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[super funk]

Agreed. Worst. Thread. Ever.

 

[Great Rumbler]

Hey guys.

I like 3D metroid.

I like 2D metroid.

Bye guys.

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord, Why Don't We?

We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone,
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We?

Ebony, Ivory Living In Perfect Harmony
Ebony, Ivory, Ooh

We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone,
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive.

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We?

Ebony, Ivory Living In Perfect Harmony

 

[UncleGuito]

Agreed.

 

[140.85]

Retro succeeded in putting gamers behind the visor of the experience Samus had in Super Metroid. It's amazing.

Sorry N'Gai. Now I'm not sure if I trust your Killzone write-up.

 

[ksamedi]

They should just leave the 2D stuff to a possible WiiWare downloadeble game or handhelds. Either that or maybe if they have a very good concept to push the series further in 2D. The Prime series is great not because its so full of old school Metroid but because it is a unique Metroid game.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Here's why I will always be down on Prime. It is an FPS, no? Anyone saying otherwise is in a severe state of denial. Now, accepting that it's a FPS, how do you rate it amongst the best offerings in that genre last gen? If Prime was a PC game, it would be thrashed coming and going. It is a piece of shit compared to just about any PC FPS released in the last five years. There are FPSes with sci-fi themes that are way better than Prime. On the Xbox, it wouldn't even show in the Top10 in it's own genre. On the PS2, it would have a better time, just b/c the genre isn't well-supported. But dare I say, even a title like Killzone might deserve a vote over Prime.

Only on the severely game-starved Gamecube does Prime pass as a great game. It's the best FPS I own on the Cube. Of course, it's the only FPS I own on the Cube. Let's not label a turd a daisy just b/c the rest of the flowers have wilted away. PEACE.

The logic here is flawed. Critics may harp on calling Prime "FPA" as not being valid, but the problem here is that no matter /what/ you want to call it, the Prime games are not designed with the mentality of most first-person shooters. It's a more accurate analogy to call Metroid Prime to FPS games what Super Smash Bros. is to fighting games - technically in the same genre, but doing most things with a different slant.

God forbid any games do their own thing and not try to compete directly with the lowest common denominators in their genre. This attitude is part of the problem in the gaming industry in the first place. If the Prime series was just as 'good' as every other FPS by the standards it is being judged by here, it would be yet another identical me-too entry regardless of technical quality and much more easily forgotten in five years.

 

[beelzebozo]

so, from what i'm reading in the extended dialog, what he essentially says is "i liked the 2d games because i was better at them, and backtracking in 3d confuses me."

i like 2d and 3d metroid, but a common thread among people who dislike the prime games is that they're just really really bad at them

 

[Koren]

N'Gai is right, 2D for this franchise would have always been preferable, but if it HAD to go this route... well, damn, they did the best franchise conceivable with the concept.

I completely agree. I would have prefered 2D metroids, but I was really impressed how they managed to capture the feeling of the game in 3D.

I'd like to see a Metroid "2.5D" but I doubt I'll ever see one.

 

[Moderation Unlimited]

Need new 2d-style metdroid with vector-based 3d graphics a la Viewtiful Joe, Loco Roco, etc., etc.

 

[Baryn]

oh for god sakes

It's true... :-1

 

[Scribble]

I dunno, could you call Mario 64 a beat-em-up because Mario punches, kicks and throws his enemies? Lol.

 

[A Black Falcon]

I love Metroid Prime 1-3 and I love Super Metroid.

What's wrong with me, GAF?

Nothing, of course. Metroid Prime is an amazing, amazing game and is the second-best game on the Gamecube...

2D Metroid is great too, but Metroid Prime did an incredible job of looking and feeling like a Metroid game while moving into 3d and, yes, changing some things. You have to to bring it into 3d. The results were amazing though... Metroid Prime probably has the best production values of just about any game I have ever played. Music, graphics, design... wow.

Metroid Prime is not a goddamn first person shooter anymore than Morrowind is, and if that's the basis of your criticism, then your criticism is critically flawed.

