one of the best OS's i'd have to agree.

I pull my hair out consistently when I use my MacBook air and iPad mini, and hated when I had to go into Linux clusters back in college. So I guess it works both ways

You must be balding by now.

 

[Waaghals]

Regarding the names, I'll just point out right now that i will never Install "Durandal" on my computer.

And most definitely not "Tycho".

 

[Hari Seldon]

No I'm not talking about the "fucking ui", I'm speaking towards the entire vision of 8. They're trying to unify all three sections and this is the best way for them to do so. I highly suggest you consider the options given to you ( in terms of start button replacements, etc ) before flying off the handle and making an ass of yourself. I'm not a "coffee shop blogger", but a power use who prefers 8 to any other OS. I didn't just get the thing installed and stare at the start screen like a 90yr old grandmother - I did what any other power user would do, and found out ways to make the OS environment my own. And if you can't get over the fact you can change almost every aspect, nobody is forcing you to use 8. Go back to 98SE and relive the golden age of the start menu.

I suggest you try actually using metro in conjunction with the desktop instead of just whining about.

PS, coffee shop bloggers use OSX and iphones, bud.

So assuming I can hide or mod away all of the new UI features of Win8, I'm left with an OS running the same version of DirectX as I'm running now, with the same compatible drivers, the same solid 64-bit support, and slightly shorter boot times and other small improvements. Sounds l like win8 should be a free service pack for 7 not a numbered full release.

 

[Azih]

They lost a small amount of market share to OSX. OSX is not a cell phone OS.

Like I said, that report doesn't even show phone/tablet Operating Systems
http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_vs_desktop-ww-monthly-200907-201207

So really Windows went from around 93% (94% of 98.95%) overall to 82% (92% of 88.91%) of browser use during Windows 7 reign. As great as it is it did nothing to stop the massive bleeding to mobile and all trends indicate that mobile is going to continue to rise while desktops are going to continue to decline. I will say it again, the market spoke really loudly and Windows 7 is not what the future looks like.

 

[alexandros]

Leaving aside the issue of the Windows Store, my biggest problem with 8 and 8.1 is that it doesn't let me disable the Metro UI. If it was there as an option then Win8 would have been received much better by the public.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Like I said, that report doesn't even show phone/tablet Operating Systems
http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_vs_desktop-ww-monthly-200907-201207

So really Windows went from around 93% (94% of 98.95%) overall to 82% (92% of 88.91%) of browser use during Windows 7 reign. As great as it is it did nothing to stop the massive bleeding to mobile and all trends indicate that mobile is going to continue to rise while desktops are going to continue to decline. I will say it again, the market spoke really loudly and Windows 7 is not what the future looks like.

I would say that the market is speaking even louder now and that Windows 8 isn't what the future should look like either.

Leaving aside the issue of the Windows Store, my biggest problem with 8 and 8.1 is that it doesn't let me disable the Metro UI. If it was there as an option then Win8 would have been received much better by the public.

no i think microsoft knows better than all of us come on

 

[Warm Machine]

Leaving aside the issue of the Windows Store, my biggest problem with 8 and 8.1 is that it doesn't let me disable the Metro UI. If it was there as an option then Win8 would have been received much better by the public.

Metro is the start button. It functions pretty well the exact same way. In Windows 7 you click start and panel appears and you look at the tiny panel. On that panel all of your most recent programs are there or ones you pinned. You then have an option to click ALL Programs and get an exploded list.

In Win 8 you click Start, a Full Screen pinned apps selection appears and if you want to explode out you simply swipe down to see the mini icons and entire list of programs/applications.

Whether it is full screen or not is irrelevant because your focus is on the panel anyway.

 

[alexandros]

But it has no reason to exist on a desktop.

no i think microsoft knows better than all of us come on

The poor guys over at Microsoft thought they could be like Apple and tell people what to like. Not everyone likes being spoonfed, MS.

 

[Azih]

I would say that the market is speaking even louder now and that Windows 8 isn't what the future should look like either.

Sure which is probably why this Threshold thing exists and probably why Sinofsky got pushed out and WinRT most probably will die like WP7 did (both casualties of MS trying to transition to the new reality of how people use computers now while retaining their dominance of traditional desktop computing).

In any case I was responding to the idea that the decline of Window is due to Metro/Win8. This is demonstrably false and the universally praised desktop only Windows 7 lost a lot of marketshare over its three years as the main Microsoft OS.

 

[CriterionDog]

Unless they drop metro, get rid of the charms bar and bring back the traditional start button and functionality I am not moving to Windows 9. Windows 7 it is. I like 8.1, but there was no reason to change to metro. Seven works perfectly.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Like I said, that report doesn't even show phone/tablet Operating Systems
http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_vs_desktop-ww-monthly-200907-201207

So really Windows went from around 93% (94% of 98.95%) overall to 82% (92% of 88.91%) of browser use during Windows 7 reign. As great as it is it did nothing to stop the massive bleeding to mobile and all trends indicate that mobile is going to continue to rise while desktops are going to continue to decline. I will say it again, the market spoke really loudly and Windows 7 is not what the future looks like.

