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[SilentRob]

They're going through with that vertical slice concept? Oh dear...

No. They are using what they learned by producing the vertical slice for the production of the full game.

As you do.

 

[Markitron]

Basically the game is entering full production.

You would have thought it would either be close to or in full production since it's announcement. It's been a year, did they start pre-production after the announcement I wonder.

 

[Carl]

So Ninja Theory don't know what "afresh" means

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

You would have thought it would either be close to or in full production since it's announcement. It's been a year, did they start pre-production after the announcement I wonder.

The whole point of their transparent dev process on this game was to start talking about it publicly at the earliest possible stages.

So Ninja Theory don't know what "afresh" means

Yup. They could have avoided this whole thread with a single word choice.

 

[Crossing Eden]

A lot of games are pre-alpha a year from release.

Furthermore, pre-alpha means you haven't reached alpha. So pre-alpha is a correct denomination for something that is 2 weeks, 3 months or 4 years in its dev cycle, or anywhere in between.

Pre-alpha isn't being warped, it is, again, misconception from gamers on the internet who think they've got all figured out and "pre-alpha" footage cannot be qualitative or beautiful or polished but has to be ugly whiteboxes with no anims, bad lighting and half features missing. When it can be anywhere in-between.

Exactly.

You would have thought it would either be close to or in full production since it's announcement. It's been a year, did they start pre-production after the announcement I wonder.

A year for pre-production isn't out of the ordinary, and yes they did start pre-production before the announcement since they had stuff like concept art, a debut trailer, timelines, basic prototypes etc.

 

[Cyber Caesar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-YsBhZUDQ

I went back and watched this video again. In this footage it's not easy to see Senua jump back or combat roll. I like the ground combat though. I wonder what happens when there is more than one enemy on screen. I would look at God Hand and try to polish it gameplay wise.

I would imagine variety will come when it comes to upgrades, weapons, armors, earned special abilities etc. Hellblade is a great looking game.

I don't like the female narrator at the beginning, she sounds like a child. She seems very wise, yet the voice of a child seems contextually inappropriate. She might grow on me once I get some background info... Edit: I think Senua's voice is fine though.

 

[Harlequin]

^I'm not sure if they're even planning on having more than one enemy on-screen at a time. They're definitely going more for fewer, more meaningful encounters than for hordes of enemies constantly assaulting you.

 

[mckmas8808]

^I'm not sure if they're even planning on having more than one enemy on-screen at a time. They're definitely going more for fewer, more meaningful encounters than for hordes of enemies constantly assaulting you.

That's good actually.

 

[Skele7on]

Please quote those pictures they're HUGGGGE

 

[Caronte]

I'm not sure I get it. Why not make another Vertical Slice that feels good before moving on to production?

 

[inky]

I'm not sure I get it. Why not make another Vertical Slice that feels good before moving on to production?

Money?

 

[KiraXD]

i wasnt a fan of fixed camera, Infinity Blade battles.

Hopefully they can make combat as fun as DmC/Heavenly Sword or even Enslaved... but whatever they were doing with this game before was balls.

 

[jmaine_ph]

Please quote those pictures they're HUGGGGE

How do I do that?

 

[benicillin]

I dig the concept so whatever helps them make a great game. I'll keep it on my radar for sure.

 

[inky]

How do I do that?

put them inside quote tags

 

[Sword Of Doom]

I didn't think it looked that bad. I'm surprised that most people thought the gameplay in Scalebound looked good on the other hand when it looked so boring to me.

The game looked different and interesting. Hope they don't play it too safe now

 

[Harlequin]

They posted a new development blog post to clarify the current situation:

Whoops! We caused a bit of confusion today with the following tweet:

Ordinarily, the development process is undertaken under a veil of secrecy and both the public and press are hidden away from progress until the last 3 months of development. Whereas we are showing how things develop from the very beginning, and the process we go through to final game.

