Robot Pants
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Ninja Gaiden Black still the best action game
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Unhandled Exception
Member
I agree completely with this thread title. NGB is still unmatched and gloriously so.
It was Tecmo and a team who was working long hours and was never paid millions in promised bonuses. It left them just wanting to get out whatever they could so a lot of them could leave.
I would say that this is one of the few games that implies a lot of agency and delivers on it
the moment you learn that you can run along the walls and how freely it works, you're able to immediately formulate a lot of assumptions that you can actually pursue and actually work
if that makes sense lol
one of the main reasons I like it, its a great example of how "intuitive" games can be
the moment you learn that you can run along the walls and how freely it works, you're able to immediately formulate a lot of assumptions that you can actually pursue and actually work
if that makes sense lol
one of the main reasons I like it, its a great example of how "intuitive" games can be
The One Who Knocks
Member
The bow is effective in certain circumstances but in battles the melee weapons are generally better. If you do wish to use it close to enemies the best method to use it is by getting Essence onto the field, putting some space between you and your enemies and then charging it before quickly releasing it to instantly kill one or more enemies. This isn't really effective on higher difficulties though. The best way to use it is to take care of projectile enemies from afar (the walkway in Chapter 1 followed by the corridor after it and the beginning of Chapter 8 being the two most notable instances that I can think of involving human enemies). Certain enemies are weak to it as well. In most cases though, Essence charging the bow and then chaining shots together works best.
Brofist
Member
Which of the highly regarded 3rd person action games had a "good story". Not any of the ones I played for sure.
I agree with the OP. Best action game there is.
Maleficence
Member
I didn't say any had a good story, but they're much better than anything Team Ninja can put out.
I just think there's more to games than a good combat system, silly me. Ninja Gaiden does have a great combat system, don't get me wrong, but all the dressing around that combat system is a bit shit.
It's like having a fantastic burger patty inside a mcdonalds bun with week old salad.
God, what the hell? NGB was a great adventure game, too. There was so much content to explore, and the pacing (and the constant escalation of both your enemies and environmental hazards) was top notch stuff. It's a great game.
The writing did what it had to do--set up Ryu's revenge.
TOAO_Cyrus
Member
This thread inspired me to play through NGB again over the last couple of days. Yep, still the best action game I have ever played.
You are 100% wrong. It has fantastic level design. I'd like to hear some examples of action games with better level and world design than Ninja Gaiden.
nailbombxx
Member
Bad art in Ninja Gaiden Black? Where?
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Not really.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
The game is a mess aesthetically. It's really just garbage.
Art direction has never been a focus for Itagaki's games at Tecmo and it really shows. Maleficence's statement is 100% valid
I'd argue Bayonetta(in both overall plot and art direction) and DMC3 destroy everything they've ever put out in that regard. Maybe DMC1 to some extent.(definitely in terms of artistic direction and design)
but I don't really want to get into it with the WHO NEEDS STORY IN THESE GAMES crowd. No interesting dialog to be had there.
Even without Itagaki's influence they put out Ninja Gaiden 3, which was supposed to focus more on its narrative elements.
and....yeah....
Paladin CL
Member
I have to agree with the OP, Ninja Gaiden Black is still the best action game for me.
I don't know why some people have problems with its art style, but I remember the first time seeing ninja Ryu in his skin-tight leather suit - that felt like next level shit; I wasn't ready for it and thought it was one of the coolest character designs at the time
It doesn't fit together aesthetically, but I like most of the art design
It doesn't fit together aesthetically, but I like most of the art design
Betrayer of hope
Banned
My personnel list of action games starting from the best to the last
Devil may cry 3 SE
Metal gear rising
bayonetta
Ninja gaiden black
Devil may cry 4
Devil may cry 3 SE
Metal gear rising
bayonetta
Ninja gaiden black
Devil may cry 4
SnakeLinkSonic
Member
Having played MGR now (I admit, only 2 levels) it's not anything like Ninja Gaiden, which is about deliberate gameplay, or DMC which is about making creative combos etc.
