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[RokkanStoned]

If you don't love our country enough to stand for the flag and those who gave their lives for our freedom, maybe you don't deserve to have a job, and maybe you don't deserve to live in our great nation.

Sorry, but this is just terrible. The country allows you to disrespect it, though that doesn't mean that doing so is wanted. It should however have no effect on whether you "deserve to have a job" or "deserve to live in our great nation". The issue here was that while the state accepts dissent amongst its citizens, that doesn't mean that the nation will like it or the way it's done nor that a company should have to accept employees disrupting their business.

 

[lil puff]

If you don't love our country enough to stand for the flag and those who gave their lives for our freedom, maybe you don't deserve to have a job, and maybe you don't deserve to live in our great nation.

This may be going to far imo.

I supported the kneeling, but I have to question, what did these players do during the offseason to help the cause? I'm sure some players did things, but they were not vocal enough for me to hear about it? I wish I saw more players come together and make a big statement about the cause and not make it all about the NFL.

Because the cause is bigger than sports.

 

[mckmas8808]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...remain-in-locker-room/?utm_term=.6d1af287c17d

I think this is a great solution. An individual player cannot be punished, but players also have the option of staying in the locker room and not participating.
Further individuals teams can make decisions so as a player you can make a decision on whether you want to play for that team or not.

It's not the worst solution, but it's terrible because it wasn't associated or talk through with the help of the players. No solution matters if the players aren't involved.

 

[PhendranaMama]

If you don't love our country enough to stand for the flag and those who gave their lives for our freedom, maybe you don't deserve to have a job, and maybe you don't deserve to live in our great nation.

Disgusting.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Kaep used to stand, until he didn't over police brutality.

So this what have you done for me lately, stand every damn time or get out of America thing is a bit much.

 

[lil puff]

I am actually kinda curious.

When people want you to get out of their country - as a natural born citizen with an ancestry of native American. Where would I go?

And how is transport dealt with? Does the govt pay for relocation? Travel? Or do you throw me into a truck and toss me over the nearest border? Do my wife and kids get rounded up too? How about my 2nd cousin that lives with me?

If you want citizens to get out of your country, at least develop a clear logistical plan of action.

Can you imagine being at work, protesting something. And along with being fired for breaking policy, they call the authorities, throw you in a van, and drive you straight out of here. Do you get to stop home and grab belongings?

It is hard to believe people support the ideology behind this.

 

[RokkanStoned]

Btw, something we should be able to agree on, Trump and Pence's reaction on twitter was pretty bad and just asshole-ish. It just played on the divisiveness of the ridiculous "culture war" that the left and the right in the US are waging. There are a few cases that I think Trump brashness works, but this was definitely the wrong case for him to act like this.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Kaep used to stand, until he didn't over police brutality.

Roberts used to stand, until all these school shootings.

Davis used to stand, until illegal immigration was such a problem.

Fowler used to stand, until our nation elected Trump.

Williams used to stand, until free speech was threatened on college campuses.

Johnson used to stand, until the environment became such an issue.

Thompson used to stand, until he decided not to, because something completely subjective that will always be a problem still happens to exist.

Exactly when was Kaepernick going to stand back up? What were the requirements of improvement that he was looking for? And if we somehow reached that improvement, would that be enough for another critic of our nation's police force? Would they then decide to kneel instead?

If "America is allowing bad things to happen" is the issue that prevents someone from standing for the anthem, why should anyone ever stand for the anthem again?

 

[LegendOfKage]

When people want you to get out of their country - as a natural born citizen with an ancestry of native American. Where would I go?

...

Can you imagine being at work, protesting something. And along with being fired for breaking policy, they call the authorities, throw you in a van, and drive you straight out of here. Do you get to stop home and grab belongings?

It is hard to believe people support the ideology behind this.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think you might be missing the point. It's not that most people who disagree with America's most vocal critics actually think that they should be forcibly removed from the country. Maybe some do, but they're idiots, so let's not think about them.

But if you're in a restaurant, and complain about the wait to be seated, and complain about the staff, and complain about the owner, and complain about the food, and complain about the bathrooms, and you talk about all the things that other restaurants do better, and you say the restaurant you're in and the people who eat there should be ashamed of the way that restaurant is being run, then yes, you're going to have some patrons who say "if you don't like it, get the fuck out of our restaurant!"

You. You're the one talking about how horrible it is, and how other places are better, so why are you still here? You should be the one who wants to leave.

That's even more so if you're a celebrity who loudly exclaims "If Danial Torp becomes the new owner of this restaurant, I'm leaving this restaurant!" And then that happens, and you don't leave, and you still complain about the restaurant.

While I don't support or agree with people who feel Kaepernick should get out of our country, I do understand the mindset behind that opinion. That would be something like "If you think police brutality in this country is so awful that you feel compelled to disrespect our nation's flag and anthem, then maybe you should just leave." Again, I don't agree with that statement, but I don't agree with kneeling as a form of protest either.