Again your statistics don't seem to make your case. Win7's reign coincides with the mass adoption of internet capable cell phones. A large amount of win7's users probably have an internet cell phone. The fact that Windows still accounts for 82% of all internet traffic even with droid and iOS seems amazing to me. That is billions upon billions upon billions of dollars.

 

[Azih]

Again your statistics don't seem to make your case. Win7's reign coincides with the mass adoption of internet capable cell phones. A large amount of win7's users probably have an internet cell phone. The fact that Windows still accounts for 82% of all internet traffic even with droid and iOS seems amazing to me. That is billions upon billions upon billions of dollars.

The internet cell phones are a very large part of my case. Not only did Windows marketshare drop while Windows 7 was out, the trend showed no signs of abating. Why the heck would MS make Windows 8 as a Windows 7.5 (as many here seem to want) in the face of that kind of a decline? Seven might work perfectly for many but it certainly didn't work for Microsoft's marketshare by any measure

The point is that the decline of Windows started far before anyone even knew what Metro was and it was pretty damn apparent during Windows 7s, Gaf's nominee for best Windows of all time, time as Microsoft's main OS in the market.

 

[inm8num2]

MS is persistent, I'll give them that.

 

[killer rin]

They already took away skydrive and put it behind the MS account wall, took away the desktop application, anyone who now wants to use it like it was in 7 or 8 with a local account, has to do a backwards ass mapped network drive to the skydrive server, and it doesnt work all the time. The app is now only available as a metro app.

You do realize that "Microsoft Account" is just the renamed version of "Windows Live ID" right? Its literally the exact same system, just renamed.

 

[Azih]

You do realize that "Microsoft Account" is just the renamed version of "Windows Live ID" right? Its literally the exact same system, just renamed.

Yeah but he's right that in 8.1 they baked the Skydrive stuff right into the OS and because of that there's really no good way of logging into Windows with one MS ID and then connecting to the Skydrive of another MS ID. That destroys a lot of workflows that MS really should have thought about if they really want Skydrive to compete with GoogleDrive and DropBox etc.

 

[gohepcat]

The internet cell phones are a very large part of my case. Not only did Windows marketshare drop while Windows 7 was out, the trend showed no signs of abating. Why the heck would MS make Windows 8 as a Windows 7.5 (as many here seem to want) in the face of that kind of a decline? Seven might work perfectly for many but it certainly didn't work for Microsoft's marketshare by any measure

The point is that the decline of Windows started far before anyone even knew what Metro was and it was pretty damn apparent during Windows 7s, Gaf's nominee for best Windows of all time, time as Microsoft's main OS in the market.

There is a massive disconnect between what people say about Windows and what the market actually shows. Plenty of armchair quarterbacks.

In the end they always switch.

 

[cbox]

So assuming I can hide or mod away all of the new UI features of Win8, I'm left with an OS running the same version of DirectX as I'm running now, with the same compatible drivers, the same solid 64-bit support, and slightly shorter boot times and other small improvements. Sounds l like win8 should be a free service pack for 7 not a numbered full release.

That's the short list, I don't know the full list of improvements.

 

[phazedplasma]

Gaben will deliver us from this evil

 

[Hilbert]

Gaben will deliver us from this evil

Yea! With an OS built around a unified marketplace!

 

[Vilam]

Way to listen to your customers MS.

 

[itsgreen]

Metro is the start button. It functions pretty well the exact same way. In Windows 7 you click start and panel appears and you look at the tiny panel. On that panel all of your most recent programs are there or ones you pinned. You then have an option to click ALL Programs and get an exploded list.

In Win 8 you click Start, a Full Screen pinned apps selection appears and if you want to explode out you simply swipe down to see the mini icons and entire list of programs/applications.

Whether it is full screen or not is irrelevant because your focus is on the panel anyway.

Yeah it's pretty much a very large start menu...

I only use it prob 0,001% of my time, and even then I'm instantly typing what I want automatically press enter and am instantly out of it...

 

[NotBacon]

YES. M$ continues to push users away, hopefully Linux sees a push from this. It's a shame many people aren't aware of the community and world of free software. No prices, no product keys, no bs. Just open code.

 

[Raistlin]

a big shitty walled garden aka "app store"

There is no change to the current Win8 model though.

 

[Pagusas]

You do realize that "Microsoft Account" is just the renamed version of "Windows Live ID" right? Its literally the exact same system, just renamed.

Yes, and what is your point? No one has mentioned anything about caring what the account is/intails, just that you are forced to use it as a login instead of a local account if you want features like skydrive, which use to be usable on a local account and now is not. You dont even have the option of the desktop application anymore, it wont allow you to install it if you have 8.1.

 

[GSG Flash]

I swear, Metro UI is like the UI version of Lightning from FF13.

Nobody wants it yet MS is adamant that it's not the UI that's the problem, it's the users.

Hopefully with Ballmer's departure, we'll get a CEO who is smart enough to realize that Metro UI is absolute shit on traditional PCs.

 

[Slavik81]

Whether it is full screen or not is irrelevant because your focus is on the panel anyway.

Maintaining context is important. Opaque, full-screen menus are unfortunate and unnecessary on the desktop.