If I had to compare MGR to something it would have to be God of War for it's huge amount of QTEs. Most of the attacks feel like they do nothing at all, and when going into blade mode it's just straight up spammy. Not to mention mashing the X or Y buttons is completely safe because you can cancel your recovery into a parry which is almost as automatic as Metroid: Other M.
I'm not particularly hating on the game, but it's combat doesn't touch the kind of design DMC or Ninja Gaiden have. Much less Bayonetta which successfully managed to combine the two. That being said, even though it's not for me, the action cutscenes are exciting.
At least it's 60fps. =)
I'll have a go with this:
Ninja Gaiden Black - Zone of the Enders 2
Bayonetta
Devil May Cry 3
Ninja Gaiden 2
Devil May Cry 4 - Shinobi PS2
(Castlevania, DMC1, God of War 2/Chains of Olympus)
(PSO2, Demon's Souls)
Metal Gear Rising
EDIT: Before I get a bunch of complaints, this list in order of their combat, not overall package. Otherwise Demon's Souls and Castlevania would definitely be higher than NG2... PSO2's combat is awesome and probably better than DM4's but its enemies kinda ruin the whole thing.
If I had to compare MGR to something it would have to be God of War for it's huge amount of QTEs. Most of the attacks feel like they do nothing at all, and when going into blade mode it's just straight up spammy. Not to mention mashing the X or Y buttons is completely safe because you can cancel your recovery into a parry which is almost as automatic as Metroid: Other M.
I'm not particularly hating on the game, but it's combat doesn't touch the kind of design DMC or Ninja Gaiden have. Much less Bayonetta which successfully managed to combine the two. That being said, even though it's not for me, the action cutscenes are exciting.
At least it's 60fps. =)
I'll have a go with this:
Ninja Gaiden Black - Zone of the Enders 2
Bayonetta
Devil May Cry 3
Ninja Gaiden 2
Devil May Cry 4 - Shinobi PS2
(Castlevania, DMC1, God of War 2/Chains of Olympus)
(PSO2, Demon's Souls)
Metal Gear Rising
EDIT: Before I get a bunch of complaints, this list in order of their combat, not overall package. Otherwise Demon's Souls and Castlevania would definitely be higher than NG2... PSO2's combat is awesome and probably better than DM4's but its enemies kinda ruin the whole thing.
I don't understand how MGR is similar to those either.
But including ZoE2 broadens what I mean by combat. I should have been more clear. It's combat is well done, whether strictly hack and slash or not. MGR is more similar to Tenchu than NGB.
nailbombxx
Member
I don't know about that. From my memory, a lot of the enemies and bosses had really cool designs.
But you're looking at these titles based on combat, and there's no way that ZoE2 does anything remarkable combatwise in the same vein as the other titles in your list. It's a phenomenal game, but it doesn't belong there... and certainly not at the top of the list. I disagree with a lot of other things in your choices, but those are more subjective takes.
MGR is above ZoE2 for the parry system alone. The higher difficulties have shorter parry windows. I'll certainly agree that Normal is too easy.
Host Samurai
Member
I think I like Ninja Gaiden 2 more than Black.
-Enemy design
-Level to level
-More interesting locals
-weapons
-Blood fountains
Yeah Ninja Gaiden 2 was fantastic (As was Ninja Gaiden 1/Black)
-Enemy design
-Level to level
-More interesting locals
-weapons
-Blood fountains
Yeah Ninja Gaiden 2 was fantastic (As was Ninja Gaiden 1/Black)
leaves thread
OreoKraickerz
Neo Member
This thread inspired me to pick up NGB last week. I played NG years ago but only finished it on Normal. Finished NGB on Normal last night (started a Hard run immediately after) and while I didn't spend much time with DMC3 SE (only finished it on the default difficulty; I'll go back to it soon) I did finish Bayonetta on NSC and I'd have to agree with the OP that NGB is top of the heap.