 

[zumphry]

If you don't love our country enough to stand for the flag and those who gave their lives for our freedom, maybe you don't deserve to have a job, and maybe you don't deserve to live in our great nation.

haha imagine being this delusional

If "America is allowing bad things to happen" is the issue that prevents someone from standing for the anthem, why should anyone ever stand for the anthem again?

this is like...so close, lol.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Exactly when was Kaepernick going to stand back up? What were the requirements of improvement that he was looking for? And if we somehow reached that improvement, would that be enough for another critic of our nation's police force? Would they then decide to kneel instead?

That's a private judgment

If "America is allowing bad things to happen" is the issue that prevents someone from standing for the anthem, why should anyone ever stand for the anthem again?

Do you have a point in asking this question?[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Exactly when was Kaepernick going to stand back up? What were the requirements of improvement that he was looking for?

Let's start with Dimitrios Pagourtzis being taken into custody alive, while Stephon Clark is dead.

 

[lil puff]

While I understand where you're coming from, I think you might be missing the point. It's not that most people who disagree with America's most vocal critics actually think that they should be forcibly removed from the country. Maybe some do, but they're idiots, so let's not think about them.

But if you're in a restaurant, and complain about the wait to be seated, and complain about the staff, and complain about the owner, and complain about the food, and complain about the bathrooms, and you talk about all the things that other restaurants do better, and you say the restaurant you're in and the people who eat there should be ashamed of the way that restaurant is being run, then yes, you're going to have some patrons who say "if you don't like it, get the fuck out of our restaurant!"
.

We are not talking about a privately owned place of business. We are talking about my country. The only one I know.

Get the F out my my business is not the same as Get the F out of my country. Is that the analogy you're getting at here?

Further, are you actually relating bad service at a restaurant to Police Brutality in this country?

Wow. Please come up with a better analogy to help me understand why it is ok to suggest that some citizens should pack their bags and immigrate to another country - because it goes way beyond what you think or don't think is appropriate protest.

 

[RokkanStoned]

Let's start with Dimitrios Pagourtzis being taken into custody alive, while Stephon Clark is dead.

This is the silliest comparison I've seen and it seems to be attempting some absurd logic of using singular instances to compare to each other (with an absurd amount of different factors) and presumably conclude from the differences some larger issue. Sorry, that doesn't work logically. It falls within using select individual cases and concluding an aggregate phenomenon from it, which would be fallacious. If you're doing a statistical multivariate analysis, you'd be able to treat a phenomenon as a broader issue, but you still wouldn't able to attribute it to individual cases, as it would be an ecological fallacy.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Get the F out my my business is not the same as Get the F out of my country. Is that the analogy you're getting at here?

Further, are you actually relating bad service at a restaurant to Police Brutality in this country?

Wow. Please come up with a better analogy to help me understand why it is ok to suggest that some citizens should pack their bags and immigrate to another country - because it goes way beyond what you think or don't think is appropriate protest.

I'm only comparing the general concept to the restaurant. I agree that police brutality is awful, and as I said, I don't support the idea of telling Kaepernick to get out of the country. I don't agree with that at all.

 

[Smoke6]

This is the silliest comparison I've seen and it seems to be attempting some absurd logic of using singular instances to compare to each other (with an absurd amount of different factors) and presumably conclude from the differences some larger issue. Sorry, that doesn't work logically. It falls within using select individual cases and concluding an aggregate phenomenon from it, which would be fallacious. If you're doing a statistical multivariate analysis, you'd be able to treat a phenomenon as a broader issue, but you still wouldn't able to attribute it to individual cases, as it would be an ecological fallacy.

Singular instances?

Man I’m sure as hell tired of hearing that shit being thrown around as if this shit hasn’t been going on nationwide!

I mean damn people!

White serial or mass murderes are walking, talking, and going to jail while unarmed black Bruce banners are being killed for want now?

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Singular instances?

Man I’m sure as hell tired of hearing that **** being thrown around as if this **** hasn’t been going on nationwide!

I mean **** people!

White serial or mass murderes are walking, talking, and going to jail while unarmed black Bruce banners are being killed for want now?
mass murderes are walking, talking, and going to jail while unarmed black Bruce banners are being killed for want now?

I answered the question concerning why Kaep began kneeling and he didn't like the answer so wrote a rage paragraph of gibberish.

And so the cycle continues.

I'm just glad Sterling Brown is alive.

 

[RokkanStoned]

Singular instances?

Man I’m sure as hell tired of hearing that shit being thrown around as if this shit hasn’t been going on nationwide!

I mean damn people!

White serial or mass murderes are walking, talking, and going to jail while unarmed black Bruce banners are being killed for want now?