So here is where we are at:

Way back, I covered the broad phases of production we work by:

• Concept Phase – The idea behind the game with supporting art.
• Prototype Phase – Experimenting with game mechanics, art styles, processes.
• Vertical Slice – A small section or two of the game that brings together the prototypes into a demo that looks like a finished game (but obviously isn’t a finished game).
• Consolidation – We take a month out to simply plan the approach, scope and build the pipelines needed to make the full game.
• Production Phase– This is where we put our heads down and make the bulk of the game. By the end of this, the whole game is playable from start to finish. We have just begun this phase.
• Polish – This is where we nail down the story, VO, cutscenes, as well as playtesting the hell out of the game to give the best possible experience.
• Mastering – Bug-fixing, optimization, platform compliance.

The vertical slice is an industry-wide practice that serves to explore ideas and test them out to see if the game you have designed on paper works in practice. Once a vertical slice is complete, we take time out to consolidate our findings and plan the rest of production.

We have completed our consolidation phase and just begun production of the game proper. So what happens to the vertical slice once you start production?

You throw it away. Always.

There are hundreds of questions that really can only answered by actually building it and testing your assumptions. But if there is one assumption you can bank on, it’s that your assumptions will mostly be wrong.

So you start a vertical slice accepting that what you build will not make it into the final game but that the knowledge you gain will allow you to make the game.

Right now, we all in full production on all fronts and will probably cover the areas we are tackling in the next diary or two but here’s a few highlights of what we are doing:

Rebuilding and extending combat – the combat in the VS was focused on areas which were new ground for us such as directional combat and the ground-based injured combat. We are now rebuilding the combat engine to better handle future expansion into a broader set of combat actions and deepening the system we had prototyped thus far.

Rebuilding and Improving Senua – While the opening cinematic of the VS showed we could create our own performance capture set up and shoot in it, we think we can do better with the actual Senua model. She is the heart and soul of the game and we felt she wasn’t quite as believable as we intended. We have experimented with some innovative scanning technologies and new improved facial systems as well as remodeling and retexturing her in far more detail.

Improved World – In the VS the atmosphere and world you navigate in was one of the highlights. So we feel we can invest further in this area and make more of it. We are now building large chunks of the game with this in mind working on both grey-box gameplay levels and much improved art style maps.

More at the link: http://www.hellblade.com/?p=18267

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Why wouldn't they show a game in open development early, why wouldn't people understand that what's being shown is a work in progress?

Part of the point of the project was to be as open as possible about development so others could learn from it.

Ah, fair enough - I didn't know that was the intent. I just don't like hearing about games so early in advance. I should probably stop paying attention to this game altogether until they're ready to talk about release dates or launch trailers.

Update: looks like we misinterpreted things

What was in the original tweet? They must have phrased it oddly for us all to think they meant they were re-starting production altogether.

Never mind, they seem to have deleted the tweet but have posted an image of it in the production update in the comment above. Was definitely misleading the way they phrased it, but I guess it makes sense that a vertical slice demo would be scrapped as full production goes ahead.

 

[Carl]

What was in the original tweet? They must have phrased it oddly for us all to think they meant they were re-starting production altogether.

It's in the OP...

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Shiiiiiiit.

I played this when I visited the studio and I really liked what I got to do - granted it was an early build but it was solid: felt like Soul Calibur's battling in a Dark Souls kinda format

Man, I hope this still goes ahead. Love the studio, and I think Tameem is a really smart and forward-thinking guy

Tameem can't seem to grasp the feel of good gameplay, whether it's level/mission design, button assignment or character movelist.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Tameem can't seem to grasp the feel of good gameplay, whether it's level/mission design, button assignment or character movelist.

DmC kinda disproves this claim, that also implies that Tameem is making games all by himself. Which is quite far from the reality. It's also quite hard to claim that they couldn't grasp good gameplay or level design when we've barely seen both, especially when you're replying to a positive impression.

 

[UltraGunner]

Maybe they should ask Itsuno for help again.

 

[Elixist]

i liked alot of what i saw, camera was weird tho.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I just couldn't get into the lead character.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

That doesn't sound great. Hopefully it makes for a better game in the end, but it also sounds like a slippery slope that can end up in the game just being cancelled at some point.

Wait what?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Wait what?

People misunderstood the statement and interpreted it as a bad thing that they're throwing the vertical slice demo out. :/

 

[Papacheeks]

People misunderstood the statement and interpreted it as a bad thing that they're throwing the vertical slice demo out. :/

So the combat we saw, is that staying?