It's a full-screen menu because fingers on a 10" tablet demand a lot of space. It's pretty much a necessity for tablets. They valued consistency between PC and tablet over optimizing the interface to each platform.

They improved a lot of things with 8.1, but this one is something I doubt they'll fix. It was a design decision and won't change unless they change their overall platform strategy.

 

[Damon Bennet]

The hate is always so astonishing, its like people decided to hate windows 8 without ever thinking about what makes it great. Especially avfter 8.1 nobody should be complaining anymore.

 

[Pagusas]

I swear, Metro UI is like the UI version of Lightning from FF13.

Nobody wants it yet MS is adamant that it's not the UI that's the problem, it's the users.

Hopefully with Ballmer's departure, we'll get a CEO who is smart enough to realize that Metro UI is absolute shit on traditional PCs.

lol so true. You have your lightening defenders who wont see anyone elses point of view and berate us saying how we "just dont understand", while the rest of us look at them with confusion and a bit of worry wondering what has made them so loyal and unwavering to such a thing.

I think this is all simple to understand: Metro works on Tablet, it does not work on Desktops

Desktops are being forced to use it. There is absolutely no reason a desktop program should be forced into full screen. There is no reason the start menu should take up the entire screen.

Someone at MS saw a future of only tablets and decided they had to force windows into that space across everything.

 

[dem]

The hate is always so astonishing, its like people decided to hate windows 8 without ever thinking about what makes it great. Especially avfter 8.1 nobody should be complaining anymore.

Yup

I was a Windows 8 hater for awhile. I complained pretty loudly to a few Microsofties at MMS last year.

After using it more.. its absolutely wonderful on "convergence" devices.
And its fine on regular desktops too. People are just stuck in this mindset that windows should never change.


I imagine Windows 9 will be the same thing as Windows 8... with a bunch of enterprise tweaks and a unified Windows App Store. Its the only logical step.

 

[SpyGuy239]

man I really don't get Microsoft. Why is it so difficult to make the desktop like Windows 7, then just add/remove a layer from that desktop version to make it more touchscreen friendly for tablets?!

Hell I'd be happy to use Windows 7 on a tablet, if I don't want to press start with my finger, then I can just create shortcuts on my desktop like it's been done for ages.

Then just add an app store for all devices.

Here now, for a corporation as huge as Microsoft, this can't be too muck to ask for? or Impossible? I really just don't get it.

 

[Slavik81]

And its fine on regular desktops too. People are just stuck in this mindset that windows should never change.

What this is such an annoying argument. There are plenty of different desktop environments that are better than Windows 8. Unity, for example, has a much better design.

 

[Somnid]

man I really don't get Microsoft. Why is it so difficult to make the desktop like Windows 7, then just add/remove a layer from that desktop version to make it more touchscreen friendly for tablets?!

Hell I'd be happy to use Windows 7 on a tablet, if I don't want to press start with my finger, then I can just create shortcuts on my desktop like it's been done for ages.

Then just add an app store for all devices.

Here now, for a corporation as huge as Microsoft, this can't be too muck to ask for? or Impossible? I really just don't get it.

Scaling down to mobile is almost a universal UI no-no because it never works. You build up complexity, you don't try to remove things after the fact.

Either way that's kinda how Win 8 already works. Desktop sucks for tablets.

 

[daviyoung]

The next step for Apple will be to unite iOS and MacOS, so MS are ahead of their main competitor in that sense.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

They can't. The Windows software development ecosystem requires significant access for software like AutoCAD, 3ds MAX, SolidWorks, Adobe Creative Cloud, and so on. Let alone to millions of applications that companies pay to get made to serve their enterprise needs.

Visual Studio alone, what drives most application development the world over, needs to be pretty transparent. People seem to forget that MS makes and sells loads of professional development tools while also making consumer level software.

I don't know. One possible roadmap is them slowly developing new sandboxed/limited versions of APIs that allow for these more intensive production pieces of software to run in the Modern UI interface.

Either way, if they are planning on keeping the Desktop around, they need to continue to smooth out the transition between the Modern UI and traditional Desktop, because as of now, the Windows experience on a Desktop is hey, remember Windows 7? Well this is Windows 7, except with widgets! And we're putting a lot of development time into these widgets!

 

[cbox]

lol so true. You have your lightening defenders who wont see anyone elses point of view and berate us saying how we "just dont understand", while the rest of us look at them with confusion and a bit of worry wondering what has made them so loyal and unwavering to such a thing.

I think this is all simple to understand: Metro works on Tablet, it does not work on Desktops

Desktops are being forced to use it. There is absolutely no reason a desktop program should be forced into full screen. There is no reason the start menu should take up the entire screen.

Someone at MS saw a future of only tablets and decided they had to force windows into that space across everything.

Really can't take your point of view when you've already stated your opinion as fact.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Oh god, instead of only having to worry about the forced melding of the tablet and desktop sphere, now we have to be subjected to the shoehorning of two other platforms into the whole one size fits all that MS seems to have a hardon for (and spectacularly bad at that, I might add).

Looks like I'm sticking with Windows 7 for a while.