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[fredrancour]

A big question I currently have while looking at MK8 and how utterly amazing it looks is:

How are they going to reuse the Wii U's software? As far as I'm concerned they pretty much have to. A lot of it is top quality stuff that could be used to drive sales of a well put together platform; they must have cost a ton of money to make as the company transitioned to HD (they certainly took a lot of time); and they've reached only a tiny, tiny fraction of consumers.

So surely they'll want to leverage these awesome games in a way that goes beyond an active purchasing market of about 3 million customers. My question would be how they do that. The problem being that almost any new console won't have a second screen gamepad, and therefore 'porting' Wii U games won't be simple or obvious no matter what kind of computer architecture they're looking at.

But I can't believe that they're going to be happy letting MK8, Smash 4 and Zelda U die on a console that will end up with about 12m total sales without an amazing attach rate to mitigate the damage.

Pretty much all their existing core software already doesn't use the gamepad in a meaningful way. They would very amicable to minimal-effort ports. Nintendoland and wii sports club do make good use of the tablet, but for conventional games?

It seems like MK8 will do nothing with the gamepad besides have a horn button on the touch screen. DKC TF did nothing with it. Smash may do nothing with it besides have the option of offscreen play(is that a thing here?). W101 can already be played without touching the gamepad screen if you draw unite morphs with the right stick; they'd have to change the "indoors" thing where interior rooms show up on the gamepad screen only, but quite frankly those rooms were atrocious and their simplification would make the game even more amazing. 3D world had minimal touchscreen and microphone functionality in a couple levels that would actually require a tiny bit of adaptation I guess. I don't think NSMBU does anything besides project the game image to the gamepad. Bayo 2 is probably not going to use the gamepad in an irreplaceable way either.

I haven't played pikmin yet. I know using the gamepad screen/wiimote/both sounds awesome, but is there anything that absoultely would be unplayable with a recreation of the first 2 games' controls as the default control scheme?

Zelda U could be designed with the gamepad as an indispensable part of the experience. If they do that, it would be the only core title they're released on wiiu that would be difficult to port to other platforms.

 

[Griss]

Pretty much all their existing core software already doesn't use the gamepad in a meaningful way. They would very amicable to minimal-effort ports. Nintendoland and wii sports club do make good use of the tablet, but for conventional games?

It seems like MK8 will do nothing with the gamepad besides have a horn button on the touch screen. DKC TF did nothing with it. Smash may do nothing with it besides have the option of offscreen play(is that a thing here?). W101 can already be played without touching the gamepad screen if you draw unite morphs with the right stick; they'd have to change the "indoors" thing where interior rooms show up on the gamepad screen only, but quite frankly those rooms were atrocious and their simplification would make the game even more amazing. 3D world had minimal touchscreen and microphone functionality in a couple levels that would actually require a tiny bit of adaptation I guess. I don't think NSMBU does anything besides project the game image to the gamepad. Bayo 2 is probably not going to use the gamepad in an irreplaceable way either.

I haven't played pikmin yet. I know using the gamepad screen/wiimote/both sounds awesome, but is there anything that absoultely would be unplayable with a recreation of the first 2 games' controls as the default control scheme?

Zelda U could be designed with the gamepad as an indispensable part of the experience. If they do that, it would be the only core title they're released on wiiu that would be difficult to port to other platforms.

The thing is that there's a huge difference between 'just porting the code' to having to make new design decisions and changes to the game, however small. For example, the map in Pikmin being put back onto the start button, for example, and not being able to tap where you want to send a person - if they wanted to port Pikmin 3 properly they'd have to put serious thought into how the new map would work. It sounds minor, but it adds a huge amount of work, and you're getting a design team back involved rather than just a code porting team.

 

[ab.aeterno]

Console warrior bullshit? I'm not the one trying to discredit a gaming CONSOLE being the highest selling and highest profiting gaming CONSOLE device as a fad to justify a point of view.

What point of view am I justifying? Go ahead and finish that thought.

Meanwhile, I'm not discrediting shit. Saying it was a fad does not diminish the success it had, it explains it fundamentally. It argues the growth was unsustainable, the sales collapse inevitable, and that the audience, never being invested in the medium beyond this CONSOLE, were never a reliable audience.