Do you not understand the logical problem? Are you going to outrage and not think about how you'll actually have to treat a problem within what's logically possible?
Let's say I use an example that's more manageable. Let's say I have a class and there's someone else with another class in another town. If I suspect someone of bullying in my class and confronts them and I'm being really aggressive and I get them expelled (while they might not have done anything, let's say he hasn't). In the other class someone had hit someone, but the teacher talks calmly to the student and puts him in detention and contacts the police. Let's say the first one is poor and the second one is rich. What can we infer from this? That being rich allows you better treatment than being poor? No, we actually can't, even if the newspaper focuses on how this narrative, though that doesn't mean that it isn't true and it's an interesting hypothesis to follow. It might be that socioeconomics in it might prove to be different than what can be attributed to single cases, meaning that it might be factors that lead to geographical biases in environments, teachers and in the class cultural background of the student. If you want to treat prejudice as a general phenomenon, you'll have to treat it at the aggregate level, to notice patterns overall, and it needs to account for multiple explanatory factors, meaning that you need a multivariate analysis. If you want to judge the singular case, you'll have to treat it based on the evidence in the case.
It's inductive and it doesn't really tell us anything. A single case has to be considered on its own merits, you can't use aggregate data on it or treat it inductively on synthesising anecdotes. They're two different things, meaning that if 5 of my 30 students are black, that doesn't mean 16,% of students in Norway are black. Likewise, if 20% of the students in Norway are black, that doesn't mean that 20% of the students in my class are black.
If a newspaper reports numerous cases of immigrants doing something, that doesn't mean that it's actually possible to say that this is a problem with immigrants in general. You'd have to look at the aggregate. Even motives might be treated at the level, but that doesn't mean we can infer a motive in the singular case or if being an immigrant had effect in the singular case. This is the kind of thing that feeds prejudice.

 

[finowns]

I don't like protests during the anthem but forcing people to stand for the anthem is something you should actually protest during the anthem.

 

[TheMikado]

Man, this guy... and people wonder why they compare him to a dictator. Its like he has no clue of the entire history of the US as initial civil disobedience and protests against to government and loyalty to it.

Trump praises NFL's anthem policy, says protesters maybe 'shouldn't be in the country'

WASHINGTON – President Trump applauded the NFL's new national anthem policy Thursday and suggested players who protest "shouldn't be in the country."
"You have to stand proudly for the national anthem," Trump said in an interview on Fox & Friends. "The NFL owners did the right thing."
Players who don't stand, the president said, maybe shouldn't be allowed to play and "maybe you shouldn't be in the country."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...praises-nfl-policy-anthem-protests/639113002/

 

[RokkanStoned]

Man, this guy... and people wonder why they compare him to a dictator. Its like he has no clue of the entire history of the US as initial civil disobedience and protests against to government and loyalty to it.

Trump praises NFL's anthem policy, says protesters maybe 'shouldn't be in the country'

WASHINGTON – President Trump applauded the NFL's new national anthem policy Thursday and suggested players who protest "shouldn't be in the country."
"You have to stand proudly for the national anthem," Trump said in an interview on Fox & Friends. "The NFL owners did the right thing."
Players who don't stand, the president said, maybe shouldn't be allowed to play and "maybe you shouldn't be in the country."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...praises-nfl-policy-anthem-protests/639113002/

As I mentioned earlier, his and Pence response was shitty (and they should've been far less aggressive). However, this is also a sort of misrepresentation, as Trump suggests that protesting the National Anthem, the symbol of the nation, would indicate that perhaps you probably shouldn't be there and perhaps shouldn't be playing (not that they shouldn't be allowed to play). Still shitty, but it's far less of a political issues and more about US as a nation itself.

 

[TheMikado]

As I mentioned earlier, his and Pence response was shitty (and they should've been far less aggressive). However, this is also a sort of misrepresentation, as Trump suggests that protesting the National Anthem, the symbol of the nation, would indicate that perhaps you probably shouldn't be there and perhaps shouldn't be playing (not that they shouldn't be allowed to play). Still shitty, but it's far less of a political issues and more about US as a nation itself.

But that’s the exact part that worse, you do understand why that’s worse right?

I could care less if a private organization doesn’t let a player play in their privately owned league. I take issue with a highest official office in our government saying that maybe people who don’t perform a specific patriotic display shouldn’t be in the country and that’s far far far more frightening in a “free” nation. This isn’t NK or Nazi Germany citizens shouldn’t be having the government question whether they “belong” in this country for failing to perform specific “patriotic” displays. I mean that’s a terrifying mindset and thing to say.

 

[RokkanStoned]

But that’s the exact part that worse, you do understand why that’s worse right?

I could care less if a private organization doesn’t let a player play in their privately owned league. I take issue with a highest official office in our government saying that maybe people who don’t perform a specific patriotic display shouldn’t be in the country and that’s far far far more frightening in a “free” nation. This isn’t NK or Nazi Germany citizens shouldn’t be having the government question whether they “belong” in this country for failing to perform specific “patriotic” displays. I mean that’s a terrifying mindset and thing to say.