I rarely felt challenged in Bayonetta or that I had to put thought into killing enemies. I appreciated Bayo's smooth difficulty curve but NGB was more challenging and more satisfying overall, even on Normal. Every enemy encounter in NGB is like a puzzle that you need to figure out how to solve most efficiently. And every enemy encounter can really ruin your day if you slip up. Absolutely loved it and I can't wait to tear through it again on the next three difficulty levels
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I rarely felt challenged in Bayonetta or that I had to put thought into killing enemies. I appreciated Bayo's smooth difficulty curve but NGB was more challenging and more satisfying overall, even on Normal. Every enemy encounter in NGB is like a puzzle that you need to figure out how to solve most efficiently. And every enemy encounter can really ruin your day if you slip up. Absolutely loved it and I can't wait to tear through it again on the next three difficulty levels
or more realistically, for the game to tear through me
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Okay, so this thread really motivated me to get into Ninja Gaiden. I plan to pick up:
-Ninja Gaiden Black
-Vanilla Ninja Gaiden 2
-Completely skip Ninja Gaiden 3
Am I doing it right? I have every console, so exclusive versions are not a problem.
-Ninja Gaiden Black
-Vanilla Ninja Gaiden 2
-Completely skip Ninja Gaiden 3
Am I doing it right? I have every console, so exclusive versions are not a problem.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I'd say the sigmas are worth a punt, but only once you have completed the originals on MN
and NG3:RE is worth a shot too when it comes down in price.
It felt hollow. The bosses were not as good.
ZOE2 brings in another "axis" for action combat. Enemies are commonly above and below you, usually around you which brings in a new dynamic to the combat. Game also features multi-lock projectiles where you can shoot multiple targets at once. Position based attacks are also a big deal as you can toss enemies up, down or away making them hit the environments for more damage. Grabbing enemies and environment parts is also a big part of the combat plus you can grab stuff from far away with the Wisp (pre-alpha Devil Bringer). It also includes stuff like Buffering and charged attacks. Let's not forget that it has the best teleport system in any action game yet.
So yeah ZOE2 brings a lot to the table that many other action games do not. It doesn't have the depth of the top tier action games but it has a unique flavor to it that should be experienced by all who are fan of the genre or fans of mecha action.
So yeah ZOE2 brings a lot to the table that many other action games do not. It doesn't have the depth of the top tier action games but it has a unique flavor to it that should be experienced by all who are fan of the genre or fans of mecha action.
Lostconfused
Member
Yeah that's not happening, at least for me. It took 21 hours to beat NGB, at least according to the game clock. But on the other hand, I am having a lot more fun with Ninja Gaiden 2. The game might have lost some of the spirit of NGB by throwing more enemies at you that are much easier to kill and making the combat a lot faster. But on the other hand I am also having a lot more fun with it.
Edit: Although the bow sucks, holy crap. They should have just cut it from the game.
CadetMahoney
Member
I'm well aware of all of those things, though I'd argue that the introduction of an "axis" is certainly at the compromise of gravity and physics... it's different, but not necessarily deeper. And most of the things listed are present in other action games in some capacity.
And by best teleport system, you mean brainless and broken? But Zero Shift is hella fun still, the point being to make you feel powerful and untouchable. It succeeded in that respect. The entire game was amazing. I enjoyed the combat in ZoE2 immensely, and it was an enormous step up from ZoE. I just don't think it belongs in the same list as the other top tier action titles. I don't think it really brings that much more to the table considering that
I'm playing MGR on Hard atm.
Disagreeing is fine with me but, MGR's Parry System is something I just don't understand...
Parrying in DMC4 was ~1-frame.
Countering in NGB/2 was lenient but you had to block an attack first and you couldn't parry all of them so there was a risk, not was it invincible until NG2.