This is also absolutely true. Metroid IS a first-person adventure, not a first-person shooter. Either way though, it's a fantastic first-person game. I mean, I greatly prefer FPSes on PC and think that console FPS controls are usually quite lacking (I particularly can't stand dual-analog FPS controls), and I thought that Metroid controlled just fine. The L and R lockon/look system works great for a first-person adventure game -- I do find the MP games hard, but that's as much because I'm not very good as first-person action games as anything else... The graphics are exceptional (easily among the best on the GC, and it does a great job of feeling alive -- the creatures, plants, environments, etc make it feel like it almost could be a real place... few games do this. Very few.), game design pretty good (only downside is perhaps a bit too much backtracking, which takes longer in 3d than 2d), level design amazing, music fantastic, gameplay amazing... I really don't see how people can attack it so harshly. Dislike it sure, not everybody likes everything, but to deny that it's an incredibly well made and well produced game? That's just wrong.

Oh yes, and I also really loved the scanning system. It reminded me of the conversations or 'look' command in a graphic adventure game, and that's awesome... being able to get all that background information on the game, world, story, enemies, etc by scanning things added a lot to the game, and its presentation was fantastic. Forcing you to read it all might have annoyed some people, but by making it optional, they came up with a great system. It made me with more games had things like this...

 

[Conrad Link]

Wow, I thought Metroid made one of the better transitions to 3D - Nintendo really know what they are doing when it comes to that.

I love 2D Metroid games like theres no tomorrow and wish the DS had a beautiful new one, but the Prime series is just as fantastic.

Put me in the love both camp.... really love. <3 <3 <3

 

[beelzebozo]

Wow, I thought Metroid made one of the better transitions to 3D

that's because it did.
people just really, really, really loved the 90s, and can't let them go

 

[stephentotilo]

hey guys,

I'm not surprised this thing is still raging. Just to clarify one thing: you'll see in my exchanges with N'Gai that he says his first Metroid game was Fusion. He's not basing his favoritism of the 2D style on nostalgia. He simply feels that the point of Metroid is better achieved in 2D than 3D. You'll see more from me and him on our respective blogs shortly

 

[sprsk]

hey guys,

I'm not surprised this thing is still raging. Just to clarify one thing: you'll see in my exchanges with N'Gai that he says his first Metroid game was Fusion. He's not basing his favoritism of the 2D style on nostalgia. He simply feels that the point of Metroid is better achieved in 2D than 3D. You'll see more from me and him on our respective blogs shortly

Well, clearly this is a lie.

 

[Muppet345]

I dunno, could you call Mario 64 a beat-em-up because Mario punches, kicks and throws his enemies? Lol.

Will you give Metroid its own arbitrary genre simply because it distinguishes itself from the mold as several other first-person shooters already do? Whenever people bring up the first-person adventure horseshit, it clearly demonstrates their lack of familiarity with the genre, and how they just assume every first-person shooter is Medal of Honor. Games like Half-Life 2, Bioshock, Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief .. these games and more separate themselves from the genre conventions but still fall within it (with some deviations, Deus Ex is an RPG hybrid and some people refer to Thief as a first-person "sneaker", but only as a more descriptive use of the FPS acronym), just as Metroid does. Why should it get special treatment over these games? If anything it is better to be considered among them.

 

[papercut]

Will you give Metroid its own arbitrary genre simply because it distinguishes itself from the mold as several other first-person shooters already do? Whenever people bring up the first-person adventure horseshit, it clearly demonstrates their lack of familiarity with the genre, and how they just assume every first-person shooter is Medal of Honor. Games like Half-Life 2, Bioshock, Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief .. these games and more separate themselves from the genre conventions but still fall within it (with some deviations, Deus Ex is an RPG hybrid and some people refer to Thief as a first-person "sneaker", but only as a more descriptive use of the FPS acronym), just as Metroid does. Why should it get special treatment over these games? If anything it is better to be considered among them.

Prime was built to take advantage of a different control scheme. I don't care what people call it so long as they don't brush it aside because it doesn't control like a traditional FPS. Honestly, it plays like no other FPS game that I've laid hands on, and for that I'm willing to give it its own sub-genre.

 

[human5892]

I agree with N'Gai. I never cared for Prime and Prime 2 was more of the same, only worse.