 

[Stormblessed]

They really need to ditch the over the shoulder camera, it pretty much ruins the combat by itself

I don't think the unusual camera necessarily dooms the game - Godhand was great and its camera wasn't really standard for the genre - but I don't think Ninja Theory have the chops to make it work. They needed Itsuno's team to explain basic action game design to them, so they can't be anywhere near ready to go experimenting or toying with convention.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Somebody really needs to give the guys at Ninja Theory a Dictionary. "Afresh" does not mean what they think it means...

 

[Crossing Eden]

So the combat we saw, is that staying?

If not there should be something quite similar.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-YsBhZUDQ

I went back and watched this video again. In this footage it's not easy to see Senua jump back or combat roll. I like the ground combat though. I wonder what happens when there is more than one enemy on screen. I would look at God Hand and try to polish it gameplay wise.

I would imagine variety will come when it comes to upgrades, weapons, armors, earned special abilities etc. Hellblade is a great looking game.

I don't like the female narrator at the beginning, she sounds like a child. She seems very wise, yet the voice of a child seems contextually inappropriate. She might grow on me once I get some background info... Edit: I think Senua's voice is fine though.

God hand had very agile character movement and very snappy moves, this is neither, this is super sluggish.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

DmC kinda disproves this claim, that also implies that Tameem is making games all by himself. Which is quite far from the reality. It's also quite hard to claim that they couldn't grasp good gameplay or level design when we've barely seen both, especially when you're replying to a positive impression.

Itsuno and Capcom oversaw DmC and still it was nothing close to DMC1, 3 & 4.

Look at the footage, the combat right now isn't even good enough to be called mediocre, they need to rework the combat before building a game around it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Itsuno and Capcom oversaw DmC and still it was nothing close to DMC1, 3 & 4.

Look at the footage, the combat right now isn't even good enough to be called mediocre, they need to rework the combat before building a game around it.

They visited the studio once a month over a period of three years, in terms of development NT did the absolutely majority of the legwork for the game. People seriously need to stop trying to pass on the narrative that Itsuno and Capcom consulting once a month is the reason why the game turned out that way and that NT had nothing to do with the positives. And the footage is a vertical slice prototype that's basically a concept of the what the full game is supposed to achieve. Nothing there was final enough to give a good indication of the game's quality.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

They visited the studio once a month over a period of three years, in terms of development NT did the absolutely majority of the legwork for the game. People seriously need to stop trying to pass on the narrative that Itsuno and Capcom consulting once a month is the reason why the game turned out that way and that NT had nothing to do with the positives. And the footage is a vertical slice prototype that's basically a concept of the what the full game is supposed to achieve. Nothing there was final enough to give a good indication of the game's quality.

What is it trying to achieve? Because the vertical slice is pretentious crap (you don't need a 2 minute cutscene that doesn't tell you jack when you're trying to let people know what you do in your game) that has shit combat. It doesn't have to be final, it has to represent something meaningful, game mechanics that work, a variety of things you can do, combat that is engaging (which wasn't, things like how one would block or counter or backstep or dodge), that what they're building isn't total shit, and the vertical slice basically failed to do that.

 

[Crossing Eden]

What is it trying to achieve? Because the vertical slice is pretentious crap (you don't need a 2 minute cutscene that doesn't tell you jack when you're trying to let people know what you do in your game) that has shit combat. It doesn't have to be final, it has to represent something meaningful, game mechanics that work, a variety of things you can do, combat that is engaging (which wasn't, things like how one would block or counter or backstep or dodge), that what they're building isn't total shit, and the vertical slice basically failed to do that.

The purpose

The vertical slice is an industry-wide practice that serves to explore ideas and test them out to see if the game you have designed on paper works in practice. Once a vertical slice is complete, we take time out to consolidate our findings and plan the rest of production.

We have completed our consolidation phase and just begun production of the game proper. So what happens to the vertical slice once you start production?

You throw it away. Always.

And people have seen and played the full vertical slice demo that is likely way more coherent than a b-roll. If game developers spent all of their dev time fleshing out every single one of the mechanics of a vertical slice than nothing would get done. And evidently you haven't read the thread because now that full production is starting the plan is this.

