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Ninja Gaiden Black still the best action game

Seeing dahbomb and the rest of you argue about NGB and dmv3 really brings back fond memories.

Personally I'm a dmc3 guy, despite my love of NGB and ninjas in general.
 
See You Next Wednesday said:
The fuck?
You might be able to button mash through NG & DMC for about 5 seconds until the enemies & game mechanics kick you ass. You NEED to learn how to play them, you NEED to be able to master the moves to get anywhere in those games (except for NG3 & DmC).

With Bayonetta & apparently MG Rising, doing anything other than straight up button mashing is just for show.
So what, the games have tons of combos & moves, if absolutely none of them are needed whatsoever in the progression of the game, the game is then a button masher.

In fact times I tried varying up my attacks in Bayonetta & found that they were either less effective overall & opened me up to getting hit compared to the YYYYY combo & spamming the dodge button afterwards.
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This is one of the most ass-backwards posts I've ever seen. Classic case of projecting your personal lack of knowledge onto great games and bizarrely concluding that the games are the problem.
 
Shinobi PS2 was and still is the only game where I actually bothered to collect all the collectibles in all difficulties and beating it from normal to super mode.

I'm in love with that game so much.
 
See You Next Wednesday said:
The fuck?
You might be able to button mash through NG & DMC for about 5 seconds until the enemies & game mechanics kick you ass. You NEED to learn how to play them, you NEED to be able to master the moves to get anywhere in those games (except for NG3 & DmC).
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so spamming flying swallow all through NG like i did was apparently not allowed. huh

same goes for mashing in dmc... don't see how you're meant to do anything else as there's just one attack button
 
NGB really is a great game. Totally understand why someone would hold it as the pinnacle. The sense of weight is better than in any other game of its kind that I've played. The visuals blew my mind when the original released.

That said, I don't like the art design/direction of the game. It's awkward and just not something I enjoy in the game. It has its moments, but overall I'm not a fan.

For me personally, my favorite for the time being is Vanquish. Incredible controls and the ability to take enemies down so efficiently and fast does a lot for me. I also like that you have to push yourself to really start finding out what you can do, and not until then do you realize just how much of a badass you are.

I'm a big fan of DMC/DMC3, but I haven't played them in so long it's difficult to weigh in on how I'd feel about them now. In terms of melee-focused action games I'd go with Bayo for right now. I just replayed it and it has some of the most buttery smooth controls ever. What I don't like is how cutscenes interrupt you every couple minutes. So annoying.

I dig Shinobi for PS2, but I sucked at that game and never beat it. I didn't grow up with Shinobi/NG/Contra so it was a bit much for me. Now I'm kinda interested in revisiting. Also, I'm currently replaying it, but I feel like MGR:R is getting too much credit. I just don't see it in the same league as the above games(not counting Shinobi since I'm not qualified to say).

This all leads to the fact that I've never once played God Hand. What is wrong with me. I'm probably missing out on a game I'd love.
 
HitokiriNate85 said:
NGB really is a great game. Totally understand why someone would hold it as the pinnacle. The sense of weight is better than in any other game of its kind that I've played. The visuals blew my mind when the original released.

That said, I don't like the art design/direction of the game. It's awkward and just not something I enjoy in the game. It has its moments, but overall I'm not a fan.

For me personally, my favorite for the time being is Vanquish. Incredible controls and the ability to take enemies down so efficiently and fast does a lot for me. I also like that you have to push yourself to really start finding out what you can do, and not until then do you realize just how much of a badass you are.

I'm a big fan of DMC/DMC3, but I haven't played them in so long it's difficult to weigh in on how I'd feel about them now. In terms of melee-focused action games I'd go with Bayo for right now. I just replayed it and it has some of the most buttery smooth controls ever. What I don't like is how cutscenes interrupt you every couple minutes. So annoying.

I dig Shinobi for PS2, but I sucked at that game and never beat it. I didn't grow up with Shinobi/NG/Contra so it was a bit much for me. Now I'm kinda interested in revisiting. Also, I'm currently replaying it, but I feel like MGR:R is getting too much credit. I just don't see it in the same league as the above games(not counting Shinobi since I'm not qualified to say).

This all leads to the fact that I've never once played God Hand. What is wrong with me. I'm probably missing out on a game I'd love.
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That's one of my hangups with Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta as well. I'm not a big fan of their art styles - they aren't bad, just not my thing.
 
SixMachine said:
I mentioned it before in the thread but I think the amount of viable moves relative to the whole set doesn't break a game. Tekken is an example where there are many characters with 100+ moves but you pick out the ones that are most useful and for different situations. Fundamentals are still important which are in this case movement and defense. There's still a huge difference in skill between players even with a reduced move set.

I think in general action games always have players who "train with weights" on for a challenge or goal. By what I mean is that to make the most stylish combo in DMC it's usually not the most efficient (you can get SSS by being non-stylish and rotating between a few moves and play the game efficiently) or in God Hand the Kick me challenge wasn't required to do but players just limited themselves to no reels or god mode to keep the sign on.
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The key here, especially including FG, is about a move list with depth that may be misleading. Often moves appear to be "useless" and the most efficient moves outweigh the investment. However, in action games as opposed to FG games, you do not have an opponent. Therefore, live experimentation is welcome. You may find uses for moves that are known to be useless to most players. You may find glitches or OP tactics with those moves that you have the choice of exploiting. Not to mention situational moments in the games where you can abuse moves that maybe are mostly useless otherwise.