 

[avatar299]

Will you give Metroid its own arbitrary genre simply because it distinguishes itself from the mold as several other first-person shooters already do? Whenever people bring up the first-person adventure horseshit, it clearly demonstrates their lack of familiarity with the genre, and how they just assume every first-person shooter is Medal of Honor. Games like Half-Life 2, Bioshock, Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief .. these games and more separate themselves from the genre conventions but still fall within it (with some deviations, Deus Ex is an RPG hybrid and some people refer to Thief as a first-person "sneaker", but only as a more descriptive use of the FPS acronym), just as Metroid does. Why should it get special treatment over these games? If anything it is better to be considered among them.

ummmm a lot of people do.

Actually I remember a lot of people saying half-Life 2 was a better First Person adventure game than Metroid Prime, becuase of the levevl design, pacing and gravity puzzles.

 

[Muppet345]

Prime was built to take advantage of a different control scheme. I don't care what people call it so long as they don't brush it aside because it doesn't control like a traditional FPS. Honestly, it plays like no other FPS game that I've laid hands on, and for that I'm willing to give it its own sub-genre.

FPS is already a subgenre! People don't call Metroid Prime a first-person adventure for ease of conversation, they call it a first-person adventure for argumentative purposes, and that's retarded. Genres are loose categorizations by definition. If people are brushing aside Prime because it's called an FPS, they need to take the stick out of their ass and realize there is plenty of innovation and deviation within the genre, not that Metroid Prime is different because, oh, it's not an FPS, how could I possibly enjoy one of those?

Actually I remember a lot of people saying half-Life 2 was a better First Person adventure game than Metroid Prime, becuase of the levevl design, pacing and gravity puzzles.

Then those people are retarded, too.

 

[Steroyd]

Not this shit again.

And if there were no Prime people would be asking for a 3-D Metroid anyway.

 

[farnham]

if you dont like it dont play it.. nobody forces Ngai to play metroid prime.. yet a core group of people actually enjoyed prime.. and guess what.. some people started to know about metroid because of prime..

 

[ColR100]

After the calling out on Microsoft not long after they had said they were going extend warranties on 360's, and now this as well with Metroid..............damn, is he desperate for some articles and to create something that's currently hot on everyones tongue.............although yes, I do understand it's his job, but just screams desperateness. I mean some on, Metroid Prime was one of the best games last gen. Makes me laugh, seriously. :lol

I love the 2d Metroid games along with everyone else, but times change seriously.

 

[etiolate]

Metroid Prime and Super Metroid are more alike than Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. The 3d titles maintained almost all the trappings of the 2d game. The only thing really missing is speed boosts and running.

We can do a quick rundown

2d Metroid
vertical and horizontal platforming
Minibosses
Big bad bosses
overlapping level design
secret areas
beams, charged beams, beam types
missiles
super missiles
morphball
bombs, super bombs
puzzles
isolation
atmosphere
metroids
space pirates
cool monster designs
non-combative creatures and flauna
shoot enemies for refills
save stations, missile stations, map stations
double jumping, space jumping
speed boosts

3d metroids

vertical and horizontal platforming
Minibosses
Big bad bosses
overlapping level design
secret areas
beams, charged beams, beam types
missiles
super missiles
morphball
bombs, super bombs
puzzles
isolation
atmosphere
metroids
space pirates
cool monster designs
non-combative creatures and flauna
shoot enemies for refills
save stations, missile stations, map stations
double jumping, space jumping
scanning

What is missing so greatly from the 3d games outside of others' stubborn ideals? Being one of the people who thought the first Prime was going to be a decent FPS at best, and regretted the direction they took only to be proven very, very wrong, I have a hard time with people still latching on to a premade bias.

And if he really is stating this basing it on Fusion, then he is probably using the game farthest from the Metroid standard in the series as a starting point. Fusion broke the level design philosophy and the alien world feeling. Instead it's a flowchart level design on a human made biolab where you are ordered around by a computer.

 

[beelzebozo]

Then those people are retarded, too.

for reals

 

[Death_Born]

Backtracking is lazy game design, and taking the snail express Samus likes to travel on, it's even more annoying. It wouldn't be bad if she had a super-sprint mode or something. *looks at Metroid Prime case* *shakes head* WTF did I even buy this turd? PEACE.