Right now, we all in full production on all fronts and will probably cover the areas we are tackling in the next diary or two but here’s a few highlights of what we are doing:

Rebuilding and extending combat – the combat in the VS was focused on areas which were new ground for us such as directional combat and the ground-based injured combat. We are now rebuilding the combat engine to better handle future expansion into a broader set of combat actions and deepening the system we had prototyped thus far.

Rebuilding and Improving Senua – While the opening cinematic of the VS showed we could create our own performance capture set up and shoot in it, we think we can do better with the actual Senua model. She is the heart and soul of the game and we felt she wasn’t quite as believable as we intended. We have experimented with some innovative scanning technologies and new improved facial systems as well as remodeling and retexturing her in far more detail.

Improved World – In the VS the atmosphere and world you navigate in was one of the highlights. So we feel we can invest further in this area and make more of it. We are now building large chunks of the game with this in mind working on both grey-box gameplay levels and much improved art style maps.

Nothing "pretentious" about that demo btw, that word gets misused way too often when something is visually interesting and thought provoking.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

The purpose


And people have seen and played the full vertical slice demo that is likely way more coherent than a b-roll. If game developers spent all of their dev time fleshing out every single one of the mechanics of a vertical slice than nothing would get done. And evidently you haven't read the thread because now that full production is starting the plan is this.





Nothing "pretentious" about that demo btw, that word gets misused way too often when something is visually interesting and thought provoking.

Except it's neither visually interesting nor thought provoking, just pretentious, the long cutscene didn't provide much of a context for the gameplay which followed.


Nothing worked in that vertical slice, even the most basic combat mechanics weren't particularly sound, didn't look fun at all either, so wtf are they going to be fleshing out in full production? If you're testing out whether what you have done so far is shit or not, keep it internal and in this case they should go back to prototyping, they don't even have the basics down.

 

[PaulloDEC]

Itsuno and Capcom oversaw DmC and still it was nothing close to DMC1, 3 & 4.

Look at the footage, the combat right now isn't even good enough to be called mediocre, they need to rework the combat before building a game around it.

I find it amazing that there are people still pushing this dumb angle. Something good about DmC? Oh yeah, the guys from Capcom did that. Something bad about DmC? It came directly from Tameem's poison pen!

Except it's neither visually interesting nor thought provoking, just pretentious, the long cutscene didn't provide much of a context for the gameplay which followed.

I thought it looked visually interesting and thought-provoking, but then I'm not the kind of person who immediately dismisses things as being "pretentious" when they try to do something different.

Nothing worked in that vertical slice, even the most basic combat mechanics weren't particularly sound, didn't look fun at all either, so wtf are they going to be fleshing out in full production? If you're testing out whether what you have done so far is shit or not, keep it internal and in this case they should go back to prototyping, they don't even have the basics down.

Or maybe they learned a lot from the vertical slice and now have a better idea of how to move forward? i.e. the vertical slice did exactly what it was intended to do? Who knows.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Except it's neither visually interesting nor thought provoking, just pretentious, the long cutscene didn't provide much of a context for the gameplay which followed.


Nothing worked in that vertical slice, even the most basic combat mechanics weren't particularly sound, didn't look fun at all either, so wtf are they going to be fleshing out in full production? If you're testing out whether what you have done so far is shit or not, keep it internal and in this case they should go back to prototyping, they don't even have the basics down.

In your opinion it's not visually interesting. Also here's a news flash, we didn't see the full cutscene. Do you not know what a b-roll is?

I like how you're stating things about a game you've never played that is directly contradictory to impressions of those who have played it. Not to mention, they do have the basics down
-basic combat that can be expanded
-a good idea for storytelling with the environment, the performance capture, and how Senua reacts to things
-a good idea for the type of atmosphere they can achieve with UE4

Your entire argument seems to come from a misunderstanding of how a vertical slice is supposed to work and the fact that we've only seen a b-roll of a demo instead of the full one itself.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

I really want to play this, I hope it goes well.
Despite being 'teh kiddie', Disney Infinity 3's jedi stuff is fun & fluid as heck.
Kinda wish they were given a big boys Star Wars game.