I don't view it as worse. It's not a command or anything, it's a suggestion that if you don't like the concept of the nation (not the state actors or specific parts) of America, then why are you here? It's not threatening you to do it or get deported, it's saying "if this is so bad and you hate, why are you here?". It's a sort of rebuttal to the ridiculous over exaggeration in regards to America itself. There's practical examples of it as well, like celebrities before Election Night.

 

[HStallion]

I fully expect the same people to be pissing and moaning when large chunks of teams don't go onto to the field what so ever during the anthem. That or protests occurring off field still garnering attention through a variety of means like social media.

 

[Bolivar687]

I don't think it was the right decision. American sport has a rich tradition of using the platform for issues bigger than the individual athletes. I don't think that's worth exchanging for somewhat better ratings. From what I understand, the average Monday Night game still gets more viewers than many of the championship title games in other sports. While some players were consulted, many were not, including those who have been most vocal about the protest and most engaged on this issue in particular. But the players union being left out of this decision speaks loudly of bad faith. All of this should be evident regardless of how you feel about the method of the protest or the substance of the position. And many players are visibly engaged with their communities and the political process, so this absolutely is not a case of millionaires only paying lip service to their values.

It also makes me uneasy when we turn the national anthem into a moment of reverence.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

I fully expect the same people to be pissing and moaning when large chunks of teams don't go onto to the field what so ever during the anthem. That or protests occurring off field still garnering attention through a variety of means like social media.

I'm not convinced the players are principled or in agreement because some stand, some kneel, holds hands, etc. If many didn't support Kapernick because of social pressure or they're not fully behind him, then what are they going to do when faced with fines? Probably fold and keep their heads down I'd guess.

My main issue with the disrespect the flag part though is that a US army vet supposedly told the QB to do it. I'm sure he's done more for the USA, then most. I think people should air their grievances about the protest method with the vet if he didn't know how to respect the flag.

 

[DragoonKain]

I can see it from both sides. I get why the players want to do what they do, although the frequency of police brutality is greatly exaggerated, and I get why the owners want to do what they want to do. They feel like it's hurting their bottom line and the NFL is a business. And as someone who isn't a super patriotic dude, I do understand there are people who are and not just shun them. If they have a hardcore feeling for the flag or anthem, then cool for them.

I honestly don't think there are any right or wrong answers here. There are very few people on political or social issues who have any kind of desire to listen to or sympathize with the other side, so it turns to the left going "if you don't feel my way, you're a racist and a nazi!" and the right goes "if you don't feel my way you're anti-American and a libtard" and no compromise and understanding occurs. So don't think either side is right or wrong, and don't think as long as this is the case anyone will be satisfied with any result or whatever policies they adopt.

 

[mckmas8808]

Roberts used to stand, until all these school shootings.

Davis used to stand, until illegal immigration was such a problem.

Fowler used to stand, until our nation elected Trump.

Williams used to stand, until free speech was threatened on college campuses.

Johnson used to stand, until the environment became such an issue.

Thompson used to stand, until he decided not to, because something completely subjective that will always be a problem still happens to exist.

Exactly when was Kaepernick going to stand back up? What were the requirements of improvement that he was looking for? And if we somehow reached that improvement, would that be enough for another critic of our nation's police force? Would they then decide to kneel instead?

If "America is allowing bad things to happen" is the issue that prevents someone from standing for the anthem, why should anyone ever stand for the anthem again?

That's a great question. And if the answer is never, then that's the answer. If you truly believe in the concept of America like they try to sell us, then you have to be okay with everyone not standing up during the national anthem.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't view it as worse. It's not a command or anything, it's a suggestion that if you don't like the concept of the nation (not the state actors or specific parts) of America, then why are you here? It's not threatening you to do it or get deported, it's saying "if this is so bad and you hate, why are you here?". It's a sort of rebuttal to the ridiculous over exaggeration in regards to America itself. There's practical examples of it as well, like celebrities before Election Night.

Except nobody is protesting the concept of America. You are too darn smart to start throwing on the cape for Trump here. What Trump is saying now is worse than what he's said in the past. The President can't float the thought that people that don't stand during the national anthem probably should leave the country. People actually care about what he says. You don't think within the next week, this isn't going to be something that his followers and people that work with him will start to repeat?

I can see it from both sides. I get why the players want to do what they do, although the frequency of police brutality is greatly exaggerated, and I get why the owners want to do what they want to do. They feel like it's hurting their bottom line and the NFL is a business. And as someone who isn't a super patriotic dude, I do understand there are people who are and not just shun them. If they have a hardcore feeling for the flag or anthem, then cool for them.

I honestly don't think there are any right or wrong answers here. There are very few people on political or social issues who have any kind of desire to listen to or sympathize with the other side, so it turns to the left going "if you don't feel my way, you're a racist and a nazi!" and the right goes "if you don't feel my way you're anti-American and a libtard" and no compromise and understanding occurs. So don't think either side is right or wrong, and don't think as long as this is the case anyone will be satisfied with any result or whatever policies they adopt.

