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[Alexander DeLarge]

There's too many games releasing for me to care that Gone Home exists and was successful. I remember what gaming was like ten years ago and it sucked. The "indie revolution" has improved things immensely and unlike ten years ago, I'm actually getting some games to my hardcore tastes now. It's awesome.

 

[Paracelsus]

It really has, because the "art" notion doesn't come from people who love videogames (as in, playing games) and think as a medium they deserve better, but people who most likely wanted to do anything else but deal with videogames.

It's more or less what killed professional wrestling, when they started hiring failed tv writers and they turned it into a terrible soap opera.

 

[LegendOfKage]

the wiki says: Art is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative, conceptual idea, or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power.[1][2]

yeah, prety much anything we can sense could be art. Subjetive topic as fuck EDIT: Can something that is NOT art, include art whitin ? Cause games have music, graphics and audio desing, acting, writing, etc. is like all arts diciplines combined.

That's pretty much where I land on this as well. If someone takes paint to a canvas, no one has any issue with calling what they just made art. But if that same painting appears as an original design in a video game, hanging on the wall of some virtual environment, that's somehow not art anymore?

 

[AprXSihezIII]

Games are not art, but they can be art or contain art.

Suggesting games are inherently art by merely being games, is not something I can agree with. Though, if a developer said "our game was a work of art", I wouldn't come along and try to claim otherwise.

 

[IncognitoPanda]

Video games are art in the same way board games are art. For something to be art, it requires intention. Is the game that is being made nothing more than artistic expression? That's rare.

Video games are products that contains art. Just like a movie or board game or website. Unless it is made so that it can be displayed at an art gallery or stand alone as art, it is an entertainment product. You can call the microsoft logo art, but art is not what you otherwise associate with microsoft.

 

[InterMusketeer]

I skimmed through the article, so I might have missed something, but the point that seems to be made is: "we shouldn't call games art because that attracts certain people that criticize games in certain ways."

I agree with the problems they describe. There does seem to be a group of people who want gaming and games to "grow up" in multiple ways, and I don't like that either, but their solution isn't much of a solution. It's like burying your head in the sand in the hopes that the issue will blow over.

Games are art, whether that attracts people with the wrong intentions or not.

 

[Kadayi]

One thing i will stress is that Games have something that no other medium has that's interactivity and i enjoy it for that , it one of the reason just walking around a house in a game just to be told your'e a lesbian at the end doesn't entertain me , i can play La Noire and get a completely different type enjoyment outta that then i do outta the witcher 3. Gaming is so big these days there is somthing for everyone.

Agreed. interactivity is the core strength of the medium over others and I find it hard to get behind titles that don't utilize that to any great degree. I can appreciate something like 'Deat Esther' or '30 Flights of Loving' from an aesthetic perspective and as experiences, but to me, they're not really leveraging the medium's uniqueness. I think for myself one of the main aspects about the gaming experience is the water cooler talking with others and comparing notes about the choices we might have made, or our solutions to things and albeit it's generally the nature of titles to corral down you down to a fixed points, as long as there is some sense of flexibility in terms of how you can play from narrative choices through to strategies and approach along the way and that differential of experience can occur I think its all good.

As regards the 'can games be Art?' debate., As someone who went to Art College firstly I'd say 'of course they can be' anything that can elicit some form of connective response to a person can be considered Art. Wider recognition is generally the problem, but that's an establishment issue. I no problems with saying something like Journey is a piece of Art because it was an extremely engaging experience that has stayed with me ever since I played it years ago. That's what real Art does, it becomes part of you, of your tale.

 

[ipukespiders]

Games are entertainment. Hockey is a sport. The Mona Lisa is a painting. The Trash Heap has spoken.

 

[Arkage]

This article is a complete mess with a raging hatred boner for what the author calls "university-educated, trust-fund-having, hipster and casual gamers" and in particular hatred and anger for articles written about games talking about gender or other "SJW" topics. Niche gamer should just be renamed "SJW hating gamers" since it's clearly as politically extreme as WayPoint except in the opposite direction.