"Snail express?" They fixed that in Metroid Prime 3, by allowing her to travel using her ship as a mobile save point.

 

[No_Style]

I thought we were friends N'Gai Croal. Friends don't hurt each other's feelings.

 

[pgtl_10]

Metroid Prime was better than Super Metroid but then again can you really compare the two? Comparing 2D Metroid to 3D Metroid is like Megaman to Megaman X. They both share a base concept but are considerably different from one another.

 

[nincompoop]

GAME X SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN MADE
BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT
EVEN THOUGH LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE LIKE IT
Nice logic there N'Gai

 

[Bartman3010]

Metroid made a pretty great jump to 3D. I personally disagree with the idea that the series never should've went 3D. You cant see what its like unless one tries, and Retro Studios definatley gave it a shot. I actually like the fact that the view was always in 1st person (For walking around anyway) and while the game wasnt as fast paced as the 2D Metroids, they certainly did a great job of keeping the tone of the series in a serious, somewhat gritty atmosphere.

Why do people say 3D never worked for Metroid? I personally think that it was not for the tedious back-tracking, rather forcing players to explore every other nook and cranny to find something like the 9 artifacts to open the last world and what not. Its Triforce shard hunting in Wind Waker all over again, and if that were the first 3D Zelda title, perhaps it would be given a generalization that Zelda never should've gone 3D, even though ever since Ocarina of Time people made the argument.

Its best to put it that Metroid could IMPROVE in 3D. Plus I seriously doubt that Nintendo is going to back away from the chance of making a 2D Metroid.

 

[calder]

GAME X SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN MADE
BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT
EVEN THOUGH LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE LIKE IT
Nice logic there N'Gai

Yes, that's exactly what he said and exactly his point. Thanks for the accurate summary, you've contributed a lot to this thread.

 

[Juice]

N'Gai is right, 2D for this franchise would have always been preferable, but if it HAD to go this route... well, damn, they did the best franchise conceivable with the concept. Prime III was an awesome conclusion.

/cosign

 

[open_mouth_]

agreed. 2D metroid with brilliant 3D graphics. it's an injustice that it hasn't happened yet.

 

[sprsk]

GAME X SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN MADE
BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT
EVEN THOUGH LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE LIKE IT
Nice logic there N'Gai

You live up to your net handle.

A list of stuff

Games aren't just a series of features. Prime 3 actually in fact doesn't have the overlapping level design anymore, unfortunately. It hardly had "isolation" too. They may do the same things, but the 2D ones just do it sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better.

 

[Baryn]

It doesn't have to be 2D, it just has to be 3rd Person. To go so far as to bring it back to 2D on modern consoles is ridiculous.

 

[etiolate]

Reading the blogs, I don't think N'Gai is a stubborn irrational nostalgist. I think he is just become a mentally lazy gamer, who has gotten use to fastfood software, straightforward(AND BORING) level design sans puzzles and just constant killing replacing pacing, thought and the various dying arts of videogame design.

So in reality, N'Gai is not in the minority at all. There are tons of people like him.

 

[mikeGFG]

+1 N'Gai.

 

[Baryn]

that's because it did.
people just really, really, really loved the 90s, and can't let them go

I'm sorry, but this is, hands down, the stupidest retort that always comes from the dull side of the argument.

Truth is, Metroid Prime is flawed, and not a very accurate rendition of what Metroid could be on modern hardware, and it has drifted ever farther from that goal ever since MP1.

 

[etiolate]

Games aren't just a series of features. Prime 3 actually in fact doesn't have the overlapping level design anymore, unfortunately. It hardly had "isolation" too. They may do the same things, but the 2D ones just do it sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better.

True about the changes in Corruption. The problem is the changes were made to appease opinions like N'Gai. Prime keeps making changes to appease those who will never accept it for what it is, a Metroid titlle in 3d. And what Metroid is about is perfecting and skillfully showing the various areas of game design. Like the multiplayer of Echoes, the ship hopping and multitudes of NPCs are things that aren't part of Metroid, but answers to complainers. I'd rather Retro ignore the ADD riddled gamer and replace ship hopping with a speed boost and maintain more of the overlapping level design. There is still some in Corruption, but its smaller overlaps.