Though it is interesting you state the most stylish combos in DMC is not always the most efficient. Actually, it's more then often not the case. It is a hark to the impeccable balance of the titles. Most combo videos can teach, not entertain. I would not sink so much time into DMC if there wasn't means to an end when styling. Where I couldn't apply nearly all of my stylin to SP. It's one of my issues with Bayo.

Also, nobody really is mentioning one of the main set of balancing with NG. It's the environment and traversal. The move list in NG is about doing damage. It is really simple. You can use drops for invincibility frames, air escape, and mean damage. You can abuse UT with ease. However, the real strength comes with your traversal toolkit along the environments. NGB is an x/y axis title even more so then the competition. There are no long air extends and an emphasis on block. It's about playing the "game" while in combat, which is a welcome change to some. You are fighting a battle, not a rag doll. And that is why I have a huge affinity for NG.

NGB is like boxing in the ring. DMC/Bayo are like training with heavy and speed bags. Sometimes you prefer to punch somebody who can hit back. :P <3 NG2 especially.
 
See You Next Wednesday said:
Played on normal in Bayonetta & was able to spam the YYYYY combo for every enemy & every boss.
Been watching some MG Rising walkthroughs & it looks to be the same.
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It is. I didn't even have to dodge (or unlock the ability) until the final (very shitty) boss.

There really is no reason not to spam the same combo over again, unless it's to Zandatsu and recover all of your health with Blade Mode. It's not a very compelling game.
 
If we want to be reductionist, the only moves you need to beat Ninja Gaiden 1 or 2 (on any difficulty) are flying swallow (honestly optional but super useful to close space), izuna drop, the basic XXX and the UT. Nothing else. Everything else melee wise is optional.
 
zewone said:
It is. I didn't even have to dodge (or unlock the ability) until the final (very shitty) boss.

There really is no reason not to spam the same combo over again, unless it's to Zandatsu and recover all of your health with Blade Mode. It's not a very compelling game.
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Rising isn't focused on combos. Hell, you could mash the light attack 40 times in a row and it will all count towards your hit counter. Rising is more about efficiently cutting through your enemies, as well as looking for the right opportunities to use Blade Mode. If you're looking for a combo-driven game in the same vein as DMC, Rising is not that game.

Also, LOL at saying "I didn't play the game, but I watched some Youtube walkthroughs." Play the game before passing judgement.
 
Defunkled said:
Rising isn't focused on combos. Hell, you could mash the light attack 40 times in a row and it will all count towards your hit counter. Rising is more about efficiently cutting through your enemies, as well as looking for the right opportunities to use Blade Mode. If you're looking for a combo-driven game in the same vein as DMC, Rising is not that game.

Also, LOL at saying "I didn't play the game, but I watched some Youtube walkthroughs." Play the game before passing judgement.
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I know. After unlocking Ripper mode, it just becomes a cake walk of shredding enemies, zandatsu to recharge, ripper, zandatsu, rinse, repeat.

The game just wasn't for me.
 
How could anyone not like the art styles of Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta?

Bayonetta has an art style that seems to be inspired by religious and baroque art (especially the enemies) and Ninja Gaiden Black is a mesh of Japanese mythology and fantasy. Its pretty great.
 
I find it ironic that the art direction of Ninja Gaiden is garbage but Ryu's design is one of the most iconic in gaming.
 
Scoring systems can be a useful way to measure player skill and any amount of difficulty involved in getting a high score is applicable to how difficult and in depth a game can be overall. It's not just about reaching the ending credits (which itself is a binary score - 0 or 1).

Also, there's nothing wrong with comparing the difficulty of a game with the goal of reaching the ending credits, and the difficulty of a game with the goal of reaching a high score + ending credits.
 
MTMBStudios said:
If we want to be reductionist, the only moves you need to beat Ninja Gaiden 1 or 2 (on any difficulty) are flying swallow (honestly optional but super useful to close space), izuna drop, the basic XXX and the UT. Nothing else. Everything else melee wise is optional.
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Yea....... no.
 
Robot Pants said:
Yea....... no.
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If an enemy is able to be Izuna Dropped in Ninja Gaiden - not using Izuna Drop is like using a pistol instead of a rocket launcher. Your failsafe in NG is to flying swallow to close space, izuna drop, UT until you cannot UT anymore, flying swallow, izuna drop...

This is talking as someone who has beaten all of the versions of the games, on all of the difficulties. There are moves that are useful in NG1 or NG2 but nothing is necessary outside of that core loop. For enemies outside of that loop - dodgeing, looking for an opening, and doing your basic xxx combo is generally where you go.

Of course this is all being reductionist. You can find uses for most stuff - but nothing is necessary. These are amazing action games but talking about other games in hilarious reductionist terms gets you nowhere.
 