I've been playing MGR on Hard and parrying is spammable and actually has basically no risk because it simply can't be done unless an enemy is attacking (unlike NG/DMC). I just move my controller towards an enemy and rapidly press X when they glow... I mean, it's more lenient than Batman: Arkham Asylum even.
I really don't understand MGR at all being on these lists. ZoE2 has a form of parrying which, while doesn't impose much risk 'cause the game is easy, it's less lenient.
For me personally, the reason why I prefer NG over DMC is strictly because I like deliberate control being essential. DMC doesn't require you to do anything more than mashing but there's reward there in it's point system. MGR doesn't really award me for being careful, especially since every enemy so far is pretty much an HP potion.
That being said I'm still on my way through, but unless the fact that I'm playing MGR after having played so many other action games makes it dry and easy, I don't see what MGR does better than DmC's demo in terms of combat.
I honestly just don't understand why MGR's lenient parrying gives it anything dodging in all other games doesn't give. Explain it's system to me, I could just be abusing it or missing something.
EDIT: Just to be clear, I've played each of the games above on their hardest difficulties and I know DMC needs more than mashing on DMD etc. but great combat and difficultly do not go hand in hand. NGB is a great game even on Ninja Dog -- the system is still there.
Well, on harder difficulties MGR's parry becomes less lenient. And a near perfectly timed parry can reward you with a chance to instant kill most enemies.
The tradeoff between a parry and a dodge is that the parry, if timed right, can result in massive damage. But the dodge has some invincibility frames, does a quick hit on an enemy, and you can resume a combo after the dodge.
Thanks, I can understand more why that would feel great and rewarding. Kinda like Demon's Souls parrying in a way eh?
How much harder is it to do on difficulties after Hard? or is a perfect parry the same regardless of difficulty?
Keep in mind that my point about MGR was in comparison to ZoE2 specifically. I never said MGR's combat is deeper than DMC (classic series) or NG because it's not.
What I love about the game is that the parry is the block. No other game has implemented this in the same way. The entire game is centered around the parry mechanic, and I think it's remarkable. There's no persistent block, but rather you have to press an input to block every attack. I really like it, and I think that it lends itself to more skillful play than ZoE2. There's no way it's more lenient than Batman Arkham Asylum. The mere fact that you have to press a direction nullifies that point.
There's also Dodge Offset in MGR and Blade Mode canceling in MGR. These are techniques that offer new options to a creative player.
MGR is much faster than DmC. Even if simply through visual feedback, it's faster. I've played both.
And if we're qualifying ourselves, I've also beaten DMC1/3/4, NGB, and NG2 on the hardest difficulties. Again, I'm not arguing that MGR is deeper than any of those games per se. I was more speaking to ZoE2. My other subjective disagreements had to do with the order of the other titles.
I'm almost certain perfect parries are much harder to do on the higher difficulties. I don't think it's DMC Royal Guard strict, but it's still harder.
It seems like the perfect parry window is pretty small on Very Hard and Revengeance. I didn't really notice it until I went back to normal and was magically a parry god.
Thanks for answering my question quickly.
Okay, sorry.
When I consider a game's combat I think about the risk and reward between the player and the enemy, kinda like a fighting game. It could just be a case of Hard on MGR limiting the offense of its AI, which would make a lot of sense, but right now the feedback I get from MGR isn't so great.
To do this comparison properly I'm going to look at a couple of high level play I can find on YouTube: http://youtu.be/N2qt2YC7Mps?t=3m38s <- possible spoilers
I've seen more than just him fighting these enemies and it looks no different to how I play on Hard. Of course the enemies as he says can OHKO you but that's not really important. What is important is the fact that everything in between a parry or blade mode is just spam, and whether parrying is difficult or not, there's not so much depth in this combat system.
Now for ZoE2, I mostly put it sitting next to NGB because if we weren't limited to H&S games, I'd say it probably offers the best experience of them all. It's boss battles are well above what the other games offer but for standard combat: http://youtu.be/1rEuvLLUhTA?t=40s
In ZoE2 the amount of positioning that you need to do is actually quite similar to NGB in a way. If you try to do a certain attack that has long recover or such you need to, almost instantly, judge the distance between you and the next opponent. There's a lot more that's deliberate other than simply hacking until there's a change to parry.