We could discuss this until the cows come home, but honestly while grandma isn't coming back for more Wii bowling, that isn't who sold 9 games per console. Successful devices branch out into the mainstream in various ways. The DS, the Wii, the PS2 are all examples of this. The expanded market didn't come back for the PS3, and whatever expansion was fueled by the PSP to go beyond Nintendo's normal handheld demographics aren't coming back for the Vita. If you can't put that math together and continue to plant your fingers in your ears, then there's no point to continue to derail the thread. The Wii? Successful gaming console. The Wii U's poor execution doesn't change the cold hard fact.

See, this is why meaningful discussion is impossible. You're doubling down on an argument I'm not making, then effectively crying "checkmate!" when you argue against it. If I was solely arguing high sales -> low sales as making something a fad, which I've explicitly pointed out I'm not several times now, you'd have a point. But that's stupid, so that's not what I'm arguing. It's about the unsustainable explosive growth, sales collapse, loss of a large audience as soon as they were gained, and lack of brand power from a product that did gangbusters. The sudden explosion of popularity and attention as it captures the world's zeitgeist, followed by a quiet passing from the cultural consciousness. All of that, together, makes an argument for it being a fad. That you ignored this in my initial and subsequent posts to tilt at the windmill of sales makes this discussion pointless.

Yes, if the PSP or DS or PS2 had the same explosive growth, market collapse, and loss of brand awareness then you'd have the basis for a rebuttal. But instead your argument is "but these CONSOLES sold well too and had poor performing followups so you're wrong!" You're ignoring all the hallmarks of what makes a fad to argue against it, which is either disingenuous or myopic. Continue tilting at sales and attach rate windmills if you like, but until you bother to address what I write instead of what you think I'm writing, this conversation is pointless. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss the actual merits of my argument at more length.

 

[Freezie KO]

The thing is that there's a huge difference between 'just porting the code' to having to make new design decisions and changes to the game, however small. For example, the map in Pikmin being put back onto the start button, for example, and not being able to tap where you want to send a person - if they wanted to port Pikmin 3 properly they'd have to put serious thought into how the new map would work. It sounds minor, but it adds a huge amount of work, and you're getting a design team back involved rather than just a code porting team.

Pikmin 3 is my favorite game on the console, but nothing is done with the GamePad that couldn't be done with a pause menu and the pointer.

 

[Josh7289]

For what it's worth, Nintendo's Annual General Meeting of Shareholders seems to occur around the last Thursday of June every year. So for this year, that's June 26, 2014, a good two weeks after E3 for whatever that may be worth. That's the day the election of directors occurs.

 

[Soulscribe]

1) An unwillingness to accept or adapt to the changing trends with gaming, namely the presence of mobile and the demand for all-inclusive, internet-heavy devices

2) An insistence on maintaining the same business strategy they've had for decades, which is now proving to be more and more inefficient

3) A commitment to selling predictable, unimaginative software for shoddy, outdated hardware

4) An alienating presence in the software development space due to a "me first, you second" business model


This company needs a genuine rehaul. Iwata's showed us that he doesn't have a firm grasp on his own marketplace, especially with these changing times. Dedicated handhelds are on their way out. Videogames are now compartmentalized under either big-budget HD, small-budget downloads, or mobile. Nintendo JUST started embracing the former, but they've shown a total lack of preparation and foresight toward all the extra resources (and timeframes) involved. They've had 6 years to get ready. They don't have that big a presence on the downloadable content side because they've been wary about embracing it, but at least they're starting to make the transition now. And with DSs and Vitas on their way out they're gonna need to start preparing for the inevitable.

Also, start making new characters. You're a franchise/character company. Why aren't you making new ones?

 

[Mael]

What point of view am I justifying? Go ahead and finish that thought.

Meanwhile, I'm not discrediting shit. Saying it was a fad does not diminish the success it had, it explains it fundamentally. It argues the growth was unsustainable, the sales collapse inevitable, and that the audience, never being invested in the medium beyond this CONSOLE, were never a reliable audience.

Ah, the good ole' 'Wii customers' are not real customers.
I would have liked to say I hadn't seen that in a while.