 

[Bear Force One]

I really want to play this, I hope it goes well.
Despite being 'teh kiddie', Disney Infinity 3's jedi stuff is fun & fluid as heck.
Kinda wish they were given a big boys Star Wars game.

THIS! Ninja Theory shines on DI 3.0.

 

[HeelPower]

Yay! Game officially in the development hell phase!

Seriously though,at least its a tiny team with a small budget as opposed to Square Enix fucking around for 5 years with a development team of 300 and $$$100 million

 

[autoduelist]

So the combat we saw, is that staying?

Who knows? You take what you learn from a vertical slice (both good and bad) and evolve from that. If they didn't quite like how certain aspects of combat worked, they can now fix that. Vertical slices allow you to 'throw things at the board' and see what sticks... and get rid of what doesn't.


As for people complaining about cutscenes, etc... during early phases you could effectively have some dude in the office 'voice' all the characters in a monotone just for testing purposes -- you're not generally trying for polish.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

In your opinion it's not visually interesting. Also here's a news flash, we didn't see the full cutscene. Do you not know what a b-roll is?

I like how you're stating things about a game you've never played that is directly contradictory to impressions of those who have played it. Not to mention, they do have the basics down
-basic combat that can be expanded
-a good idea for storytelling with the environment, the performance capture, and how Senua reacts to things
-a good idea for the type of atmosphere they can achieve with UE4

Your entire argument seems to come from a misunderstanding of how a vertical slice is supposed to work and the fact that we've only seen a b-roll of a demo instead of the full one itself.

Are you saying there's more to the cutscene than the boring 2 minute waste of time that was the "b-roll" cutscene? Let's make this shit even longer.

Let's look at the basics:

Cutscene: confusing mess, don't know wtf story you're trying to tell
Combat: clunky, no real variety in terms of combos, didn't show any kind of viable dodging mechanics, hit animations seemed off, no real counters or parries, same enemy over and over but they couldn't even show a different way of dealing with him
Level design: linear

So no, they didn't have anything down.

Not the best idea to go with full production when they need to go back to the drawing board and get SOMETHING right in a prototype.

Unless the purpose of the b-roll is the take the worst shit in the demo and put it all into one video, there's a very good chance this so-called "vertical slice" probably isn't very good.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Are you saying there's more to the cutscene than the boring 2 minute waste of time that was the "b-roll" cutscene? Let's make this shit even longer.

Let's look at the basics:

Cutscene: confusing mess, don't know wtf story you're trying to tell
Combat: clunky, no real variety in terms of combos, didn't show any kind of viable dodging mechanics, hit animations seemed off, no real counters or parries, same enemy over and over but they couldn't even show a different way of dealing with him
Level design: linear

So no, they didn't have anything down.

Not the best idea to go with full production when they need to go back to the drawing board and get SOMETHING right in a prototype.

Unless the purpose of the b-roll is the take the worst shit in the demo and put it all into one video, there's a very good chance this so-called "vertical slice" probably isn't very good.

Cutscene: establishes tone more than anything and gives a good idea of how good their cheaper performance capture technology is. But ofc i'm sure we'd all love to sit through two minutes of exposition explaining everything because the plot is finished and this segment is from the full game. /s.

Combat:Completely unfinished and full of placeholder assets, again, it's to get a general feel for everything, you don't know anything about how it feels because you haven't played it, meanwhile, here's an impression from someone who has

I played this when I visited the studio and I really liked what I got to do - granted it was an early build but it was solid: felt like Soul Calibur's battling in a Dark Souls kinda format

All animations are unfinished placeholders btw.

Level design:is not linear, the game has exploration, to the point where in early testing phases people got frustrated since they got lost.

As it stands now, everything they have down right now is a solid base and was a good learning experience to move forward with the full game, otherwise, they wouldn't be moving forward with full production.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Cutscene: establishes tone more than anything and gives a good idea of how good their cheaper performance capture technology is. But ofc i'm sure we'd all love to sit through two minutes of exposition explaining everything because the plot is finished and this segment is from the full game. /s.

Combat:Completely unfinished and full of placeholder assets, again, it's to get a general feel for everything, you don't know anything about how it feels because you haven't played it, meanwhile, here's an impression from someone who has



All animations are unfinished placeholders.