It's also a mess conceptually. The author says games shouldn't be art because it turns them into movies. That makes little sense as people don't identity "art" as movies unless it's an art house piece. How about the author just say games shouldn't copy movies. At least it would make more sense.

Then he goes on to rant about how social justice issues wouldn't be written about games had they not been labelled "art." This is also an incredibly stupid proposition, as social justice critics care about all media regardless of whether it gets the "art" label.

 

[ROMhack]

I think the breakdown stems from people who look at games in terms of design first, and those who look at games in terms of creativity. I'm in the latter group but I know deep down that I do so because I know nothing about the logic and coding that makes up games. I see it as aesthetics first and foremost, which is a thing strongly linked to emotions.

I think a lot of other people look at games from a coding/design perspective and see games as being a lot more logic-driven than we see presented in the final product. In fairness, I do sort of see where they're coming from too, even though it's a bit more mathematically-minded than what games now seem to represent in popular culture.

 

[PtM]

Also I'd just like to add that efforts to censor games and change a game developer's vision of a game is partially detrimental to "games as art" argument. The people who would want games to be censored are working against art because, if games are considered art, then that means that to censor a game is to censor art and thus damper and compromise a creator's vision. So it doesn't make much sense to me to criticize calling games as art based on people working to censor them.

I feel like Nichegamer completely misunderstood what it means for games to be considered art, why games are considered art, and what makes games fun.

Let me blow your mind: Art can be shit.

 

[Domisto]

I've had a closer look at the article but still not read it all because frankly I'd rather be playing something.

It's a shame they framed it around the games-as-art idea because it's an inaccurate scapegoat that clouds some otherwise interesting points in a scattergun stream of thought.

The main complaints seem to be:
- popular gaming media are a pretentious cabal
- lots of games are diluted by appeals to a mass/mainstream audience (read: money)
- morality police trying to censor games

These problems aren't going away regardless of whether games are art or not. And I have sympathy with each complaint.

The fact is as gaming advances and expands this was always going to happen. So we've got walking simulators now. Some 'games' might be best labelled as interactive media because they are so far removed from Space Invaders. I honestly don't care. There's room for all of it. Wasn't LSD Dream Emulator doing this on the PSX?

The sad truth is hardcore gamers are probably best off kissing goodbye to huge franchises like Star Wars because the mass market is too big for money hungry companies to ignore and they will lower the denominator to make those profits. Keep complaining about it. Speak up for what you want but it will probably be a minority voice that will have to settle for small victories and other game series designed with them in mind. It sucks I know.

The morality police will always be there whether it's against Barely Legal 48 or Dead or Alive 6 or Soft Porn Adventure. Again, it's up to us to speak up and say what we want and defend what is defensible. Even if it's visual novels.

As for the gaming press, if someone wants to give it more balance then great. I'd hugely welcome more sites that focus their reviews and articles on gameplay, systems design, and tech. And leave the cat-fighting over what is and isn't allowed behind.

 

[AlexxKidd]

That is definitely not art. That is post modernist trash.

Actually Dadaism predated postmodernism, but I get that you're not a fan. The point is, however, one man's postmodernist trash, is another man's art.

 

[Airola]

Are movies art?
Is music art?
Are paintings art?

Some are. Some aren't.

A painting is a painted picture made by a painter.
Music is collection of sounds made by a musician.
Movie is a collection of pictures made to come quickly one after another to make an illusion of moving pictures and it's often mixed with sounds, and it's made by a movie director and whoever helps him.

The word art can be used in different ways.
We can say something like "the art of making movies is something" or "the movie is art."
We can say the act of making a thing as an art. We can say the end result is art.
I think sometimes we have these two things mixed up.
Should we say every end result that comes from someone's art would be art?

I think that especially in video games people are quick to call the full game a piece of art if it only has something that reminds them of other things they consider art. People think classical music is art so to make a game feel more like art they will put classical sounding orchestral music on a game. Or they will look at the surface of the game and compare the visuals to other drawn things they consider art and then call the game art. Or they have watched movies or read books that have made them cry and they consider those movies and books art, so if a game makes them cry they will call the game art.