1. It's not exaggerated at all! We are 15 years away from people telling us that it rarely happens at all! Now with technology, we see it happening so now you tell us it doesn't happen much. How much will it have to happen before people can start to complain about it? And when people talk about police brutality they are not only talking about the murders. They are also talking about being "ruffed" up, detained unlawfully, and lied on. Why don't you want to hold the police accountable? If it happens once, it's too much. Hold that person accountable. The police and court system wouldn't allow you to unlawfully beat up people or kill multiple people before they decided that it's too much.

2. Nobody will call you a Nazi or a racist if you want someone to stand during the anthem. But if you tell someone to leave the country if they don't show some so-called "respect" for the flag........yeah you might be letting something out that nasty and pure.

 

[RokkanStoned]

Except nobody is protesting the concept of America. You are too darn smart to start throwing on the cape for Trump here. What Trump is saying now is worse than what he's said in the past. The President can't float the thought that people that don't stand during the national anthem probably should leave the country. People actually care about what he says. You don't think within the next week, this isn't going to be something that his followers and people that work with him will start to repeat?

Bolded: What does the national anthem represent? Tell me, if it's not America, who does it represent? That's the concept of the nation. Just like the flag. In Norway we have the national anthem "Ja vi elsker" which starts with "Yes, we love this country" and the flag that symbolizes so much about Norway as a nation. You can protest the nation itself, or specific symbols. And it's okay to do that, as long as you commit to it. Say America as a nation is a lie and that it's not something one should honor and the nationalism as bad, or that the song is bad because of something. It's not a bad thing to take the position, but not committing to the symbolism of the protest is just weak. The NBA protests were great and stayed on message (police brutality). Kneeling before the national anthem is one of the weirdest thing to do, even if you commit to it, as kneeling is a gesture of submission. I mean, a simple gaffa tape over your mouth could accomplish much more symbolically.

Italic: Asking the question "why are you here, if you don't like the country?" (the country as a nation) through rhetorical means, which is how I interpreted Trumps "You should stand for the national anthem, if you don't maybe you shouldn't be playing, maybe you shouldn't be in the country". The game is American football and the second part implying "if it's so bad, why are you here?". As I said, the NBA shirt protest was great, emotional and impactful, Kaepernick's protest just made people care about the kneeling and the optics, instead of the message.

I don't really care what his followers repeat in their echo-chambers, though I am concerned that Trump might evolve it further and really step over the line. If people start increasingly physically attack people and try to force people to stand for the national anthem, then it's on Trump to deal with it. Was it because of what he said? Then he needs to call out those who do it, apologize if something was unclear and reaffirm that people are allowed to not stand for the national anthem (but private companies can have code of conduct for ceremonies/rituals, which they can fine you under the terms of your contract), even if one should ("should" isn't an imperative). Taking a normative position isn't something controversial in this, I'd say (as a lot of people have), and since there's no imperative in his talk, I just can't commit to outraging too much about those phrases.
I'm more concerned about how divisive and asshole-ish the responses were, especially on twitter, like Pence's ridiculous "#winning".

I hope the NFL players get to renegotiate some means of showing protest outside of the anthem as I believe in the concept of free speech (in the sense we should letting people express themselves), though I'm unsure what terms there are in regards to protesting before and after the national anthem. Are they not allowed to temporarily wear shirts or other things? I feel like people become so obsessed about the kneeling and staying on each polarized end in the case, that they didn't try to compromise on better solutions.

 

[HStallion]

I'm not convinced the players are principled or in agreement because some stand, some kneel, holds hands, etc. If many didn't support Kapernick because of social pressure or they're not fully behind him, then what are they going to do when faced with fines? Probably fold and keep their heads down I'd guess.

My main issue with the disrespect the flag part though is that a US army vet supposedly told the QB to do it. I'm sure he's done more for the USA, then most. I think people should air their grievances about the protest method with the vet if he didn't know how to respect the flag.

The players obviously did more than enough if the NFL is trying to change the rules like this to deal with the aftermath. I fully expect many players to keep protesting during the anthem and else where. Threatening far worse hasn't ever stopped protests before and actually spurs them on in many cases.

 

[mckmas8808]

Bolded: What does the national anthem represent? Tell me, if it's not America, who does it represent? That's the concept of the nation. Just like the flag. In Norway we have the national anthem "Ja vi elsker" which starts with "Yes, we love this country" and the flag that symbolizes so much about Norway as a nation. You can protest the nation itself, or specific symbols. And it's okay to do that, as long as you commit to it. Say America as a nation is a lie and that it's not something one should honor and the nationalism as bad, or that the song is bad because of something. It's not a bad thing to take the position, but not committing to the symbolism of the protest is just weak. The NBA protests were great and stayed on message (police brutality). Kneeling before the national anthem is one of the weirdest thing to do, even if you commit to it, as kneeling is a gesture of submission. I mean, a simple gaffa tape over your mouth could accomplish much more symbolically.