 

[mantidor]

1) An unwillingness to accept or adapt to the changing trends with gaming, namely the presence of mobile and the demand for all-inclusive, internet-heavy devices

2) An insistence on maintaining the same business strategy they've had for decades, which is now proving to be more and more inefficient

3) A commitment to selling predictable, unimaginative software for shoddy, outdated hardware

4) An alienating presence in the software development space due to a "me first, you second" business model

None of these points are true. Specially the first two.

 

[Riki]

None of these points are true. Specially the first two.

Not only are they not true but it sounds like the ramblings of a bitter "gamer" that lives in his own reality.

 

[Anth0ny]

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Reminds me of John Carmack's comment about VR last week - that it makes converts on contact.

I think that's true for VR and it was for the original Wii. It's not for Wii U. It's a tired gimmick and a known quantity.

I have never seen a Wii U kiosk where people could demo the Wii U. If Nintendo believes that playing it makes people want it, they should be investing in those.

 

[FyreWulff]

I have never seen a Wii U kiosk where people could demo the Wii U. If Nintendo believes that playing it makes people want it, they should be investing in those.

I have, one at Target and one at a Walmart, and another at a FS in Canada.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I have, one at Target and one at a Walmart, and another at a FS in Canada.

Wow, we have a Wal Mart Supercenter, Target, Kmart, Best Buy, 2 Gamestops and a couple of smaller game shops and I have never seen one. I am in the US.

On the other hand, I have seen kiosks for the PS4, Xbone, Vita and 3DS.

 

[lenovox1]

Wow, we have a Wal Mart Supercenter, Target, Kmart, Best Buy, 2 Gamestops and a couple of smaller game shops and I have never seen one. I am in the US.

On the other hand, I have seen kiosks for the PS4, Xbone, Vita and 3DS.

Hmm, Nintendo reps must not service that area for whatever reason. I've seen playable Wii U kiosks in Jackson, TN.

 

[esterk]

Wow, we have a Wal Mart Supercenter, Target, Kmart, Best Buy, 2 Gamestops and a couple of smaller game shops and I have never seen one. I am in the US.

On the other hand, I have seen kiosks for the PS4, Xbone, Vita and 3DS.

Playable WII U demos are at every gamestop here except mall locations. I'm in north Georgia area.

 

[SwiftDeath]

Wii U Demo locations

http://www.nintendo.com/wiiu/events/

For example, near me in the bay area

 

[Shiggy]

1) An unwillingness to accept or adapt to the changing trends with gaming, namely the presence of mobile and the demand for all-inclusive, internet-heavy devices

2) An insistence on maintaining the same business strategy they've had for decades, which is now proving to be more and more inefficient

3) A commitment to selling predictable, unimaginative software for shoddy, outdated hardware

4) An alienating presence in the software development space due to a "me first, you second" business model

And that's only 4 major issues put into words pretty well. They need new leadership as fast as possible. In this century, I don't think that companies producing electronic devices for end users can succeed without being customer oriented. And that's where Nintendo fails right now.

 

[AzaK]

Haha. So appropriate.

 

[mantidor]

And that's only 4 major issues put into words pretty well. They need new leadership as fast as possible. In this century, I don't think that companies producing electronic devices for end users can succeed without being customer oriented. And that's where Nintendo fails right now.

This is absurd.

Again, those points make no sense. Nintendo is certainly keeping in mind mobile devices and internet, hence the gamepad, which didn't deliver, and miiverse, which is a good effort.

There's also the different business models they are trying with the way they are selling wii sports club or wiifit, their pricing scheme, day one digital and retail offers, not to mention the whole QoL thing. The Wii U is a failure but Nintendo is certainly not using the same business model as the Wii, that claim is baseless and sounds more like a rant to be honest.

 

[Shiggy]

This is absurd.

Again, those points make no sense. Nintendo is certainly keeping in mind mobile devices and internet, hence the gamepad, which didn't deliver, and miiverse, which is a good effort.

There's also the different business models they are trying with the way they are selling wii sports club or wiifit, their pricing scheme, day one digital and retail offers, not to mention the whole QoL thing. The Wii U is a failure but Nintendo is certainly not using the same business model as the Wii, that claim is baseless and sounds more like a rant to be honest.