Making a visual thing does not mean the visual thing is art. It just means one has used the art of something to create something.

I personally think that art has lost its meaning a long time ago and we today call art entertainment and entertainment art. That's fine. But if I personally go to look for something "deeper" than that, I will look first and foremost something in a work that speaks unspeakable things. Spoken words, written words and drawn pictures become art when the meaning of what is said and shown tells us things we can't explain in other ways. There needs to be an underlying thing going on that by words or images or sounds becomes known even if it's not directly said. But then again, not everything hidden makes the thing art. Just having a political message hidden in a story doesn't necessarily make it art. The hidden thing must be about abstract things that are hard to put in words but what we can still understand. A political message that goes far into revealing things about the human condition I can see as art though. If we take a look at The Bible for example, I don't think every book in it is art or that every line of text in it is art. The long-ass list of people and their relatives through many many generations in the Bible is not part that is art, but a Psalm that tells things beyond the words is art.

I haven't played Journey, but for me that seems like a game that I could consider to be art, at least from all that I have heard of it. And it's not the visuals or the sounds that make it art. It's what it wants to reveal beneath the surface.


tl;dr
there is an art to make things, but the things we make aren't art by default

 

[ruvikx]

Actually Dadaism predated postmodernism, but I get that you're not a fan. The point is, however, one man's postmodernist trash, is another man's art.

Subjectivity has limits, i.e. or else the definition of insanity (& all other isms) itself has no meaning. So when a man looks at a toilet & says it's 'art', he essentially transgresses natural right versus wrong. The only scenario in which this would have merit would be if the person presenting the toilet is doing it for laughs (shits & giggles, pun intended).

But if a person actually seriously believes a picture of a toilet (as posted in this thread) is 'art', then no, he/she is either being deliberately contrarian (just to be different) or is insane.

 

[Airola]

One more thing.

I find it odd that being a painter is not enough. I find it odd that creating a painting is not enough. No. A painter has to be an artist. A painting has to be art.
It's as if they don't have value if they can't be called art. It's as if the word in itself brings value to the work.

We can appreciate a highly skilled painter even if we wouldn't call the painter an artist. Video games are legit created things where great skills and good thinking have been used to make an enjoyable product. Isn't that enough? What calling them art brings more to what they already are? Is it to make them look legit in the eyes of an ordinary person? Is it to make them feel more important for the player?

 

[Ogbert]

I’ll always maintain that video game design is not an art, it’s a craft.

Rather like designing an incredibly comfortable or elegant piece of furniture, the medium has to be tactile. The magic is in how the game ‘feels’ to play. It’s why I always return to Nintendo and Arcade games, that visceral quality.

I couldn’t care less for story driven, cut scene heavy games. Why bother? Books and movies do these things so much better.

 

[Virex]

Great article. Really enjoyed reading it

 

[Danjin44]

I’ll always maintain that video game design is not an art, it’s a craft.

Rather like designing an incredibly comfortable or elegant piece of furniture, the medium has to be tactile. The magic is in how the game ‘feels’ to play. It’s why I always return to Nintendo and Arcade games, that visceral quality.

I couldn’t care less for story driven, cut scene heavy games. Why bother? Books and movies do these things so much better.

What about games actually use their mechanics tell its story like NieR Automata, SotC, ICO and 999?

 

[TheGreatYosh]

Actually Dadaism predated postmodernism, but I get that you're not a fan. The point is, however, one man's postmodernist trash, is another man's art.

Thanks for the somewhat informative reply. It's not about me being a fan or not. Ruvikx said it much better than me with his effort post.

 

[Battlechili]

Let me blow your mind: Art can be shit.

Well yeah. Just because something's art doesn't mean its good. Michael Bay's Transformers films are art but that doesn't mean they're good.
There are some good video games though. And some bad ones.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I'm half and half on this.