Italic: Asking the question "why are you here, if you don't like the country?" (the country as a nation) through rhetorical means, which is how I interpreted Trumps "You should stand for the national anthem, if you don't maybe you shouldn't be playing, maybe you shouldn't be in the country". The game is American football and the second part implying "if it's so bad, why are you here?". As I said, the NBA shirt protest was great, emotional and impactful, Kaepernick's protest just made people care about the kneeling and the optics, instead of the message.

I don't really care what his followers repeat in their echo-chambers, though I am concerned that Trump might evolve it further and really step over the line. If people start increasingly physically attack people and try to force people to stand for the national anthem, then it's on Trump to deal with it. Was it because of what he said? Then he needs to call out those who do it, apologize if something was unclear and reaffirm that people are allowed to not stand for the national anthem (but private companies can have code of conduct for ceremonies/rituals, which they can fine you under the terms of your contract), even if one should ("should" isn't an imperative). Taking a normative position isn't something controversial in this, I'd say (as a lot of people have), and since there's no imperative in his talk, I just can't commit to outraging too much about those phrases.
I'm more concerned about how divisive and asshole-ish the responses were, especially on twitter, like Pence's ridiculous "#winning".

I hope the NFL players get to renegotiate some means of showing protest outside of the anthem as I believe in the concept of free speech (in the sense we should letting people express themselves), though I'm unsure what terms there are in regards to protesting before and after the national anthem. Are they not allowed to temporarily wear shirts or other things? I feel like people become so obsessed about the kneeling and staying on each polarized end in the case, that they didn't try to compromise on better solutions.

The anthem does represent America. But if someone believes America isn't living up to her promise, then one should speak on that. Sitting there and acting like nothing is wrong doesn't make sense. And nobody should think Colin hates America. Wanting something to improve doesn't mean you don't like the whole thing. This is what Trump "wants" people to think. He wants you to think that protesting things in America = you hate America.

 

[lil puff]

I love you mckmas8808 . You said that well.

 

[LegendOfKage]

That's a great question. And if the answer is never, then that's the answer. If you truly believe in the concept of America like they try to sell us, then you have to be okay with everyone not standing up during the national anthem.

I guess I see it differently. IMO, you should stand for the anthem / flag because you don't have to. There are many places in the world where you don't have the luxury of having a choice.

I also think that depends on what you mean by "be okay." I don't think people should lose their job, and I don't agree with telling anyone to leave the country over it. I'm "okay" with people not standing for the flag / anthem, because having a choice is the entire point. But I don't agree with it either. In that specific sense, I'm not okay with it.

The same is true for hateful speech. I think it should be allowed, because I feel that no person or group could ever fairly and objectively police speech, context, and intent. But that also doesn't mean I'm "okay" with racial slurs. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

[lil puff]

Some of the things I read in this forum makes me think I am a part of a very bad part of society. I keep considering whether I should be a part of this place.

 

[Super Mario]

Too many people believe protesting is a one-way street where their side is the right one, and everyone should listen to them. News flash for the protesters, who are largely younger liberals: it doesn't work that way. Prepare for your protest to be met with protest.

The NFL players protested. NFL, like any other company, is terrified to touch anything that is remotely even close to a "racial issue." It significantly impacted NFL's business. Action was taken. The majority wins.

 

[lil puff]

But the other forum is wayyy too far over on the other side. So where to go to discuss things rationally.

 

[HStallion]

I guess I see it differently. IMO, you should stand for the anthem / flag because you don't have to. There are many places in the world where you don't have the luxury of having a choice.

I also think that depends on what you mean by "be okay." I don't think people should lose their job, and I don't agree with telling anyone to leave the country over it. I'm "okay" with people not standing for the flag / anthem, because having a choice is the entire point. But I don't agree with it either. In that specific sense, I'm not okay with it.

The same is true for hateful speech. I think it should be allowed, because I feel that no person or group could ever fairly and objectively police speech, context, and intent. But that also doesn't mean I'm "okay" with racial slurs. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Your speech is already policed in numerous ways including many laws on things like slander, threats and so on. Not sure why some of you act like this is a sudden or new phenomenon.

 

[mckmas8808]

Too many people believe protesting is a one-way street where their side is the right one, and everyone should listen to them. News flash for the protesters, who are largely younger liberals: it doesn't work that way. Prepare for your protest to be met with protest.

The NFL players protested. NFL, like any other company, is terrified to touch anything that is remotely even close to a "racial issue." It significantly impacted NFL's business. Action was taken. The majority wins.

Except it didn't significantly impact the NFL business. An NFL team was "just" sold for $2.5 Billion this week! The NFL is doing amazing and are swimming in pure profit.

 

[It's Jeff]

Protest on your own time, gentlemen. If you don't like it, cry into your paychecks. You're on the clock like the rest of us.