Im not exactly sure about your understanding of the term "business model". Nintendo's business model is creating home consoles and handhelds which focus on software, not on services or standard features offered on other devices.

And well, the Gamepad isn't really anything someone asked for. It's just like a tablet, but done 10 times worse. And Miiverse is perhaps nice for Nintendo diehard fans but probably nothing that creates a lot of hype or something that would be missed.

Moving over to QoL certainly could mean a shift in the business model. Perhaps you might tell me what's that thing is actually about, I haven't seen it yet.

 

[metalslimer]

None of these points are true. Specially the first two.

Point 4 is certainly true. Nintendo has consistently developed their hardware and software with very little thought to 3rd party developers that has continued to the Wii U and 3DS. The other 3 points are somewhat true, but worded poorly. Nintendo has certainly claimed they plan on changing the model they've been working with for years now, but we;ve yet to see concrete evidence.

 

[1st Course]

man i hope iwata sticks around for awhile. if they put someone new in now, i don't think i'd appreciate the results. iwata's background includes game design, and i doubt some suit would be able to replace that kind of sensibility.

The guy backgrounds/sensibility don't matter. investors are not happy with the company performance in last years.

Investors want growth/profit and Iwata clearly failed them big time in that regard as evidence by Nintendo stock performance in recent years. He should go.

 

[mantidor]

Im not exactly sure about your understanding of the term "business model". Nintendo's business model is creating home consoles and handhelds which focus on software, not on services or standard features offered on other devices.

And well, the Gamepad isn't really anything someone asked for. It's just like a tablet, but done 10 times worse. And Miiverse is perhaps nice for Nintendo diehard fans but probably nothing that creates a lot of hype or something that would be missed.

Moving over to QoL certainly could mean a shift in the business model. Perhaps you might tell me what's that thing is actually about, I haven't seen it yet.

Then maybe I am mistaken, what is business model to you and how would you propose they change it?

Point 4 is certainly true. Nintendo has consistently developed their hardware and software with very little thought to 3rd party developers that has continued to the Wii U and 3DS. The other 3 points are somewhat true, but worded poorly. Nintendo has certainly claimed they plan on changing the model they've been working with for years now, but we;ve yet to see concrete evidence.

The Wii U is eons away from the N64 and GC. I agree they are not there yet, but things like Unity and indie support are steps in the right direction, current Nintendo is the most third party friendly Nintendo that has ever existed.

 

[Anth0ny]

The Wii U is eons away from the N64 and GC. I agree they are not there yet, but things like Unity and indie support are steps in the right direction, current Nintendo is the most third party friendly Nintendo that has ever existed.

this is saying literally nothing

 

[RurouniZel]

this is saying literally nothing

I get what you're saying with this statement, but at the same time you are also implying that any progress Nintendo could attempt in the future would literally be saying nothing either.

This could be twisted to mean "Nintendo shouldn't try because it means nothing," and while I don't think we should be throwing confetti in Nintendo's direction just yet, belittling the progress they have made isn't exactly constructive.

 

[shinra-bansho]

What's this nonsense about the PS2 experiencing massive growth and then collapsing with the PS3? The PS3 wasn't the only contender for that market over the last 8 years. People who bought the PS2 for Madden and GTA had two equally viable new routes of delivery with the PS3 and 360, and a third of PS2s sold were sold as part of the 7th gen time frame.

The situation isn't remotely comparable to the Wii or handheld collapses.

Also who gives a shit about the semantics of whether the Wii was a fad or not. Does it hurt the Wii's feelings? The reality doesn't change: the Wii's success has not been sustainable.

 

[LegendofLex]

Also who gives a shit about the semantics of whether the Wii was a fad or not. Does it hurt the Wii's feelings? The reality doesn't change: the Wii's success has not been sustainable.

Sustainable is very different from sustained.

We will never know if Wii was sustainable, because Nintendo killed off major support for the system in 2010 and executed Wii U (which, aside from name, backward compatibility, and the fact that there are Nintendo games on it, was never positioned in any way like the Wii) very, very poorly.