For starters art is a very vague, subjective term, anything can be art, so yeah, that includes video games.

On the other hand there has been a rising pretentious attitude about gaming over the last decade or so that goes hand in hand with the SJW attitude, Anthony Burch is a perfect example of this, a decade ago he was a big "games as art" guy, now he's a big SJW chode, there is a throughline there I think.

I think the problem stems from people getting confused and thinking all art is political, that's not the case, art is not an inherently political thing.

I think overall though the attitude does need to be that a game is a game first and foremost and a game's main goal is to simply be fun to play, not make you rethink your life or whatever.

 

[CrustyBritches]

The art of games is gameplay. The moment when the sum of the parts becomes less than the singular vision that arises from communion of the player and machine.

 

[mayhemking]

Metal Gear, Castlevania, Fallout, Doom, Sonic the Hedgehog are fucking works of art. You can't convince me otherwise.

 

[EventHorizon]

Games most definitely can be art. From old school BioWare games to the latest Until Dawn and Detroit: Become Human, the story was the most important part. If you are trying to argue story isn't art, then you've lost the debate before it has even begun.

 

[lukilladog]

I don´t believe games in general are art, but that article is pure appeal to consequence fallacy.

 

[Bakkus]

The funniest thing about these discussions are how the naysayers are always going with the narrative that stories in books and live action are so great a lot, let alone most of the time, when that couldn't be further from the truth. When it comes to books, I personally am not a fan of storytelling which forces you to read multiple sentences countless times which describes what the people are wearing, their reactions to various events, etc.

 

[ickythingz]

Why does anyone actually care to go out of their way to say video games aren't art? It literally takes tons of artists to create the work...

 

[Enzo88]

This discussion is trite.

This is the definition of art according to the Oxford Dictionaries:

"Art is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative, conceptual idea, or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power."

So according to this definition, video games are definitely art.

Now, if by art we mean, in a more common sense, a creation worthy of particular praise for its undeniable qualities, just like in any other creative activity, just few video games qualify as such.

 

[Redshirt]

Now, if by art we mean, in a more common sense, a creation worthy of particular praise for its undeniable qualities, just like in any other creative activity, just few video games qualify as such.

Eh. Wasn't this the same kind of thinking that was being rebelled against in the '60s (fine vs contemporary)?

 

[Iaterain]

"Video games aren't art" you can say it about everything, even about the art itself. For example: "Picassos's paintings aren't art! It is a product!" It is that easy.

The thing is, what is art is impossible to define because it is subjective to every person.

p.s. "Some call it trash, I call it art (treasure)"! (c) Skyrim trader.

 

[Enzo88]

Eh. Wasn't this the same kind of thinking that was being rebelled against in the '60s (fine vs contemporary)?

I guess, but what i wanted to stress is that in the end it`s a useless discussion on definitions.
Any creation can potentially be art.

 

[Humdinger]

Depends what you mean by "art." Art can mean any creative product -- which would qualify most games. Or art can be defined in a "high art" sort of way, as something that broadens your perception or appreciation of the world, causes you to see things in a new way, is transformative somehow. Very few games (but probably some) qualify by the latter definition.

It's not the "games as art" thing that has dragged the hobby down, though. That actually seems to have come and gone. From my pov, it is a variety of other things, like ballooning budgets, hypercritical gamers, SJWs, etc. that drag the hobby down.

 

[Clear]

"Games" are a pretty broad church at this point in time, so trying to tie them down to some sort of singular, universal formulation is a fallacy.

Hell, film can be art, but not all films are art films; and games are far more varied in form, construction and intent.

Seems to me this is a similar argument to the "everything is political" thing; its just about whether you choose to look at the work through that lens.

 

[Mercer_CAR]

All forms of creativity have been degenerated into neo liberal, nihilism.

Modern art (paint and sculpture being two of the oldest and thus furthest along the path of utter vapidness) devolving from pure expressions of the beautiful majesty found in nature to “here is a urinal” are examples of the canary in the Cole mine. The fact people applauded it only proves that humanity has been bought down along with the culture.