That said, I don't think ANYBODY should suffer work consequences for what you say when you're not on the job. Kaep wants to call out institutional racism, the man should be heard. And if your employer tries to hold that against you, the law should break them over their knee.

 

[RokkanStoned]

The anthem does represent America. But if someone believes America isn't living up to her promise, then one should speak on that. Sitting there and acting like nothing is wrong doesn't make sense. And nobody should think Colin hates America. Wanting something to improve doesn't mean you don't like the whole thing. This is what Trump "wants" people to think. He wants you to think that protesting things in America = you hate America.

See, you're just further reinforcing the point. "What is America's promise?", "What is America to me?", "Who is America?", etc. It just furthers division to attack the whole, because the the whole includes the parts in conjunction. If your left arms hurts, it shouldn't complain about the whole body, if it's caused by the right hands driving its nail into it. You don't reject the whole for fault of the parts.
Each American has a different experience of America, different perspectives and strong emotions connected to the idea of America. Attacking the flag or the anthem, if it is the symbol of America, misses its target and becomes more about America itself, rather than the issues you want to front. That's why I suggested far better options. This whole thing has become about everything other than the message, meaning that it was an utter failure.
In regards to Kaepernick, no I don't believe he hates America, I just think he made a poor choice and I do so because I feel like intent does matter. I do believe he tried something good, but what he did was something which caught attention on anything other than his message. He hit the wrong target, unintentionally, because his idea of what the action meant didn't necessarily transfer with the action he did and refusing to accept "America", just attacks so many things that aren't his target. But if he hated America, that would be fine as well, as long as you commit to it. Isn't that what's glorious in today's society? One of the things I'd love to see is "socialist" or "communist" being stopped used as an ad hominem by the right-wing in the US, because it's annoying, even more so when it doesn't even fit. Then you have a tendency to all too easily dismiss people on the right as well, with "nazi" and "alt-right" being an all too easily used pejorative.

Again, Kaepernick's protest was pretty bad functionally. People have a different experience of an event, like comparing the Sublime song "April 29, 1992" to a black person who viewed the LA riots differently, both perhaps agreeing on a lot, but also fundamentally disagreeing. Kaepernick's protest was just too broad and unfocused, while symbolically making little sense and making everything about the anthem itself.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Kaeps protest achieved its goals, just with the unintended consequence of getting blackballed.

 

[mckmas8808]

Protest on your own time, gentlemen. If you don't like it, cry into your paychecks. You're on the clock like the rest of us.

That said, I don't think ANYBODY should suffer work consequences for what you say when you're not on the job. Kaep wants to call out institutional racism, the man should be heard. And if your employer tries to hold that against you, the law should break them over their knee.

They are not on the clock like you. Being an pro sports player is different than most of our jobs. Since they are thankfully in a union things are collectively bargained. The owners can't just do whatever they want. The CBA actually means something.

If the players want they can probably go to court and contest this new rule.

Again, Kaepernick's protest was pretty bad functionally. People have a different experience of an event, like comparing the Sublime song "April 29, 1992" to a black person who viewed the LA riots differently, both perhaps agreeing on a lot, but also fundamentally disagreeing. Kaepernick's protest was just too broad and unfocused, while symbolically making little sense and making everything about the anthem itself.

You have to remember that this started out as a conscious issue. It was something personal to him that he didn't want to do. It wasn't a "protest" per say. It turned into that though. He didn't plan for it to get this big. Consciously he didn't want to stand for an anthem that didn't live up to its promise.

 

[HStallion]

It's like people forget athletes have used their fame and sport to protest since forever. Muhammad Ali was ripping America apart verbally whenever he got the chance during his fighting days even when it nearly caused the end of his career.

 

[Moneal]

It's like people forget athletes have used their fame and sport to protest since forever. Muhammad Ali was ripping America apart verbally whenever he got the chance during his fighting days even when it nearly caused the end of his career.

Was Ali employed by a team? Ali was his own brand and had every right to use that brand to protest in the way he did.

 

[RokkanStoned]

It's like people forget athletes have used their fame and sport to protest since forever. Muhammad Ali was ripping America apart verbally whenever he got the chance during his fighting days even when it nearly caused the end of his career.

No one's saying an athlete isn't allowed to protest, however, they like other people have to consider the terms of their employment. Unless we really want everyone to be able to protest wherever, even if consequences are disruptive towards your employer. Being true to your protest does require understanding this risk. A lot of Muhammad Ali's attacks was about specific things about America.
Like I said, I hope the NFL players get it renegotiated and made room for them to protest either before or after the anthem, or if during anthem, allowing them using various things to convey the message. I just think attacking national symbols are a bad idea, unless you're attacking them directly or attacking the nation as a construct itself.

You have to remember that this started out as a conscious issue. It was something personal to him that he didn't want to do. It wasn't a "protest" per say. It turned into that though. He didn't plan for it to get this big. Consciously he didn't want to stand for an anthem that didn't live up to its promise.