MTMBStudios said:
If we want to be reductionist, the only moves you need to beat Ninja Gaiden 1 or 2 (on any difficulty) are flying swallow (honestly optional but super useful to close space), izuna drop, the basic XXX and the UT. Nothing else. Everything else melee wise is optional.
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WRONG!
Blocking & dashing/rolling out of attacks & dashing back to flak the enemy a.i. is 90% of the game.
-Flying shallow was only broken only in the original NG, in the Hurricane packs & in Black, they fixed it where enemies would start to block it, then counter it & throw projectiles to interrupt it you when you start spamming it too much.
-Izuna Drop is a fairly complex move that is the opposite of button mashing.
-Instant UT are hard to master & you still need to manage to avoid collecting orbs & to dodge incoming enemies at the same time to perform it.

To the guy who said you can get through original DMC with just the the basic 3-4 hit combo over & over, I would like to see a video of this ANYWHERE.
At best, you would get to the very first boss somehow surviving strictly on health items before you would be completely decimated afterwards from that point on.
 
MTMBStudios said:
If we want to be reductionist, the only moves you need to beat Ninja Gaiden 1 or 2 (on any difficulty) are flying swallow (honestly optional but super useful to close space), izuna drop, the basic XXX and the UT. Nothing else. Everything else melee wise is optional.
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Lol, no. Have you even played NGB? You can't flying swallow on Master Ninja, you will get owned when you land. You can't mash your way into an Izuna Drop. The moves you are talking about are efficient, but they are not what determine whether you clear the higher difficulty levels or not, that comes down to skill and knowledge of the game. Sure you can do these things, but you would have to do plenty of dodging, OL UT, positioning, etc. to get anywhere.
 
Error said:
I find it ironic that the art direction of Ninja Gaiden is garbage but Ryu's design is one of the most iconic in gaming.
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I would say that Kasumi's and, to a lesser degree, Ayane's designs are nearly as iconic. Itagaki knows how to create attractive and iconic women video game characters.
 
Ninja Gaiden Black is the only action game where i felt a challenged and empowered at the same time.

usually with action titles theres the heightened difficulty and overwhelming odds where the game encourages your failure and to give up (DmC).

NGB was like i was in a fight... a constant back and forth... no cheap shit.

just pure action.


havent had that since... so i agree with the OP.

damn i miss itagaki.
 
I'm not sure where the person(people?) dismissing scoring systems in games went, but does anyone else agree that scoring systems are useful and should be accounted for when measuring the difficulty of a game?

Most of DMC and NG series, Bayonetta, and MGR all seem great to me. I wouldn't call any of them bad games, although they have their pros and cons.
 
Ninja Gaiden's art style is awesome. Haters gonna hate.

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I enjoy Ninja Gaiden. Only played the original on xbox and now Sigma+. Amazing battle system with nice enemy A.I. However the level design can be quite terrible (at some missions) so it is difficult for me to consider the first Ninja Gaiden the best action game. The first Devil May Cry or Viewtiful Joe will be the best action games for me. I enjoy Devil May Cry 3 for the improved battle system, but there were too many annoying backtracking parts that made me dislike that game at times. Also none of the enemies were as memorable as those from the first game (exception of that legendary twin swords boss battle).

One embarrassing confession I have is that I cant seem to get Izuma Drop to work. Then again I haven't put much effort into making the move work. However it doesn't feel necessary while playing normal on Sigma + as they throw potions like crazy at you (along with yellow orbs).
 
Half of those pics have terrible art. Generic looking ruin building with a shitty mess for an enemy design. Technically impressive for the hardware though.

There is no action game that has matched the art design of DMC1.
 
NGB's art style ranges from good/great to mediocre. The initial few levels have excellent art direction. Some of the later stuff do not.

Now DMC1 on the other hand has stellar art direction from start to finish.

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benzy said:
It seems we're the only ones who liked it. lol
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If anything, the artstyle was more "traditional," but I felt like that was part of what made it so strong. It felt raw.

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The Virgoorian Berserkers, the lesser fiend demons, the scythe demons, Alma. Those were all significantly stronger for me than anything in NG2.
 
Giant Lava Spider/Scorpion hybrid enemy is actually pretty awesome. I have no love for Nightmare's design but mechanically it does a lot of interesting things.

I love Doku and Alma's design though. I liked some of the enemies and bosses in NG2 too but some really leave you scratching your head.
 
Ninja Gaiden has fantastic art. The CG movie towards the end of level 2 still looks amazing. Alma in the church, the Egyptian ruins, Ryu's transformation into a blue fiend and his fight in the field of flowers against the Vigoorian Emperor, it's all gorgeous.

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And so does Ninja Gaiden 2. I'll never forget when I went through the underworld and wound up at the gigantic black door into hell. Then you have an entire level of living death with the whole floor flooded in blood. It's really the only thing I've seen to rival Berserk.

Even just the normal kills and eviscerations all look amazing. The blood splatter alone is art. They are some of the most gorgeous kills ever in gaming. No other game is even close.

You guys are cray.

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Even Ninja Gaiden 3 had mostly fantastic art. That wasn't the failing. Ryu looked pretty menacing, and his arm was awesome.

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