Level design:is not linear, the game has exploration, to the point where in early testing phases people got frustrated since they got lost.

As it stands now, everything they have down right now is a solid base and was a good learning experience to move forward with the full game, otherwise, they wouldn't be moving forward with full production.

The combat looked nothing like Soul Calibur or Dark Souls, that's like saying shit sort of looks like a cross between venison and steak.

Unless all they do is make fucking placeholders, the bones of the game just doesn't look very good, you can have textureless white box levels with "placeholder" enemies that show better gameplay than this.

 

[Krappadizzle]

I'm glad they are gonna start "afresh" after what they've shown it wasn't very engaging. I'm super interested in a game exploring mental illness as my mother-on-law has schizophrenia and some of the things she'll say or do are just....I don't know the proper word...but crazy. She's had conversations with God, experienced extreme paranoia with really specific detail. She once told me how when she went to the dentist on April 14, 1983 the government installed tracking and monitoring devices in her teeth. Just all kinds of odd behavior. I'd love to see a game that explores those themes and topics to maybe give me a bit of insight from her perspective.

The combat looked terrible, especially coming from them doing so well with their previous titles. The combat they showed reminded me of Infinity Blade.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The combat looked nothing like Soul Calibur or Dark Souls, that's like saying shit sort of looks like a cross between venison and steak.

Unless all they do is make fucking placeholders, the bones of the game just doesn't look very good, you can have textureless white box levels with "placeholder" enemies that show better gameplay than this.

Yes, all they've had shown so far is WIP, do you honestly expect final assets to be made this early? Before full production? Here's what DmC looked like a year before release while the game was in full production. Compare that to how it looks in the final game, it's quite ugly, that's the point. Again you haven't played it, so how would you know what the combat feels like compared to those who have?

Here's more
Even at this early stage, Hellblade feels like a confident, exciting and ambitious take on a genre that has always felt at home on PlayStation.

. I only played a short section of Hellblade but it looked great, offering mystery and teeth-gritting fights. Combat is tough and tense, and has that same sense that one simple mistake can cost you your life that you find in the Dark Souls games. There’s no hack-and-slash button mash here; it’s an early build but seems to reward timing and precision, where you watch patterns to push the slim advantages that open up in your favour.

I enjoy the focus on one-on-one combat, which restricts the camera and brings it in tighter because you, as the player, don't have to protect ya neck worry about additional enemies coming in from all sides. In combat there is a quick evade, block (and parry), and a few strikes. Combat feels well weighted. A successful block still feels perilous, as it should with sword just inches away from killing out bangs on your own steel with force.

Notice how they're talking about plenty of stuff that we haven't seen, like puzzle solving.

 

[GuardianE]

"Afresh" is probably poor choice of words by Ninja Theory.

 

[Crossing Eden]

"Afresh" is probably poor choice of words by Ninja Theory.

Yes, it was.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Yes, all they've had shown so far is WIP, do you honestly expect final assets to be made this early? Again you haven't played it, so how would you know what the combat feels like compared to those who have?

Here's more
Even at this early stage, Hellblade feels like a confident, exciting and ambitious take on a genre that has always felt at home on PlayStation.

. I only played a short section of Hellblade but it looked great, offering mystery and teeth-gritting fights. Combat is tough and tense, and has that same sense that one simple mistake can cost you your life that you find in the Dark Souls games. There’s no hack-and-slash button mash here; it’s an early build but seems to reward timing and precision, where you watch patterns to push the slim advantages that open up in your favour.

I enjoy the focus on one-on-one combat, which restricts the camera and brings it in tighter because you, as the player, don't have to protect ya neck worry about additional enemies coming in from all sides. In combat there is a quick evade, block (and parry), and a few strikes. Combat feels well weighted. A successful block still feels perilous, as it should with sword just inches away from killing out bangs on your own steel with force.

Dude it's a fucking promotion piece, wtf did you expect them to say?

I don't get why you're defending a shitty demo like this, I would like the game to be good but it just doesn't look very good right now.

Everything is WIP until release, I'm simply commenting on the current state, being WIP doesn't mean it'll turn out just fine, because lots of games don't, especially ones from studios that can't even put out a decent looking demo.