That's the personal aspect, but if it was personal, then it would be a personal choice, not a protest, as you say. Protests are expressive, they try to tell something to others, not yourself. Dealing with symbols that represent the whole is hard and it easily makes the whole the target, instead of the parts you dislike and want to change. It's like with speaking, even if well-intentioned, you can end up messing up your words and using words that can be interpreted many ways for others. Some might find it disrespectful and hitting them, which fuels anger and a desire for you to not say something, while others view it as something that was obviously about a specific thing and not at all long-sweeping and rage back. I think we all have to consider at times whether we communicate well enough, while also being careful of not immediately attack each other for our flawed communication. Being flawed and making mistakes is what we humans do, but trying to be better is what should aim to do. To a lot of people the "promise of America" is different and there's so many perspectives to take on it in a historical sense as well, while it also being unimportant as to how the experience of "the promise of America" is to individuals or groups. That's why when we communicate with hard symbols or if we miss, people activate a quite different response, that without considering the polarizing two-party system of the US.

By the way, perhaps you could initiate a topic about the protest in sport? As you seem well-knowledged, perhaps getting the message of the protest as an important tool in sports as well, might lead towards giving people a good perspective on why it's important for everyone, as well as highlighting why it's been an important tool for minorities.

 

[DragoonKain]

Except nobody is protesting the concept of America. You are too darn smart to start throwing on the cape for Trump here. What Trump is saying now is worse than what he's said in the past. The President can't float the thought that people that don't stand during the national anthem probably should leave the country. People actually care about what he says. You don't think within the next week, this isn't going to be something that his followers and people that work with him will start to repeat?



1. It's not exaggerated at all! We are 15 years away from people telling us that it rarely happens at all! Now with technology, we see it happening so now you tell us it doesn't happen much. How much will it have to happen before people can start to complain about it? And when people talk about police brutality they are not only talking about the murders. They are also talking about being "ruffed" up, detained unlawfully, and lied on. Why don't you want to hold the police accountable? If it happens once, it's too much. Hold that person accountable. The police and court system wouldn't allow you to unlawfully beat up people or kill multiple people before they decided that it's too much.

2. Nobody will call you a Nazi or a racist if you want someone to stand during the anthem. But if you tell someone to leave the country if they don't show some so-called "respect" for the flag........yeah you might be letting something out that nasty and pure.

It is, though. It's incredibly rare for innocent civilians to be shot by police officers, and for general brutality like beatings, tasings, etc, while it does happen and it is a problem, the frequency of it doesn't reflect the perception of the frequency. Since we see it on social media all the time it feels like it's happening more than it is. We have 325 million people in this country and thousands of police officers. It's mathematically infrequent. If every shark attack in the world was broadcast all over social media every time it happened, the perception would be "What's going on with the sharks??? They're out of control!" When in reality, how many millions of people go into bodies of water every year, even if 1,000 of people got attacked by sharks in a given calendar year, that would still be incredibly rare per the amount of times people go into bodies of water during the year and how much time many of the spend in that water.

That doesn't mean police brutality should ever happen. It shouldn't. However, there isn't much to be done other than funding police departments better, more decent humans join the force, and better training. Aside from that, there are assholes out there in the world. Asshole lawyers, asshole doctors, asshole plumbers. So yeah, there will be asshole cops. Put them in hostile environments where their lives are on the line and PTSD rates are through the roof, then it's absolutely impossible to prevent. A total lost cause. All you can do is make the best out of a shit situation and try to lessen it as much as you can. For all above reasons, it's legally difficult to hold police accountable because of what they go through and the dangers they face and their responsibilities to be on high alert to protect their communities, but it does happen. Plenty of officers have been held accountable for acting unjustly.

 

[loki 16]

It’s really stupid. I thought it was a veteran who suggested to kneel instead of sitting down.

 

[Moneal]

It’s really stupid. I thought it was a veteran who suggested to kneel instead of sitting down.

one veteran does not represent all veterans or even the majority of veterans or families of veterans.

 

[HStallion]

Was Ali employed by a team? Ali was his own brand and had every right to use that brand to protest in the way he did.

Ok fine how about ther black power fist at the Olympics? There are tons of examples for team sports and i'm not even sure why this matters.

No one's saying an athlete isn't allowed to protest, however, they like other people have to consider the terms of their employment. Unless we really want everyone to be able to protest wherever, even if consequences are disruptive towards your employer. Being true to your protest does require understanding this risk. A lot of Muhammad Ali's attacks was about specific things about America.
Like I said, I hope the NFL players get it renegotiated and made room for them to protest either before or after the anthem, or if during anthem, allowing them using various things to convey the message. I just think attacking national symbols are a bad idea, unless you're attacking them directly or attacking the nation as a construct itself.

Kaep was no doubt protesting huge facets of America by kneeling during the anthem including systematic racism inherently built into so many aspects of American life.