And I don't think the 2d ones did everything so much better. Super is still my favorite, but it's not miles above Zerio Mission, Prime or Corruption. And Fusion is easily the worst in my opinion, which ironically was a modern 2d Metroid.

 

[Grecco]

hey guys,

I'm not surprised this thing is still raging. Just to clarify one thing: you'll see in my exchanges with N'Gai that he says his first Metroid game was Fusion. He's not basing his favoritism of the 2D style on nostalgia. He simply feels that the point of Metroid is better achieved in 2D than 3D. You'll see more from me and him on our respective blogs shortly

Then hes now probably insane. Fusion Really? I liked it but hell Prime is more Metroid than Fusion.

 

[OliveJuice]

Although Super Metroid is probably the best game in the series, N'Gai's comment that Metroid should never have been made 3D is completely false. The prime games were amazing. The Metroid Franchise just took a little venture from something they almost mastered. Prime is more of the franchise branching out into a new play style and trying to get more people into it then anything else (even if it really didn't). Nintendo has always made it known that there will always be a 2D Metroid, that's why they released Zero Mission, and Fusion, and I'm guessing the next Metroid game will be 2D.

 

[Dave Long]

The series would have ended on Gamecube if they had made a 2D game there, because no one would have bought it.

People who say this kind of thing don't really think about the market these games are released into at all.

 

[StevieP]

Retro did not make a Metroid game - they made a free-roaming Halo, complete with upgradeable Master Chief.

Metroid > Halo confirmed

 

[beelzebozo]

Reading the blogs, I don't think N'Gai is a stubborn irrational nostalgist. I think he is just become a mentally lazy gamer, who has gotten use to fastfood software, straightforward(AND BORING) level design sans puzzles and just constant killing replacing pacing, thought and the various dying arts of videogame design.

So in reality, N'Gai is not in the minority at all. There are tons of people like him.

this is pretty much the impression i got, as i mentioned earlier. it's really pretty tough to get lost and confused in a 2d metroid game, especially when you can just go left, right, up, or down, use your trusty 2d map, and bingo bongo, you're out of the woods. metroid prime is all about going deeper and deeper into that environment, feeling like you may be lost, and working your way out of it. fuck, he's dismissing the game because it's too complex, and the same people who incessantly bitch about nintendo's simple mini-games and non-games are around here are ready to jump on the bandwagon

 

[Woo-Fu]

I kind of agree with him.

If you're not going to deliver a traditional Metroid experience then why use the franchise name?

The Metroid Prime games aren't great because they're Metroid, they're great because they're great games. They could've been a completely new franchise while the Metroid franchise continued to deliver the traditional metroid gameplay that the fans wanted.

I don't think he is complaining about the games so much as the decision-making going on behind the scenes. And as such, I think it is fine to lament that with the advent of Prime you're not likely to see a AAA traditional style Metroid title ever again---except perhaps on DS.

 

[nincompoop]

Yes, that's exactly what he said and exactly his point. Thanks for the accurate summary, you've contributed a lot to this thread.

...

“Metroid” is a franchise that should never have made the jump from 2-D third-person to 3-D first-person.

Sounds to me like he's saying that Metroid Prime should never have been made. I guess we should just abolish every game that isn't unanimously popular.

 

[FightyF]

Screw what the gamers want and what the media says. Nintendo is here to make money and they're doing it and putting everyone else to shame.

That's what it all boils down to, really.

 

[StevieP]

Screw what the gamers want and what the media says. Nintendo is here to make money and they're doing it and putting everyone else to shame.

That's what it all boils down to, really.

Microsoft is our saviour! Clearly they're not in the videogame business to make money.

 

[Suburban Cowboy]

Would be so awesome if the Prime series had been a brand new IP, and they kept producing console 2d metroids. Then again, I think there was intense pressure to bring Metroid into 3d, after the success of mario and zelda.

Earlier i claimed that Prime does not feel like Metroid, only fair to point out I also believe 3d Marios dont feel like Mario