Anyway what makes ZoE2 isn't about difficulty and such, it's how to makes the player feel with it's almost perfectly designed combat whilst not at the same time not allowing the player to spam. Pretty much what makes NG2 not as good as NGB is because it feels "unfair" many times with the bow attacks and incendiary shurikens, making certain strategies impossible by chance -- it's not about how large of a command list or how difficult a game is that makes it have good combat.
Well, Revengeance difficulty is a little unique in that the perfect parry does ridiculous damage. Moreso than in any other mode. It's a questionable design choice to me, personally. There are some balance issues concerning the weapons, but I don't think they break the game.
Like I said, there are techniques like Dodge Offset and Blade Mode canceling. Between parries, I don't just spam. You can juggle and aircombo enemies. You can sweep them to interrupt their attacks. You have options at your disposal. There's not the same number of sheer options as the other games that you listed, which is why I don't necessarily think that MGR necessarily has the same level of depth as those, but parrying is an incredibly satisfying thing to me. As I said before, I adore the blocking mechanics in MGR because it dedicates what would ordinarily be a button hold to an actual move. For some reason, I find this mechanic hugely rewarding on the higher difficulties.
The point is that you qualified ZoE2 next to NGB specifically because of combat... ignoring other aspects of the games according to the preface. Opinions and all that, but I just can't fathom that to be true. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I watched that ZoE2 video and it doesn't look any different to how I would approach it on Normal, albeit with a bit more care. It looked a lot like kiting and herding.
For the record, I adore the bosses in ZoE2, but they're rarely combat focused. Most of the time, there's a trick to disarming or stunning them. It's not about reactions, moveset, and mobility, but figuring out the trick to beating them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I much prefer combat based bosses.
Anyway, I think you need awareness of your enemies and your surroundings in MGR as well. And enemies are a lot more aggressive on the higher difficulties.
I think agreeing to disagree is a good idea. I'm only including MGR because I don't see how it compares with the others, and if it does, then I think if the genre should be so broad ZoE2 should also be included.
Anyway I think it should be said that MGR has more options than NGB -- and Bayonetta has probably the most amount of options of all. More options is nice, but it doesn't really equal depth.
TBH in NGB you only need reverse wind, Izuna Otoshi/XXY, dodge and guillotine throw/flying swallow, and UT. So that's one attack, one kind of jump, dodge and one ait attack, even on Master Ninja Mode. That, I think, is the reason why not everyone thinks NGB is still the best action game (bringing back relevance to this thread). It just does those small things well.
GoW2 would have been a much better game if it just limited how many times you could grab. =)
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
Yes. I'd skip NG3:RE too though. Other than that, this is exactly what I would recommend.
I'm not trying to say that ZoE2 shouldn't be included as an action game. I'm saying that for me, it's not as good an action game, combat-wise, as any other title in your list.
I think NGB has way more options than MGR. Each separate weapon has an expansive moveset. There are ninpo and throws as well.
EDIT: You're right. I kinda forgot NGB had many different weapons each with their own play styles.
EDIT2: Damnit this game is not for me. I can't bear to complete it. To each his own. This is the most button mashing H&S game I've ever played. It needed less enemy HP. Anyway thank you both GuardianE and Sephzilla for the insight and answering my questions.
AgentOtaku
Member
lol, truth
Less HP? If anything, everything died too soon for my liking until very hard. I would really recommend finishing the game at least once before dismissing it altogether (you did mention that you were only two missions in).
Rhazer Fusion
Member
NG Black had the most diversity, polish and great gameplay.
NG2 has the best gameplay though. It's deeper than some fighting games. Imo, no action game plays better yet.
NG2 has the best gameplay though. It's deeper than some fighting games. Imo, no action game plays better yet.
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