Having said that, I don’t mind there being a million types of games and don’t think there should only by RPG, FPS and PVP genres. However, there is some truth that by claiming games are art that it in some ways does give some low tier developers some slack to release products that can only be considered a game because of the platform it was released on.

 

[Airola]

Why does anyone actually care to go out of their way to say video games aren't art? It literally takes tons of artists to create the work...

They are first and foremost drawers, musicians, painters, writers etc. Not necessarily artists.

One does not become artist by learning to draw well. One becomes an artist when they start to make art. A picture in itself is not art. There is the art of drawing but that doesn't mean the drawing is art.

 

[Sushen]

The article goes into a bit more detail of the evolution of gaming from Ultima to Fallout and within a series. Then:





Source: https://nichegamer.com/2018/08/29/o...thinking-they-are-has-dragged-down-the-hobby/

This article is pretty long and purely an opinion piece, but I enjoyed it because I've never held the idea that "games are art". If they are art, why would anyone on the art side try to ban certain games or tell a director what they should/shouldn't put in their art?

Game is no art as in this so called gaming site is not a journalist nothing more than some dudes with qualifications writing their random opinions as if it’s worth something.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Games are created by artists in large parts so of course they are art.

 

[Brumfieldhm]

This is an infuriatingly simple minded argument , and the fact that so many people agree is quite shocking to me.

Any medium can be made into art ... clearly this man has never experienced or been open minded to anything related to expanding the mind .


He’s fighting for mainstream commercialized games that have artistic merit of course , but they are mostly made to make shit tons of money for a large company . A game like Inside wasn’t made with that in mind , it was to create a new , simplistic , curated reality and tell you a story , each frame looking like a masterclass of cinematography and lighting.

 

[hecatomb]

art1
ärt/
noun

1. 1.
   the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
   "the art of the Renaissance"
   synonyms:fine art, artwork
   "he studied art"
   
   Seems to me like video games are art, so haters can go back to their penis sculptures for all I care.
   

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

I dont know who is this "Niche Gamer"

But i know that for me this is art.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

That's a good point. Great gameplay can age well but technology ages fast. Cinematic games don't hold up as well, I find.

It reminds me of this tweet I had fun reading recently:



It seems game journalism has always had this idea that presentation supersedes gameplay and sometimes it lead to laughable things like this in hindsight.

How much Ignorance in this tweet LOL!!

Nice contribution!!

 

[joe_zazen]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes, so while I won't say "games are not art", I definitely think we have overstated their role as art and it has definitely dragged down the hobby. A few consequences of this push, as far as I can see it:

- narrative matters far more, so you have reviewers who are either woefully unqualified to comment on said narrative, or they dwell on it too much. This pulls attention away from things like examining a game's glitches, controls, overall pace, player volition, etc. which is a common oversight in modern reviews.

- emphasizing art emphasizes production value (not always, but often). Gaming budgets have ballooned largely due to licensed music, voice acting, high-fidelity texture assets, etc. Games don't cost $75 million because they spent too much time fine-tuning the controls.

- a focus on narrative conflicts with challenge. When you buy a game, you "deserve" to see the ending of our wonderful story. Can't make it too hard.

- a focus on narrative conflicts with mechanics. Cinematic camera doesn't always jive with gameplay, and of course we need our 10-minute cutscenes because when there's no challenge to overcome, you have to satisfy players somehow. QTEs are in service of "art", not gameplay.

- art and narrative can hinder a game's replayability. Ideally, great art assets should be layered on top of an enjoyable framework of mechanics. But when the point of the game is to play tourist and experience all the various art assets, it guts any notion of replayability and longevity.

- emphasizing audiovisual assets in gaming has been a delight to marketers and PR departments, but we have created a monster of overhyping games during pre-release based on those assets alone.

Lastly -- and most-bigly -- art is not the essence of game design. Mechanics are. The feel of a game will supersede nearly any shortfall of the art assets.

Instead of claiming "games are not art", a more comprehensive statement would be "games are entertainment products, and we have overemphasized the audio-visual aspect of these entertainment products at the dire cost of their fun-value and their excellence of mechanical design". I'm all for artsy games. They have a place. But we should be celebrating what makes videogames a unique form of art (the intersection of art-assets with mechanical control). Copying Hollywood has taken us in the wrong direction.

Great post.

First, the video game industry defines its products as “entertainment software” which includes more than just games. So yes, entertainment software can be art. I believe it is much harder to argue that video games are art because games are sets of rules and parameters that are created to give players a space to play in. Games are play.

It isnt a binary game/non-game thing, of course there are hybrids. One thing you’ll notice though, all the truly great and long lasting pieces of entertainment software that become a long term part of people’s lives are 99% game-play: League, Minecraft, Fortnight, Rocket League, WoW, NetHack, Dwarf Fortress, etc etc.

Personally, I don't like ‘games’ that are trying to be art and give me some kind of message or feelings because I believe non interactive media does a far far better job of this. What entertainment software creators can we mention alongside such artists as Shakespeare, Wagner, Joyce, or Kubrick? None. And that is because the great game creators (Minecraft, golf, football, whatever) aren’t artists, but game creators. They get their own list.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

i wouldnt call games art either

 

[ickythingz]

They are first and foremost drawers, musicians, painters, writers etc. Not necessarily artists.

One does not become artist by learning to draw well. One becomes an artist when they start to make art. A picture in itself is not art. There is the art of drawing but that doesn't mean the drawing is art.

You're going to tell me that a painting of a can soup is art, but not the stuff you see in video games? If you have the ability to create quality content on the scale we see in video games, that's art. That's talent. I don't even know what else to say since art is subjective. A picture is absolutely art, just because you deem it "not art" there will be plenty that disagree with you.

Unless you are the sole judge of what is considered art...

 

[oagboghi2]

I dont know who is this "Niche Gamer"

But i know that for me this is art.

Is that art or is it just art assets running in a executable program.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

Is that art or is it just art assets running in a executable program.

its pure art friend =)

 

[Danjin44]

Is that art or is it just art assets running in a executable program.

I would say the way they able bring that artstyle to life in 3D environment, I would definitely consider that as art.

 

[AlexxKidd]

Subjectivity has limits, i.e. or else the definition of insanity (& all other isms) itself has no meaning. So when a man looks at a toilet & says it's 'art', he essentially transgresses natural right versus wrong. The only scenario in which this would have merit would be if the person presenting the toilet is doing it for laughs (shits & giggles, pun intended).

But if a person actually seriously believes a picture of a toilet (as posted in this thread) is 'art', then no, he/she is either being deliberately contrarian (just to be different) or is insane.

What is not "art" about a toilet? Do you think the toilet crafted itself? That is exactly the point Warhol was making with the Campbell's Soup cans, "art" is what you want it to be.

Also it's extremely narrowminded saying "games are not art" as if videogames are this one hive mind union and all are created to be the same thing, and produce the same feelings. There are games I may classify as art, and there are games I may not. You can not tell me what art is to me, in the same way I can't tell you what it is to you.

The difference is I'm not trying to tell anyone what art is to you, the author of this article is. You can agree with him, but I don't recall appointing him the World Ambassador of Taste.

 

[joe_zazen]

What is not "art" about a toilet? Do you think the toilet crafted itself? That is exactly the point Warhol was making with the Campbell's Soup cans, "art" is what you want it to be.

Also it's extremely narrowminded saying "games are not art" as if videogames are this one hive mind union and all are created to be the same thing, and produce the same feelings. There are games I may classify as art, and there are games I may not. You can not tell me what art is to me, in the same way I can't tell you what it is to you. L

The difference is I'm not trying to tell anyone what art is to you, the author of this article is. You can agree with him, but I don't recall appointing him the World Ambassador of Taste.

Art seems to be a pretty useless word, like cool or fuck.